Inversions, insides, atomics, oh my!

rev -- doh. i forgot to refresh before i replied. wow you posted a bunch that seems to say exactly what i said.. i see what you're saying about insides and why your spectra are semi-contradictory, but any chart that has 3 optional arms on each sides is hopefully a LOT more confusing than what i wrote... not that i think there's anything wrong with confusing myself and others. i do it all the time. lol. thanks man.

-- dut

Richee-
I hate to be an @$$ mate... But not no but hell no...

1- a buzzsaw is spinning with two planes facing each other... Buzzsaw is not just a move that is in the center of the body.. By your reasoning, a wallplane weave isn't a weave because a weave is a move done from side plane to side plane..

Take your buzzsaw... Move it left until the right hand is past the left side of the body.. Now bring it down... Now flip the pole... Check it out.. Those are the two buzzsaws between the left outside and left inside planes.. Tada..

2- inversions are not between two planes.... I don't know what crack your smoking... This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say there are valid descriptions that lead to invalid results...

3-FYI- to isolate is to move the center of rotation to a point on the string.. The degree of isolation determines when, where, and how much force there is during the swing... So you don't always feel a pull throughout the swing of the poi... I'm not saying there isn't pull, obviously the poi is still swinging... I'm saying you don't feel it..

Sorry richee man.. Try and read some of my posts.. Or ask some of the other people if I type too cryptic... Right now your just skimming them and its leading you to problems.. So far you've been refering to insides and buzzsaws as inversions in your posts... So i don't think you're on the same page as the rest of us...

Dut- here is hope this helps you

Outside- string string arm arm (body)
Inside- arm arm string string (body)
Halfinside- arm string string arm (body)
Buzzsaw- arm string string arm

Richee-
I hate to be an @$$ mate... But not no but hell no...

1- a buzzsaw is spinning with two planes facing each other... Buzzsaw is not just a move that is in the center of the body.. By your reasoning, a wallplane weave isn't a weave because a weave is a move done from side plane to side plane..

Take your buzzsaw... Move it left until the right hand is past the left side of the body.. Now bring it down... Now flip the pole... Check it out.. Those are the two buzzsaws between the left outside and left inside planes.. Tada..

2- inversions are not between two planes.... I don't know what crack your smoking... This is precisely what I'm talking about when I say there are valid descriptions that lead to invalid results...

3-FYI- to isolate is to move the center of rotation to a point on the string.. The degree of isolation determines when, where, and how much force there is during the swing... So you don't always feel a pull throughout the swing of the poi... I'm not saying there isn't pull, obviously the poi is still swinging... I'm saying you don't feel it..

Sorry richee man.. Try and read some of my posts.. Or ask some of the other people if I type too cryptic... Right now your just skimming them and its leading you to problems.. So far you've been refering to insides and buzzsaws as inversions in your posts... So i don't think you're on the same page as the rest of us...

Dut- here is hope this helps you

Outside- string string arm arm (body)
Inside- arm arm string string (body)
Halfinside- arm string string arm (body)
Buzzsaw- arm string string arm

Buzzsaw doesn't have body included because body is irrelevant..

String arm string arm = nothing.. This is just a variation on outside.. This is what happens when we thread either in a weave or in a ttn..

String arm arm string = nothing.. This is just a reel... This is alternating planes.. Same whether outside and outside or outside and inside..

Email me sometime... You can ask me more specific questions.. And I can respond faster than these boards... It takes forever for them to load..


So does someone want to volunteer to help richee out (I'm tapped on explanations and don't really know how to explain things further and my posts are too long) and tomorrow we can move on to the fun stuff..

i lump the "buzzsaw" and "non tangled insides" in with inversions, and i think you are putting it as inside, which i fully understand, as they could be seen either way. try this for me... do an bfly airwrap into and out of each of these different areas of the spectrum, and tell me if the math translates through to your definitions; i put them in my way because of the way the airwraps mirror each other with the entrances and exits (ok that's an oversimplification but let's see if it works). maybe after i read all this about 8 more times i'll see your reasoning and change my mind, esp. once i get the coding with that arm/in/buzz spectrum stuff. until then, again, i'm glad someone besides spiral is understanding me and thanks for the help.

Rev - Ok, just for you:

I saw it that way. There is ONE buzzsaw plane going throught the body. And two inverted a side still betweed the hands. If you change your position into wall plane you can add inside plane and outside plane (I can inmagine inside plane staing in wheel plane(betweeen hand and inverted??) ). So now?

saw this:

http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4186

light,

:R

wow.

the bay doors are open people...

==============================================
quick clarification first:

Written by: rev

---

half insides.. Those are a vague area, which is why I replaced them with buzzsaws in the second diagram.. Essentially you only have outside and inside planes.. If you take the left outside plane and drag it towards the right, it stays outside until it crosses the midpoint on the body, then its inside on the right half...

---

did you miss a bit off the start that says "keep the right poi in the right outside plane."?
if you didn't miss that bit off and it means exactly what it says, it would suggest that once a left poi goes anywhere to the right of centre, it can only be in an inside (or halfinside/buzz) plane which doesn't make sense to me.
the clarifying question i guess is: when the left poi is on the right hand side of the right arm, is it still classed as an inside by you or is it perfectly acceptable to say that in this case, the left hand poi is in the right side 'out' plane?
==============================================


right, now i hope this doesn't confuse matters (i'll delete this if it turns out to be contradictary) but...

poles - i consider that there is one for each poi and that they point perpendicularly outwards from the centre of each circle, away from the hand.
from that basis, i've been defining my planes by what the pole for that poi points towards:

Written by: coleman's head

---

if the pole points to no objects, its an outside plane.
if the pole points to an object but is not restricted by that object, it is a buzzsaw plane.
if the pole points to an object and is also restricted by that object, it is an inside plane.

there is a special case of insides that when both poi are in inside planes at the same time, you have an 'inversion'.

---

'turning a hand over' (usually but not necessarily initiated by moving from an 'own side' outside plane to any other plane will switch a poi's pole direction.

i think these definitions fit with rev's except possibly that last one as it includes both rev's definition of inversions and the extra stuff that i consider to be inversions too like barrel rolls and such (which i think is the same as arashi's larger definition of inversions).


and so, onto the meaty bit...

Written by: rev

---

Either arm can go in place of the arm sections.. This is from left to right.
Out|Arm|half|Arm|in|Body|in|Arm|half|Arm|out

Thus the buzzsaw spaces become like this:
Out|Arm|buzz|Arm|in|Buzz|in|Arm|buzz|Arm|out

---

i think that the full spectrum listed like this may be slightly confusing as it attempts to emcompass all the possible planes for both arms at once.

the options listed there are only available at certain times and are not mutually exclusive.
e.g. to make one of the 'in' planes available to the left hand poi, we require an overlapping of planes (opposite facing poles 'overlapped' [crossed over] so that they face away from each other) which means the right poi has to be in the left side 'out' plane to create the space for the 'in' plane.

i think rev's 'arm' terms are an attempt to make this clearer and i hope you all notice that what i'm saying above is not a disagreement with the theory at all - i'm just stating that we can't expect everyone to learn from the full spectrum as it has so far been discussed (because it requires fairly detailed prior knowledge of which planes are and are not mutaually exclusive in order to make any sense of it).


at first, i wasn't entirely sure how to make it clearer (and less ambiguous) for everyone, but i have a fairly solid idea now i think...

produce a full set of 'plane transition spectra' that clearly show what dictates which of the planes in the full spectrum are available to spin in at any particular time.

i think this is what rev was doing when he talked about 'collapsing the spectrum' - right rev?
this is essentially adding boundary conditions for a poi and showing how the spectrum reduces for the other poi in that case.

by writing the spectra in this way, we can go on to create a series of interdependent plane changes using the spectra to show us what is available and when.

rev gave a reduced (collapsed) spectrum for the weave, but i propose to go a step back from that, so that if you define the position of one poi, you can immediately refer to the relevant 'plane transition spectrum' which would then tell you which planes are selectable next.

in this case the full spectrum would in fact be two spectra; one for each hand:

[out<|buzz<|in<|buzz<|buzz<|>out]R

L[out<|>buzz|>buzz|>in|>buzz|>out]

as you can see, there is no need for 'arm' or 'body' terms now as the | represents a possible arm position and the > shows where there is a pole direction restriction.
this also negates the requirement of using the 'half inside' term in order to be complete.
the < and > are not strictly required in the spectra as they do not change - they are only shown in the full spectra here for reference.
in all subsequent diagrams a || is used to show the point where a pole switches for that hand occurs.

i have a more detailed explanation available for this additional notation if its needed


*deep breath*


okay, to make sure this is all consistent with what you guys are thinking, here are a couple of examples that show my current understanding.
they also give some example boundary conditions and discuss the implications of those on the spectra - can someone mark my work please?

plane transition spectra, example 1
if the right hand poi is in a plane to the right of the centre, the side 'buzz' planes are what were being referred to as 'half inside' planes.
if we take this further and specify that the right poi is say, the right side outside plane, we can show precisely which planes are available to the left poi:

boundary condition is 'right poi in right side OUT plane'; the available plane spectrum for left poi becomes L[out||buzz|buzz|buzz|out]

or we can just write the full spectrum for the right poi (with a bold bit showing the plane we are choosing to currently spin in), and the corresponding left poi's reduced 'plane transition spectrum', showing which planes it is possible to place the left poi in next:

[out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R ==> L[out||buzz|buzz|buzz|out]


plane transition spectra, example 2
the left side 'in' plane can only be occupied when the right poi is in a plane to the left of that plane (which, by exclusion, can only be either the left side 'in' or left side 'out' planes):

boundary condition is 'left poi spinning in inside plane i.e. left side in plane occupied':

L[out||buzz|buzz|in|buzz|out] ==> [out|in||out]R


and finally...

we can use the available plane selection spectra with set boundary conditions that i mentioned above to produce a sequence of linked plane spectra that show a progression of planes changes and the options available at each stage.
the plane chosen in each step (shown in bold) dictates what planes are available for the next step.
in each case the bold plane shows which plane of the available ones we have chosen, which in turn, dictates the next spectrum and so on...

as an example i'm going to use the forwards 3bt inside weave.
if you understand this and want a bigger example, i have the spectra sequence for a notcoleman5 waiting here...
direction is strictly not necessary but since i have specified forwards for this example, i have used capital letters define to designate which arm is on top (again, not strictly required without notation for turns but it makes following the sequences much easier at first):

start with boundary conditions of poi spinning on own sides in wheel plane:


1: [out|buzz|buzz|buzz|out]R (right poi spinning in right side outside plane)
2: L[out||buzz|buzz|buzz|out] (left poi spinning in left side outside plane)
3: [out|buzz|buzz|buzz||out]R (right crosses over to left side outside)
4: L[out||in|out] (left passes through inside to right side outside)

5: [out|buzz|in||out]r (right spinning in left side outside)
6: L[out||buzz|buzz|in|buzz|out] (left spinning in right outside)
7: [out|in|buzz|||out]R (right passes through inside to left side outside)
8: l[out||buzz|in|out] (left spinning in right side outside)
9: [out|buzz|in||out]R (right spinning in left side outside)
10: L[out||in|out] (left passes through inside to right side outside)

13: [out|buzz|in||out]R (right crosses over to right side outside)
14: L[out||buzz|buzz|buzz|out] (left crosses over to left side outside)


repeating steps 5 to 10 equates to spinning a 3bt inside weave.


this example demonstrates that using this method we can notate any possible combination of plane transitions in wheel plane, including repeatable moves and transitions between moves.

can i have a lolly now please

you may notice that certain rules impose themselves e.g. "two same side outside beats in a row either demands a swap of which arm is on top or a turn" (there are lots of these rules that present themselves, but i won't write them all out for now).
(note these are not beats in the normal sense - they are more like 'half beats' in that there is a separate beatcount for each hand; hence six steps for a 3bt weave)


well, that all took a while.

i warn you, i will come back in a few hours and check my notation examples to make sure they are right but i think you should all get the idea of what i'm trying to do here.
once we are all used familiar with the plane selection spectra, we can get rid of them and just notate the plane being changed to for each beat which would give us a lovely new notation system for poi.
i didn't expect that


bom shiva


cole. x

i'm truly sorry - that is a monster post

three additions to these already complex concepts all in one post was possibly not the best idea ever...

still though, if no-one can be bothered to read it, i'm sure i'll spew it all out in dribs and drabs at some point later.

if it stands up to the scrutiny of you's guys it may well deserve a thread of its own anyway...





cole. x

Cole : tooooo much oopos. Define pole with not more than 30 words?

I look on it like parallel planes layer DE PLANE. It means:

------------------------
------------------------

Body wheel plane:

Outside < "Normal"(half inside) < Inverted < Buzzsaw - central plane> Inverted > "Normal"(half inside) > Outside.

http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4186

Now count: 7

----------------------------------------

Body wall plane:

Outside < Halfinside < Inverted < Inside< (BTN) > Inside > Inverted >
Halfinside > Outside

http://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4198

Now count: 9

------------------------------
-------------------------------

Now compare. I can see most of them are the same, "normal",
inverted, halfinside, outside and they are, because its one layer
system.
Olny those inside I forgot is in wheel plane missin.

Where are they Rev?

:R

Ok, this is getting far too much like Dirac bracket notation for quantum mechanics. I am officially scared.

but once you get used to the coleman exclusion principle for plane transitions ( ) it'll all reduce down to a sequence of lin/lout/rin/rout/buzz/lbuzz/rbuzz terms.

anyway, dirac was cool


cole. x

cole- yes on most all of what you are talking about
arashi- I can see where you would want to call buzzsaws inverted.. I guess that's what people mean by uncrossed inverted.. but I guess that's where we differ.. I mean you see where I'm coming from and I see where you are coming from.. whihc is good. but I just don't like the idea of calling those inverted just because of the sheer confusion they cause... like an offcenter barrel roll buzzsaw vs an inversion (by my definition)

cole- that's a lot of info there man.. and what I can follow (its hard to read on this little screen) works..

the only thing is.. if you want plane changes.. are you referring to something like this..
here's the spectrum :
Lout|Lbuzz|Lin|Buzz|Rin|Rbuzz|Rout
this plane -(can go)> to this plane
Code:

---

Lout-> Lbuzz
    -> Lin
    ->Buzz
    ->Rbuzz
    ->Rout
Lin-> Lbuzz
   -> Lout
   -> Buzz
   -> Rin
   -> Rbuzz
Rin-> Rbuzz
   -> Rout
   -> Buzz
   -> Lin
   -> Lbuzz
Rout-> Rbuzz
    -> Rin
    ->Buzz
    ->Lbuzz
    ->Lout

---

the buzzsaws can obviously go to any plane..

The reason I like the idea of collapsing the spectrum is because the buzzsaw that occurs in the side planes.. is the same as the buzzsaw that occurs in the center plane.. so its like a universal mover.. the idea is that
out->in (of the same side)
or out->out
in -> out (of the same side)
or in -> in

what I meant in my other post about dragging the outer plane across is this..
Code:

---

      |   R->
     body

as you drag that the poi  facing the right outer plane to the left it becomes inside

R->   |
    body

---

I see where that would be confusing for you mate.. half inside is between the arms.. and facing the body.. thus presents your confusion.. I guess the underlying assumption that I didnt add was that for half insides both poi have to be in the same hemisphere (half of the spectrum).. in the example above I was only talking about one poi... but if you added a second poi.. then it would only be half inside if the left arm was in the left half, and in between the right and body..
what I was trying to get at is that its the same pole... just different orientation.. if that makes sense..
so in order to understand where you can go (and this goes for any pattern not just inversions and what not) you look at where the flipped pole positions are.. Whihc I think is what you were getting at with some of you stuff up there.. right?

so Lout flips to either a Lin or a Rout..

now cole could you please clarify why you don't have the full spectrum listed for either hand? because any hand can go into any of the planes in the spectrum.. I'm not sure if I might have said something wrong or not..

Cole - Right I was thinking Pole is space between two planes

Rev - You are good

light,

:R

hey rev

the reason i missed those planes out of the spectrum is because i've never spun in them

i can't spin a full circle in the position you describe above (right poi in left side buzzsaw plane, pole facing right) - my arm gets in the way

i made a video showing the six planes i can get my right poi into: moving pictures of coleman - rite klik say vas - tis a massive 30meg for just 1m45s

it shows the right poi spinning in the following planes {pole direction}:

left out {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

left buzz {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

left in {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

buzz {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

right buzz {left} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

right out {right} : [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

then my attempt to get into: left buzz {right} : [out||buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

i put my left arm over to the right at the end and i think that may be what you mean by right poi in the left inside plane {pole facing right} : [out|buzz||in|buzz|buzz||out]R
but i think that is equivalent to right outside: [out|buzz|in|buzz|buzz||out]R

then theres a bunch of other stuff: 3bt weave ( ), 3bt inside weave/3bt buzzsaw weave, some notcoleman5's, 3bt inverted weave, static plane 3bt weave.

by the way, this is the first ever video of me on t'internet and i know its sh!te but i reckon its for a good cause


rev, if you have a video of you spinning in the plane you describe above that would be well handy cos i can't imagine where or how it fits...


cole. x

cole-

the planes is equivalent to the outer plane.. but what makes it not the outer plane is that its on the left half... if you really want to get technical, there are only outside planes.. a left outside plane on the right half of the body is a right inside.. and a right outside plane on the left half of the body is left inside... but in order to really see why we give them special notice is to spin wallplane..

do a weave that goes from the outer plane to the inner plane (wallplaned.) no big deal right... ok... now I want you to adapt that to side planes.. I talked about this back in like forever long ago when I first started coming to this site, and I mislabelled it a 15 bt weave or something.. because what I did was 1/2 5bt weave (Rout -> Lout) then a 5bt weave (Lout -> Lin -> Lout) then the other half of the 5bt (Lout -> Rout) then finished with another 5bt weave (Rout -> Rin -> Rout) the reason I bring this up is because I think when you are misunderstanding what I say when I say bring the plane over.. though the way you are trying can be done too.. I am refering to the right poi facing the right outside but actually Lin.. as it does in the Lin part of the weave that goes from Lout -> Lin -> Lout... now, you can face it the way you want to.. the best way to see how that can be done is to take and spin the right poi in the rear plane.. (like you would with a btb butterfly..) and bring that forward, until you are spinning in the inner front wall plane.. your hand doesnt change how it faces, or even how its turned.. unlike the way I described just now with they weave..

this is infact a variation on how I teach inside weaves... I teach inside weaves using outside planes.. like this..

stand normal.. you are going to spin a weave normally.. BUT you are going to turn your torso (not your feet) so that you spin behind you all the time..
for example.. turn your torso facing the right side plane.. and begin by spinning the poi in the left side plane (thus rear left plane relative your torso) as you make your transition, turn your torso so that you are facing the left side plane while spinning in the right side plane.. (and thus rear right plane relative your torso)... try to spin low, and keep turning your torso to keep yourself facing away from the plane the poi are in..

the next step is to slowly pull this motion tighter and tighter.. in other words you want to bring the planes over until your right side plane is now on the left sid e( and thus a left inside plane) and the left side plane is brought over enough to where it is on the right side ( and thus a right inside plane) and the result is a weave that goes from inside to inside..

now I'm probably jumping the gun with that... because that weave is very awkward to do.. but I suck.. so others probably can pick it up pretty easily.. I had to get really comfortable with my inside planes before I could though..

the best thing I can suggest: learn your wallplanes.. its a simple 3 point spectrum.. it will teach you ALL the inversions.. and each direction.. and its what you will be doing on either side of the 7 point spectrum.. and also practice it all with the corkscrew.. because if you point a cork axis down (hands down) then you are doing a outer to inner plane weave.. so if you want just work on pointing a corkscrew down on either side of you..

you should pick up on all this pretty quick.. when you think you've got a hang on it.. I'll show you the different ways to get the 4 1rst degree inversions (if that term confuses you, don't think on it too hard.. it'll get explained soon enough).. those are the main ones.. and probably for the most part the only ones we will use for quite a while.. and I've got a really good pattern that makes use of all 4 of them..

wish I could see your vid.. damn I can't wait until next week..

i cant get your vid to play cole (think its something to do with this computer rather than a problem with your vid) , and i think that would have explained the bits of this im not quite sure about. namely, the difference between all the buzzsaw planes that are next to each other. but i understand what your aiming at and its sounds good

Vid is worky, Cole drinkin bear and some demonstrative stuff

nice stuff in there coleman.. I sould be getting acam at some point for the the |s| vid so I'll try and make a clip of all the planes.. if you don't have one by then..

Im waiting Rev, I find you

:R