Forums > Social Discussion > animal rights

Posted: 14th Mar 2007
my views are slowly changing about the meat i eat but my views on testing remain the same, those animals are bread in that environment for that purpose. i DON'T agree with animal testing for things like cosmetics or perfumes but DO think it's ok if it can cure desieses etc.

Posted: 14th Mar 2007
I have such confusing mixed up veiws on this, and I am not sure where I stand.

I don't think eating meat is wrong, it is natural but I dislike the meat industry massively and as a result try and lead a vegitarion diet when possibly..although i admit I am lazy with it sometimes.

As for cosmetics ...I am against the use of animal testing on cosmetics allthough I again probably contradict myself because whislt i try to buy make up not tested on animals i must admit some of it I am not to sure of, as with many products i hae..and I hate the idea of medicine testing but I appriciate that it is nesscary.

I hate talking about my veiws on stuff like this because I am largely a walking contradiction. I will be all like I am against testing this that and eating this that..yet will still eat meat and i sometimes don't check things are not tested on animals before i buy *sigh* I am trying to better this lately..it is just hard.

Posted: 14th Mar 2007
You guys should check out Penn & Teller's show on showtime called Bullshit, they did an episode about PETA that does pretty good at talking about these issues..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY

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Posted: 15th Mar 2007
When I say I am against animal testing I deffenetly wouldn't say I am for Peta either.

Posted: 15th Mar 2007

 Written by:

You guys should check out Penn & Teller's show on showtime called Bullshit, they did an episode about PETA that does pretty good at talking about these issues..

Would that be the same Bullshit (such an apt title) which has also exposed myths such as 'passive smoking' 'global warming' and 'recycling is good for the environment'?

Penn Jillette is paid by the CATO Institute - the same ultra-right wing free market advocacy lobby group which funds other high profile nutcases like Fred S Singer who also conveniently happen to act as shills for the tobacco and oil industries who fund CATO...

I've only seen those three episodes of Bullshit - but they're about as honest as [Old link].

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Posted: 15th Mar 2007
They've since withdrawn the passive smoking statement. They said that the documents that policy was based on at the time were flawed but better evidence has emerged since.
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Posted: 15th Mar 2007
I never said they weren't biased. Obviously they are when they're doing a show about PETA while wearing all leather, eating ribs, and feeding chicken to chickens.

That said, just because you may not agree with who they're tied to doesn't mean you should just not listen, how about putting up arguments and discuss the issue at hand?

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Posted: 15th Mar 2007
i'm against animal testing, because i have seen what some of these animals go through...there was a protest because the medical college here still uses dogs in their labs
all animals should be treated kindly even the ones i end up eating

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Posted: 15th Mar 2007
Food? Yes

Cosmetics? No

Drug testing? Yes

Posted: 15th Mar 2007
We have a lot of animal rights activists here in Oxford because there's a huge new animal testing center being built here. The images are very evocative but I think the ethical standards that a test must achieve are much higher now. I think animal testing for drugs is necessary. We've seen several arson attacks, death threats e.t.c and as a result several key animal rights activists are now banned from coming within 100 metres of the new lab.

i really think the standards in the food industry could be improved though. I believe in eating animals sure but live exports? and the way chickens and turkeys are reared is wrong. The things that are done to squeeze 20p off the price. I think that in time these conditions will improve.

Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

Posted: 16th Mar 2007
We have a few animal rights activists were I work to, and the security do a great job of keeping them away. I think their time would be better spent outside cosmetics manufacturers rather than Pharmaceuticals, but then I suppose that would be enforcing my views and not thiers. Freedom of speech etc.

What really makes me laugh is the fact they come to our site, booing and hissing, and yet... there are NO animals where I work. Infact, the only drugs administered are to people are in the Clinical trials unit... The only place I've tested on animals is at University... I'll point this out to the protestors next time they shout "SHAME ON YOU" at me.

Theres a few more threads already discussing animal rights... I just can't find them

Posted: 16th Mar 2007
Don't forget to tell them they better walk home, wouldn't want to use fossil fuels... Those poor dead dinosaurs

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Posted: 16th Mar 2007
i feel violated!!!

i got a phone call offering me some work on sunday night, so today (monday 16th) i turned up in cambridge to meet some random person that would take me meet a few other people and take them all to the site once the paper work was done.


anyhooo long story short, the people i started work with including me where all sacked in the afternoon the reason i'm not to bothered is because the building site i was working on was building an animal reasearch facility.

it was only half built but knowing that was ghoing to be the use of the building was pretty dark.

Posted: 19th Mar 2007
damn hippies........lol
We wouldn't be where we are today if it wasn't for animals. The medical industry, the food industry, the cosmetics industry (lol). We can thank cattle for all the agriculture, then turn em into steaks to complete the process. Cattle aren't ever gonna go endangered so why not butcher a few million? These conservationist hippies need to focus on the species that actually need conserving. Go hug some trees in South America and leave us rationally thinking adults alone! lol

Posted: 20th Mar 2007
sweet to know that I'm not the only one looking for that script: "how to make friends online"

Certainly we do have (ab)used animals to get where we are today. A huge part of our society and culture is based upon blood.

But maybe it's time for reconsideration?

I wanted to point out the history of horses, their living and working conditions, shortly before engines were invented, but the online-research takes more than I got at hand.

However: I do think that

- an animal has emotions and thoughts, dreams and many other features, similar to man

- (domesticated) animals have greatly contributed to the evolution of mankind, as sources for food and labour

- it greatly depends on the conditions under which animals are held. I believe that an animal has got the (same) right (as much as the the average Joe) to at least be kept and killed in a way that doesn't completely deprive it's dignity

Personally I regard it a sign of maturity to waste some thoughts (between Sirloin and T-bone) about WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING. It certainly is no "hippie-issue" and foremost not childish, vice versa I would claim.

I am afraid, that all the "rational thinking" adults will only realize what was truly going on, by the time their kids have to swim to school.

[sarcastic statement:] First we liberated slaves, then we liberated women, next will be animals and last (but not least), man will liberate himself...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 20th Mar 2007
thats even more outspoken that anything i would put (that's not been removed by mods)

Posted: 20th Mar 2007
What? Why? Where?.... What (bad) did I say (again)?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 20th Mar 2007
man i do not have time to type up all i think here at the moment (lunch break) but i will soon.

for now,

i do not eat animals - for MANY reasons.
cosmetics no, medicen - yes, when all other methods and options open have been exhausted.

in a nut shell.

meh.

Posted: 20th Mar 2007

 Written by: FireTom


What? Why? Where?.... What (bad) did I say (again)?

I think it was probably referring to the post immediately before your post, as that was a bit aggressive/trolling, whereas your post seemed totally OK.

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Posted: 20th Mar 2007

 Written by: pythonjosh


damn hippies........lol
We wouldn't be where we are today if it wasn't for animals. The medical industry, the food industry, the cosmetics industry (lol). We can thank cattle for all the agriculture, then turn em into steaks to complete the process. Cattle aren't ever gonna go endangered so why not butcher a few million? These conservationist hippies need to focus on the species that actually need conserving. Go hug some trees in South America and leave us rationally thinking adults alone! lol

reminds me of the simpsons when lisa go's veggy and they show her that film about bovine university

Posted: 22nd Mar 2007
missed out on that one - is there a title so I find it on youTube?

Thanks, Dave - what a relief... almost got paranoid

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 22nd Mar 2007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pll9RaP7A8

this is the episode but it dosn't show the video i'm thinking about

Posted: 22nd Mar 2007
that episode was funny, although raised points about journalistic bias in reporting (even if it is sponsored by the meat industry) all the kids picking on lisa and calling her stupid for being veggie.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

Posted: 22nd Mar 2007
There you go Brittle, pages full of HoPpers opinions on animal testing:



[url=https://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=discussion&Number=366381&Forum=f20&Words="animals"&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=366381&Search=true&where=sub&Name=&daterange=0&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post366381]https://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...rev=#Post366381[/url]



If you do a search you'll find other discussions on eating meat vs vegetarianism/veganism, and animal rights in general.
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2007
"liberated women"?

Food: Yes
Medical/Drug: Yes
Cosmetic: No


I love Penn Jillette and Rudy Teller, and since I know them through two very good -and unassociated with one another- friends, I am going to refrain from comment except to say he is not on an agenda payroll. He has *always* been that outspoken and held those opinions...*ALWAYS*.

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Posted: 23rd Mar 2007
I remember when i did this sort of discussion at school i said 'if animals were meant to were make up, it would be sold in pet shops' whihc sums up my view of animal cosmetics testing! Altough you can get 'nail varnish' for horses hooves which is supposed to have the benefits of regular hoof oil while also looking colourful/sparkly/whatever which i dont object to (the outside of the hooves are as dead as fingernails, its certified non toxic, i cant see it couls cause harm even if i horse could eat it (i know ive consumed a fair amount of nail varnish and ive come to no harm) and it genuinely cannot smell worse or more chemically than a lot of non cosmetic hoof treatments)

For medical research i think it is acceptable to use animals if there is no other practicable solution, the most important thing is the way those animals are treated - do they have food, water, space, comfort, a proper environment, companionship (human, conspecifics or other species they can get along with), in short they should be well cared for pets (but not necessarily 'spoilt' or pampered - my dog sleeps on the sofa but i wouldnt demand that all dogs in medical research had sofas to sleep on, but a nice basket with blankets etc definately) but they are also used for research which should be done as humanely as possible and the animal should feel as little discomfort and suffering as possible. Same applies to animals used for psychological research - well treated pets who run through mazes, or press levers or whatever.

Meat eating is a more tricky subject. I am not vegetarian, and i doubt i ever will be, but i do not like the thought of animals which go on to become meat being abused. The way animals in the meat industry are treated is horrendous and for no good reason. As far as possible i buy meat and animal products which have not been treated badly - there is a range (albeit a limited one) of products which meet criteria set out by animal welfare/farming agencies to ensure the animals have a good quality of life and are killed humanely, and there is no comparison - the quality of the products in this range is far better (thinking of the eggs - the yolks are a richer yellow, the flavour is stronger, they keep better, the shells are tougher - all the good things you need in an egg!) And i also prefer to buy meat from local butchers who sell locally produced meat and again the quality is superior in every way. Actually, on the way to the stables i go past a small herd of cattle (one bull, three cows, two bullocks) and i am 99% sure the bullocks will become the meat i will buy and i am looking forward to it - grass reared, very happy content little cowlet = incredibly tasty beef! Some people think its weird that i wouldnt mind knowing the animal i am eating or thinking of the meat as the animal it once was (again that simpsons episode when lisa says 'whats the difference between this lamb and the one that kissed me?' when she was eating dinner after having been to a petting zoo) but i dont think its weird, as far as my mum and i can work out it is because we are country people and accept that animals become food and better animals become better food and better animals are that way because they are better kept. many people get to the idea that meat was once an animal (not an easy cognitive leap given the sterile, packaged all cleaned up way meat is presented in supermarkets which is where most people do all their shopping) and are either freaked out and become vegetarian (lisa simpson) or think 'oh well its only animals, they dont count' - and these views can become very extreme (like the 'meat is murder' type diehard vegetarians or the processed meat industry that feed animals to herbivorous animals!) but there is a line in the middle where eating meat is seen as acceptable, natural and palatable and the animals are seen as living creatures that should be properly treated and everybody wins because the animals have a nice life and you get a nice meat at the end of it! halal meat is good - to be truly halal the animal must have a life free of undue suffering and be killed humanely, it is not perfect (barn chickens for example - better than battery hens but not as good as free range outdoor hens) but a good attempt, however even this is going downhill as the market becomes more focused on profit and less on the religious aspect.

Sorry this is a much longer answer than was probably necessary, certainly longer than most others here, but i like to be thorough and its five thirty in the morning and i have nothing else to do (ok, except bed but thats not fun)

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Posted: 23rd Mar 2007
about the whole respecting what you eat thing, I do the same and try to only by meat and animal products that come from good sources and are reared free-range/organically. I agree, happy animals taste loads better!

But I know it's also hard to find reputable sources when some farms and slaughterhouses will only adhere to the minimal possible standards to be classified as 'organic/free-range/halal'. I've heard some reports about Halal slaughterhouses where practices were not much better than the regular kind in terms of preventing suffering. Same for supposed 'free-range' hens that are still kept in the minimal space required, indoors, with minimal sunlight.

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Posted: 23rd Mar 2007

 Written by: The Tea Fairy


I've heard some reports about Halal slaughterhouses where practices were not much better than the regular kind in terms of preventing suffering.

I've heard it's worse.

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Posted: 23rd Mar 2007
But now doesn't it all go together again? (I like it when similar topics are shedding light on the core from different angles [sic] )

How much and how far does the consumer bear responsibility for this?

Animal rights need to be enforced on a different level - IMHO. This is why and what we got a government for.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 23rd Mar 2007
Well, personally, I feel responsible to do what I reasonably can to ensure that what I eat was not subjected to what I consider to be unnecessary cruelty. In practice this isn't always easy - I read a lot of packaging, keep an eye on the media and use the net to find out about the standards that must be met by free-range/organic products (and where possible which farms and suppliers adhere to these). I use local markets and butchers and ask lots of questions about where my food comes from. I don't see any reason why other consumers cannot also do this if they feel inclined to, it's quite satisfying to really engage with what you eat.

It would be nice if animal rights in the farming and food industry were properly enforced by the government, but so much of modern farming is focused on mass production to produce a cheap commodity. A lot of the time I don't really even trust the labelling on meat concerning whether it's 'free-range' or not, at least without asking questions concerning where the supply comes from.

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Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

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