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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:what are the chances of discussing the philosphy of christainity here on hop. it would be nice if those who respond have actually read portions of the new testemant at least. please resist the temptation to write something against the mainstream churches of today or what terrible things have been done in the name of christainity. please only comment on the philosophy written in the good book.

i want to start this thread because about 4 months ago i began reading the N.T. (new testament) and was surprised at the concepts and ideas i discovered. it remindered me of the eastern religions like hinduism and buddism. comfort can't be found in the material world, i'll have to find this scpriture later. their is one force/element which is behind the existence of all things Col 1:15-17. that the turth can be found within you Luke 17:21 John 7:38 John 14:17 Galations 4:6. and the spirit will teach you all wisdom Eph 1:17 Col 2:2

tell me what your veiw of these scpriture is and others. i am not a christain, jesus isn't my guru but the world veiw is very similar to what i beleive or at least i can eaily see it in the n.t.


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

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Posted:<waits with bated breath>



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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

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Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:If you like those, try Phillippians 4:13.

Raph


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:A lot of the bibles sayings can be interpreted to mean that kind of thing.

the only one I can think of at the moment is 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand'.

Usually taken to mean that there is a heaven waiting for us after death, but it could also be a reference to the more eastern notion of heaven being right here and now, i.e. enlightenment is always here and you just need to recognise it.

Also, Jesus' saying 'I am the son of God' usually taken to mean that he was 'the' son of God.

An alternative interpretation would be that he is 'a' son of God (spirit, Tao etc) in the way that we all are.

There's a long standing tradition of christian mysticism (seeking for direct experience of the spiritual through prayer, meditation etc) starting from the 'Desert Fathers'- a group of seekers who went into the desert 2,000 years ago to seek God.

As for the chances of discussing Christianity on HOP, i reckon they're pretty good as long as you keep an eye on the thread and politely let people know if they stray off topic.

Your initial post makes it pretty clear what the threads about so hopefully people will think twice about posting anti religious stuff.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:If you read in the gospels (Matthew Mark Luke and John) somewhere at the begingin of one of those books (just incase you cant tell I dont have a Bible with me) you will read how the Spirit of God came and "lay" with Mary. In all actuality Jesus is the Son of God.

"I am the Way the Truth and the Light, and no man can get to the Father except through me."

We are also all Gods children so in essence so is Jesus.

If you read later on in the Gospels, you will read about Jesus' first trip to the Sinagauge (sp) how is parents lost him and how when he was found he said that he was "With his Father" or "In his Fathers house."


Ehh take what you will from it, I'm sure that my reply will just scare away everyone who wants to post.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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brodieman


brodieman

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Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:faith is wonderful but blind faith is dangerous

(i like that saying)


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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:faith is wonderful but blind faith is dangerous

(i like that saying)

[ 16. September 2003, 12:29: Message edited by: Pele ]


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Posted:I'd be interested in reading the "original" Bible. I think it's difficult to analyse the Modern Bible as it is an interpretation based upon translation from Ancient Hebrew into Latin and then into English.

I can't help but think that a lot has been lost in these translations and that the original translators have, inadvertantly(sp), put their own spin on the Bible's message. Jesus becomes a white man (to use the "Dogma" example), when there is historical evidence from that period which suggests the contrary.

Can you effectivly analyse something which has been written and re-written everytime it's translated. The philosphy must be changed at every translation, not because the translators want to change it, but because there is no exact match for that particular word, which in hebrew is significant and profound, but in Latin or english means very little, or something completely different.

Sorry if I strayed a little off topic, but I believe that interpretation of the message ultimately changes the message itself, so can you base a belief on something that has been changed, possibly significantly, from it's origins?!

PsyB.


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Magnus


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Location: Bath, UK

Total posts: 279
Posted:Jesus was a dude, no doubt about that.

Christians get caught up in the myth and ignore what the guy actually had to say. He shows them a better way to live, and they basically put him on a pedestal, brand themselves sinful and assume they can never be as good as him.

Take a look at 'Jesus lived in India', which examines the evidence that Christ lived as a Buddhist before and after the crucifiction.

Of COURSE bits of the NT correspond with Buddhism and Hinduism, it doesn't take much research to see the same basic ideas cropping up in every religion. These ideas aren't specific to a particular faith, they apply to all of humanity because we are all experiencing the same existence.

It's only the interpretation and language that varies from culture to culture, and also, unfortunately, the degree to which the ideas have been distorted to control people.

This is where you get silly ideas like 'no sex before marriage', circumcision, holy wars, ethnic cleansing, and before you know it you're not loving your neighbour, you're judging, ostracising and executing him.


Magnus... pay it forward

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

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Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:Even reading the Bible it its original languages (Hebrew for the old testament, Greek for the new testament) wouldn't really give you a sense of what was circulating at the time.
If I remember correctly, in the 3rd century the council of Nicea decided which texts would be included in the "Bible" and which texts would not. Politics showed up long before the King James translation.

If you can get your hands on a collection of Apocryphal texts that will give you a taste of what was out there at the time, but the bulk of such writings were lost over time.

On another note, to fully understand those writings you have to put yourself in the mindset of those people the new testament was written for. Thats where a knowledge of history and archaeological record comes into play, rather than just relying on theology.

Raph


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:If you take Christianity as the one true faith, could you honestly believe that God would allow His Word to be corrupted by stupid men?

I just dont see that happening.

PSyB, I can honestly say that I believe that the Bible that we read in English is for the most part as close as you can get to a translation from the orriginal hand written source.

I am sure someone will try to discredit it, but this is what I believe in, you wont change my mind so lets just avoid the argument by not trying to tell me that I am wrong.

Blind faith isnt dangerus, no more so than when you sit in your chair. You have blind faith that it will hold you up, even if it is the first time you have ever sat in that specific chair. You dont get down on your hands and knees and inspect the chair do you? So you must have blind faith that it will hold you up. Is it always wise to have blind faith? Thats up to you to decide, not for anyone to dictate.


quote: Take a look at 'Jesus lived in India', which examines the evidence that Christ lived as a Buddhist before and after the crucifiction.
Magnus... where did you get that from bud? Was that sarchasim or did I miss a link somewhere? Please let me know

History and archaeology are there to back up the Bible. This is true, a wise man always looks under the last stone, even after his querry has been found, because you never know what else is there to be learned.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:If you take Christianity as the one true faith, could you honestly believe that God would allow His Word to be corrupted by stupid men?

I just dont see that happening.Then how do you, raymond, explain the Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, Roman Catholics etc - there are a LOT of different interpretations and some differ wildly

eg. jehovas witnesses and blood, or woman's rights.

my question is: have you read other holy books?

There are scriptures that teach religion with no central god - noone to worship or give money to, no idols to bend on knee to

Bhuddism being one - most of the good bits of christianity, none of the threats of heavenly violence and no enforced church

And find the other Gospels, there are 13.

Most famously Thomas's

"The Kingdom of God is inside/within you (and all about you), not in buildings/mansions of wood and stone. (When I am gone) Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift the/a stone and you will find me."

Oddly enough when you take ALL of christianity I like it.

But noone ever does.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Posted:Ray, I don't doubt that the Bible was translated faithfully by everyone who undertook that task, the majority being ecclesiastical types for the translation and copied by Scribes.
Scribes who often who couldn't read and were simply copying the pictures without true understanding of the message they were portraying, this does lead to some interesting "typo's" in some Biblical texts as they don't know what they are writing!

But aside from possible copying errors there are some words which do not translate directly from hebrew into Latin or English, as there are some words that don't translate directly from German to French etc.

Given that, sacrifices and comprimisations have had to be made, in essence corrupting the original message of the Bible, although in no way meaning to.

Sorry dude, I don't want to sound harsh or diss your beliefs, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like, I just enjoy this kind of theological debate.

No offence intended at all...

PsyB.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Itsgottab:
what are the chances of discussing the philosphy of christainity here on hop. it would be nice if those who respond have actually read portions of the new testemant at least. please resist the temptation to write something against the mainstream churches of today or what terrible things have been done in the name of christainity. please only comment on the philosophy written in the good book.

Itsgottab has made very clear what this post is about; some of the later posts here are going off topic and into the area of arguing about churches and the validity of the bible.

These are really interesting matters and would be good on another thread, but I'd like to see Itsgottab's request respected as I feel that this could be a interesting place to share ideas/insights rather than a place to argue.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Posted:Apologies Dave and itsgottab...

I just felt that interpretation of the message of Christianity also effects the philosphy of Christianity...

Sorry for the Hi-jack...

PsyB.


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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:Translation is always a problem and in terms of "God's word" being corrupted, thats exactly what happened at the Council of Nicea.

History and archaelogy are NOT there to back up the Bible. They are simply the 2 ways of understanding the past of mankind: through written sources and material culture. Where these two things overlap is where fact is established. (as far as is possible by us at the moment, of course)

Raph


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funkymonky


funkymonky

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Location: oxford

Total posts: 192
Posted:being a very adiment non christian, or come to think of it, non anything, the spiritual faith i hold in something more then all of this cant really be labled. simply having the faith in the fact that this is all simply 1 tiny stage upon which a certain degree of understanding is bestowed on us. some find it, some dont. some are never ment to find it. some are destined to show it.

but putting that aside, in all seriousness, not actually being very understanding in the beliefs of "god".... i'm not labling that to christianity, but to any religion where an eternal parental vision is held, wouldn't it be better to stand by your belief of not agreeing to the idea of someone elses faith, rather then saying you are a certain religion, but without acutaly feeling it?

eg, people who call themselves christian, but dont feel it, trying to kid themselves that going to church regularly and dictaing to others what they think is the "right" way of believing the way the world is is the way to heaven, or Muslims who use Allah's name to front their dictatorships, vent their personal anger against other religions? surly knowing within yourself that you believe in your faith, be it Hindu, Jewdism, anything else you want, is enough to satisfy your choosen idol?


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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:Raymond thanks for posting. and onewheeldave for trying to keep it on track.

Mary and the spirit is at Luke 1:35 in my bible it says '...and God's power will come over you.' which has to make you smile. this is an angel talking to mary. please don't get tied down in who did mary tell this story to, and so on. the message is in the word, its deeper, sound corney i know.

In my orignal post i made reference to all wisdom and knowledge being in christ, another one is Col 1:19 & 2:9 God is in Christ.

while christ was a man on earth, after death christ became a spirit Col 1:15, not that of a human but more like god, as Gen 1:26 Col 1:15 & 16

while some of you have a history on hop of arguing on almost all matters with raymond he is able to follow requests which seems is beyond you supposedly open minded types (lets talk philosophy and not whatever distractes us from talking about the philosophy, please. what you say is interesting maybe we could disscuss it next time) i incourage you to have a look at these scriputers on the blueletterbible.com site sorry i don't know how to do links


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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:I don't see that I have been arguing at all, just trying to clarify things about the scriptures as such clarification has a direct bearing on any discussions about the philisophies they contain.

I find religion very interesting indeed and welcome the opportunity to talk about such matters.

Raph


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Itsgottab has made very clear what this post is about; some of the later posts here are going off topic and into the area of arguing about churches and the validity of the bible.

These are really interesting matters and would be good on another thread, but I'd like to see Itsgottab's request respected as I feel that this could be a interesting place to share ideas/insights rather than a place to argue.Which is what I'm doing - not by randomly quoting it but examining the whole...

Quoting the bible is not discussing it and we're not arguing - if we're to discuss the philosophy of the bible, which as you say has reminded you of other religions philosophies - are we allowed to compare/contrast? or just say christianity's good?

are we only allowed to discuss one version of the bible?

quote:tell me what your veiw of these scpriture is and others. i am not a christain, jesus isn't my guru but the world veiw is very similar to what i beleive or at least i can eaily see it in the n.t.as we're doing. not meaning to be argumentative, but the discussion has to be allowed a sensible scope.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

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Posted:Exactly, Frosty.

Anyone can prove any point by quoting words out of their context in the middle of a completely unrelated conversation.

I find this use of the bible to be both insulting and steeped more in the quoter trying to prove themselves right, than trying to lead a good life.

I believe that the story of Jesus (whom I believe to be a holy prophet, just like Muhammed, Moses, etc etc) is a story of someone leading a good life more than any of the miraculous things he did.

His life is an example of how we should try to live, and that is what the new testament is all about, showing us what happened in his life.

We can translate those actions each as individuals, and apply it to our own lives. As long as we know we are trying to lead a good life.

To take a quote from the NT, and use it to perform less-than-good actions, such as the guy who killed the abortion doctor in the US, is a complete misuse of this holy text.

In my opinion, of course...


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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Okay, I may be a little off the mark, but my understanding of what Itsgottab (long time no talk, man ) was getting at was this:

The purpose of this thread is for discussing passages or verses in the bible that are

thought provoking,good teachings for anyone leading their lives,and/or similar to teachings from other religons.
The bible may have been changed and re-interpreted a million times over, I don't know. But this is to discuss some of the ideas that are in there now that people have found interesting or inspirational whether they are christian or not.

"the spirit will teach you all wisdom". I understand this as there is a basic state of being (feeling, attitude towards others etc) that if you practice will guide you in your life.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:I dont explain other religions, I cant, so I wont even attempt to. I have never read any other holy books.

The Gospel of Thomas... umm... it isnt in the Bible is it? Honestly it has been a long time since I forgot all the books of the Bible. Why should I believe a word that says? It isnt part of the Bible, therefore I will not take it as part of Christianity.


PSyB, dont worry, I may get angry but you gotta try pretty hard to really offend me. However, I dont think that God would allow the Word that guides His people to be corrupted. It just doesnt add up to me.


More later, got kicked off the comp, damn pack up


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Djnn


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Posted:well i do hold the deepest love and respect for the person jesus(hi) but jesus wasn't about comming to the planet to start a religion to set other religions right and thats what christanity is founded on it's a good religion that is based on faith alone which is ironic becuuse im quoting jesus here"you cannot enter though the gates of heaven on faith alone"
jesus came here same as all the other masters of all the religions to tell the people chill out,drink wine, sit back, learn from life, be good to your brothers(everyone is you brother or sister), and that God is us, he's not some mistical being pointing his finger at you saying "YES YOU---state your name here---I CHOOSE YOU ABOVE ALL ELSE" because if you read threw gennisis it says that we "are created in the immage and likelyness of god" hence that means take it as you will. Our world our reality is nothing more that a immage we live this illusion as a test to learn from so that we may one day evolve into our full potentials and regain our god hood that we were created to be
Read threw gennisis (the older the bible the better) because leave it up to the catholics to take away the true words of god and incert their own...(councle of 1612 i think but that could be way way off)
regardless i was born Catholic and raised in catholic schools intill i got on my own and from my experience with them their hearts are in the right place its just not headed in the right direction they split everything up into a heaven and a hell dividing their spirits in two
inorder to feach fullfillment you need to listen to your own heart
not the prayers of someone else
your prayers
talk to the earth
it is as much you as the body you call youself
that is the ego illusion that we're born into
you are a spirtual being having a human experience
don't mistake it for the other way around


love and light,
djinn


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Itsgottab


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Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE PHILOSOPHY IN THE N.T. PLAESE.

charles firstly, if you were refering to me as a 'quoter' trying to prove myslef right? i have tried to engage people into a disscussion about the philosophy written within the N.T. it would seem a good idea to quote from the source as somebody writing an essay on plato would prehaps quote plato. further if you read these 'quotes' and the scripture around them you just may find that they aren't taken out of context. if you weren't refering to me i aplogise.

The N.T. isn't about jesus's life, there is some mention of his birth a couple of scpriture about a visited to some rabbi when he was 12? the majority of whats written about jesus is of his teachings and preahing over about a 3 year peroid. this accounts for the gospels. An equal amount concerns (interestly paul never meet jesus , and fought against the early christain, he was instructed by the spirit) who wrote a number of letters to churches he had founded encouraging and instructing them how to live and outlining something of a philosophy in some of his smaller letters. there are a few other letters written by other followers. these were all written some time after jesus died. the first at least 30 years and the last maybe up to 100 years. christ didn't write any of the N.T. budda didn't leave any writings either.

another very important thing jesus said was that the spirit would teach the people, john his 'favorite' disiple also says this in his gospel and letters. So the bible it would seem is the introduction to belief and not the whole.

there are differences in what contributors say in the bible(compare james and peter to what paul give as to reasons for our sins. paul and jesus give different teachings on marriage, there are no doubt more, but these seem quite major to me) so when people read and formulate their beliefs they vary just as in buddism. this seems to be a problem more for non believiers.


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

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Posted:I'm going to ge myself in trouble again...


I don't feel there is a philosophy that exists on it's own in the NT.

It's an historical account.

The philosophy comes from how you intrepret the events and actions of the history as it is told...


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Itsgottab:
....blueletterbible.com site sorry i don't know how to do links Easiest way to do links is to go to the page you want to link to, highlight the address in it's address bar then copy and paste it into your post.

It should then be automatically converted to a link.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Charles is right and wrong, yes there is alot of history in the N.T. but within that history is "philosiphy", though I like to call it a four letter word... fact.

God is not us, sorry Djinn, I have to disagree with you there, I know you wont find Jesus saying that we are all God anywhere in the Bible, though I can not vouch for any other religion.

You are right, you can not enter the kingdom of God on faith alone, it does take some actions. Jesus said 'you acknowlege me with your lips before man I will acknowlege you in Heaven before God.' (thats parphrased, I dont have a Bible with me This would be a lot easier if I did )

I dont want to offend anyone, so I will just say that I dont agree with Catholisism and leave it at that.


The Bible is not the faith, the faith is something that you have. The Bible is more of a set of instructions. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth... a handy acronym


If you really want to get into an intersting debate read the book of Revilation. That one is a duesey hahaha


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:What in the NT is fact?

I am aware that there are elements in the OT which have been proven based on the existence of both historical AND archaeological record, but I haven't heard of the same being found in the NT.

If such evidence HAS been found, lay it on me!

More information, please!

Raph


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:This remit doesn't allow for much discussion, only parrot like repetition - the most interesting thing about the philosophies in the New Testament is how they've changed over time... but we're not allowed to talk about that.

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

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Posted:Okay, I know this is not from the new testament, but thought this might spark interesting debate:

quote: for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; Gen 8:21 Do you think humankind is essentially bad, or essentially good? Or is the basis of that statement (the idea of good/evil) purely subjective?


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