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Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
what are the chances of discussing the philosphy of christainity here on hop. it would be nice if those who respond have actually read portions of the new testemant at least. please resist the temptation to write something against the mainstream churches of today or what terrible things have been done in the name of christainity. please only comment on the philosophy written in the good book.

i want to start this thread because about 4 months ago i began reading the N.T. (new testament) and was surprised at the concepts and ideas i discovered. it remindered me of the eastern religions like hinduism and buddism. comfort can't be found in the material world, i'll have to find this scpriture later. their is one force/element which is behind the existence of all things Col 1:15-17. that the turth can be found within you Luke 17:21 John 7:38 John 14:17 Galations 4:6. and the spirit will teach you all wisdom Eph 1:17 Col 2:2

tell me what your veiw of these scpriture is and others. i am not a christain, jesus isn't my guru but the world veiw is very similar to what i beleive or at least i can eaily see it in the n.t.

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
We all fear something, it doesnt matter if you admit or not. I am not saying you are fearfull of Christianity. `To be honest I fear falling, heights dont bother me, I love them, but for some reason I am scared to death to fall from a great height.

I can come up with many examples of how I have weasled my way out of going up to the top of something or yadda yadda yadda hehe I am sure you dont need me to elaborate further on my fear of falling.

I am sorry for putting words in your mouth, I took what you meant as original sin, as the Original Sin.


quote:
You keep saying this. Hence I guess you believe it quite fervently. So what is your explanation for how different translations differ if God would not allow His Word to be written wrong?
Frosty, 2+2=? 1x4=? 2x2=? 1+1+1+1=?, what equation equals 4? The Bible has differnt translations, so that people of differnt mindsets can understand it. There is even a Comic Book edition, I know... I have it !


quote:
There IS much more information than in the bible - many people here have given you pointers to other parts of the bible and other accounts of Jesus' life, but you've dismissed them all. Why? Aren't you interested in Jesus' life?
Paul said that there will be many gospels written, some will be false, and that you should guard yourself from these false gospels. I am not a Biblical scholler, in fact I am a dunce when it comes to Biblical studies. How then am I to defend myself from lies? I trust in what the Bible says, I do not allow my mind to faulter from this. If it does not go along with what the Bible says... then it is false. End of story, if the Dead Sea Scrolls, contradict the Bible, they are false. If Billy Bob Thorton's verson contradicts the Bible, then it is false. The Bible is what I need, I dont need these other Testaments.


Does this answer your questions?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
I believe someone already beat me to it here, and I should have caught your earlier reference to it about 50 posts back Ray, but women certainly do NOT have an extra rib. Go look it up in an anatomoy book, or: https://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_095b.html

A little more direct.

Taking your example then, why can not other religions be equally as valid? Many lay out the same basic path and principles as Christ, but just because a group of white men (This is largly accurate BTW, though of course you still have cultural and local interests in those decissions as well) say that THESE are the fundamentals, you will believe them over Jesus? The words are inconsequential, it is the meaning therein that must be adheared to. Words are just symbols. And if MEANING can be lost between translation, and it can, then how do you know that the exact meaning of the original is what you hold in your hands now? And if different translations omit or add different things, then what are the "fundamentals" of the faith, and what is extra jibber-jabber (To borrow from Mr T) which can be seen then in a different light.

Jesus never wrote anything. Buddha never wrote anything. Therefore, all texts are secondary sources. Muhammed DID write something... and people STILL misinterpret it. Further, if looking at Biblical history, you will find that during a vast 1,000 year span (HALF of our history there) the book survived in original form, and was translated by, those men who withdrew completely from society into monastic life. Yes there was an active church, but they were mostly exploiting there powers for Crusades and Inquisitions, and all kinds of stuff like that. But I already mentioned how I didn't see how he would use his power (Which has left no perceivable traces EVER in history after Jesus) to keep translations close to original, and not to stop the endless destruction and murder carried out in his name.

Last point, take a look at the Greek myths of Dionysus. And if you compare most of the spiritual leaders of our history, you can actually pinpoint the similarities, and cultural influences on myth and religion. The miraculous birth, the miracles, the age-30 midlife crisis turned savior, etc. etc. And last, if God came today, do you think he would speak in the same manner he spoke 2000 years ago? If not why the discrepency? And if so, would anyone understand him or would we just be beating our heads against the wall over differences in interpetation again? Arg!

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Frosty, what was dropped about Lot's wife?? I have yet to find a Bible that didnt tell how she died... that is the thing she is most famous for.

Hrmm... "If" does not mean "does", I never said that the Dead Sea Scrolls contradict the Bible.


Ohh my Frosty, now, when it suits you in your argument, you believe me when I say there is a difference?? I mean in just another topic you stood up and argued how there was no differnce between killing and murder!! I think it is time to raise the BS flag to its full height.

Its pretty sad, you cant even keep your own stories straight!

But in all honesty, I'm not a Biblical schollar, I dont know how to answer that question. However, I can ask someone who will know how to answer it. I'll get back to you on that one.

Sorry... the rib thing was meant in humor.

Man... alot of hate twords the white man, crazy I tell you!

The reason the inquisition happend, was because, and yes the Church leaders were at fault here, those who were not sanctioned by the Church could not read the Bible. That and the majority of those who lived in the times of the inquisition, couldnt speek latin, the language the Bible was most widly translated into.

If Jesus came today, his words would not be the same, because we dont talk in the same manner. The message would still be the same but the words would be differnt. That is, if he even spoke English. His crucifiction would be differnt, we no longer nail people to a cross... alot would be differnt, but the message would remain the same.


Why cant other religions be valid??? "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light and no man can come to the Father except through Me." Sound familier?

Jesus and his words are not just the fundamentals of faith, they are the fundamentals of life.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Well... when you seem to change from disagreeing, to agreeing it calls for question. Possible mudslinging on my part, but not unreasonable. However, I dont have an answer for you, I am not this all knowing guy. I tried to answer your question, I even said I would find out for you.

I am sorry this wasnt good enough

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
I'm interested what the phrase: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light and no man can come to the Father except through Me" (and it's associated passages in St John's Gospel) actually means to Christians. Anyone?

i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
I see it as dividing the story of Christ into two sections: Pre and post enlightenment (To borrow an eastern term). Now clearly you have Jesus the Man, pre-30 illumination, which exists as ONLY those things we know about his childhood as after his disappearance at the age of 12 (Not clear on exact age) we know nothing until he comes back to teach. Now clearly Jesus the Man (Or rather Boy) was of above average intelligence, had a very open mind, was more compassionate than most, and had certain visits and things happen to him which COULD shape the kind of person that would go out in the dessert and meditate (or pray if you'd like) until he realized Truth.

Then you have Jesus Christ, which is a whole new ball game. In Eastern Vedic religions to become "One" with the path to enlightenment has both symbolic and tangeable overtones. I tend to think of Jesus' transformation as similar. Thus the statement that "I am the Way [Pretty Taoist symbolism there], the Truth and the Light and no one comes to the Father [cultural translation from Vedic to Judeism] except through me [Not 'Me'?]" Now it seems to me that Christians take a hyper-symbolic view of this statement, meaning that he is the example of the way, whereas I tend to think of it more as these are different attempts at translation of a concept beyond human conception which, having reached that stage, Jesus is trying to convey back to the others. Basically, if "God" is not favomable, how do you describe him in concept? You approximate with words familiar.

Eastern religions see enlightenment as a step that is not describable, much the same way Christians see "God". The concept is not that dissimilar at all, and in fact when viewed from Gnostic or many Monastic positions in the Christian faith, look very very VERY similar. In comparing different religions, I have taken the multiple perspective theory to heart... if it exists in ALL or MOST religions, then that is a TRUE religious element, and is much more open to debate and validation because of the different perspectives. This is from where I take my view of this quote, as it is very much like what Buddha or Lao Tzu may have spoken, and quite in the same form as well. It does not necessarily mean "Worship me because I am right", more like "There is only one way, but all find the path". Just like all rivers flow into one. Or many trails cross paths in the forest... all go to the same place, and some may be more direct, and some may backtrack sometimes, but in the end they are all equal.

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Frosty, I understand the question, the problem isnt comprehension, it is knowing the answer. Calm down, I will do all I can to get it answerd for you.

Dom, to me, it means that if you dont know Christ, you are not getting into Heaven. Jesus also said, (paraphrased) If you acknowlege me with your lips before man, I will acknowlege you before my Father.


Beefy... did Peter and Paul exist before age... 30? (I dont know how old they were) Personally I believe that the reason you dont see more of Jesus' childhood, isnt because of any religius scheam, but because he was a kid. I am sure he did the things that most kids did. What is there to write about?

40 days without food, I think he knew a little something before going out.

Dont forget his baptisim. Where the Spirit of God decended as a dove, and a voice from heave said, (paraphrased again) This is my Son, whom I am well pleased. (something like that, I dont have a Bible infront of me) Even John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God"

There are many religions out there that sound similer, kinda like how some music sounds alike though it is actually differnt styles. You have to decide what you like and what you dont.

I know what I believe, what you need to do is decide for you. Enjoy

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Here is your answer Frosty:

When asked what the greatest commandment is Jesus replied, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind soul body and streangth. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself.

So I must ask you, what does that mean?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
Love thy neighbor as yourself... because at the deepest level he IS your self. Sort of have to be versed in the Vedic texts to understand this, but it's the idea of Brahman or undifferentiated reality. At the deepest level Brahman (undifferentiated reality, ultimate reality, whatever) is Atman (The universal self) is atman (the individual self), so all self's are different manifestations of one universal self. Above the Oracle at Delphi was a famous saying: "Know thy self" which some like to claim had this kind of suggestion hidden in it.

While doing reports for my Eastern Philosophy class tonight I came across a religious interpetation of the Vedas (Religious texts of India). Samkhya is a dualistic theory of existence, seperating everything into Material and Purusha (Kind of like the soul). Anyway, I just thought I would mention it, because it is remarkebly similar to the Western religions views... And they supply many logical progressions and such on the nature of the world that can probably apply. For instance they don't believe in a God figure (Yoga adds that on later), but only in pure consciousness which gives rise to the experiential world, and upsets the balance between three "qualities", whose combination makes up everything that we see. Liberation very similar to heaven, but of course with a karmic influence. Just interesting extra material... it kinda provides a logical explanation for many things that Christianity claims must be taken on faith... you may want to give it a gander if you get the chance.

woodnymphmember
313 posts
Location: london,uk


Posted:
so i go to hell cos i'm not christian????we are all bigger than our bodies,we all have a soul and are made out of love and return to love.Hell is a state of mind.There is no god up there sitting in judgement on me and if there is then i sure ain't going to worship him out of fear...
And about that pork thing,maybe certain people noticed that after eating old meat people got ill and sometimes died,you don't need a microscope to work that one out...?

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Tell me again, where did Christianity originate? Was it the West? Or Mid-East?

In fact Christianity is a world religion, not a western philosiphy.

An odd fact for those who dont know it,

Name the #1 selling book of all time and current #1 selling book world wide.

The Bible. No other book gets sold as many times, and no other book has been translated into so many differnt languages. It is even recorded into languages that have no written form, so that the people may know the truth.

Woodnymph, you dont worship God out of fear, you worship God out of Love. However a wise man does Fear God.

If hell truly is a state of mind, how can you be in that state of mind when you are dead? I'm no doctor, but doesnt the mind stop working when you're dead?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


squarefishSILVER Member
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
403 posts
Location: the state of flux, Ireland


Posted:
To all,
first off I would like to say that I find myself deeply disturbed by this discussion thread,
there is a dark undercurrent running through many of the posts which I had hoped never to see on these pages.

There have been too many flame-like posts and personal attacks, not only on fellow members but also on the moderators who give their time to oversee these message boards.

I find myself editing and re-editing this post as I write it so I'll keep it brief.

I am a scientist, brought up in a roman catholic home in the Republic of Ireland.

If I dare to ask for proof of a gods existence does that make me an evil person in that gods eyes? Will this god then refuse me entry into its heaven?

I have seen far too much blood spilt in the name of gods in my 27 years, brother against brother, fathers against sons, in my own country and in the rest of the world.

I would therefore ask the moderators to carefully re-examine the thread and ask themselves if they would allow the level of vitriol, bile and spite shown herein to be continued on any other topic, and seriously consider the option of stopping this thread.

yours sincerly
Martin

[ 13. October 2003, 13:06: Message edited by: squarefish ]

Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
it does seem like ray beefy and frosty are in an endless battle of insults, its funny cos although you have points of differences it would seem you both actually beleive quite seemly points, one though faith the other though reasons.

let it rest

squarefishSILVER Member
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
403 posts
Location: the state of flux, Ireland


Posted:
Casting the stones? without guilt yourself? shame on you, itsgottab, shame I say.

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
*laughs hysterically*

Wow, this post is extreamly mild in insult department. Here I was thinking that I was actually being a good boy. Now if you really want to see a crazy thread, find the "Anti War" thread... if it even still exists. That there is some truly negitive stuff!

In truth I do owe Frosty a debt of thanks, he (and in truth, others) has forced me to go really start reading the Bible and Praying more. Frankly I had been in a slump, a very long slump.


Squarefish, I see the proof of Gods existance whenever I open my eyes. I cant tell you if you will go to hell for asking God to prove that he exists. But I tell you the truth, if you dont believe, you will never see past the Gates.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
Actually, I think since I brought up that same point earlier in this series Raymund and I have been quite cordgial. We havn't really been insulting each other at all, just discussing back and forth on different points with different reasons. You may take some of my analogies, etc. to imply that I think he is stupid or something like that for believing what he believes, but that is not the case at all. Yes, some of the earlier parts of the thread got a little heated, and every once in a while someone gets a little offended, but that's life.

To say "Keep your religion to yourself" is foolish. Everything in our existence is based on relation. How am I to find what I truly believe without relating it to what others believe? This discussion has not been an endless series of flames, on the contrary, it has stimulated my search for my own spirituality, just as it has Rays, in ways that few things EXCEPT luke-warm discussion can bring about.

One of the good things about a board like this is that you don't have to read the discussions you don't want to get involved in... If you legitimatly want to discuss religion and spirituality, then yes some people may feelthey get their feet stepped on sometimes. I had a teacher in high school who, if you fell asleep, would step on your foot (Quite painfully sometimes) to wake you up. Sometimes we need someone to test our boundaries in order to wake us up and make us realize what we DO believe.

And with that...

If as Jesus said God is all forgiving (one of the central tennants of Christianity I believe, eh?) then why is there a need for a conceptualization of hell? I think what was trying to be hinted at (maybe Im wrong) was that hell is based on aversion to things you dislike, which is only possible in life. In the afterlife, hell is a pointless conceptualization. It's like a computer, with electricity being the soul. When you turn it off, the electricity is not there, but all the memories are still in the hard drive. Similarly we leave behind us our life and return to a pure spiritual state in which judgement is pointless. How do you tell this electricity from this electricity basically? There is no difference, there is only electricity. Similarly there is no difference between souls, there is only Soul, God's or mortal's.

Surly you have seen or read some rendition of Frankenstein (similar to Satan and "Non servium" actually...). Once created, why must I be greatful? I never asked to be created. How do I know non-creation wasn't better? Personally if God is sitting in judgement of me, I really don't know if I could resist mooning him when I die. I'm all about my freedom from anything and everything, and I don't like judgement in any case whatsoever (To clear that up, yes, I am quite an anarchist in my beliefs). If he created me for some purpose, then who says I want to live out that purpose? If free will exists, then I retain my ability to deny serving him or anyone's purpose.

And last but not least, if you are Taoist, hell holds no meaning. A true Taoist enjoys everything, as they see all experience as satisfactory, whether you would classify it as "good" or "bad". So what is hell for the archetypal Taoist? Nothing could qualify, and if nothing can qualify for one person, how can it be universally applicable?

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Ya I'm kinda stupid sometimes... but it gets the women Ever seen Snow White... all the chicks dig Dopey... and boy do I have big ears


Sorry, your whole electricity analogy lost me, can you try to find another?

On that note, Hell... is and has never been designed for humans. Hell is for those angles who followed Lucifer. Now, God will not allow sin to be in his presence... so when you die if you have the stain of sin on your soul, you will not be with God for all eternity.

God has provided every human out there a way to wash away the stain of sin. You just have to accept it. Its free, it wont cost you anything.

God aside, you are judge every time you enter into the publics eye. Every time you walk down a street you are judged. If you dont like that, stay indoors, it doesnt matter how anarchist you are, you're going to be judged.

You can serve whatever it is that you want. Just like you can walk into a crowded building and start shooting everyone, you still have to attone for your actions.


I must admit that the ideals of a Taoist baffle me. I personally think, that complete solitued, the void of everything except for pain. The burning, the worms eating through your flesh, darkness... hell is a terrible place. Hell is beyond a taoist's ability to comprehend, so how would s/he know if they can truly be satisfied?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
I didn't say they weren't free to judge me, just that I would not abide by their judgement. For instance, if God were to say "You did wrong" I would say "You have no right to judge me". If God IS judgemental like that, then I think it kinda goes against the heart of Christian belief in forgiveness, kinda like a catch 22. Reconciling the Old Testament judging God with the New Testament forgiving God.

If it is simply the nature of SIN that makes God put you in hell, then why MUST I believe in certain things if I live my life rightiously? Is God really that big of an egomaniac that I HAVE to recognize him as my Lord? If life is a gift given to us by our unconditionally loving God, then why must I have faith to be in heaven after death? That's not unconditional then is it? Doesn't that kind of Dogma suggest that God just created us to be praised? So if I create a machine with intelligence, then it MUST praise me because I made it? Lots of science fiction movies deal with that subject and they tend to think that aint the way it'd go, but then I guess that's just speculation.

These are the questions I find myself asking when I start delving into religious Dogma... I have yet to find a satisfactory answer that fits with what the Dogma says... my reason and my feelings are such that I just can't see a loving creator who would be that wound up in his own image that I would HAVE to worship him. Animals don't worship him, does that mean all animals go to hell? Or do they worship him by simply living the life that he has provided? Why does that not apply to Humans too? Or is human life different from animal life by virtue or type of the soul (I think this is a stance I've heard before somewhere...). Are animals simply automatons without free will and humans differ that way, they being put here for us to consume and use? Does that change when some animal evolves enough to speak? Oops, wait, apes can speak through sign language, so I guess that can't be right, they aren't just automatons... But if they have free will aren't they subject to the same "choices" about sin?

My electricity analogy is the best I can come up with... I'll try to clarify. The computer is your body, the electricity your soul. Without the soul, the body is useless, without the electricity the computer is useless. Remember that analogies are to help understand, not completely accurate. Electricity flows through the computer, as you might say "life force" or soul flows through the body. This DOES differ a little bit from conventional Christian belief, as it sees all Soul as one. This negates the existence of Heaven or Hell directly, because without individual souls, there can be no judgement passed. All of your experiences, memories, what you do, etc. is like what happens to the computer. Eventually something in the computer fails, just as the body fails, and electricity can not pass through it (Ie death and Soul not passing through the body). This was the analogy I was trying to point out, that all of your memories and actions are recorded in your brain, like a hard drive. Just as you can not say that the information in your hard drive belongs to the electricity which gives it existence, you can't say your experiences and perceptions belong to your soul, since the soul is of the underlying universal sort, and not the individual sort, in this analogy anyway.

Is that clearer as to what I was trying to convey? I think I might be able to whip another one up using water and a waterwheel for further clarification...

PrometheusDiamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia


Posted:
Just an observation in question form...

Why are the most devout Christians, who live by the word of God, the least tolerant, understanding and forgiving people you will ever meet?

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
No God has and always will judge people. That is his job and his right. God will fogive you if you ask, if you dont well... thats when the bad things start.

If God isnt your Lord, what/who is? Money?

Life is a gift that was never supposed to end. Wo/man messed up, we screwed up and now we have to pay the price. It is kinda like getting angry at the cop when he pulls you over for doing 45 in a 15! Kinda dumb aint it.

Honestly I dont know, nor will I pretend to know why God decided to create man. However, I know that I sing his praises out of love, not out of a nessesity.

Hehe funny how you say that about the animals not praising God. The Bible says that if man were to stop praising God then the very rocks will in our place.

Dolphins have a sort of language so do whales and though most scientists will disagree, any dog lover will tell you that dogs have their own langauge. Big deal. God created animals so that they might serve us. We were created last. To put it in terms the Imperials will understand, In a Royal court, all the members of the court are preasent before the King and Queen walk into the room.


The Christain religion doesnt see every soul as one, where did you get that from? You could have possibly gotten it from when a man and a woman have sex, but thats not quite.

Prom, how many devout Christians that live by the Word of God, do you know? I am quite sure that you know most of them dont you

Frosty, whom did I threaten? If you shoot yourself in the head, YOU WILL DIE. Did I just threaten you? No I told you the truth of the matter, if you go to hell... you will not enjoy it, it will down right suck! Is that a threat?

Anyone can live a good life, living a Rightious life, now thats another story.


Actually, Christianity isnt very fluffy. In fact it is pretty harsh when you compare it to something like reincarnation, or any other form of religion that doesnt include a punishment.

What is really sad, is that you are trying so hard to piss me off, and it isnt working. It is actually getting humorus.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
i8beefy2 - I'm liking your thinking. It's one of my reasons against the Christian religion. I can not see that a truly awesome creator such as God would require anything of us. It's like one big scientific experiment - you set things up and see how they work out.

And hell - the logic of hell does not fit within the concept of an all loving God. If he's all loving then there is no room for hell, there is no possibility that it can exist. If a glass is full of water - there is no room for air. In the same way a God full of love is incapable of the bitterness and pitiness required to create hell.

And a correction for Ray - Reincarnation sits within eastern philosophies and revolve around the concept of cyclic karma. There's as much punnishment here as in your idea of Christianity. If you behave badly then you're reincarnated further down the ladder than when you started. Be good and you're reincarnated one step closer to enlightenment - heaven. In this philosophy it's harder to enter heaven than a Christian.

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Okay... Dom think like God not a man. Can you do that? I know I cant. Can you actually rationalise God? No you cant sorry mate.

As for reincarnation... ohh I lived a bad life, time to come back as a moth!! Sorry that isnt punishment. I wonder how far down the chain you can go... can you become an ameba or something?


Dom did you not read what I said about hell? IT WAS NEVER DESIGNED FOR HUMANS!!! It isnt a punishment for us!! It is a punisment for Satan and those angles that followed him!


Like I said if the world end or you die, and you are not clean before God, He is going to put you in hell. Why? Because He will not allow sin to be near Him. You are stained with sin, ergo you cant be near him. To be in heaven is to be near God.

Now, God is all loveing, why? Because he has given you every imaginable chance to accept him, and you have turned your back. He say "I love you, and I want you to love me!" He loves you so much he is willing to remove any obstical in your way! He loves you so much, he sent his only Son to die, a very horrible death, FOR YOU! That was the death that we all deserved, the only person who didnt deserve it was Jesus, yet he did it for you! HOW IS THAT NOT LOVE?

The reason you dont like the Christian religion isnt because you cant understand how God loves you, you dont like it because God loves you so much that he tells you how wrong you are living your life. You cant stand being told No. Your like a 2 year old.

A 2 year old does something bad, and you tell them no dont do it... what does the kid do? He waits untill he thinks you're not looking, then he does it again... then he gets angry at you when you punish him!

God says, I love you and I dont want you to do that, but you have the free will to do it anyway, and when you do He punishes you AND YOU GET ANGRY AT HIM!! How much commen sence is that?


Why in your so advanced smart brain cant you comprehend this? Put the pot down, pick up a Bible and start reading it with an open mind and an open heart.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
If animals are put here to serve us, then they are slaves by that definition aren't they? Obviously they feel and are subject to free will and choice the same as we are, so for us to impose OUR will on them is immoral just as it is immoral for us to impose it on other people. Or for a God to impose his will on us. I believe in a universality, as above so below, since that seems to be the design of the universe from physics to psychology. If something can not apply in one case, then it is not fully true, and the theory must be revamped or discarded. Just as hell can not exist for a Taoist, the Christian / Judaic concept of hell must be somewhat mistaken in some aspect. Also, historically Hell was an addition late in the history of Judaic religions, but I will leave that to your own research (Something about Romans being gay, which also explains the church's historical stance on homosexuals).

Is damnation to "hell" even laid out in the NT or is it inferred? It says "No one comes to the father, blah blah blah" but does it specifically say "Those who do not are damned"? It's been a while so I don't remember...

The idea that Soul is one underlying unity as apposed to individualized souls is not conventional Christianity, as I think I said. It is another interpetation that perhaps you're not as familiar with. Some of the early sects interpeted along these lines, as well (I think?) the Gnostics. Again, it's been awhile since I studied Western religions...

Eastern Religions kind of solve this problem with Karma. While they see all souls as having one underlying reality in common, after death they are still individual by the idea of a sort of Karmic stain (Ray's ealrier analogy of the stain of sin not being present in God kinda is like this). This "stain" holds together the individual soul which immediatly reincarnates to live again until eventually you are supposed to be able to live a clean life free of sin and be reabsorbed kind of. Another karmic view is that all that reincarnation stuff is a metaphore for a more psychological death, Karma's past actions being your past experiences pulling you back into old habits. The only way then to be "liberated" is to renounce everything in your past and be free of all entanglements (Many Buddhist schools follow this route). Liberation then is something to be attained by all upon death, similar to Christianities view that you go to heaven upon death, or become one with God or the underlying reality, or whatever.

Just another way of lookin at the same thing perhaps?

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Animals are not slaves, servents, servents serve. Ever seen a plow pulled by an Ox or something else? That animal is there to serve man. Ever owned a dog or cat, granted cats are independent, but they serve humans by being companions.

There are many differnt forms of servitued, try to open your mind

You have the free will to choose God, you have the free will to not choose God. He isnt forcing you either way.

Read the book of Revilation, there you will see alot about the division of the flock. About who will go to heaven and those who will go to hell.

Umm my sould isnt part of a colective it is a single entity in itself. It belongs to God because I have given it, but I am not part of the Borg when I die, I am still myself.

Religion isnt a problem that you can solve. You cant pick and choose what you like and what you dont.

You do not become one with God, sorry mate, you're your own person.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


PrometheusDiamond In The Rough
459 posts
Location: Richmond, Virginia


Posted:
Actually, Ray, I know a lot of people with many different religious backgrounds. I have known Christians, Jews, Wiccans, Mormans, I even bunked with a Buddhist for a summer. I have discussed their individual beliefs, holidays and observances at length, because I have an interest in religion as a lifestyle. I observed every level of commitment to their various faiths, from the passive to the passionate, and I can tell you, Christians (on the whole) are the most unyielding, judgmental, self-righteous people I have ever met.

I can justify this for a few reasons:
1) They are convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong. They will adamantly defend their faith as unquestioned fact, rather than a personal belief, and are the first to attempt your conversion.
2) The last thing they want to hear about is someone else's belief system. They are intolerant as a rule. As far as they're concerned, if you're not Christian, you're inferior.
3) No where, not even in politics, will you find such deep-seated hypocrisy. Christianity is replete with double-standards, false pretense and misguided arrogance. Even the rules they set for themselves, the Ten Commandments for example, are not closely observed. "A mouth that prays and a hand that kills." - Arabian proverb...

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not an iconoclast. Nor do I subscribe to any particular faith. I have a hard time following organized religion of any kind. You can only judge a given system by it's results, not it's intentions. And after 2000 years, what have they really accomplished? Have they done more good than harm? I mean, Communism is a great idea - on paper. But in practice, it just doesn't hold up very well.

I just think people should believe what they want and leave it at that, ya know, judge not and all that...

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Prom, if we were right wouldnt you want us to share the truth? Is that wrong?


Hrm "intolerant as a rule" well... lets see, if I argue against that I prove your point, but if I dont then I it would apear that I agree with you. Good choice of words, a very well laid trap. However, sorry, intolerant isnt the right word. It is like, you know someone can do something, yet they refuse to do it. You expect them to preform to a certain level and then they dont. Then you get upset with them. Is that being intolerant?

Can you judge a whole religion based on the actions of few? Thats like saying all fags have aids! It isnt true.

Just in writing what you did, yo have violated your own judge not policy. Hypocryte!!

Communisim has worked only once in the history, read the book of Acts in the Bible.

Frosty, how exactly am I picking and choosing what I like and what I dont? Where did I say that I wont read differnt books about my religion? Perhaps the right thing to say would be, that I have YET to read some books that people have offered.

You like insulting and putting words in my mouth. How open minded you are.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Flipmodiusmember
103 posts
Location: Halifax, N.S


Posted:
hey, i am taking a course on religous studies in university right now we have not reached christianity yet, but we have covered a lot of eastern religons i.e. hindusim, budaism,and taoism (the topic of todays lecture). so i may not find my views to co-inside with yours. I have read the new testiment and i found very little in common with christanity.
if you really tear every thing apart to the very most basic ideas then all religons are alike.

some will understand. -buddah


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Well... I look forward to hearing your views when you reach Christianity. Dont worry about not agreeing with someone elses view, it would appear that I am the only one on this board of over 6000 people that has this view point.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Flipmodiusmember
103 posts
Location: Halifax, N.S


Posted:
thanks, i just got my papre on "am i religous and why" back. i got a 65% my teachr didn't know what to make of my belives. probly cause i used this quote:"'now it is such a bizzarely improbable coincidence that any thing so mind bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance, that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clenching proof of the non existance of god' the arguement goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that i exist' says god 'for proof denys faith and without faith i am nothing' 'but' says man'the babel fish is a dead give away isn't it?it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist and so therefore, by your own arguements you don't, Qed.' 'oh dear' says god'I hadn't thought of that' and promptlyvanishes in to a puff of logic."
now if you read hitchhikers guid to the galaxy you know what a babel fish is if you didn't i will explain. a babrl fish is a fish that you place in your ear and instantly understand language spoken to you.

some will understand. -buddah


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
It is very interesting how the listener has decided to pull all these old laws. Laws that have been replaced. If you will note, none of these examples are from the *gasps* shock and amazment New Testiment!

A very good attempt at a trap, however, the laws no longer apply. This isnt picking and choosing what part of religion I like. This is Biblical fact. If our lovly listener would have actually read farther into her Bible IE the New Testiment, then she would have realised this.

I applaude your audacity and willingness to try to make a fool out of myself. Your selfless deeds will surly grant you a reward from man. I am sure you went out all your chummies and bragged about how your stuck it to me.

Ohh by the way, I was rereading your little post, and I found a fatle flaw, well other than the one previusly mentiond, I asked for you to prove where "I" was picking and choosing what I believed. However this was not aimed at me, so how does what this woman said, apply to me. Granted you can make a broad generalisation that it applies to all Christians, however that speculation holds about as much ale as a bottomless stien!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


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