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Itsgottab
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Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:what are the chances of discussing the philosphy of christainity here on hop. it would be nice if those who respond have actually read portions of the new testemant at least. please resist the temptation to write something against the mainstream churches of today or what terrible things have been done in the name of christainity. please only comment on the philosophy written in the good book.

i want to start this thread because about 4 months ago i began reading the N.T. (new testament) and was surprised at the concepts and ideas i discovered. it remindered me of the eastern religions like hinduism and buddism. comfort can't be found in the material world, i'll have to find this scpriture later. their is one force/element which is behind the existence of all things Col 1:15-17. that the turth can be found within you Luke 17:21 John 7:38 John 14:17 Galations 4:6. and the spirit will teach you all wisdom Eph 1:17 Col 2:2

tell me what your veiw of these scpriture is and others. i am not a christain, jesus isn't my guru but the world veiw is very similar to what i beleive or at least i can eaily see it in the n.t.


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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:"Yay more people in the thread! Woot! Come on someone take a jab at my time theories! Does God exist in or outside of time, and if time had a beginning what was God doing before it."

Does a clock tick before you put in the battery
(and I'm not talking of a wind up for all of you out there that would of pointed that out and still then who's hand would wind the watch)
It's not time itself that we by its the measurment of time we see it come and go but is anything ever taking us out of this present moment. Are we ever living in the future or the past, now I'm sure that there is the expression of living in the past but its to say the least a illusion( yes most eastern religions nailed it)
Time (in this dimension at least, I'm not getting into the other levels here) is mostly spherical. If your looking at this moment everything that has happened to you happened to you when? Does time as in that greater force have some God winding the clock. Did he create the whole thing just so that it would boggle our minds so that when one day comes where we sit back and reflect upon our whole life past present and future and get of first glimpse of the true nature of time beyond the veil of illusion of the world and we can see this time from above it rather than within it...what then do you think this time will look like.
It's like being uplifted out of the maze to look at the whole picture than returning back to the maze to finish what you started.
Good luck finding the cheeze at the end.
See you along the way
and if not we all reach the end at one point
some just are lost much much longer


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:If I made a plastic figure in the likness of a tree... is it a tree? Nope it is a plastic figure that looks like a tree. It can never be a tree. It can never be more than what it is.

I have a friend that is currently attending Oazark Christian College. He is taking Greek studies and is currently translating the Gospel of John, from its original Greek, to English. In fact the whole New Testiment was written in Greek. From what he says (and I just got off the phone with him about and hour ago) the literal translation is pretty much exact with what we read today. Granted the verbage is a bit backwards, but the meaning is the same. So apperntly nothing is lost in the translation.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Itsgottab
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Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:regarding the laws of the old testement. doesn't paul in his letters says that the law is finished and the following the spirit is the new law? which is summed up in 'love' god and others.

it seems to me that christains in general know the bible and rely on the bible for life guidence just as the jews relied on the law. little has changed here? this was what paul at least wanted to aviod. although like others have said and know the NT is more compassionate.


love to you all.


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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Ray, Sharing one's faith with others is one thing. To declare it as the only right way is another, as a lot of Christians do. Even worse is when they try to instill their religious beliefs on me by manipulating the legal system.

If most Christians dont share their faith, why are they standing on street corners with signs about my 'sins?' Why are they protesting in front of abortion clinics? Why are they on TV quoting scripture? Christians have some of the best-equipped, most organized activists out there. They share their faith all the time, in very public ways.

Without trying to sound insensitive... Those 'Commandments' don't apply to me. As I said, they're OK for you, but I don't follow those laws to the letter. Without a doubt, they're a great blueprint for daily life and behavior, but those first 2 just ain't my cup o' tea... Now I realize that 'God loves me anyway..." And that's cool, too, I'll take all the love I can get, but I'm still gonna listen to my Judas Priest CD's while eating steak on a Friday and reading Maxim magazine


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:it all comes down to something far beyond scriptures and laws

How do you live?

forget even for a second all the laws, all the scriptures , all that every was handed down to and man to have power over what another does.

leave all that aside

now is killing someone right?
is the world going to turn around into a live version of a action movie with everything blowing up and hell breaking up out of the floor with satin himself leading the armies of the underworlds to earth to clam the souls of everyone

No

The true laws and codes of life are within us all

And there worded differently in different people

compassion love truth

these are three qualities of human nature
that I see in all society.
Why? is it the laws or what we're told to do.
No there are no laws saying Love or Die
But many religion groups try inforcing
their love into others lifes
it they would just let it go
the other's love could flow naturally
it might not be christian love but who cares
when it LOVE

and its that my brothers and sisters
that I send to you all in each breath we share


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dude Prom, where in the world are you getting this "most" from? Dude you have no clue what most is, and you're just buying in to steriotypes. Perhaps you should take a second look at things bud, you are only looking at small percentage of things.

Hrm... I love steak, and Ill eat it every day I can get it, even Friday (why in the world do you think that you cant eat steak on fridays?) I read maxim, though I prefer Stuff and FHM. Though I must say I dont know any Judas Priest, then again I dont know much music by the author.

Yes God loves you and is faithful even if you arnt.


Djnn, you can be the best person in the world, you can live to just about perfection, but without accepting Jesus you will not be going to heaven.

Mankind is confused in the truth, love and compassion department. Look at the world we live in today.

Take the sniper case in the DC/Maryland area, people killing people just for the fun of it.

In Africa, people raping babies just because they think it will rid them of AIDs.

How many examples do we have to come up with?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:Its not about accepting Jesus as in the messiah, a prophet, or as just a man. It doesn't take believing in life to be alive. Same as it doesn't meen having a requirment to have blind faith in Jesus and his truth to reach Heaven. When you get there let me know what you see...people of every religion, every race, every belief system. And even Jesus once said I don't remember the line or verse so I'll paraphrase,"on faith alone you will not enter my kingdom"Now how many people do you know talk to Jesus because if you do you'll know that he was a man that accepted all religions and all faiths so if you trying to say that he would reject someone from his unconditional unlimited love I would have to say that I think you took something the wrong way.
-Djinn


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
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Posted:It does say something similer to what you said. So you are right, you can not go to heaven on faith alone. It does take actions, but those actions are done on faith. Faith is a nessesity for entering the Kingdom of God.

No Jesus was not accepting of all religions. No he wont reject someone, unless they reject him first! There is only one way to get to Heaven, that is through Jesus. That is how I know that that other Jesus was not accepting of other religions.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Djnn, you can be the best person in the world, you can live to just about perfection, but without accepting Jesus you will not be going to heaven.

Mankind is confused in the truth, love and compassion department. Look at the world we live in today.There's something hilarious about the juxtaposition of those two paragraphs

quote:No Jesus was not accepting of all religions. No he wont reject someone, unless they reject him first! There is only one way to get to Heaven, that is through Jesus. That is how I know that that other Jesus was not accepting of other religions.Time to re-read the Good Samaritan, Ray


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:You know I have a funny story about the last time I was in Heaven, I met up with Micheal and we were walking down the streets. Just as it always is there is laughter and singing, Children dancing in the streets, Everyone togther having a groovy time, love. Ahhh, It's really something, but anyway- so we're walking down this street and we pass by people of all religions and all beliefs, There are gods and goddesses of every nation of the world togther in oneness. And then we come up to this amazingly large wall and Archangle Micheal pulls his finger to his lips,"Shhhhhhh." I look at him in amaziment and quietly asked,"Why, what's on the other side of that wall?" He looks at me and said,"Its the Catholics. They still think their the only ones up here."


When Jesus died of our sins remember what he said on the cross,"Forgive them for they know not what they do."
This is when the gates of heaven opened to all.
And Jesus would never turn away anyone no matter the religion. I'm not saying that worshoping his isn't a good thing but if I had a different name for Jesus and I kept true to the path of love and compassion do you not feel like my love would be just as good as your's. Are we not all made in the likeness of God, are we All not equal, The Sinners and the Saints. We are all unconditionally loved but God. UNCONDITIONALLY!!!
That means that rejecting someone because of their beliefs or religion(conditions) is out of the Queston.
Unconditional is hard thing to remember about because through out life we have been taught nothing but conditioning
"The Gates of heaven are open to those who are
child-like." Child-like is refering to how a child loves before they know of right and wrong or good and bad, A Childs love is unconditional untill taught otherwise which is often done at a very early age(don't talk to strangers ect...) Isn't God a stranger, Aren't your parrents Strangers? Aren't you a stranger to yourself?
Look within and re-evaulate every action, every motive, every thought you have ever had and then look at yourself without a single judgment. And throw the first stone then If your still feeling holy. I don't want you to do this to bring up issues so that you can feel un-loved but rather the oppisite see yourself in all your faults arisen to the surface and embrace them with the unconditional love and forgivness the God will always give you and then look at your enemys and share this wonderful love with them too. Unconditionally loveing all isn't easy with a closed heart.
truely open yourself to God by Not Judging
This starts with Judging your way as the only way
Do this with love and not only your Heart but your eyes, ears,tounge,fingers, and mind will be opened
We'll all meet There so I'll be seeing you soon
And soon to me is but a lifetime away.
With love and Light,
Christopher


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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:I think I mis phrased something at the end of that last one. And it's a bit important so I'll re-iderate it.

Judge not

It is said over and over and over and over and over untill the page turns and then its over and over and over again.

Saying I'm right, Is a call of Judgment
Saying Jesus is the Only way to Heaven
(even if it's true) would still be a Judgment Call
Time to look at that one again

If I were Jesus ,which we all are, Above all people would you forgive yourself first for Judging, Nope
Don't do it above all people, Nobody is Above anyone
So Forgiving one self can be done just as forgiving another

Anyway Its really nice outside and the winds and trees are calling me to come play
so I must go.
In Love and Light to You all,
Djinn


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Okay Frosty, the Good Samaritan, was a parable told to explain who ones neighbor was. It was not Jesus' way of saying... "Believe whatever you want... its all good!"

Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Light and no man can come to the Father except through me." He also said, "If you acknowlege me befor man, I will acknowlege you before my Father."

Yes anyone can go to Heaven, but there is only one (1) road. There are no shortcuts, there are no other gods, or religion. Ever see the TV show/movies Highlander? There can be only one.

No other god will get you into heaven, sorry. There is only one path of enlighenment and that is Jesus.

I dont know how many other ways I can say this.

Look, I am not saying that there is only one way to heaven, Jesus is. Jesus is God, God is Jesus. God is the only one that can truly judge someone. God being Jesus, Jesus said that there is only one way to heaven. Therefor Jesus can make that judgment. I am just repeating the truth.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:Jesus also said that in the Breaking of the Bread and Blessing of the Wine that he is in all of us, WE ARE ALL ONE. So if you like to take him word for word wouldn't that mean that the path to heaven is through eachother, that god dwells within us all. To keep the body, mind, and spirit of this life pure and holy and to honor and respect it is the path to Heaven this is the path through Jesus through God. He never once said start a religion based on my life and I'll reject all who don't follow this religion. He wanted people to follow his teachings To follow his example of pure acceptance of all and love towards thy enemy. Turn the other cheek. To love others as thyselves. So if you reject others because of their beliefs your rejecting part of yourself.WE are All ONE. Its not a figure of speach. We are the same person with the same mind heading toward the same place taking the same road. Just because it looks different and sounds different doesnt seperate it from this oneness.

And again if you want to take a closer look at it Heaven is union with God So wouldn't that make it Possible to create Heaven on earth through Divine union with your Mate or better jet with your enemy.
If instead of starting Crusades to convert we all dropped our differences and shared in worldly Unity and Peace do you truely think that Jesus would be like wo wo wo wait a second hold your horses your all so po to be worshoping me not making peace on earth.
Following Jesus doesn't mean standing where he physically stood does it?
Following Jesus is following in his path to love.
And love has no limits
unless you create them with your judgments


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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Light and no man can come to the Father except through me."

Lets break this one up so that you can actually see what he saying here.

"I am"-this is the Universal declatation of self`
It's Jesus statment of his Godhood.
"the Way" the path to the lord my god is through a open heart, (love and forgivness)
"the Truth" is the word of God, re-read Gennisis and you'll Know what the word refers to.
"The light" Don't dim the light of the heart when walking in darkness, Love all and My Light will always shine through you.
"And no Man can come to the father except through me"
this does not mean that you need to litterly walk through Jesus its an implication of Following Jesus' love to Reach beyond man and unite with your heavenly host and to manifest this love in life not long after death.

I'm off to go do some reiki work
Intresting thing is that Jesus used this healing modality along with many others to manifest his miricals on earth. Of all his teachings why wouldn't they of taught you this in catholic school. It took me many years of catholic trainning to see where it creates limits and judgments and it may be comming a bit fast for you bu in time you'll open up to it. And Jesus will be there too.


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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:"No other god will get you into heaven, sorry. There is only one path of enlighenment and that is Jesus."

Here's a completely hypothetical thought pattern...
Let's assume there is a god, and long, long ago, he made a bunch of people and they were strewn all over his new terranium, which he called earth. Now, all of these people had a concept of god, an all powerful, creative, spiritual force. OK so far? Now imagine that one group of people called their concept Jesus, and another group called the same concept Allah, and yet another group called the very same thing Shiva...each one had the same, exact basic principles and ideas, "Be kind and groovy to others" but they just had different names and methodologies. If these silly creatures were all worshipping' the same entity, just calling him different names, I ask, what's the difference? Pronunciation? Language? The Neighborhood? Am I going to Hell 'cause I can't speak Latin?

So if Jesus can be God and God can be Jesus, why can't Jesus be Mohammed, or could Jehovah be Buddha? Like Rufus, the 13th apostle said, it's the message that's important.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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kristiboy
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Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 2nd Aug 2002
Total posts: 23
Posted:I think I said this somewhere else on hop recently...humans would be better to exlore the infintite potential of humankind, rather than walk blindy into a restricting faith.
Although I'm a non-religious person, I do respect faith and the benefits it can deliver.


If you talk you can sing. If you walk you can dance.

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
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Posted:Djnn hit the nail on the head, and explained it in a much more straightforward fashion then I had goin.

Prom, that is one explanation. Another way to look at it is each had a different experience of the ultimate and without continuing ran back to preach to everyone else on what they had found. For instance, someone had an experience of the architypal "form" and claimed "Man is made in the form of God"... interesting enough to look at, I mean some GUY has this vision of a MAN... what would have happened if it had been a woman? Would a woman have a vision of a MAN or of a WOMAN as the architypal form? What about a dog or cat, what would they see? Later someone has another vision and feels a deep love for this "God" and runs back to preach about hippy love and stuff. Another sees past that and calls it "Freedom from attachment". Basically, varying degrees of enlightenment. If that is the case, why stop there? Is enlightenment then a goal or a process of questioning and exploration?

Now back to that time thing... yes the clock would need a prime mover if we look at time linearly. If however we view time as a creation of our perception, as was suggested, then it needs no beginning or end, it just "is". Or just "isn't", either way, and needs no creator. Or you can look at the creator as being perception. So what are we then, just time perceiving itself?

Arg, I'm rambling. I'm going to bed before my head thinks up a billion more questions to ask. Night folks.


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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:"are we just time precieving itself"
now if we are time, and in this state of preception that we are currently in wouldn't this state change or evolve into a new state something that hasn't ever happened before or within this absolute state of being are we already the totality of the all and yet nothing and just unaware of it? Even so would it make a difference to who you are now if you knew the truth?
How would it change your life if you one moment, even a solarity moment, fully opened up to the absolute in all. If you became fully aware that your are now only time precieving itself and are indeed eternal, would that lead you to care less for this instant, this preception,this life that we're all living, or would seeing your true self this loving oneness inspire you to drop everything your doing, quit the job you don't go to anyway, drop all the addictions that are not of your highest vibration.
If the truth was open to you would you follow it?
Really think about it
because chances are most people wouldn't
their to attached to life
their to attached what they think is important
Review: What's important in my life?
a. My beautiful girlfriend who I wanted for my Whole life and finally recieved.
b. My family that kicked me out when I was a troubled teen but now that I've see far more that I can explain here and changed everything in my life has finally accepted me as one of their own.
c. All the gifts and tallents that I've trained in endless hours in endless ways to achieve my ultimate form of expression.
d.My car I don't own
e. Everything within the physical life that I like or would like to own somepoint in my life.
Nope none of that's important...
I am attached to all of those things but none of them are what is truely important but at the same time their only whats improtant.
When you have no attachments you desire not you want not your no longer in need of the physical world because you've trancended this earthly state of being and are free to leave this life with a simple choice of releasal.
But there is still much more to learn from life
So in seeing whats not important because its an attachment to life what is then consireded important and why are we crawling through life as a thought or a preception if we are already fully complete.
Because we can
Because simiply for the fun of it
Its like a day in the park that lasts a lifetime
Enjoy it while it last.
Bring that good old love in in a new way
HAVE A GROOVY TIME AS TIME,
-djinn


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Djnn
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Location: flames of the netherlands
Member Since: 11th Sep 2003
Total posts: 79
Posted:"I am attached to all of those things but none of them are what is truely important but at the same time their only whats improtant."
Now wheni say their what's important it my way of saying their all the reason why I'm alive. I'm not alive to remove myself from life I'll do that when I'm dead or when I ascend this plane or reality or whatever it may be to you.
My life simple comes down to this,
-Bringing love and light to the Planet-
It's my purpose that was reveiled to me so it all I live for.
Alot of things happen to fall into this and so be it.
We'll I'm off for a another day spinning in the park
Much love and light to you all, all the time
-Djinn


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Djnn... bud, no. Jesus did not mean that he is in all of us when he broke the bread and drank the wine.

It was symbolic of his broken body and spilled blood, for the forgivness of our sins.

Now the Holy Spirit is in all of us, but that came later on the day of Penticost.


Well Rufus, was wrong, all the apostles were black (well atleast they wernt white hehe). hehehe thats what cracked me up about that heheh.

In your hypothetical situation, then there would be no problem calling that god whatever you wanted to. You could call him Raymund Phule and it wouldnt matter! So in your situoation it is all good. (this is a very good question mind you )

To answer your question, Jesus is not Mohammed for the same reason I am not Prometheus. Two differnt people. One (Jesus) happend to be the Son of God. Muhammed, was a mere profit. A good man, but he wasnt perfect. He didnt die for the sins of all mankind. The same goes for anyother name you could put in there. However, Jesus was called Messiah and Emanuel. Differnt names are one thing, differnt people is another.

Kristiboy, Christianity isnt restricting, it is freedom in its purest form. I am not restricted by anything, but choose not to do things because I feel they are wrong.

Ill take on the rest of that later, I got some work to do


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
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Posted:Attachment works two ways though ya see. I have no desire to detach from my family and friends because I don't wish to hurt them. Many of them would not understand. If I had that experience would I want to detach then? That is a tough cookie. IF that happened, I think that I would actually yes, if I felt it was right. If I had that experience, and I trully had reached the state of mind needed FOR it, then it would be very likely however that I already HAD detached already. It's a catch-22 statement, and one that I do not have enough experiential knowledge to answer. I actually want to go spend a summer being a forest ranger in some remote area all by myself in order to freely explore this side of my spiritual path.

Not to mention, that I know a Buddhist who is doing this right now. I have not seen him in a year, since he quit his job and disappeared to live the life of an astetic. I have no fear for him because I think he trully was of the nature to do so, and it made sense for him. I am no where near that point, so I can't say for myself. However this is a clear example of how it IS possible...

In fact, many Vedic philosophies seperate the human life span into eras for just the purpose of allowing for detachment. Education, Carerr / Parenting, and Astetic Retirement free from all worries and attachments. Living the last years of my life in full practice of my beliefs... ahh there really is something fantastic about the sound of that.

If time is considered a single object and we are its consciousness, think of it like your own consciousness of your body. Concentrate really hard on your navel. Really, really hard to the point of one-pointedness there. Are you aware of the totality of your other body parts at that moment? So with Time perceiving itself. And if time is a loop with no beginning or end (Moving your consciousness around your body essentially forever), then it would constantly continue one repeating itself, the same events over and over with no real purpose or spontinaity since as soon as Time relizes it knows everything it realizes it knows nothing and starts all over. Haha, the more you know, the less you know, extended to infinity....


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