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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:what are the chances of discussing the philosphy of christainity here on hop. it would be nice if those who respond have actually read portions of the new testemant at least. please resist the temptation to write something against the mainstream churches of today or what terrible things have been done in the name of christainity. please only comment on the philosophy written in the good book.

i want to start this thread because about 4 months ago i began reading the N.T. (new testament) and was surprised at the concepts and ideas i discovered. it remindered me of the eastern religions like hinduism and buddism. comfort can't be found in the material world, i'll have to find this scpriture later. their is one force/element which is behind the existence of all things Col 1:15-17. that the turth can be found within you Luke 17:21 John 7:38 John 14:17 Galations 4:6. and the spirit will teach you all wisdom Eph 1:17 Col 2:2

tell me what your veiw of these scpriture is and others. i am not a christain, jesus isn't my guru but the world veiw is very similar to what i beleive or at least i can eaily see it in the n.t.


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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:charles my gemini friend there is little history in the N.T. there are mainly the teaching of jesus in the gospels, though the use of stories explaining what is important, arguments against the jewish rabbi of the day an overall philosophy can be seen.

paul in some of his more reflective letters writes quite philosphically. if you are interested read the 4 books after 2 corthians in a modern day english version

frostypaw your comments are interesting but it would seem you have read little or nothing of the N.T. i encourage your mind to explore this grand book with your open mind.

Nice Rozi, my book says 'evil from the time of his youth' i took it to mean after childhood we become independant people the trouble of life begins. this scrpiture is what god says after the flood. even though people are bad i wil never again destory them as i have now = god.

i think we are essentially good. i mean even people who do bad things only do them for very short periods of time. a murderer only spent 1 second or maybe 10 minutes in the act of murder. i am sure they did many good things for people thoughout there lives.

we are good, in this context jews look for the bad because they must live by the law and so avoid bad, hence they are always looking for it. thats why jesus did away with the law because it brought sin into the world, ie. nobody is prefect. christain thought promotes the idea of letting the spirit correct your ways Eph 4:23-24 and having concern for others Phili 2:1-2 4:8


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
Posted:apart from Psalms, what parts are not historical?

The entire NT is a description of events by different people. Like diary entries...not once is the Reader acknowledged directly and 'told' what to do.

It may feel like a lesson and have philosophical thoughts in it, but they are historical thoughts.

Even in the OT, the story of Moses bringing the tablets down does not say anything like "and so you (the reader) must obey these commandments". It simply described what happened to the historical charcaters as it did.

That is the beauty of the Bible, it shows through actions and doesn;'t preach directly. Any preaching is done by the soul/conscience/mind of the person reading it.


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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:charles read the damn book!!!!!

John 20:30 Jesus preformed many other miracles for his disciples, and not all of them are written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you will put your faith in jesus as the messiah and the son of god. if you have faith in him you will have true life. looks like direct acknowledgement to me, or am i interpreting that out of context to prove myself right.

1John 2:1 My children, I am writing this so you won't sin. its a letter charles, written to people acknowledged by the writer.

What about this one charles!! Romans 2:29 '...And besides, you should want praise from god and not from humans.' shit to me it reads as if the reader is being told what to and is even acknowledged.

or Romans 6:19 'But know you must make every part of your body a slave to god, so that you will belong completely to him.

So in Hebrews 1:3 ...By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together... it seems like apeice of philosophy that if placed together with the other peices of philosophy in the N.T. makes a whole philosophy(philosophy begin a way of veiwing the world and how to operate in it).

charles you have made it totally clear you haven't read the book. read it before making more silly comments like the ones you have been making.


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:frostypaw your comments are interesting but it would seem you have read little or nothing of the N.T. i encourage your mind to explore this grand book with your open mind.Actually I've read many different versions of the bible cover to cover, and many other religious texts - something which you seem to have omitted in this thread - and which maybe you should research before thinking you know squat about the philosophy in the bible....

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
PSyB, dont worry, I may get angry but you gotta try pretty hard to really offend me. However, I dont think that God would allow the Word that guides His people to be corrupted. It just doesnt add up to me.
Cool m8, just wanted to make sure I wasn't causing a wailing and a gnashing of teeth!

I'm gonna steer clear of posting in this one, as I'm not qualified to debate Bible texts...

tbh it does look like ppl are straying off topic again. Does whether the Bible is an historical account or not, effect the overall philosphy presented in the book? Just some food for thought...

but I will be checking in on this one...
I do enjoy a good theological debate...

take it easy.. and no hitting!

PsyB.

[ 13. September 2003, 04:06: Message edited by: Psylent_BoB ]


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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:Jesus was trying to set the jews straight, he was a jew himself. If you read why jesus used stories Mark 13:10-15 it refers back to gods promise. this type of arguement is pretty common. try Mark 13:34&35 still on the story theme but covering a different aspect fulfuling the prophsy of the jews.

this one is important Mat 10:5&6 ..stay away from the gentiles and don't go to any Samaritan town.6 Go only to the people of isreal, because they are like a flock of lost sheep. it wasn't until paul took the message to the gentiles (20 years later) that major problems arose, because those converted didn't have a background knowledge of the law.

In Mat 5:17-18 he says that didn't come to do away with the law but to give it its full meaning.

frostypaw if this is so(you having read the bible a number of times) share for the benifit of us all. i started this tread to explore christainity and mentioned that it had similarities with other religions but i wanted to explore deeper the gust of christainity. why not do that and then draw back and see its relationship to the others. as people have said it is based in a point in time, so it has elements, and perpahs very important elements particular to itself that would be nice to disscus first.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I honestly like the old testiment better. The sequel's never as good as the original. Those ox laws are priceless.

And Deuteronomy 23:1 is the best line in any holy book I've ever read.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:NYC i like it. word is at that time men worshipping pagan gods cut of their members as i sign of devotion to their god. those bloody pagans get carried away with try to control the world.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Hmmm...I have to agree with what Charles said in that the philosophy of any of these texts is in it's entirety. The versions come about because people omitted what they did not agree with, thusly changing the overall philosophies presented.
In reading not only the King James Version, O.T., N.T., Qabbalah, The Book of Mormon and many other texts, both Christian and non, throughout time they change, and so does language.
These all have impacts on the overall philosophy.
The OT I can purchase in a store today is not even close to that of my grandmother. And then there are the stories that were removed throughout time. How about The Harlett By The Side of the Road? Lot and His Daughters? What makes these any less worthy of being told, for they too have moral implications and philosophies, which as a story are very strong and in this collection of tales becomes even stronger. The OT god is very different from the NT, so then why are they all not taken into account when looking at Judeo-Christian philosophy?

Overall I think that, like any story that is handed by oral tradition, along the way it has been bastardized. The fact that these tales were written a couple hundred years after the death of Christ not withstanding, difference and changes in language (does anyone remember when gay meant happy????) really does effect interpretation (for example...Virgin in it's original form means UnWed, and Maiden is someone who never had sex...but time changed those around a bit, and maiden is no longer common used language, so the interpretation of "The Virgin Mary" then also changes), or the fact that at this point people did not believe the world was as big as it is, or round, or knew a fraction of the scientific facts we know now, or the fact that even time was not standardized (people did not live long, so "ancient" was very different for them than for us, a year changed with geography, many literally meant around 40, etc.....) These all effect interpretations, and taking something written 1500 years ago in a literal modern translation is quite missing the point of it as any form of view into this historic cultural mindset.
It is akin to taking the ideals of the Kama Sutra Philosophy (not the sex part) and applying it to daily use in the US. Where am I to get a husband with an elephant so I can wash it daily? (it is a standard wifely duty in the philosophy book)
So which NT are we speaking of? The one published decades ago or the one published last year? Therefore I do not believe the philosophy is really holding to the true stories, whatever they actually were. HOWEVER, before I get flamed, like any other mythology or fable, it is grounded in truth somewhere. I think that in it's essence it has a well intended structure of morals and values, conveyed depending on who is interpretting it (another subject for another day). Therefore, as a philosophy for life, I think that the bible is very valid in many of it's tell-tales. They are cautionary fables based on the expansion of someone's actions to teach a lesson, like so many other urban legends, religions and beliefs.

Who can argue with being a good person? Several cultures have based their entire exsistence on this goal, to many different ends but it is always a good thing.

And Itsgottabe, before you try to even yell at me for going off topic... You yourself have requested that people not flame and yet you have been the most assertive voice in putting other people's opinions down. You have assumed things about others based on their own opinions and have been not so nice about displaying your assumptions. You need to take your own guidelines to heart and to this all I can think to say is "Judge not lest ye be judged".


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:i seem to recall that a new version of the bible was being realeased which had segements edited due to the findings in the dead sea scrolls.

has anyone seen the new version? is it that different? does it change new/old testiment more.

sorry if this is a bit off topic.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:pele nice to read your thoughts. sorry if you feel i flamed charles and others, i get just a tadd annoyed with people who say things that are plainly untrue regarding christainity, especially when they claim to be informed which i was able to show from quoting the some scripture that in all likely hood they have a limited knowledge of N.T. scripture.

the original greek which the N.T. was first written in is still avaible for all to read. So the notion that the N.T. of today being different or losing some main points or even the finer detail is weak. that is not to say the scripture we read today is a perfect copy of the orignal greek. greek and english are structured very differently. Its similar to translating japanese into english. scholars can and do translate these texts. if you read up on the subject you'll find out about the differing styles of argument and other literary devices used by writers of the N.T.

the bible talks at many different levels, that is the reason for there being many different christain groups, it is only natural that this should be the case. we all have different ablities. alot of differences in undderstanding is purely to do with a lack of knowledge of the times and context of the N.T. Unfortunatly for westerners today we like and demand certainty, objectivity at the expensense of subjectivity, so you have the situation where some people just beleive without understanding hence they can be made to look silly for beleiving things they can't or haven't got the ablity to explain.

the message that jesus brought was that the spirit was to be the teacher, this is from the gospels, John also says this in his letters. the stories in the N.T. are mostly based around christs importance and the relationship one should have with christ. all knowledge and wisdom is in christ, it is not in books. There are no quotes from the wisdom scrpiture(thats palsms and proverbs) in the N.T. they mostly come from the prophetic books, as jesus was fulfuilling jewish prophecy.

the hebrew bible and the O.T.(they are different intranslation and content) are books in which the wisdom is found within. follow the law.

As with any religous text if you are going to get a true understanding of the message for yourself you must read it many times as it can't be grasped in a one off reading.

people who are interested in these matters have had the same questions and thoughts as everybody responding on this board, and have been having them since these difficulties arose, which wasn't just yesterday. so if you want to find the answers you can do the research and find it out. its is only naturale and right to raise the questions you and others have raised, you can not answer them unless you rely on the work of others.

Pele if you had read the thread more carefully you would have notice in my first post i said i wasn't a christain and surprised at the philosophy contain within and its likeness to other relions that people in the west are turning to, buddism and the like.


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Again, Itsgottab (I apologize, I noticed I have been spelling your name incorrectly), you are making assumptions. I did indeed read your initial post, a few times through. And I did respond to your initial questions.

And as far as translations, I, in fact know people who do translations for money...from many languages. ALL languages have changes from year to year...let alone over the course of decades and centuries. The original Greek of the NT is not, in fact, the same Greek of today. Take a theology/philosophy course in Uni/college and you will quickly discover this. Have a long drawn out conversation with a theology major and they will be happy to illustrate the paths the original text has travelled to be the versions that it is today. Anyone who does translations will tell you that they are never exact because languages do not exactly match, even those as closely related as the Latin based languages. As someone who can read Spanish, I can tell you this. It is on this that I base my wording. ALL translations are made as close approximations to what the original wording is.

Now you are changing you topic. I know what I believe about the philosophies, and have stated it. As have others. In quoting you are not at all proving that you have read or in fact even understand anything. What you are proving is that you can open a book and select a few words to quote, of which the bibles are full of such wonderful phrases and passages. Do not confuse the many of us approaching the complete philosophy instead of extracted words as our ignorance because you could not be further from the truth or more insulting. You are, again, making assumptions that do not hold up based on viewpoints and opinions that differ from yours, and are very much turning a discussion into a debate. If you want this discussion to continue, I encourage you to stop responding as if you are the only one who has ever read or researched not only Christian philosophy but that of other cultures as well.

You just condemned many people who believe in different "levels" of the NT to ignorant interpretation, and yet what all religious texts really need from their followers (not readers, followers) is faith. Therefore there is no ignorance, just a belief on a different level than you. It does not mean they are any less informed than you in truth, because there is no archeological-scientific fact based answers to much of which these texts provide as truths. It simply means that they hold a different perspective, in another "level" as you call it, and that is what freedom of religion is based on... the ability to freely interpret and believe. All interpretations are created based on our own knowledge, experiences, wants, hopes, desires...we read into these texts to fill a void in our own lives, and that void is different for everyone. Go into a church, using the same text. Select a passage and ask each member of the congregation what it means, what is the intention and philosophy of it and each will give you something different, even subtly. Get to know those people and it will be found that it is an intensely personal thing for them. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is what makes our world wonderful, colorful and so diverse...however.. you have yet to explain what you think the PHILOSOPHY, or the faith and beliefs are in the NT, or any other religious text. Instead, you are quoting and throwing out explainations which those involved in this discussion obviously do not need. Please answer your own question before you proceed, without quoting or explaining verses and chapters. How do you view the text from the non-judeo-christian perspective? How does it speak to you?

To reiterate my personal opinion, I feel that ALL religious texts are derrived from stories, much along the lines of the telephone game, which are eventually blown up into the levels of folk tales, fables, mythologies and in modern times urban legends. These attempt to teach and to help plot an ideal for living. I have yet to read *any* religious text that does not make sense, does not inspire me, does not in some way move me, including the NT. They are remote views into a culture and history so removed from our own that they felt the need to cling to these ideals and immortalize them, insodoing effecting us today. I think at their core the overall philosophy of leading a good life to achieve an ascension is very inspiring. I feel that some books take these lessons and morals a little too far for my taste but I understand why people need them in their own lives.

I am not Christian either, though I was brought up as a Spiritualist, which follows the writings in Jesus and the Mastership, along with the bible.

I will always have questions in theology/philosophy/religious matters..for many reasons both based in logic and a few very personally based. But I have *alot* of faith that is not, nor will ever be, grounded in one particular pantheon...because in my eyes, they are all very much the same at their core and they are all correct for those who need them.


Dentrassi, I too have read about that and watched shows about it on the History Channel and Discovery Channel. I have yet to even see a copy of the book, let alone read it, though not for lack of interest.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:

[ 16. September 2003, 18:52: Message edited by: Itsgottab ]


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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:Can it be agreed that the central tenet of the new testament is "love thy neighbour"?

The old testament was primarily focused upon what and why to obey, full of violence and vengance - it was not as friendly a religion - and christianity sprung from that

Christianity offered a new perspective, that of forgiveness, and that's where the problems started it seems - "love they neighbour" is just too damn vague for people

The Dead Sea Scrolls have been mentioned - the link to Thomas's Gospel should be interesting to those people, that's from those... and it shatters an awful lot of the 'pomp and circumstance' of the church, removing any need for the actual church itself and giving far more focus to one of itsgotstab's favourite things - that the spirit is in you and around you everywhere and it will teach you - not in buildings of wood and stone and at the hands of other men

And it's obvious why that would be unpopular to a church that was putting out bibles - you don't want to be publishing a religious text that says your organisation shouldn't exist!

Since then the various versions of the bible have altered the boundaries of 'love thy neighbour' - the murder/kill difference, the gay thing, the 'spilling of seed' etc - what used to be considered instant damnation becomes ok and vice versa - and all the 'versions' disagree on these, which is why i'm just about ready to throw the lot out - who is a man to set the rules?

To shift religion suddenly - this is one main reason I like bhuddism - so much is based on you and nothing to do with bhudda, he's just the chap in the story you're reading and constantly the message is to look and feel the world around you, the pattern is there, the right thing to do is there - love thy neighbour and the world's energy/spirit will guide you

Indeed this they all agree on... Islam, with it's incredible range of rules and conditions for every aspect of life, is again love thy neighbour - BUT it's shouldered with a massive burden - the language is ****ed up. It's not ancient unknown dialects but instead the complete set of 'impossible' sentences in arabic. Arabic sentences can have style, meaning and grammar - but never all three at once (please god don't ask why) - some sentences DO have all three - and every single sentence in the Koran is one of those

But it means it's all poetic waffle - open to interpretation

And people do - three main sects varying from the majority 'love thy neighbour' group to pretty extreme 'all other religions should die' variety - hence the huge range of reaction we've seen with the recent political drama

Yet still... what's winning out? What's doing the best for humanity?

From what I can see it's when everyone drops their afedavits and extensions and comes to agree, that all we really need is "love thy neighbour".

Back to christianity... to forgive thomas, to die for mankind's sins, to befriend one and all without judgement, with forgiveness and open arms and mind - it's everything Jesus lived for - and surely what we should live for, not some other person's version of events, or someone's letters to people in Corinth or elsewhere. Abstracted from the stories that's what stands out - and whether you believe in damnation or not, who can object to the way of life


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:pele said this "I feel that ALL religious texts are derrived from stories, much along the lines of the telephone game, which are eventually blown up into the levels of folk tales, fables, mythologies and in modern times urban legends. These attempt to teach and to help plot an ideal for living."

if you already think this about All religous texts, how can they be anything else? doesn't that then lead you to have a level of understanding(not on a scale of 1 to 10 but just at a state) other people read relgious texts differently with different understandings and knowledge so are in a different state. pele because they have faith weather they are ignorant or not doesn't matter. but that doesn't stop them from being ignorant from anothers 'level'

if you were to talk about a book or a movie, wouldn't you talk about certain scenes or characters, what they did and the like. how could you talk about it other wise?

The N.T. philosophy is essentailly to love all people equally, to do this you mustn't follow the desires of the flesh but the spirit and be giving to those in need. this comes from the understanding that God is in christ and christ is in all things.

Another important point is christainity isn't for everybody, jesus says the road is narrow only a few people can get in... god will choose you to be a follower...jesus came here to turn son against father.

Christainity is firmly rooted in a form of jewish thought, editted to fit the needs of christainity.


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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:Faith cannot be a requisite for understanding written word. That simply makes no sense. Perhaps to understand the power of a particular God, but not the scriptures.
Obviously things such as faith healing, voodoo and the phenomena of the stigmata appearing on the bodies of true believers cannot possible happen without belief.
These things are quite different from comprehension of textual prose or poetry.

To truly understand the full content of these things, you have to dig deeper than just taking what is found in the scriptures and interpreting it based on the ideas and feelings of modern day life. These texts were written at a specific time for a specific audience. That MUST be kept in mind when having any of these discussions. The way these texts were treated, translated and edited over time is also important. (I gave the example of the importance of the Apocrypha in an earlier post.)


Luke 18:25
Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Mark 10:25
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Matthew 19:24
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


It must be said that a camel going through the eye of a needle is an impossibility, right?

However, someone living in the region the Crusaders called the Holy Land would have read this quite differently.

In old Jersusalem the smallest gate into the city was called the Eye of the Needle. Caravans wishing to enter the city through this gate could do so. The camels would have to be unloaded because the gateway was low as well as narrow, then they could pass through single file, then the bales of goods could be reloaded onto camelback for the journey to the market, merchants dwelling or whatever.

This kind of example is not the exception, but the rule in a text so full of allegory. To understand the full meaning of such texts you have to look beyond the scriptures to historical texts and archaeological record to get a richer sense of what was meant.

People can quote chapter and verse all day without any real comprehension of what they really mean.

Raph


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raphael96:


To truly understand the full content of these things, you have to dig deeper than just taking what is found in the scriptures and interpreting it based on the ideas and feelings of modern day life.

Luke 18:25
Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

In old Jersusalem the smallest gate into the city was called the Eye of the Needle. Caravans wishing to enter the city through this gate could do so. The camels would have to be unloaded because the gateway was low as well as narrow, then they could pass through single file, then the bales of goods could be reloaded onto camelback for the journey to the market, merchants dwelling or whatever.

That's a good point.

Still, the quote does hold up pretty well even without the full understanding don't you think?

i.e. the quotes saying that a rich man can't achieve the kingdom of heaven,

and, in the context of the original facts we get the understanding that to pass throught the gate, a man/womans riches must be left behind.

I'm not saying there's not a subtle distinction, but, given the dissparity between the image of an actual needle eye and a gate, the meaning seems to hold up well.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by frostypaw:

The Dead Sea Scrolls have been mentioned - the link to Thomas's Gospel should be interesting to those people, that's from those... and it shatters an awful lot of the 'pomp and circumstance' of the church, removing any need for the actual church itself and giving far more focus to one of itsgotstab's favourite things - that the spirit is in you and around you everywhere and it will teach you - not in buildings of wood and stone and at the hands of other men

Which is one of the huge reasons that people do not want it to come out. There is a feeling in many of the church leaders that it will confuse the masses and create havoc with the faithful, something with which I disagree.
There were also people who claimed it to be fake and that it is part of a conspiracy to bring down the organized religion. The shows I saw about this were quite intriguing indeed, and raised many interesting points on what a discovery would really do to organized religion. But that is another topic. I just wanted to acknowledge this.
*sorry for the tangent*


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:No Frosty, the entire tenent of the Bible is Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, body and streangth. For someone who claims to have read the Bible so many times I find it amazing that you missed it!

However through loving God with all your, heart mind, soul, body and streangth, you will love your neighbor as yourself.

There are letters in the NT there is also history, if you really want historical proof IE something found by archealogists you might not find any. I mean, the followers of Christ were not really held in high standers with the rest of the population of the world. They were quickly betrayed just as Jesus was. So I doubt you would find their names carved in stone like the pillar of kings that was found that had the names written in the exact same order as in the OT.

I have never read the dead sea scrolls, are they real? I dont know however read the first few lines of Revilation and you will see a darn good reason to not believe in them.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Exploring Christianity

I'll suggest that the answers people seek are not written in an old collection of books (aka "The Bible") which are not very historically correct at the best of times. The answers are in the way we live our lives, and the way we treat other human beings. My favourite NT story is The Good Samaritan. A simple tale, but one which sums up many of JC's teachings; in imho naturally.

You guys want it every which way. Like quote: however read the first few lines of Revilation and you will see a darn good reason to not believe in them.. Ooooo, we don't like that bit, so lets toss it out. OR, this "thou shalt not kill or was it thou shalt not murder" confusion. Clearly, what was meant was "not to take the life of another human being".

It also amazes me that people can quibble about the fine distinction b/t killing and murder, yet rigidly insist that the world was created in 7-calender days, which is clearly wasn't, or that life does not evolve, which it clearly does.

The question I would like to ask of knowledgeable biblical scholars is WHY is there no female deity in these Christian religions? And I don't mean Mary, who is obviously a saint, but not a deity ??? Was the female deity written out of the bible? Because for me, this is a missing link in this whole religious thingy.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

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Posted:'Jesus Lived in India': Good book. There is another called 'Buddha and Jesus: The parallel sayings' or something like that, also very good. If there is one underlying truth to everything, I am of the mind that all religions are just different interpetations, or different perceptions, of it.

A good example is the elephant and the five blind men. They each feel a different part of the elephant and each claims it to be something different from what he experienced, a wall (the side), a rope (the tail), a snake (the trunk), a piece of leather (the ear). They are all right in their own right, but they can't see the whole picture because they aren't capable of "seeing" the whole picture.

And the old testament, I believe somewhere in David, and I'm pulling this from another book, not directly, but I think it says "Know ye not that ye are God". Just as our thoughts are not seperate from us, we are not seperate from God. I think of it like God is dreaming reality, and we are aspects of himself. Just like many eastern religions believe that there is no duality, only the one underlying reality, Christianity can be interpreted this way too.

Since I look at spirituality this way, I think its important to study EVERY religion, not just one. I was raised Christian, have studied Taoism, Buddhism, Zen, a little Gnostic Christian / Dead Sea Scrolls, some Islamic, Wiccan, etc. The more and more I read, the more I can use to interpret the others, and a greater idea of the "big picture" I get from the multiple "blind" perspectives. Limiting ourselves to one persons opinion, regardless of what they have accomplished, is kind of silly to me, since I don't think truth can ever be reached at all. To claim one thing as truth without even having any personal experience with that truth seems like closed-mindedness...

But as I said, I don't think anyone is right. Not Jesus, not Moses, not Buddha, Lao Tzu seemed to have a good thing going but I think it takes a certain temperment to be Taoist. I don't even think I am right. These are simply what I've learned, and some of my insights ARE from personal experience through meditation and various practices. Eastern practices (and some Western, like praying for instance) believe that meditation brings us closer to our true self, shich is identical with Atman/Brahman or the universal underlying reality. Thus knowing yourself, is knowing "God" or "reality" or whatever you want to refer to it as.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Stone:
Exploring Christianity

The question I would like to ask of knowledgeable biblical scholars is WHY is there no female deity in these Christian religions? And I don't mean Mary, who is obviously a saint, but not a deity ??? Was the female deity written out of the bible? Because for me, this is a missing link in this whole religious thingy. In my opinion there is no female deity.

In the same way as there is no male deity.

Deity is not something that can possess gender.

Gender is determined by certain characteristics, such as the possession of male genitalia; I think it's safe to say that God doesn't have those.


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i8beefy2
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Posted:Stone: Actually I believe God is genderless. And "Adam" kind of resembles the Hindu god Shiva (Half male, half female split down the middle), as the Hebrew word which is translated as "rib" actually was "side", thus you get a picture of Adam being split in half, not just having a rib taken. Interesting.

Also interesting is that "God" is not used until the second chapter or something like that. The original Hebrew actually uses "In the beginning the gods..." and "gods" is used up until the next section, so it appears that the original translation is fudged right from the first five words... So the "literal translation" idea doesn't exactly hold... Not to mention that Hebrew has a large amount of hidden meaning and numerology behind it as well, and that every word and letter has its own meaning and interpetation. The literal words are not always the main meaing.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Good points, but was not man (Homo sapiens) created in the image of God?
quote:OWD suggests "Deity is not something that can possess gender."why not? I think there is more to it than differences in genitalia.

quote:i8beefy2 said "Also interesting is that "God" is not used until the second chapter or something like that. The original Hebrew actually uses "In the beginning the gods..." and "gods" is used up until the next section, so it appears that the original translation is fudged right from the first five words."Perhaps i8beefy2, the original translation is fudged from the second Chapter onwards.

Being brought up a Roman Catholic, I was taught that there were three parts to the one God: the father, son and holy ghost (spirit) but that does not explain why Christian religions are patriarchal in nature and I think missing key elements. Like I knew something was wrong with the RC religion and when I saw this doco (another one ) it really put many things into perspective.

ABC TV Compass It ain't Necessarily So- Part 1. part 2, part 3

quote:From the doco - It Ain't Necessarily So "Although there clearly was a smaller kingdom of Israel at a later date, there seems to be decisive evidence that the Israelites worshipped a goddess, a consort of their main deity, right up until their destruction in 722 BC."


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Itsgottab


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Posted:the murder/killing thing. numbers 35:16-34 In deut. 17:2-7 it encourages the jews to kill people who worship other gods. So killing isn't wrong to a christain or jew.

some interesting stuff about the reasons for going to war in deuteronomy 7:16-26 and the laws of going to war deut. 20:1-20

Raymond the message is the same, love god and other with your whole self, but in the O.T. the reason is the law given to moses in the N.T. it is by following the spirit who is christ.

stone in my bible god is mentioned in the first verse, 'In the beginning God created the heacens and the earth...' and references continue to be made thoughout the first chapter.

Some people argue that the 'image' bit is related to the perfection, which eve and adam lost when they sinned. jesus was also created in gods image. god and jesus begin perfect in this case.

Although god is referred to as the father and him, as a male, that was for the common jews, the father in everyday life was the provider law maker, you have to explain things in terms people will understand.

to me god is spirit that is beyond gender. jesus talks about the future life saying their will be no marriage and people will be like angels mat 22:30 paul also says we will have spirit bodies in heaven cor 15:48, god begin in christ who is in all things (col 1:19 & 2:9) makes it difficult to see god as a man also. i realise that doesn't disprove god begin a man though.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:Dunno, I've always found the The Ten Commandments fairly straight forward to understand. Like, thou shalt not kill, means that U should not kill other human beings. Hey, it doesn't say said "though shalt not commit adultery except when inebriated" does it? Am I missing something?

How many versons of the bible are there anyhow?

[ 17. September 2003, 17:41: Message edited by: Stone ]


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
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Posted:quote:No Frosty, the entire tenent of the Bible is Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, body and streangth. For someone who claims to have read the Bible so many times I find it amazing that you missed it!Do you know the difference between the Old and New Testament?

They're quite different

One's all about worshipping god, the other is all about other people and how to live your life well. Quite different focus, but it does vary from translation to translation how "WORSHIP GOD OR DIE" the NT is... which is where i wish i was still at my parents with access to my books

i8beefy mentioned the blind men and the elephant concept, that's pretty much what I think too - hell if people can believe the world is flat for how many hundreds of thousands of years, and that was a matter of faith as noone could travel around it then, then who's to say our whole concept of god isn't as crazed?


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Itsgottab


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Posted:There are exceptions to the ten commandments.

it seems it is o.k. to kill those worshipping others gods. deut 17:2-7

Moses said in Numbers 31 that god wanted the jews to attack the Midian people. he then got angery that the army didn't kill the woman because they were the ones who pushed the worship of another god onto the good clean jews. 'kill all boys and girls who have had sex, but don't kill those girls who haven't had sex, keep them for yourselves'.
there is then a cleanesing ritual for those soldiers who had killed.

As for sex: the story of Lots wife(when sodom and gomorrah were destroyed because 'Bad' people lived there, as lot and his wife were leaving Lots wife looks back and gets turned to salt) is followed by a less well known stroy. Lots daughters decide to get 'daddy' drunk so they can become pregant. On consecutive nights Lot unbeknown to himself inpreganted his two daughters, the children birthed the Moabite and Ammonite tribes(not part of the jewish 12 tribes)this is at Gensis 19:30-38

theres another story (gensis 38) about judah having sex with a prositute(for a moment) tamar who married one of his sons, but later died.


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

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Posted:Hmmm...I seem to remember having brought up the stories of Lot and His Daughters and The Harlott by the Side of the Road earlier to only have them dismissed/ignored by you Itsgottab. Now you use them in a defense? Interesting, especially concidering they have been removed from texts, and if you are going to argue the NT, should you not stick to stories in it? The version of the NT that I have has neither of these in it.

And, I have a really old bible here, to address the gender thing, which in Genesis states that "Gods created men in their image". I always found that fascinating because like Stone said, it changes to refer to a singular and as male. I simply came to the conclusion that the male aspect was because the society in which the bible was written was patriarchal, and that it can be quite difficult to wrap the mind around the plural as mere humans. I agree that I feel that diety is neither but more accurately (for me)encompasses both but is also all the aspects put together that the ancient polytheistic beliefs assigned gods to. All the evil and good rolled into one...because in truth, isn't that really human? To have qualities that are both male and female, just some are stronger and that tends to dictate which we are identified with. No one is truly pure and good, we all have a touch of something not nice....so if we were created in Gods image, then God is absolutely less than perfect, for if God was perfect and so omnipotent there would never have been sin, God would've been too powerful to allow that to happen. (notice that I do not at all believe in the Lucifer of the bible being the arch enemy type thing, because it directly contradicts God's omnipotence? To think that a mere fallen one could have power akin to God seems blasphemous!But it makes for a darn good soap opera-esque story!)

I do believe the dead sea scrolls are real, just as much as I believe that books that have been removed from the bible and changed, and the rosetta stone, etc. I can also see why organized religion would wet themselves at the prospect of the dead sea scrolls, as it alters the very structure and core of their mission. God suddenly goes from this ultimate being, almost a goal in life to being in everything, everywhere and being completely touchable no matter where you look. I know many who believe this way already (including myself), but my sister (Born Again Pentacostal Evangelist) would have a heart attack.... though they insist God visits them every Sunday until they pass out, but noone else 'cause they are right and others are wrong. I think it is hyperventilating making dellusions from trying to keep up with the singing and dancing.

Anyway....my .02 on that


Pele
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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

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Location: New York City, USA

Total posts: 899
Posted:It is ironic that after bringing up some of the problems with the edited and abridged scriptures that are contained in the NT, people continue to quote chapter and verse as a way of "backing up" views.

This is not really a discussion thread, it is a rant.

I much prefer discussions and open debates.

Raph


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