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Itsgottab
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Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:what are the chances of discussing the philosphy of christainity here on hop. it would be nice if those who respond have actually read portions of the new testemant at least. please resist the temptation to write something against the mainstream churches of today or what terrible things have been done in the name of christainity. please only comment on the philosophy written in the good book.

i want to start this thread because about 4 months ago i began reading the N.T. (new testament) and was surprised at the concepts and ideas i discovered. it remindered me of the eastern religions like hinduism and buddism. comfort can't be found in the material world, i'll have to find this scpriture later. their is one force/element which is behind the existence of all things Col 1:15-17. that the turth can be found within you Luke 17:21 John 7:38 John 14:17 Galations 4:6. and the spirit will teach you all wisdom Eph 1:17 Col 2:2

tell me what your veiw of these scpriture is and others. i am not a christain, jesus isn't my guru but the world veiw is very similar to what i beleive or at least i can eaily see it in the n.t.


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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Posted:Chronologically speaking, Islam IS the next update actually. Not only that, but you should go look up the significance of the number 19 in that text, the Koran. In fact, here ya go (http://www.tortuga.com/ur/quran.html), thats a good basic introduction to it. Basically, for any Fallible Man to have been able to write a book with that amount of mathematical "coincidence" in it is catagorically IMPOSSIBLE. It took the aid of a computer to find it at all. I mentioned this earlier, but I think it got skipped over in discussion...

Translation: http://www.submission.org/Q-T.html
br>A breif comparison of Buddhism, Christianity and Islam: http://www.tortuga.com/ur/UR-Frame-Idea.html
br>
There was another group of people in Biblical times who's faith was rock hard... they ended up crucifying an innocent man because of their beliefs, or maybe fear that their beliefs were being challenged. It was those people who DID have the open mindedness to examine a new doctrine that FOUNDED Christianity (Not that you're closed minded, just referencing)

Religion and science are not divergant. They are just different ways of looking at the same thing. One relies on taking the End and working backwards, the other on beginning with nothing and working up to the End. Both like to speculate. Both like to debate. Both are highly controversial. On centers on belief and feeling, the other on thought and reason. They both have the same goal, and they can both help the other to temper its own findings, and modify interpetations and meanings that may have been lost. Science does not have to be counter to spirituality, nay, it can very much help to CLARIFY spirituality. In the search for truth, nothing should be thrown away.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Dont get me wrong, I am not denying their similarities... frankly anybody can come up with a religion that is close to Biblical ideals.

I am not going to sit here and tell you what to believe, that is something that you must decide for on your own. What I will tell you, is that though many religions out there are similer, there is only one true God, there can be no others.

If I offer you a million dollars/pounds whatever... and I tell you that there is only one way to get that million... are you going to sit there and try to figure out another way?

Most would say no, though some would say yes.

A million dollars/pounds whatever is nothing compared to Heaven, yet people through out the ages have sought other ways to get there. Sorry, there is only one way.

Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Light and no man can get to the Father except through Me.


Spin it anyway you want folks, there is still only one path.

That is what I believe. If you dont, then thats your choice.


Science has done more to proove the Bible than to disprove. Name one theory of evoloution and I garunte you that science will disprove it. Yet science will never be able to disprove Creation. Interesting, isnt it?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:i will be honest - i havent read this entire argument, i simply dont have the time but from what i can gather it seems to be a yes/no argument.

i think religion has the right idea. however i think certain people take it too far and use it as an excuse for their own bad actions. they claim that it was all god's plan and therefore the individual has no responsibility for their actions.

basically, religion is ok, but it has been the cause and reason for so many wars, i dont know if its worth it.

i have a friend who is highly religious - he's a great guy, and he never preaches to the rest of my group who are 90% athiests. HE has the right idea. he doesnt discriminate against us. he lets us talk about what we believe and i think that religion should see that more. not want the other to burn in hell, but appreciate the other and accept that they have a different idea of hell.

i dont doubt that jesus lived, there is enough evidence documented to prove that a jesus character lived - however i dont believe he was necessarily the son of god. and i find the bible is out of date. its is *rather* (i would say very but i would get yelled at for that big time - NO! this is MY soap box - VERY!) biased against women. and in today's society that just doesnt apply. it may apply for some who follow the bible, but in reality, among society, if it was anywhere BUT the bible, it would be called discrimination.

i prefer to stay open minded. call me a fence sitter if you like, but the view from up here is much nicer!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:i will be honest - i havent read this entire argument, i simply dont have the time but from what i can gather it seems to be a yes/no argument.

i think religion has the right idea. however i think certain people take it too far and use it as an excuse for their own bad actions. they claim that it was all god's plan and therefore the individual has no responsibility for their actions.

basically, religion is ok, but it has been the cause and reason for so many wars, i dont know if its worth it.

i have a friend who is highly religious - he's a great guy, and he never preaches to the rest of my group who are 90% athiests. HE has the right idea. he doesnt discriminate against us. he lets us talk about what we believe and i think that religion should see that more. not want the other to burn in hell, but appreciate the other and accept that they have a different idea of hell.

i dont doubt that jesus lived, there is enough evidence documented to prove that a jesus character lived - however i dont believe he was necessarily the son of god. and i find the bible is out of date. its is *rather* (i would say very but i would get yelled at for that big time - NO! this is MY soap box - VERY!) biased against women. and in today's society that just doesnt apply. it may apply for some who follow the bible, but in reality, among society, if it was anywhere BUT the bible, it would be called discrimination.

i prefer to stay open minded. call me a fence sitter if you like, but the view from up here is much nicer!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:It is amazing how many times Jesus has interacted with women. Especially when you look at the society around him.

He lived in the house of a prostitute (Mary Magdaline), spoke to a woman who had many husbands, but currently wasnt living with her current husband... the list does go on. I dont think he was prejudice against women. I can understand where you get this opinion, but I have to ask you, do you honestly know that how He was? Granted you cant write everything he did everyday or else there would just be libraries full of information.

If you read the last verse of the book of John, (I know its the last one but I cant remember if it is 25:29 or 29:25) you will read why you dont see everything about Jesus' life.


You can choose your own path in this world, I feel you are taking the wrong one, but I will say no more to you about this unless you want me to.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dio
Dio

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Posted:Keep in mind that the Bible, as you can find it today, was mostly re-written by a bunch of powerful white males who would use religion as a means to control the masses and enforce their own opinions on the people. There exists a great error in the translation from the original text (and the way it was interpreted), other material has been taken out by people in power who thought it went against their goals. Still other information in the Bible has been added in later.

If you ever played that game in grade school where everyone is in a line and they try to whisper a message in the next person's ear to see how it changes from beginning to end, think of yourself at the end of that line when it comes to Biblical interpretation.

I find an interesting source of information, on all religions, is the website:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:i like the likening to "chinese whispers"!

with the adding on of information later - it is my understanding that there was a theological philosopher who added all the catholic dogmas. they werent in the 'original' bible. original sin is one of these that this guy added.

im not saying that jesus didnt have female friends. i know about mary magdelane (thats not spelt right is it?), however all the stuff about women submitting to men and the whole born from adams rib thing, is more what i was getting at. i went to a wedding the other day and there was far more emphasis and all the things the wife had to do than the husband. SHE submits herself, SHE has to remain faithfl, there was about twice as many rules for her than there was for him!

the movie "dogma" has a lot of my opinions about religion.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Dio, I am sure you can proove that the "white man" has done all this... or are you just pulling something out of somewhere?

How do you know of such an error? Have you seen the original text? What could you possibly have to base this "claim" on?

Honestly I was waiting for someone to come up with the chain game... what possable reason could there be for God to allow His Word to be written wrong?


Original sin, you mean the eating of the fruit from the Tree of Life?? Ya well... Eve may have been the first to eat from it, but nobody made Adam do it, so he is as much at fault as Eve.

Rouge, women have one more rib than men, cant do much about that can you?

You are unfortunatly seeing things out of context. If a woman submits to her husband, in turn the husband must submit to his wife. It is a partnership, not a state of ownership. It was unfortunate that the person conducting the wedding did not tell full circle the implocations of what love truly is.

Love is about submiting yourself to the one you love. It doesnt matter if you are male or female.

Though I like and own the movie Dogma, and all View Askew movies, except for Chasing Amy... just aint bought it yet... it is fictional, its views though humorus are a result of a comical mind. Nothing in that movie was written to be taken seriusly.

I am sure you enjoyed the whole intro to Bartalbe and Loki the Alice in Wonderland deal... anyhoo... it is easy to find something written that will confirm your own fears, try reading something that tells you that your fears are misplaced, perhaps then you will see something in a differnt light.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:quote: it is easy to find something written that will confirm your own fears my own fears ????? im sorry i wasnt aware that i mentioned fearing anything at all. im not sure where that comes into it.

women dont have an extra set of ribs. its a christian myth. and besides, even if they did it doesnt prove anything! women have (now id love to be vulgar here and say TITS! but ill hold it back....) breasts. explain that! perhaps woman was born out of adams chest and thats why hers is so much bigger???
however u asked what i can do about it......i can have them removed [insert Prince joke here....]

yes, i know dogmas its a movie. yes i know its a fictional script - doesnt mean i cant think it has some good ideas! ever seen the move "pay it forward" THATS fiction, however i think it is a rather nice philosophy - but im guessing because its fiction you wold disagree.

i know adam also ate the fuit. if you re-read my post i was talking about original sin in the case of people after the bible adding dogmas - NOT as you would seem to put into my mouth, women.

please dont put words into my mouth - that also means please dont assume i fear whatever it is you think i fear


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Kurobei
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Location: The Phire Kru
Member Since: 19th Aug 2002
Total posts: 786
Posted:how about 100 posts just for the hell of it......um, sake of it

whats up with all the limitations?

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
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Posted:A couple of questions which I hope can get straight answers:

quote:Honestly I was waiting for someone to come up with the chain game... what possable reason could there be for God to allow His Word to be written wrong?You keep saying this. Hence I guess you believe it quite fervently. So what is your explanation for how different translations differ if God would not allow His Word to be written wrong?

quote:Granted you cant write everything he did everyday or else there would just be libraries full of information.There IS much more information than in the bible - many people here have given you pointers to other parts of the bible and other accounts of Jesus' life, but you've dismissed them all. Why? Aren't you interested in Jesus' life?


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:We all fear something, it doesnt matter if you admit or not. I am not saying you are fearfull of Christianity. `To be honest I fear falling, heights dont bother me, I love them, but for some reason I am scared to death to fall from a great height.

I can come up with many examples of how I have weasled my way out of going up to the top of something or yadda yadda yadda hehe I am sure you dont need me to elaborate further on my fear of falling.

I am sorry for putting words in your mouth, I took what you meant as original sin, as the Original Sin.


quote: You keep saying this. Hence I guess you believe it quite fervently. So what is your explanation for how different translations differ if God would not allow His Word to be written wrong? Frosty, 2+2=? 1x4=? 2x2=? 1+1+1+1=?, what equation equals 4? The Bible has differnt translations, so that people of differnt mindsets can understand it. There is even a Comic Book edition, I know... I have it !


quote: There IS much more information than in the bible - many people here have given you pointers to other parts of the bible and other accounts of Jesus' life, but you've dismissed them all. Why? Aren't you interested in Jesus' life? Paul said that there will be many gospels written, some will be false, and that you should guard yourself from these false gospels. I am not a Biblical scholler, in fact I am a dunce when it comes to Biblical studies. How then am I to defend myself from lies? I trust in what the Bible says, I do not allow my mind to faulter from this. If it does not go along with what the Bible says... then it is false. End of story, if the Dead Sea Scrolls, contradict the Bible, they are false. If Billy Bob Thorton's verson contradicts the Bible, then it is false. The Bible is what I need, I dont need these other Testaments.


Does this answer your questions?


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
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Posted:Not at all...

Those versions of the bible differ.

It's more 1+1+1=3, 2+2=4, 2+3=5, 2+1=3

See from the posts on here people have referenced different bibles, some say thou shalt not murder... some say thou shalt not kill - fairly fundamental change there! Some have stories missing - eg. Lot's wife.

How can god have allowed that? If people have just dropped the story of Lot's wife what else might have been dropped over the course of time?

The dead sea scrolls DO NOT contradict the bible. maybe you should read these documents

none of what i'm suggesting here is sacrelidgeous, just something that maybe you'd find worth investigating.


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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Posted:I believe someone already beat me to it here, and I should have caught your earlier reference to it about 50 posts back Ray, but women certainly do NOT have an extra rib. Go look it up in an anatomoy book, or: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_095b.html
br>
A little more direct.

Taking your example then, why can not other religions be equally as valid? Many lay out the same basic path and principles as Christ, but just because a group of white men (This is largly accurate BTW, though of course you still have cultural and local interests in those decissions as well) say that THESE are the fundamentals, you will believe them over Jesus? The words are inconsequential, it is the meaning therein that must be adheared to. Words are just symbols. And if MEANING can be lost between translation, and it can, then how do you know that the exact meaning of the original is what you hold in your hands now? And if different translations omit or add different things, then what are the "fundamentals" of the faith, and what is extra jibber-jabber (To borrow from Mr T) which can be seen then in a different light.

Jesus never wrote anything. Buddha never wrote anything. Therefore, all texts are secondary sources. Muhammed DID write something... and people STILL misinterpret it. Further, if looking at Biblical history, you will find that during a vast 1,000 year span (HALF of our history there) the book survived in original form, and was translated by, those men who withdrew completely from society into monastic life. Yes there was an active church, but they were mostly exploiting there powers for Crusades and Inquisitions, and all kinds of stuff like that. But I already mentioned how I didn't see how he would use his power (Which has left no perceivable traces EVER in history after Jesus) to keep translations close to original, and not to stop the endless destruction and murder carried out in his name.

Last point, take a look at the Greek myths of Dionysus. And if you compare most of the spiritual leaders of our history, you can actually pinpoint the similarities, and cultural influences on myth and religion. The miraculous birth, the miracles, the age-30 midlife crisis turned savior, etc. etc. And last, if God came today, do you think he would speak in the same manner he spoke 2000 years ago? If not why the discrepency? And if so, would anyone understand him or would we just be beating our heads against the wall over differences in interpetation again? Arg!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Frosty, what was dropped about Lot's wife?? I have yet to find a Bible that didnt tell how she died... that is the thing she is most famous for.

Hrmm... "If" does not mean "does", I never said that the Dead Sea Scrolls contradict the Bible.


Ohh my Frosty, now, when it suits you in your argument, you believe me when I say there is a difference?? I mean in just another topic you stood up and argued how there was no differnce between killing and murder!! I think it is time to raise the BS flag to its full height.

Its pretty sad, you cant even keep your own stories straight!

But in all honesty, I'm not a Biblical schollar, I dont know how to answer that question. However, I can ask someone who will know how to answer it. I'll get back to you on that one.

Sorry... the rib thing was meant in humor.

Man... alot of hate twords the white man, crazy I tell you!

The reason the inquisition happend, was because, and yes the Church leaders were at fault here, those who were not sanctioned by the Church could not read the Bible. That and the majority of those who lived in the times of the inquisition, couldnt speek latin, the language the Bible was most widly translated into.

If Jesus came today, his words would not be the same, because we dont talk in the same manner. The message would still be the same but the words would be differnt. That is, if he even spoke English. His crucifiction would be differnt, we no longer nail people to a cross... alot would be differnt, but the message would remain the same.


Why cant other religions be valid??? "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light and no man can come to the Father except through Me." Sound familier?

Jesus and his words are not just the fundamentals of faith, they are the fundamentals of life.


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
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Posted:quote:Ohh my Frosty, now, when it suits you in your argument, you believe me when I say there is a difference?? I mean in just another topic you stood up and argued how there was no differnce between killing and murder!! I think it is time to raise the BS flag to its full height.Ray... ray ray.

I give up mate. This is obviously far too confusing for you when ya can't even answer simple questions but just start mudslinging.

So er... have fun.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Well... when you seem to change from disagreeing, to agreeing it calls for question. Possible mudslinging on my part, but not unreasonable. However, I dont have an answer for you, I am not this all knowing guy. I tried to answer your question, I even said I would find out for you.

I am sorry this wasnt good enough


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
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Posted:It's called debate

In this case we take a theory and we test it to see if it's true.

Your theory is that the Bible is the Word Of God and is perfect.

The question posed to test that is therefore why do different versions differ so wildly - even on pretty crucial commandments.

Gottit?


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Dom
Dom

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Posted:I'm interested what the phrase: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light and no man can come to the Father except through Me" (and it's associated passages in St John's Gospel) actually means to Christians. Anyone?

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Posted:I see it as dividing the story of Christ into two sections: Pre and post enlightenment (To borrow an eastern term). Now clearly you have Jesus the Man, pre-30 illumination, which exists as ONLY those things we know about his childhood as after his disappearance at the age of 12 (Not clear on exact age) we know nothing until he comes back to teach. Now clearly Jesus the Man (Or rather Boy) was of above average intelligence, had a very open mind, was more compassionate than most, and had certain visits and things happen to him which COULD shape the kind of person that would go out in the dessert and meditate (or pray if you'd like) until he realized Truth.

Then you have Jesus Christ, which is a whole new ball game. In Eastern Vedic religions to become "One" with the path to enlightenment has both symbolic and tangeable overtones. I tend to think of Jesus' transformation as similar. Thus the statement that "I am the Way [Pretty Taoist symbolism there], the Truth and the Light and no one comes to the Father [cultural translation from Vedic to Judeism] except through me [Not 'Me'?]" Now it seems to me that Christians take a hyper-symbolic view of this statement, meaning that he is the example of the way, whereas I tend to think of it more as these are different attempts at translation of a concept beyond human conception which, having reached that stage, Jesus is trying to convey back to the others. Basically, if "God" is not favomable, how do you describe him in concept? You approximate with words familiar.

Eastern religions see enlightenment as a step that is not describable, much the same way Christians see "God". The concept is not that dissimilar at all, and in fact when viewed from Gnostic or many Monastic positions in the Christian faith, look very very VERY similar. In comparing different religions, I have taken the multiple perspective theory to heart... if it exists in ALL or MOST religions, then that is a TRUE religious element, and is much more open to debate and validation because of the different perspectives. This is from where I take my view of this quote, as it is very much like what Buddha or Lao Tzu may have spoken, and quite in the same form as well. It does not necessarily mean "Worship me because I am right", more like "There is only one way, but all find the path". Just like all rivers flow into one. Or many trails cross paths in the forest... all go to the same place, and some may be more direct, and some may backtrack sometimes, but in the end they are all equal.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Frosty, I understand the question, the problem isnt comprehension, it is knowing the answer. Calm down, I will do all I can to get it answerd for you.

Dom, to me, it means that if you dont know Christ, you are not getting into Heaven. Jesus also said, (paraphrased) If you acknowlege me with your lips before man, I will acknowlege you before my Father.


Beefy... did Peter and Paul exist before age... 30? (I dont know how old they were) Personally I believe that the reason you dont see more of Jesus' childhood, isnt because of any religius scheam, but because he was a kid. I am sure he did the things that most kids did. What is there to write about?

40 days without food, I think he knew a little something before going out.

Dont forget his baptisim. Where the Spirit of God decended as a dove, and a voice from heave said, (paraphrased again) This is my Son, whom I am well pleased. (something like that, I dont have a Bible infront of me) Even John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God"

There are many religions out there that sound similer, kinda like how some music sounds alike though it is actually differnt styles. You have to decide what you like and what you dont.

I know what I believe, what you need to do is decide for you. Enjoy


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Here is your answer Frosty:

When asked what the greatest commandment is Jesus replied, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind soul body and streangth. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself.

So I must ask you, what does that mean?


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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Posted:Love thy neighbor as yourself... because at the deepest level he IS your self. Sort of have to be versed in the Vedic texts to understand this, but it's the idea of Brahman or undifferentiated reality. At the deepest level Brahman (undifferentiated reality, ultimate reality, whatever) is Atman (The universal self) is atman (the individual self), so all self's are different manifestations of one universal self. Above the Oracle at Delphi was a famous saying: "Know thy self" which some like to claim had this kind of suggestion hidden in it.

While doing reports for my Eastern Philosophy class tonight I came across a religious interpetation of the Vedas (Religious texts of India). Samkhya is a dualistic theory of existence, seperating everything into Material and Purusha (Kind of like the soul). Anyway, I just thought I would mention it, because it is remarkebly similar to the Western religions views... And they supply many logical progressions and such on the nature of the world that can probably apply. For instance they don't believe in a God figure (Yoga adds that on later), but only in pure consciousness which gives rise to the experiential world, and upsets the balance between three "qualities", whose combination makes up everything that we see. Liberation very similar to heaven, but of course with a karmic influence. Just interesting extra material... it kinda provides a logical explanation for many things that Christianity claims must be taken on faith... you may want to give it a gander if you get the chance.


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woodnymph
woodnymph

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Location: london,uk
Member Since: 14th Sep 2003
Total posts: 313
Posted:so i go to hell cos i'm not christian????we are all bigger than our bodies,we all have a soul and are made out of love and return to love.Hell is a state of mind.There is no god up there sitting in judgement on me and if there is then i sure ain't going to worship him out of fear...
And about that pork thing,maybe certain people noticed that after eating old meat people got ill and sometimes died,you don't need a microscope to work that one out...?


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Tell me again, where did Christianity originate? Was it the West? Or Mid-East?

In fact Christianity is a world religion, not a western philosiphy.

An odd fact for those who dont know it,

Name the #1 selling book of all time and current #1 selling book world wide.

The Bible. No other book gets sold as many times, and no other book has been translated into so many differnt languages. It is even recorded into languages that have no written form, so that the people may know the truth.

Woodnymph, you dont worship God out of fear, you worship God out of Love. However a wise man does Fear God.

If hell truly is a state of mind, how can you be in that state of mind when you are dead? I'm no doctor, but doesnt the mind stop working when you're dead?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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squarefish
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2002
Total posts: 403
Posted:To all,
first off I would like to say that I find myself deeply disturbed by this discussion thread,
there is a dark undercurrent running through many of the posts which I had hoped never to see on these pages.

There have been too many flame-like posts and personal attacks, not only on fellow members but also on the moderators who give their time to oversee these message boards.

I find myself editing and re-editing this post as I write it so I'll keep it brief.

I am a scientist, brought up in a roman catholic home in the Republic of Ireland.

If I dare to ask for proof of a gods existence does that make me an evil person in that gods eyes? Will this god then refuse me entry into its heaven?

I have seen far too much blood spilt in the name of gods in my 27 years, brother against brother, fathers against sons, in my own country and in the rest of the world.

I would therefore ask the moderators to carefully re-examine the thread and ask themselves if they would allow the level of vitriol, bile and spite shown herein to be continued on any other topic, and seriously consider the option of stopping this thread.

yours sincerly
Martin

[ 13. October 2003, 13:06: Message edited by: squarefish ]


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Itsgottab
member
Location: NZ
Member Since: 7th Nov 2001
Total posts: 244
Posted:it does seem like ray beefy and frosty are in an endless battle of insults, its funny cos although you have points of differences it would seem you both actually beleive quite seemly points, one though faith the other though reasons.

let it rest


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squarefish
(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2002
Total posts: 403
Posted:Casting the stones? without guilt yourself? shame on you, itsgottab, shame I say.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:*laughs hysterically*

Wow, this post is extreamly mild in insult department. Here I was thinking that I was actually being a good boy. Now if you really want to see a crazy thread, find the "Anti War" thread... if it even still exists. That there is some truly negitive stuff!

In truth I do owe Frosty a debt of thanks, he (and in truth, others) has forced me to go really start reading the Bible and Praying more. Frankly I had been in a slump, a very long slump.


Squarefish, I see the proof of Gods existance whenever I open my eyes. I cant tell you if you will go to hell for asking God to prove that he exists. But I tell you the truth, if you dont believe, you will never see past the Gates.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:Actually, I think since I brought up that same point earlier in this series Raymund and I have been quite cordgial. We havn't really been insulting each other at all, just discussing back and forth on different points with different reasons. You may take some of my analogies, etc. to imply that I think he is stupid or something like that for believing what he believes, but that is not the case at all. Yes, some of the earlier parts of the thread got a little heated, and every once in a while someone gets a little offended, but that's life.

To say "Keep your religion to yourself" is foolish. Everything in our existence is based on relation. How am I to find what I truly believe without relating it to what others believe? This discussion has not been an endless series of flames, on the contrary, it has stimulated my search for my own spirituality, just as it has Rays, in ways that few things EXCEPT luke-warm discussion can bring about.

One of the good things about a board like this is that you don't have to read the discussions you don't want to get involved in... If you legitimatly want to discuss religion and spirituality, then yes some people may feelthey get their feet stepped on sometimes. I had a teacher in high school who, if you fell asleep, would step on your foot (Quite painfully sometimes) to wake you up. Sometimes we need someone to test our boundaries in order to wake us up and make us realize what we DO believe.

And with that...

If as Jesus said God is all forgiving (one of the central tennants of Christianity I believe, eh?) then why is there a need for a conceptualization of hell? I think what was trying to be hinted at (maybe Im wrong) was that hell is based on aversion to things you dislike, which is only possible in life. In the afterlife, hell is a pointless conceptualization. It's like a computer, with electricity being the soul. When you turn it off, the electricity is not there, but all the memories are still in the hard drive. Similarly we leave behind us our life and return to a pure spiritual state in which judgement is pointless. How do you tell this electricity from this electricity basically? There is no difference, there is only electricity. Similarly there is no difference between souls, there is only Soul, God's or mortal's.

Surly you have seen or read some rendition of Frankenstein (similar to Satan and "Non servium" actually...). Once created, why must I be greatful? I never asked to be created. How do I know non-creation wasn't better? Personally if God is sitting in judgement of me, I really don't know if I could resist mooning him when I die. I'm all about my freedom from anything and everything, and I don't like judgement in any case whatsoever (To clear that up, yes, I am quite an anarchist in my beliefs). If he created me for some purpose, then who says I want to live out that purpose? If free will exists, then I retain my ability to deny serving him or anyone's purpose.

And last but not least, if you are Taoist, hell holds no meaning. A true Taoist enjoys everything, as they see all experience as satisfactory, whether you would classify it as "good" or "bad". So what is hell for the archetypal Taoist? Nothing could qualify, and if nothing can qualify for one person, how can it be universally applicable?


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