Forums > Social Chat > Junkies given money to sterilise themselves
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Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Posted:
Found this on the news this morning. Anybody else find this disturbing. Freewill to make life changing decisions while addicted to a substance. What if a person cleaned up there act to find themselves sterlised....
have a quick look
Found this on the news this morning. Anybody else find this disturbing. Freewill to make life changing decisions while addicted to a substance. What if a person cleaned up there act to find themselves sterlised....
have a quick look
I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
That is awful
She compared the woman to dogs saying that they have litters of children and so on.
People need to help those woman get clean not stop then having children.
That is awful
She compared the woman to dogs saying that they have litters of children and so on.
People need to help those woman get clean not stop then having children.
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
Offering them contraceptive implants is a good idea but its not for the benefit of the user or the unborn child.
Offering them contraceptive implants is a good idea but its not for the benefit of the user or the unborn child.
quote:Wow - harsh!! How on earth are these people allowed to get away with it
"If they spend the $200 on drugs, they spend it on drugs. It's none of our business what they do with the money we give them."
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
This woman... damn I think she is on crack. The sad part is, there is nothing illeagle about a program like this. If she wants to throw $200 away to get drug addicts not to have children then she is well within her rights.
I dont agree with drugs and I feel her $200 would be better spent on trying to help these woman clean up their lives, but who am I to say what she does with her own money?
On a side note, this should really be moved to a differnt area of discussion, it has nothing to do with war.
This woman... damn I think she is on crack. The sad part is, there is nothing illeagle about a program like this. If she wants to throw $200 away to get drug addicts not to have children then she is well within her rights.
I dont agree with drugs and I feel her $200 would be better spent on trying to help these woman clean up their lives, but who am I to say what she does with her own money?
On a side note, this should really be moved to a differnt area of discussion, it has nothing to do with war.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
HoP Mechanical Engineer
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
Posted:
Wow, prickly issue for sure!
I'll play Devil's Advocate here and say the idea's a good one. Why? Because the criticisms are way out of line in the way they portray the program.
These people are not being tranquilized and dragged to a doctor, nor are they dragged kicking and screaming. They are made aware of the choice, and go of their own accord.
Critics blast the program as "eugenics" and "racist," (implying genocide) but is it really? The ad on the article mentioned 4 different forms of birth control, 3 of which were reversible (IUD, Depo-Provera, and Norplant) or, at the very least, temporary. Hardly what I would call "sterilization." Someone at that point in their life could arguably use the temporary birth control methods until they are past their addiction and ready for children, and the situation is much better off for both parent and child.
People, please realize this is not bribing a desperate, drug-addicted woman to give up her ability to bear children permanently. While some may make that particular choice, there exist options that are nowhere near as permanent (Norplant lasts around 5 years, Depo Provera lasts about 3 months, an IUD can be removed at any time).
Having a child while you're trying to get through addiction only makes it that much harder and adds stress to your life that you don't need. The child could have to endure birth defects the rest of its life if the mother uses substances while pregnant. If the mother doesn't want the child and puts it up for adoption, that's one more kid without a home or a family, and no kid deserves that.
And honestly... $200? Most of those procedures cost significant amounts of money - I can't see any gain in that.
Wow, prickly issue for sure!
I'll play Devil's Advocate here and say the idea's a good one. Why? Because the criticisms are way out of line in the way they portray the program.
These people are not being tranquilized and dragged to a doctor, nor are they dragged kicking and screaming. They are made aware of the choice, and go of their own accord.
Critics blast the program as "eugenics" and "racist," (implying genocide) but is it really? The ad on the article mentioned 4 different forms of birth control, 3 of which were reversible (IUD, Depo-Provera, and Norplant) or, at the very least, temporary. Hardly what I would call "sterilization." Someone at that point in their life could arguably use the temporary birth control methods until they are past their addiction and ready for children, and the situation is much better off for both parent and child.
People, please realize this is not bribing a desperate, drug-addicted woman to give up her ability to bear children permanently. While some may make that particular choice, there exist options that are nowhere near as permanent (Norplant lasts around 5 years, Depo Provera lasts about 3 months, an IUD can be removed at any time).
Having a child while you're trying to get through addiction only makes it that much harder and adds stress to your life that you don't need. The child could have to endure birth defects the rest of its life if the mother uses substances while pregnant. If the mother doesn't want the child and puts it up for adoption, that's one more kid without a home or a family, and no kid deserves that.
And honestly... $200? Most of those procedures cost significant amounts of money - I can't see any gain in that.
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
Dio - agree that offering choice of long term contraceptives is a good idea. I suppose I'm not one to preach about ideals as I think people should have to apply for a license before they have a child. Clearly a drug addict is not going to make a fit parent. Its a shame though that there are no efforts there to help the addict too The founder shows a disgust towards all drug users and their offspring. What next - offering money for sterilisation to knackers, football hooligans, essex girls
Hmmm.. maybe that would not be such a bad idea
Dio - agree that offering choice of long term contraceptives is a good idea. I suppose I'm not one to preach about ideals as I think people should have to apply for a license before they have a child. Clearly a drug addict is not going to make a fit parent. Its a shame though that there are no efforts there to help the addict too The founder shows a disgust towards all drug users and their offspring. What next - offering money for sterilisation to knackers, football hooligans, essex girls
Hmmm.. maybe that would not be such a bad idea
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
I'm wit Dio. The theory of long term contraception is good - if you're a drug addict desperate for $200, then having a child is not a good thing to be doing.
But it is a shame that she proves no help to those she's giving $200 to. Like a lot of ultra conservatives, cares little for someone in a bad situation as they see it as one of their own making.
A quote: "Probation officers, social workers and those who work on drug treatment programmes are increasingly referring their clients to us."
So hopefully some of these people are also getting proper help with their addiction.
I'm wit Dio. The theory of long term contraception is good - if you're a drug addict desperate for $200, then having a child is not a good thing to be doing.
But it is a shame that she proves no help to those she's giving $200 to. Like a lot of ultra conservatives, cares little for someone in a bad situation as they see it as one of their own making.
A quote: "Probation officers, social workers and those who work on drug treatment programmes are increasingly referring their clients to us."
So hopefully some of these people are also getting proper help with their addiction.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Dio's made some perceptive observations, particularly the fact that the majority of forms of contraception offered are not permanant.
It's a real shame that a biased article can rally such support by simply mentioning words like 'Nazi Germany' and 'eugenics'.
Where sympathy for crack addicts is concerned, I feel a lot more of it for the thousands of children who have no choice whatsoever about their formative years spent in a filthy, dangerous and uncaring environment.
Undoubtably a large percentage of the next generation of crack addicts will come from just such a background.
As for spending the money to help the addicts, anyone is able to form a group to help addicts if they wish; clearly Ms Harris (who runs the service) has her own ideas of the best way to help the problem and has put in the effort necessary to carry it out.
She seems to sum up the issue here: -
"It's just nonsense. Nobody is forcing these people to do anything - it's their own decision. What infuriates me is that if my critics don't think these people are capable of making their mind up on an issue like this, why on earth do they think they are capable of bringing up a child?"
Has anyone considered that the addicts who have made use of this service may have done it because they genuinly don't want to have children?
Dio's made some perceptive observations, particularly the fact that the majority of forms of contraception offered are not permanant.
It's a real shame that a biased article can rally such support by simply mentioning words like 'Nazi Germany' and 'eugenics'.
Where sympathy for crack addicts is concerned, I feel a lot more of it for the thousands of children who have no choice whatsoever about their formative years spent in a filthy, dangerous and uncaring environment.
Undoubtably a large percentage of the next generation of crack addicts will come from just such a background.
As for spending the money to help the addicts, anyone is able to form a group to help addicts if they wish; clearly Ms Harris (who runs the service) has her own ideas of the best way to help the problem and has put in the effort necessary to carry it out.
She seems to sum up the issue here: -
"It's just nonsense. Nobody is forcing these people to do anything - it's their own decision. What infuriates me is that if my critics don't think these people are capable of making their mind up on an issue like this, why on earth do they think they are capable of bringing up a child?"
Has anyone considered that the addicts who have made use of this service may have done it because they genuinly don't want to have children?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step
2,568 posts
Location: sitting on the step
Posted:
when i first read the article i wasn't sure where to stand on the issue, but i gotta say im with dio dom and onewheeldave. this is and incredibly bias article.
thousands of women are sterilized every year...maybe what people are shocked about is that she pays them, would people have so much to say about it if she didn't? but then would the addicts go get sterilized?
when i first read the article i wasn't sure where to stand on the issue, but i gotta say im with dio dom and onewheeldave. this is and incredibly bias article.
thousands of women are sterilized every year...maybe what people are shocked about is that she pays them, would people have so much to say about it if she didn't? but then would the addicts go get sterilized?
she who sees from up high smiles
Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
ummm...errrr, i agree...no hang on, I don't, yes, yes i do,,,,no i don't aaaarrrgghhh!
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ummm...errrr, i agree...no hang on, I don't, yes, yes i do,,,,no i don't aaaarrrgghhh!
Non-Https Image Link
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GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
living a lifestyle is a personal choice in the same way that the program is a free choice offered to ppl. whats more its not something that can be done on the spur of the moment as you have to have the correct documentation which requires getting the correct documentqation and then taking it in then going and getting the treatment done.
quote:first off everyone has free will all the time its one of the joys that comes with being human. the idea of someone not being able to make a life changing decision while addicted to a substance eg quitting the substance now that is scary.
Freewill to make life changing decisions while addicted to a substance. What if a person cleaned up there act to find themselves sterlised....
living a lifestyle is a personal choice in the same way that the program is a free choice offered to ppl. whats more its not something that can be done on the spur of the moment as you have to have the correct documentation which requires getting the correct documentqation and then taking it in then going and getting the treatment done.
quote:we arnt talking about recreation use either we are talking about addicts and as the article says its not there to help the addicts it to help stop a child being brought into the world where they wont be adequately cared for.
Those interested are asked to submit documents proving that they have been arrested on narcotic offences, or provide a doctor's letter as evidence that they use drugs.
quote:there are other programs set up to help ppl clean up their lives and $200 doesnt go far
I feel her $200 would be better spent on trying to help these woman clean up their lives
quote:im not saying that i agree with sterilization but from my perspective if i found out that i was sterile and at a stage in my life where i wanted i child. i would have no problems adopting and wouldnt love the child any less just because it wasnt my own flesh and blood.
What happens to those women who clean themselves up to the extent that they otherwise could have considered supporting their own children?
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
BRONZE Member
Magical Sock Dancer
255 posts
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Magical Sock Dancer
255 posts
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posted:
I like the idea, maybe sterilisation should be left too when there seems the person has no chance of getting out. A bit of education on things they could do too get out of the lifestyle there in after giving them some long term birth control might be a good idea too.
I like the idea, maybe sterilisation should be left too when there seems the person has no chance of getting out. A bit of education on things they could do too get out of the lifestyle there in after giving them some long term birth control might be a good idea too.
GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
Posted:
Wow this seems very familiar... I live in a town in Ohio called Medina... a very ultra-conservative (no, really, that is it's political designation) little facist city. In a recent case here, one of our judges ordered someone to not have any more children, because of something about child support I believe. I'm pretty sure its either already been overturned, or is in the process of now, but still, it disturbs me every time I see the wonderful new interpetations our local judicial system puts out there.
Sterilization, even better, haha. This truly is the most exciting time to be alive...
Wow this seems very familiar... I live in a town in Ohio called Medina... a very ultra-conservative (no, really, that is it's political designation) little facist city. In a recent case here, one of our judges ordered someone to not have any more children, because of something about child support I believe. I'm pretty sure its either already been overturned, or is in the process of now, but still, it disturbs me every time I see the wonderful new interpetations our local judicial system puts out there.
Sterilization, even better, haha. This truly is the most exciting time to be alive...
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
In the original article there's nothing to do with anyone being ordered by a judge, or anyone else, to not have children.
The only connection seems to be that the word 'facism' has been connected with them both (wrongly in the case of the original article).
quote:It's not that similar though is it?
Originally posted by i8beefy2:
Wow this seems very familiar... I live in a town in Ohio called Medina... a very ultra-conservative (no, really, that is it's political designation) little facist city. In a recent case here, one of our judges ordered someone to not have any more children, because of something about child support I believe. I'm pretty sure its either already been overturned, or is in the process of now, but still, it disturbs me every time I see the wonderful new interpetations our local judicial system puts out there.
Sterilization, even better, haha. This truly is the most exciting time to be alive...
In the original article there's nothing to do with anyone being ordered by a judge, or anyone else, to not have children.
The only connection seems to be that the word 'facism' has been connected with them both (wrongly in the case of the original article).
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
member
442 posts
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
442 posts
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
Posted:
Here in the States, you need to get approved to get a pet (like a dog) but any idiot can have a child. That just seems weird to me.
I like this program. I like the phrase "If you can't trust with a choice, how can you trust with a child?"
Here in the States, you need to get approved to get a pet (like a dog) but any idiot can have a child. That just seems weird to me.
I like this program. I like the phrase "If you can't trust with a choice, how can you trust with a child?"
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GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Posted:
The impression that I first got when I first read the article that the junkies were being treated like scum that should be stopped from breeding. I didn't even notice the reference to facism but spose that's worse really (keep an eye out for that now...)
I was just genuinely surprised that this was happening though to be honest. Why not offer them free services and then do something contructive with the 200 quid. Free service allows every "responsible junky" the opportunity to be so, without dangling a rock of coke from a stick to get them in there in the first place.
Sorry if that seems bad but that's just how it seems to me...
The impression that I first got when I first read the article that the junkies were being treated like scum that should be stopped from breeding. I didn't even notice the reference to facism but spose that's worse really (keep an eye out for that now...)
quote:
If they spend the $200 on drugs, they spend it on drugs. It's none of our business what they do with the money we give them."
quote:Why did she have to tone her language down? What are her motivations.
As it has expanded, the tone of the group has also shifted. Ms Harris, who was quoted in one of her first interviews as saying "We don't allow dogs to breed. We spay them. We neuter them. We try to keep them from having unwanted puppies, and yet these women are literally having litters of children," has since toned down her language.
quote:Why not?
nor will the group divulge the names of institutes whose counsellors allegedly refer their clients
I was just genuinely surprised that this was happening though to be honest. Why not offer them free services and then do something contructive with the 200 quid. Free service allows every "responsible junky" the opportunity to be so, without dangling a rock of coke from a stick to get them in there in the first place.
Sorry if that seems bad but that's just how it seems to me...
I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
quote:I can't speak for her, but I imagine she toned it down because most people respond badly to such direct language and it would result in adverse publicity.
Originally posted by DeepSoulSheep:
quote:Why did she have to tone her language down? What are her motivations.
As it has expanded, the tone of the group has also shifted. Ms Harris, who was quoted in one of her first interviews as saying "We don't allow dogs to breed. We spay them. We neuter them. We try to keep them from having unwanted puppies, and yet these women are literally having litters of children," has since toned down her language.
quote:Maybe because, as the whole thing is controversial, they are just protecting the refering counsellors from groups who are opposing the service.
Originally posted by DeepSoulSheep:
quote:Why not?
nor will the group divulge the names of institutes whose counsellors allegedly refer their clients
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
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