s-p-l-a-t
member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Member Since: 8th Mar 2001
Total posts: 383
Posted:hello, I was just wondering..how many ppl here have experienced this ugly trait in ppl when twirling fire? Is it common for lots of ppl to feel this negative vibe coming across while playing?I do lots of things (e.g. long distance bike riding, horse-riding, play piano, tennis, draw, paint etc) etc blur blah blah blah - but have never experienced anything remotely similar (though only occasional thankfully - usually everyone is awed and wants to learn/watch/talk) but the fact is that ppl obviously feel threatened (why!?!?) in someway. (Usually other twirlers).. perhaps I need to get out of the city? Or just meet some more nice non-bullshit twirlers...
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Of course I do..
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------------------The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King


The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:Hey Splat, don't know what bad vibes you are experiencing right now, but you definitely need some fresh air.
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For sure there is a difference with many other sports because in spinning, there is a performing part where , well... where the ego shows sometimes cause it is about getting some good feedback from the audience. People enjoy looking "unique" ... Nothing more natural, but it sometimes leads to ugly attitudes. Most of the time I am just damn enthousiastic to meet other spinners etc... cause it means dynamic, learning more, sharing etc... Once I felt this arrogant attitude from another juggler/ spinner and truth is, though of course she bas better than me, she was not such a good one. Good ones, or those with good attitudes don't do that.However, we all have our moods for sure !! I really don't mean to offend anyone, just thought that sometimes we push others away too, without even noticing, just like the kids who come and watch us spin and push hard so that we let them try ...Cheer up cause beauty is everywhere .Shine onCassandra


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:Dunno if this fits into the same catagory but when myself and some others on this board started a twirling evening in Sydney every so often this same car would drive past yelling something to the effect of "GO BACK TO BYRON YA FUCKEN FIRE TWIRLING FAGGOTS!"(Byron for those who don't know is Australia's most easterly point and some what of a 'mecca' for alternative lifestyles and arts)I've experienced similar attitudes from other punters (usually drunk) who for some reason feel something as cool as fire twirling somehow states a persons sexuality OR feel threatened for some reason.Anyway, doesn't matter huh? As long as you feel good doing it and there will always be someone willing to complement you and those moments are very gratifying and motivating.Apologies for the above yelling and swearing. Just quoting.
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mikeyb
member
Location: Oxford, UK
Member Since: 5th Apr 2001
Total posts: 93
Posted:Whatever someone says about you (bad or good) says plenty about them, and precisely nothing about you. How could it say anything about you, since they don't know what it's like to be you?There's no benefit to be had from taking anything personally, criticism or praise.But on the other hand, back in the days, there was a certain smug satisfaction when a bunch of brummy neanderthals would yell "hippy!" across the street, and I'd just wave, say "thank you", and walk on
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. You should try guitarists if you really want to see smugness, snideness, jealousy and the whole spectrum of it. Maybe, like cassandra said, that relates to the performance side.There's a wide variety of people on this little planet of ours, and some of them appear to enjoy criticising others. So let them have their fun. Who cares? It's nothing personal, because there IS nothing personal.Now, when I do something with some poi that someone else likes, I'll always try to teach them, or more accurately help them to learn, because I know that it was hard work for me, and rewarding, and I want to share that pleasure.But some people are different. Hey, variety makes for an interesting world.mikeyB


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protozoa
member
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2001
Total posts: 148
Posted:Splat,Can you share a little more about your experience? I think it'd be really helpful/therapeutic; many of us have probably experienced it to some degree.I can venture a guess as to some reasons why this sentiment manifests; fire twirling is still pretty novel and when we do it for people who have never seen it before or don't do it themselves, we're used to being oohed and ahhed over with every twitch of our hips and flick of our wrists. It gets you into this entitlement mindset, if you're not careful, I think. So it's easy to be sensitive ego-wise when you're suddenly surrounded by people who are working on the same skill set.I also am inclined to believe that part of the negativity comes from the fact that this is still evolving as a craft, and a number of people might think of the same move/combo/equipment innovations simultaneously, and then assume that the other person "stole" their idea. A lot of people on this board have exhibited some degree of hostility toward specific people or just people in general. I say it's best to just drop this nonsense now. I teach everybody everything I know how to do, and I can admit that I'm a little jealous of the people I teach my tricks and style to when they pick it up faster than I ever could have, but I'm also so proud of them and so pleased. Imitation is the highest form of flattery, and I hold that as an ideal above everything else, including my petty attachment to "my" ideas and "my" creations. I trust that I get my rewards in ways that don't involve a selfish assertion of what is "mine". Even if someone does "steal" my ideas, who's to say it was mine in the first place? As far as I'm concerned, inspiration comes from the universe's divinity, and that's community propoerty.Our local fire group seems pretty unique in that we have this philosophy of total open sharing of techniques and moves. We are not choosy in who we teach; anyone who wants to can come, and once we better get the hang of this quicktime thing we'll be posting a lot more of our ideas on our website (http://www.calefaction.org/teach/). I don't think it's any coincidence that most local poiers are also Open Source/Linux/Free Software geeks, people who write computer software and give it away for free.It's important that we be patient with each other, and charitable with each other. The deepest and most meaningful philosophies are based upon charity and patience. Let's not put a premium on secrecy and arrogance - it breeds exactly the kind of ugly trait you're writing of, I think.
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deepest respect,-protieP.S. This is not to say that I'm perfect. Goddamn I can be every bit as catty, petty, selfish, stubborn, short-sighted and narrow-minded as anyone. But this is where I'd _like_ to be.
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Jez
addict
Location: UK, London
Member Since: 11th Apr 2001
Total posts: 642
Posted:I have noticed this jealousy in myself of my friend who has just started twirling.He has only just started learning and can only do two moves (weave and butterfly) but when we go out together to practise it is him who gets the compliments from other people!!! I put this down to how good looking he is compared to me. But it is frustrating when I can pull out some sick moves but never get noticed by anyone. It would not bother me but my friend is always surrounded by loads of people while he spins. While I spin behind him. I will have to turn this jealousy thing into something more productive like using the fact he gets noticed more than me, to my advantage (hmmmm gives me an idea!).Laterz------------------'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience'

'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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adamrice
adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA
Member Since: 19th Dec 2000
Total posts: 1015
Posted:Splat--I think the group of twirlers here in Austin is like Protie's community: we all want to learn from each other, we all steal moves from each other quite happily, and I'll go out on a limb and say almost all of us are pretty humble as firespinners. Even the best among us (and they are damned good) will only grudgingly admit to being "pretty good...I guess." And in fact I think some humility is a good thing when playing with something that can hurt us and that we don't have complete control over.I'm also a cyclist (we can discuss this offline), and in my experience, cyclists are often a bunch of stuck-up, exclusionary weenies. Firedancers are much more welcoming.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Yeah, Splat, I have. And not in the area of spinning but more in other areas of my performing, whether it is ability based, pay based, etc....it doesn't matter. It is there. I try to ignore it. I am there to do a job, to have fun and make sure others have fun. The jealousy is their inferiority complex showing and is not a bad thing towards you. Veiw it as a compliment, they think highly enough of you to want to be like you. What I can't stand is the jealousy that takes the negative route, where they take it out on you, or when they try to emulate you, coat ride. I have had that happen more times than not, and it is never a good situation for anyone.The best you can do is concentrate on yourself. Do the best you can for you and don't worry about anyone else. People who are perpetually jealous will look for a way to elevate their own bruised egos by making you feel bad. Don't sweat them, it's alot more trouble than it is worth.Best of luck and hang in the buh-die!
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Twist
member

Member Since: 4th Apr 2001
Total posts: 160
Posted:I think Pele and Protozoa are pretty right on......my own personal experience (think I've talked about it before). I was very close to a fire dancer... she refused to teach me because she said it was "hers" and it made her "special." For a while I backed off... and then I taught myself.My experience is that a lot of insecure people who need to be the center of attention take up fire dancing. As a few other people have mentioned, if they see center stage getting crowded, they freak.My personal philosophy is similar to Protozoa's and Adam's... it comes from this question:What makes you happier, having a bunch of people ooing and ahhing over you, or seeing friends take joy in spinning poi you made for them and practicing moves you introduced them to?I take the second. We all know the joy and confidence that comes from the balance and mentality of spinning. I'll admit, my reasons are selfish still -- I like feeling as if I have introduced people to something. If nothing else, I feel bad for people who want to keep this to themselves.

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s-p-l-a-t
member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Member Since: 8th Mar 2001
Total posts: 383
Posted:And the reason you guys aren't local . . ...?? It's refreshing to hear those replies..I am told by my performing partner if the audience has gone ooh and aah ... when I twirl I don't hear anything at all (bar the roaring of the flames).. It's something I've been told to work on - audience recognition when I'm twirling - (its sooo easy to trance out! like someone else said a little while ago)At the moment I have to agree with Twist it seems a few firedancers over here have been insecure at the time they were learning and thus have to keep it to themselves (not that I think they could teach me anything just by their actions)- I also love teaching people new moves and seeing the look on their faces as they get it. Cause with each move I learnt I was jumping up and down 4 feet in the air yelling I got it!! at the top of my lungs. (I'm sure 1000s of other twirlers are the same as that
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) I love seeing other people as stoked as it made me.I guess my concern stems from brushes with people who I just don't understand and really felt the need to see if anyone else got that. And you do!! yay!! THANKS! well it is a bit sad ..but you guys understand! (feels like hugging everyone) Voices of understanding and sanity make for a happier outlook ...
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The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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Posted:Hey Splat,you should really try to hook up with Aussie HOp'ers all of them I've met so far have been wicked.i've had the jealousy thing happen too. but sometimes its me! I push myself hard with my twirling, and so usually i've got some new innovation to show my friends, but I think they are totally used to it, and hardly comment any more. So it gets a bit frustrating when I've worked on something really tricky for months and months without getting any compliemnts - I teach it to another friend who gets it straight away (its a hell of a lot easier to copy a technique than to develop a new one) and everyone goes ooohh ahhh that looks great! - but the feeling doesnt last, I know my own value. and I'm working on not giving a shit about other ppls opinions of my twirling cuz on teh whole I dont think there are many ppl who are qualified to give an opinion.Its stil nce to get compliments, but I tend to take it as something very personal eg "Hey that looks great" = "I like you as a friend Josh" cuz I reckon thats all you can really get out of a compliement in all honesty.Josh

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:I'll keep that in mind Josh next time I see you twirl. I will certainly refrain from complimenting you, as I'm barely qualified. But I do like you as a friend...

HoP Posting Guidelines
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Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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Posted:Of course, I should have added - this doesnt incude un provoked compliments from other experienced twirlers.:PLike flash for example - it doesnt include her.Josh

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nomad
nomad

retired
Location: Paris, France
Member Since: 15th Jan 2001
Total posts: 356
Posted:One of the reasons i like meeting and spinning with other poiers is that it keeps me humble. After a while of spinning in front of non-spinners only (who most of the time are impressed by what we consider easy stuff)(then again, you don't have to be too technical and pull behind-the-back-26-beat weaves to be good, but that's another debate we already went over...), I caught myself thinking I was very good at it. Meeting new poi people, seeing other talents, reading all that you guys can do and think about (in terms of moves, performance ideas, etc.) helps remind me that i still have a lot to learn! I agree with the views exposed here as far as the spirit of poi. I don't think there should be any jealousy among poiers, but a will to share your talent with others and learn new techniques. I don't think there should be any ego trips when spinning in front of non-poiers, but a will to teach them what you know and the satisfaction to see beginners progress.Nomad

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emthren
member
Location: Sydney
Member Since: 31st May 2001
Total posts: 57
Posted:Amongst other things, I like to think that somewhere down the track a person will have something that I'll want to learn of them (be it fire related or not).If I'm stingy now, they'll be stingy then, and nobody wins.Not saying that anyone's keeping count, but that's the general idea I try to keep in mind. It's not complete altruism, but it's about as close as I can see myself getting.

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evenstar
member
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 27th May 2001
Total posts: 36
Posted:This topic surprised me somewhat, as the society that I am involved in, has never displayed any negative sentiments, only shared and fostered an atmosphere of learning new things off each other. Twirling is such a wonderful and burgeoning art, and I only hope that others will agree (as just about all of us HOPers here do), that the sharing spirit only adds a deeper dimension to doing twirling. Granted, occasionally, there will be a spark of envy, when we see something done better than by oneself, but, as in all sports, it is the competitive spirit rising, which wills us to continue practising, and hence better ourselves. Jealousy, in the derogatory sense, where it makes us harbour ill will towards others, I believe, taints the jealous party's own performance, does not enhance it, even if he or she 'owns' spiffier moves than everyone else.Hope I haven't offended anyone in this forum by voicing this (I am on a high at the moment, I only just learnt how to do the behind the back weave this afternoon - despite the looming exams...). It's just that I love what I do, simply because of the great people that I do it with, and the great people that I discuss it with (namely, everybody here =). [This message has been edited by evenstar (edited 16 June 2001).]

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring.
TOLKIEN

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s-p-l-a-t
member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Member Since: 8th Mar 2001
Total posts: 383
Posted:That's very lucky for you evenstar to have experienced nothing but the fluffy part of the cloud. (in the fire sense) It's extremely unrealistic around these parts. When I started I just assumed that everyone would be super friendly cause fire seems to break down a lot of barriers for me - it surprised me when I discovered it was not all roses.I'm not sure if every person got what I was trying to say (thankfully a few seemed to
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) .... I've been brought up with the idea that jealousy is absolutely useless and sad and thus have a very hard time being jealous of anyone for any reason. Thus I find it very difficult to understand when I sense someone is jealous of something I am doing.I am only ever awed by some people's skill (in juggling, unicycling etc) and then get the massive urge to watch and learn all I can (if after enquiries I find they won't teach me)...I honestly do not feel a spark of jealousy for any fire spinner at all. Everyone's style is so very different - what is the need? Sure some ppl impress the pants off me (not literally) - and inspire me to learn... but never have I felt dislike at my own ability in comparison to someone else's. And then expressed that to them in poorly suppressed dislike. And I've never been anything but friendly to other people I see twirl. I'm like an enthusiastic child (in a manner of speaking of course) when I meet someone else who plays with fire. Anyway, just making things (hopefully) marginally clearer
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Oh yeah - and the long distance bike riding that I do is just that - long distance. Nothing but the open road, the farms I pass, the cows and horses in their paddocks, birds overhead, the blaring hot Australian sun and of course the occasional downpour. Oh yeah and my partner. Nothing and no one else for days and often weeks, sometimes months.. (except the stop ins in towns where the reception is never bad anyway). It's pure bliss
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[This message has been edited by splat (edited 17 June 2001).]


The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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disko
member

Member Since: 6th Jan 2001
Total posts: 21
Posted:S'been a while since I posted, but...Hey!...I'm back!I have come accross similar negativity but there is usually a root cause, such as insecurity, which makes the person hostile. If you are intuitive enough you can sense this and address it appropriatly - humour is usually a good option or any ther way to get them 'on-side' and 'with you'. The one that has scared me most is when people see twirling as another excuse to abuse you for no good reason - you are different so you deserve to be abused. To be honest it doesn't matter what you do, 'they' will always find an excuse to be ignorant shitheads to you, its in their nature.One true story that happened to me...I was in the park with friends, I had my beaming poi with me, I switched them on and this BIG bloke swaggered upto me - he was quite drunk and aggressive...I was a bit scared. He pointed at the poi and said "Go on then lets see your F***ing stuff then!" So I did my stuff. After my little show he changed his tone, he apologised for his agression and explained that he thought I was just another "f***ing student type with glowing f***ing shit on string" but that when he saw what I could do he realised that it took much skill and apart from anything "looked f***ing great!". He explained he used to do martial arts so could appreciate the moves involved.What a transformation. If you're good, if you're 'show' is good, if you perform well, people do appreciate it, you can win them over. People do fear what they no not know but as soon as they understand it, it poses no threat and you get new friends who are f***king BIG!ciao! Lets go d:$ko!

*burn-baby-burn-disko-inferno*

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