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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:In another thread about drug free spinning a few people said that taking drugs or not was a matter of personal choice.

I feel a little uneasy about applying that phrase to drugs as they tend to be addictive or habit forming substances.

i.e. they effectivly diminish or remove the ability to make choices. for example, someone who has never smoked can choose whether or not to light and smoke a cigarette, but someone who has a thirty a day habit and is severely addicted to nicotine no longer has that choice.

There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.

Whilst some drugs are considered non addictive, due to peer pressure and the pro drug marketing that is rife in our culture, choice is effectivly reduced.

I know that people shouldn't be influenced by such things, but humans are extremely suseptible to this- there wouldn't, for example, be so many drinks promotions if promotions didn't work.

The sad thing is that the young are most suseptible to this pro drug propaganda.

I was wondering what those of you who believe that taking drugs is a matter of personal choice, thought about this?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:quote:There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.
I have never felt so opposite in my life. We are all born with free will. The ability to choose. Addicts can choose to quit without that ability there is little hope. You can support your friends and family in "kicking the habit" but ultimately they are the one to make the decision to change their life. They are the ones to choose addiction or non-addiction.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Wow Stone, you're so smart, you sure zinged me on that one.

It is true that taking a drug over and extended period of time can lead to an addiction. I am sure that the "go pill" falls under that catagory too.

The question is, do they take it for long enough to develop a chemical depence.


In a way, yes Mike, that is what I am saying. But do not take it too far as to something like, well you have taken a dump more than twice, you must be addicted. So anyhoo.

Yes my verbage was wrong, thank you Mr. Webster.

So what your saying is that the repeated habbit of putting a cigerret to your mouth isnt addictive?

I know quite a few smokers who would say otherwise. I know they arnt docters, but I would wager that they know something about addictions and habbit forming activities.

I do find it humorus though, that out of all the docs that I know, the majority smoke! It is a cause for wonder.

Do docters really know what they were tought in school?

There is a such thing as a social addiction. Though it is replaced by either a physical or chemical addiction/dependence.

I'm a definate outcast, do I do drugs or have I ever done drugs (excluding alcohol and tobacco)? No.

Have I ever been seriusly accused of taking drugs? Nope.


I get the,"you're on crack" deal every other day

I dont agree that creative people do drugs more. I mean, I know more jocks who use drugs, than the "artists".


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Stubbs
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Location: Kingston
Member Since: 23rd Jul 2003
Total posts: 31
Posted:Your idea of "social addiction" is what undermines your credibility.

Presumably, there's any number of things you do with your friends that you do in order to have a good time, to fit in, to be respected by them. I seriously doubt that all your social activities are determined unilaterally by your own self. Personally, I tend to join my coworkers for lunch even when I know I don't have the money, just for the social "rush".

Am I addicted to going out to lunch? I suppose if you were to be very technical, you could say I was, insofar as I "am engaging in acts which I know to be detrimental to my long term well being in order to gain a short term benefit." But I think we both agree that the word "addiction" seems ridiculous to use in this case.

Now, I could just as easily I "smoke pot with" rather than "go to lunch with" and it would change nothing, aside from a different kind of damage (health vs. financial). So if you want to start applying the term to this, then you can see that you'll have to apply to a whole other range of silly scenarios as well.

Moreover, with regards to the semantic argument, I think that the line which you mean to draw is between habitual acts that do harm you and those that don't. Erego, heroin is an addiction and spinning poi is not. Am I correct?


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
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Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Tika:
quote:There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.
I have never felt so opposite in my life. We are all born with free will. The ability to choose. Addicts can choose to quit without that ability there is little hope. You can support your friends and family in "kicking the habit" but ultimately they are the one to make the decision to change their life. They are the ones to choose addiction or non-addiction. Of course an addict can 'choose' to quit. Every day many smokers choose to quit smoking; however the majority will fail.

I'm not saying that some of them won't eventually manage to quit after many attempts, and I'm not saying that a very few will succeed on their first attempt.

But, from my considerable experience and a look at the world situation, the vast majority of smokers who choose to quit will fail on that attempt.

There are people dying of lung cancer who despise themselves for smoking, yet can't face life without cigarettes.

This is the whole point of my post, I'm asking people to consider what we mean by choice when applied to drug situations.

Because if I have in front of me an apple and an orange, and choose to eat the orange, then I would not expect to find myself consuming the apple.

Yet people choose not to take whatever drug they have been using habitually, and next day or next month, find themselves back on it.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Stubbs I disagree. Your going to lunch with your friends has nothing to do with a social dependency. That is differnt animal all together.


If you join people that you like for a drink after work, and it makes you feel good to be accepted by them you will more than likly do it again the next time. And the next, and the next, and the next. A social dependency (please note the change in verbage) can lead to an alcohol problem.

If you dont believe me, ask people how they started drinking. I garunte that the majority started at a social event.

Granted this and all other examples have varied results because people are different. What happens to one person may not happen to another in the same situation.

Also I do believe I said not to read into what I said too much. You know, the getting addicted to going to the toilet thing.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
So what your saying is that the repeated habbit of putting a cigerret to your mouth isnt addictive?


I do find it humorus though, that out of all the docs that I know, the majority smoke! It is a cause for wonder.
1) I never made any assertion tthat a smoker wasn't addicted. Re-read my post carefully and stop putting words in my mouth. I love ya, Ray, but that's really annoying.

2) There is one smoker in my class of 170. I do not know a single other doctor who smokes and I assure you I know more doctors than you do. Maybe it's a military thing?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Lghtnng:
Some people call dependence "physical addiction" but this is a meaningless term. There is no such thing as "physical addiction." Your absolutly right, you never said that. Hrm... I musta pulled the above out of my ass!


And about there only being 1 guy in your class that smokes!! I am actually supprised. Hrm... well... like I said it was the Docs I know.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:quote: Because if I have in front of me an apple and an orange, and choose to eat the orange, then I would not expect to find myself consuming the apple.
Brilliant!


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Stone
Stream Entrant
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Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Good call Ray These are complicated issues that are mostly trivialised by the media, and by many people. quote: Do they take it (dex amphetamine) it for long enough to develop a chemical dependence.Dunno Ray, the thing was that they did not seem to be given much information or guidance on how to use go-pills effectively, which seemed pretty irresponsible! Apparently, squadrons were grounded because they overused these chemicals.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Stone, they are not just handed a pill and told to have fun. You dont seem to understand that when I said that the chemicals that our pilots put in their body is closly regulated. The Corpsmen and Flight Docs. have got to give the pilot a perscription to take anything stronger than over the counter pain killers.

They wouldnt be using it for a prolonged period and they wouldnt be flying if they had a chemical dependency. I am sorry but I can not believe that whole squadrons were grounded. If that happend the CO would be relieved of his command.

I must question how you know what guidance was given?? You saw a few case points, as if those few examples could vouch for the whole US Military.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
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Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, you say that anyone who uses an illegal drug is addicted, but as soon as the drug is prescribed and made legal, you sing a different tune?

It's the same molecule, you know.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Umm No. If I did say anything like that, I apologise because that is not what I meant.

I did however mean that all drugs are addictive.

Not if you try drugs once, your an addict.

I apologise for the confusion.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:Anything pleasurable is addictive. For instance, there are lots and lots of people who try drugs and stop because they don't find the effects pleasurable. Does this mean "addiction" only exists for a small number of people? Or that some people find different things pleasurable, ala addicting?

It just comes down to indulging. Sure I could eat constantly in an "addicted" manner, but I recognize that this is not healthy. Just as I recognize that eating masses of drugs is a bad idea, though I still enjoy it once in a while.

And as for hurting myself, well everything you do is destructive to yourself, it's the nature of being alive: to die. My intake of drugs is pleasurable, and if anything the ancient Greek philosophers said, not to speek anything of modern psychological ideas about pleasure principles, is true, then all the better for me. When I begin intaking drugs to bury my problems, or in some maladaptive way, thats a different story. That would be indulging in my pleasure, and as I already (think) I tried to point out, indulging in anything is bad.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by i8beefy2:
Anything pleasurable is addictive. For instance, There are many pleasurable things that are not addictive.

Drinking orange juice, walking in the sun, reading a book etc.

I'm not saying that there is no one who is addicted to these things, but the number of people addicted to walking in the sun is miniscule compared to the number addicted to cigarettes.

Also bear in mind that 'addiction' generally refers to something that is harmful.

Which brings us to : -
quote:Originally posted by i8beefy2:
And as for hurting myself, well everything you do is destructive to yourself, it's the nature of being alive: to die.There is a sense in which walking in the sun is harmful, but in no way comparable to the lung damaging and carcinogenic characteristics of smoking.

Your comment that 'everything you do is destructive' is a little strange. Eating for example is in some ways harmful, in that all food contains minor poisons; but the health benefits of eating far outweigh the harmful aspects.

The opposite is the case with most, if not all drugs. It is definitly the case with smoking, heroin and alcohol (above a certain level).

As for knowing your own levels and knowing whether you partake for pleasure or problem burying; drugs are notorious for creating confusion in knowing your own mind.

I don't think that there's a single person who one day decided they were going to start taking a little cocaine and alcohol then gradually build up; aiming for the day when they end up dead from an overdose.

They all go through a phase of knowing their level and being in control.

Some stay at that level, some end up out of control; of those, some escape and some don't; probably the only thing they had in common was a belief that they were in, and could remain in, control.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:I dont think the whole 'gateway drug' thing is a realistic appraisal of how people get onto hard drugs.

In Holland where they have given the populace legal access to weed (and good drug education), the number of people having hard drug overdoses has fallen. In fact, the number of people smoking weed has fallen too.

This seems to contradict the whole 'weed is the gateway to hard drugs and crime' theory being pursued so strongly in some countries.

perhaps you can give us another more plausible explanation for that?

Josh


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Josh:
I dont think the whole 'gateway drug' thing is a realistic appraisal of how people get onto hard drugs.

In Holland where they have given the populace legal access to weed (and good drug education), the number of people having hard drug overdoses has fallen. In fact, the number of people smoking weed has fallen too.

This seems to contradict the whole 'weed is the gateway to hard drugs and crime' theory being pursued so strongly in some countries.

perhaps you can give us another more plausible explanation for that?

Josh I wasn't referring to the 'gateway' theory whatsoever. I personally don't believe that weed is a gateway to harder drugs.

I do know for a fact though that it gets some people hooked on nicotine as spliffs generally contain tobacco which is a very addictive substance. (I also know people who started smoking cigarettes as a result of weed).

Whilst cigarette addiction is often regarded as trivial due to it's very slow method of killing and due to it's legality, the fact remains that it kills more people than all other drugs put together.

The fact also remains that every addict who finds themselves at the 'life ruined' point at some earlier point felt in control of their drug use.

A sure fire way to never become addicted is to not dabble with addictive substances in the first place.

I really don't want to comment further on 'gateway theories' and legislation, as I don't know that much about them.

I'd rather stick to the issue of choice which is the title of this thread and which very few of the pro drug posters seem to be addressing.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

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Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

I did however mean that all drugs are addictive.
Funny, I can't seem to find any cases of aspirin addiction. Or penicillin addiction. Not fair because those don't act on the CNS? Ok, find me a case of prozac addiction, then. You can't.

In order for addiction to a drug to occur, the drug must meet the following criteria:
1) The drug must have a relatively rapid onset (seconds to under an hour after administration).
2) The drug must act on the central nervous system.
3) The drug must have a short enough half-life that the effect wears off within several hours.

However, not all such drugs are addictive. For example, naloxone, which is an opioid antagonist, meets all of the above criteria and yet it does the opposite of morphine or heroin and is actually used to treat overdoses. You simply can't be addicted to it because it itself does not act on any receptors other than by blocking them.

For ADDICTION TO OCCUR (whether to a drug or to an activity), the activity must be associated with increased activity in the median forebrain bundle, the so-called "pleasure-reward pathway" in the brain. However, many things are associated with increased median forebrain bundle activity and addiction does not occur, so median forebrain bundle activity is just one component. If we knew the rest of it, we'd have a cure for addiction.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Lghtnng:
quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

I did however mean that all drugs are addictive.
Funny, I can't seem to find any cases of aspirin addiction. Or penicillin addiction. This thread seems to have become a meeting place for pedantics.

From the context of the discussion I think it's pretty obvious that Raymund wasn't referring to aspirin.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ray, not all drugs are addictive. Its pretty difficult to get addicted to LSD, as tolerance builds up rapidly, same with MDMA (a compound occasionally found in extasy pills) Prohibition doesnt work and education is the key. Pity those air force docs didnt educate the pilots.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:People should be able to make an informed choice as to whether or not they want to take drugs.

Josh


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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:quote: People should be able to make an informed choice as to whether or not they want to take drugs.

Josh
And they should also be able to make an informed and supported choice as to whether or not they want to continue taking drugs. However so often a person's continuing use of a drug, or any substance, is not an informed decision. They don't listen to the most important information of all, ie. how their body feels and responds. Instead they listen to how they think they should feel.

I suffer from periodic bouts of depression, although I haven't had one in a while. I am well aware that I must be careful what I take, as the effect it has upon me, may be totally different to that it has upon another. I need to listen to my body, and my indicators of depression, first and foremost.

Just as a side note, people in some more vulnerable groups find it very hard to make an informed decision. And it is not because of the "informed" bit, it is because of the "decision" bit. I teach young adults, who are just finishing their first year of work. Many of them are starting to look for jobs, and manage their careers. We give them lots and lots of information about jobs, where to find them, how to write a resume. But the toughest thing for them is to make their own decisions. They are very used to being in school, where you simply progress to the next year (you have to do pretty badly not to). So they are firstly unable to make the decision that they need to do something, and secondly find it hard to turn down jobs they don't want, because they don't realise they can make that decision.

I am only using this as an example, because being vulnerable isn't always about age. But the example shows that education is often a more difficult process than just putting lots of medical info in front of someone. It involves teaching people to take responsibility for their own decisions. Something that is fairly rare anyway.

have I inherited Pele's typewriter yet?


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Total posts: 2905
Posted:Mike, I really want to just flame you right now, just go off the damn wall, but Onewheeldave said it best, and I will leave it at that.


Stone, hehe with a month in Aus after a month in Thailand, my alcohol tolerance went pretty damn high and real fast too. Does that mean that alcohol isnt addictive? It may be hard but I garunte you someone out there is addicted to it.


If I need a break from reality, I go play my online RPG, Ultima Online. I roleplay, I dont need to jack up my brain on some chemical to get away, just a computer and the internet

Taking drugs for recreation, is an expensive and possibly deadly habbit. Why do people throw their money and their lives away for a temperary high?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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SmallBoy - x
SmallBoy - x

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London
Member Since: 29th May 2002
Total posts: 2737
Posted:You know how many people used to say that about me rock climbing?

Same goes for sky divers, base jumpers, horse riders, recreational pilots......

People chase their own buzz, just because you don't get off on it doesn't mean their isn't an attraction.....and just because people get a kick out of something doesn't mean their addicts.

That would be the people that feel a constant need for something......but then I realise how little my opinion actually counts because I'm "one of those stoners" who obviously isn't able to think clearly what with all my drug clouded judgements and all.........


Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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SmallBoy - x
SmallBoy - x

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London
Member Since: 29th May 2002
Total posts: 2737
Posted:That last sentence isn't a dig at anyone here before anyone gets offended without reading it properly.....

Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:There is more than one way to chase a buzz... your right. Perhaps people just havnt found an adiquate outlet for the chase, so the bend twords something more easily found?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:In an ideal world people would only make informed choices. Unfortunately, that is rarely the case.

(This applies to all choices, not just drugs.)

Raph


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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Hear Hear, Raphael...

(Charles goes back to silent observing again)


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* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:But a large part of the reason people dont make informed decisions is because the laws need supporting information so the populace believes in their neccessity. If the right wing conservative governments started desseminating more accurate information people would begin to wonder why the laws are the way they are...

oh no, cant have people thinking for themselves, whatever would happen next?

(and this goes for more than just drugs btw).

Josh


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Josh:
But a large part of the reason people dont make informed decisions is because the laws need supporting information so the populace believes in their neccessity. If the right wing conservative governments started desseminating more accurate information people would begin to wonder why the laws are the way they are...

oh no, cant have people thinking for themselves, whatever would happen next?

(and this goes for more than just drugs btw).

Josh So are you saying that people are capable of making good decisions about the pros and cons of drugs, but not capable of making good decisions concerning the information handed out by the government?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
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Total posts: 2905
Posted:Isnt it obvius that people do not have the ability to make sound choices? Why else would we have laws against murder and stealing, just to name a few?

If people arnt informed enough not to kill and steal, how in the world do you expect them to be informed enough to not injest harmfull substances into their bodies?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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