Page:
onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
In another thread about drug free spinning a few people said that taking drugs or not was a matter of personal choice.

I feel a little uneasy about applying that phrase to drugs as they tend to be addictive or habit forming substances.

i.e. they effectivly diminish or remove the ability to make choices. for example, someone who has never smoked can choose whether or not to light and smoke a cigarette, but someone who has a thirty a day habit and is severely addicted to nicotine no longer has that choice.

There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.

Whilst some drugs are considered non addictive, due to peer pressure and the pro drug marketing that is rife in our culture, choice is effectivly reduced.

I know that people shouldn't be influenced by such things, but humans are extremely suseptible to this- there wouldn't, for example, be so many drinks promotions if promotions didn't work.

The sad thing is that the young are most suseptible to this pro drug propaganda.

I was wondering what those of you who believe that taking drugs is a matter of personal choice, thought about this?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


CharlesBRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand


Posted:
quote:
Isnt it obvius that people do not have the ability to make sound choices? Why else would we have laws against murder and stealing, just to name a few?

There are no people in this world except people...confusing huh?
So if people do not have the baility ot make choices, then police, armed forces and politicians, who are people, don't have the ability to make choices either???


And even if, say 99% of the population were completely unable to make correct choices, what makes you think that they would consider you (or some other person) as the 1% to make all their decisions for them?

They would, as we all do, think they were the 1% and that you should do as THEY say.


I'm not even going to go into the 'reasons' why we have laws, but it is safe to assume it is for far more more complex reasons than that "people do not have the ability to make sound choices".


It may be time to reflect a lot on what you have said, and how it relates to your own inability to make sound choices, just as much as my lack of the same ability.

We ALL have the ability to make sound choices really, but the trick is being able to tell them apart from the unsound ones we make.

aye...there's the rub!

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by frostypaw:
quote:
The opposite is the case with most, if not all drugs. It is definitly the case with smoking, heroin and alcohol (above a certain level).
Common mistakes... alcohol's damaging at any level and heroin IS NOT


Here's the actual quote in its full context: -
-----------------------
Your comment that 'everything you do is destructive' is a little strange. Eating for example is in some ways harmful, in that all food contains minor poisons; but the health benefits of eating far outweigh the harmful aspects.

The opposite is the case with most, if not all drugs. It is definitly the case with smoking, heroin and alcohol (above a certain level).
---------------------------

Firstly, as 99% of users are taking street heroin, that is the kind I am referring to here; as you yourself have pointed out street heroin definitly does more harm to the body than good.

Secondly, even with pure heroin, if we're being precise, the quote holds true as the opposite of 'the health benefits of heroin far outweigh the harmful aspects' is 'the health benefits of heroin do not outweigh the harmful aspects'.

Unless you're claiming that pure heroin is not only not harmful, but actually improves health.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
https://theantidrug.com/drug_info/index.html


quote:
Usually smoked as a cigarette or joint, or in a pipe or bong, marijuana has appeared in "blunts" in recent years. These are cigars that have been emptied of tobacco and re-filled with marijuana, sometimes in combination with another drug, such as crack. Some users also mix marijuana into foods or use it to brew tea.

The main active chemical in marijuana is THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol). Short-term effects of marijuana use include problems with memory and learning; distorted perception; difficulty in thinking and problem-solving; loss of coordination; and increased heart rate, anxiety, and panic attacks.

Health Hazards

Effects of Marijuana on the Brain. Researchers have found that THC changes the way in which sensory information gets into and is acted on by the hippocampus. This is a component of the brain's limbic system that is crucial for learning, memory, and the integration of sensory experiences with emotions and motivations. Investigations have shown that THC suppresses neurons in the information-processing system of the hippocampus. In addition, researchers have discovered that learned behaviors, which depend on the hippocampus, also deteriorate.

Effects on the Lungs. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers have. These individuals may have daily cough and phlegm, symptoms of chronic bronchitis, and more frequent chest colds. Continuing to smoke marijuana can lead to abnormal functioning of lung tissue injured or destroyed by marijuana smoke.

Regardless of the THC content, the amount of tar inhaled by marijuana smokers and the level of carbon monoxide absorbed are three to five times greater than among tobacco smokers. This may be due to marijuana users inhaling more deeply and holding the smoke in the lungs.


Effects of Marijuana Use during Pregnancy. Research has shown that babies born to women who used marijuana during their pregnancies display altered responses to visual stimuli, increased tremulousness, and a high-pitched cry, which may indicate problems with neurological development. During infancy and preschool years, marijuana-exposed children have been observed to have more behavioral problems and to perform tasks of visual perception, language comprehension, sustained attention, and memory more poorly than nonexposed children do. In school, these children are more likely to exhibit deficits in decision-making skills, memory, and the ability to remain attentive.

Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use on Learning and Social Behavior. A study of college students has shown that critical skills related to attention, memory, and learning are impaired among people who use marijuana heavily, even after discontinuing its use for at least 24 hours. Researchers compared 65 "heavy users," who had smoked marijuana a median of 29 of the past 30 days, and 64 "light users," who had smoked a median of 1 of the past 30 days. After a closely monitored 19- to 24-hour period of abstinence from marijuana and other illicit drugs and alcohol, the undergraduates were given several standard tests measuring aspects of attention, memory, and learning. Compared to the light users, heavy marijuana users made more errors and had more difficulty sustaining attention, shifting attention to meet the demands of changes in the environment, and in registering, processing, and using information. The findings suggest that the greater impairment among heavy users is likely due to an alteration of brain activity produced by marijuana.
Longitudinal research on marijuana use among young people below college age indicates those who used have lower achievement than the non-users, more acceptance of deviant behavior, more delinquent behavior and aggression, greater rebelliousness, poorer relationships with parents, and more associations with delinquent and drug-using friends.

The facts about pot, go ahead, try to dissmiss them.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
hahaha not very good reaseach!


Sorry man thats fact, you cant argue with it. If you actually looked at the link, you would see on the left side of the screen research about alcohol, and frankly, knowing the facts should help with an addiction. It isnt the cure, but it should help.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
There is more to it than a chemical addiction.
Who cares what I was talking about a few posts ago, what I talked about then was fact.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
Ray - the only problem I have about the above post is the website starts with:
theantidrug.com

From the off you can kind of guess it's not going to give a neutral view

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


mrFlibbleSILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK


Posted:
i wish that people wouldn't try to control others behaviour, provided that behaviour is not physically harmful to others.

and a long list of harmful effects is pointless when ALL substances have harmful effects if you have too much or too little, or if they get into your body in the wrong place.

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Isnt it obvius that people do not have the ability to make sound choices? Why else would we have laws against murder and stealing, just to name a few?
The difference is that murder and theft cause tangible and direct harm to others. Smoking weed in the privacy of my own house harms nobody other than myself. It certainly causes nobody else any more harm than, say, drinking alcohol or smoking tobacco, both of which are legal.

I defy you to give me one good reason why alcohol should remain legal while marijuana should not.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by mrFlibble:



and a long list of harmful effects is pointless when ALL substances have harmful effects if you have too much or too little, or if they get into your body in the wrong place.

There's a huge difference between the cancer causing properties of tobacco and the harmful effects of substanceslike water.

Normal use of tobbacco WILL result in a significantly increased risk of cancer/herat disease etc; whilst substances like water are only harmful with gross over consumption.

Lists of the genuine harmful consequences of drug use are every bit as useful as lists of the harmful effects of substances like asbestos.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by frostypaw:
but if you're banging on about addiction weed isn't addictive... well barely

certainly never heard of someone having a weed overdose or not being able to give it up

I've known a lot of people who can't give up weed.

I'm not saying this as an argument to not smoke weed, I just want to challenge the common belief that people never get damaged or end up being compelled to take it.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Mike, I cant give you a reason, both effect your brain and body in negitive ways.

In fact they should all be illeagle.

Ohh and if you think you are just hurting yourself, why dont you take a look at the "If it doesnt hurt anybody" thread (or whatever I called it).


Is it worth going to jail and not finishing school? I bet that would hurt your parents.

The actual act may not hurt anyone but you, but the conciquences... they could do more harm than you could ever think.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


mrFlibbleSILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK


Posted:
the whole topic is academic really since as long as drugs exist people will use them regardless of laws or not.

the more people are told they can't/shouldn't do something, the more they will. stating the obvious i know

a never ending argument for and against just gets boring as most people will never change their views.

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Ohh Mr. Hate himself IE Frosty... actually man, I think that if one is illeagle they all should be. And yes I do drink from time to time.


The reason they should all be illeagle is that they effect your brain and body in a negitive way. They are harmfull end of story.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by frostypaw:

OneWheelDave - i'm interested to hear about these weed addicts tho, what happened when they did try and give up? actual ill effects or was it more of a habit than a physical addiction?

Similar to cigarettes, at some point they get fed up with some aspect of their weed taking (e.g. paranoia, expense, the way it's affecting their work/studies) and make a decision to give up.

A while later they end up buying some more.

Generally it's when people have been using it for a fair while.

I suspect it's several factors e.g. the fact that much of their social life has become focused around weed, maybe the addictive qualities of the tobacco in spliffs.

Also, weed can be seen as a source of comfort and way of relaxing; attempting to rid your life of it can be a major change and cause of stress, so the act of trying to move away from it puts you in the situation in which you would normally turn to it for comfort.

I should make clear that a lot of the people I know of weren't just having the odd spliff now and again; they were regulars consuming from an eighth to a half ounce or more per week.

At that level it becomes a lifestyle.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Mike, I cant give you a reason, both effect your brain and body in negitive ways.

In fact they should all be illeagle.

Ohh and if you think you are just hurting yourself, why dont you take a look at the "If it doesnt hurt anybody" thread (or whatever I called it).

So you are fighting for "freedom," but in your vision of freedom, people don't have the freedom to make choices that affect their own bodies.

It sounds like hyopcracy to me, Ray, not freedom. In fact, it sounds like a step in the road to totalitarianism.

And I strongly disagreed with you in your "if it doesn't hurt anybody" thread. I believe that you are making things your business that ought not to be. Freedom requires the liberty to mess yourself up. What we CAN and SHOULD do is do a much better job of educating people on the harm that they can cause themselves. But ultimately, we can't force choices.

So, Ray, I'll tell you what: you put your money where your mouth is. You think that all drugs, including alcohol, are so bad, STOP DRINKING. I mean complete abstinence. Until you do that, you're simply a hypocrite.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


i8beefy2GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA


Posted:
So if it's illegal we should just go ahead and destroy the species right? I mean, this wonderfull miracle of plant evolution, which is one of, if not the most evolved plant species on the planet, just because we have to "protect people from themselves". Yes it's harmfull, but maybe people take the view that we all are going to die some day, so you might as well die doing something you love. Should we ban skydiving and bungi jumping because they are potentially dangerous? How about poi for it's environmentally and personally damaging fumes? Chocolate because its made from a cocoa bean? Salvia Divinorum because some people have just begun to realize its hallucinagenic effects? How about we destroy the fungal kingdom because a family therein contains psilocybin?

Of course that is all absurd. It is impossible to kill off a plant species (Though we've done pretty good with animal species so far). These things will always be around, telling someone they can't have it isn't going to stop someone from wanting it if they already do. If it exists here naturally, it is our human right to have access to it if we so choose.

Everything dies, getting on the immortality trip and saying that living as long as possible is "everyones" goal will not change that. Even the Greek's realized that not everyone agreed on what makes a "Good and happy life" (Socrates just took them down a logical progression in The Republic... quite easy to do with any ignorant people really. Luckily others came to ask similar questions and find differing answers over the coming centuries) One of my favorite things to do is to smoke and go lay outside and enjoy the sun or play with my poi and such. Doing so wears down parts of my body and shortens my life span, but I enjoy it. I make a judgement call, just as you do, and I find that I would rather be HAPPY in life, in the way that I enjoy, then live an extra 10 years. Why, so I can see how messed up the world gets in those extra years?

All of life is suffering, and happiness comes in small doses as long as you are so attached to it. I like to take it where I can get it. My family knows about my habits, in fact it is often a discussion at family dinner gatherings when I piss someone off with my philosophical views. They all are ok with it, and only a few of them try to pull it out as a "bad thing" once in a while, but a quick talley of my life accomplishments usually quiets them. Contrary to popular belief, pothead does not equal failure. Just as coke head does not always mean failure... sometimes it just means lawer, or doctor, or some other well paid profession that can actually AFFORD it. I find in my experience it is often the MONEY issue involved in drugs that is "destructive". Not being able to make wise financial decissions, like whether to buy a bag or groceries... well some people may need help with that. I know several social workers who have to go shopping with their clients to assure they buy FOOD and not BEER, same concept.

At the same time though, I am not excessive in my usage, so perhaps I am speeking from my mountain presupposing similar values in other potheads, which I realize is not always the case. All of my friends fair the same as I though, so I have an inflated sample size of people under similar good standing in the face of their "destructive behavior". I still do everything I have to do, even if it is harder to build the motivation sometimes. People who ABUSE drugs (I don't consider myself an abuser, just a user) usually have many skeletons in their closets that make them retreat into drug use...

Where was society trying to help them when they really HAD problems? No, better to wait until they do something illegal so we can just lock them up. Great, back to pre-1970's deinstitutionalism asylum structure. Society likes to hide its problems instead of deal with them.

Finally on the legality issue (Sorry, just drank a can of mountain dew and you got me started ), if it WERE legal, I wouldn't have any problems. Because I wouldn't buy it, I would grow it. Which goes to show, you could brew your own beer, and still so few people do it. Or wine which is even easier! Save lots of money in the longrun. I guess the means that laziness is self destructive... oh oh! Better make that illegal! Oh but then every philosophical view that centers around non-doing (something that may be alien to some neo-Protestant work ethic social structures like ours) would have their freedoms of religious practice and persuit of happiness infringed upon.

Persuit of happiness... as long as it's cleared with Big Brother first apparently...

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by frostypaw:
Gotta say mate that "a while later they end up buying some more" doesn't sound like a damaging addiction to me

i mean i like pizza, sometimes i stop eating that as i know it's fatty - and a while later i end up buying some more and eating it with my friends, but i wouldn't call that a bad addiction.

Maybe I put it a little mildly so as not to provoke an argument on this sensitive issue.

What I meant was that they would get totally sick of the negative aspects of using large amounts of weed for many years, so it had got to the point where they didn't have a single friend who was not either selling weed to them, or buying weed from them.

Where the main priority of the their week would be the aquisition of their supply and the usual way of funding their personal habit would be to buy extra and deal it to their friends. This would be a cause of much extra stress in their life (as legal penalties for dealing are harsh) and add to their desire to get out.

So what I am saying is that they made a decision to escape from a fairly hellish existence, yet, at some point in the future, would find themselves right back in it.

I would say that the above scenario in no way resembles your pizza experiences.

Incidently, the above scenario does relate to the title and original post of this thread which was about the issues of taking substances which are addictive or habit forming and therefore reduce the individuals ability to make rational choice.

Many of the recent posts on this thread are not about that, but instead are peoples opinions of the pros/cons of drugs.

I can also see that, as opinions on that subject are quite strong, there is scope for some pointless and aggressive arguing.

I would ask that further posts here stay on topic. If someone feels the need for discussing pros/cons of drugs it is a simple matter to start a new thread on the subject.

To aid in this I have put the original post below.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Here is the thread starter, please note that it is not about pros/cons of drugs, but about choice and the issue of taking choice reducing substances: -

-----------------------------------
In another thread about drug free spinning a few people said that taking drugs or not was a matter of personal choice.

I feel a little uneasy about applying that phrase to drugs as they tend to be addictive or habit forming substances.

i.e. they effectivly diminish or remove the ability to make choices. for example, someone who has never smoked can choose whether or not to light and smoke a cigarette, but someone who has a thirty a day habit and is severely addicted to nicotine no longer has that choice.

There are millions of smokers in the world who find it impossible to kick their habit, effectivley they have lost their ability to choose.

Whilst some drugs are considered non addictive, due to peer pressure and the pro drug marketing that is rife in our culture, choice is effectivly reduced.

I know that people shouldn't be influenced by such things, but humans are extremely suseptible to this- there wouldn't, for example, be so many drinks promotions if promotions didn't work.

The sad thing is that the young are most suseptible to this pro drug propaganda.

I was wondering what those of you who believe that taking drugs is a matter of personal choice, thought about this?
--------------------------------

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
quote:
Originally posted by frostypaw:
But people do still have choice - and different drugs affect people differently that's why the discussion has fragmented some

for some drug A poses that risk - for others it does not

and certainly whether they are addictive or not applies to that

certainly i've never met a dope smoker in the state you describe, indeed most just stop or regulate their usage better than most drinkers i know - but they did manage to stop... maybe after that they needed to change their social circle and didn't *shrugs* i wouldn't know

thing is person by person drug by drug it's different, even nicotene, one of the worlds most addictive substances, can be given up - there is the choice - just are you willing to pay the price?

So are we in agreement that some people, using some drugs lose their ability to choose to not take that drug?

I'm not talking about being stuck forever, but that they are in a situation where they definitly want to not use the drug anymore, but are compelled to do so by something beyond their control.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
i beleive weather you are an addict or not you have a choice. addicts stop taking whatever drug was their 'little friend' and become 'clean'. there has to be some sort of choosing going on.

all drugs altar ablitiy to make dicisions, espeacially the dicision to continue or discontinue taking that drug, as it has positives and negitives, so we make the decision based on the effects.

given time the negitives of drugs will always become small enough that the benifits seem worth while to take that drug again. in other cases like tobacco if you don't continue taking you feel like shit, hence its actually addictive, but still a decision can be made to injure some pain for a reletively short time for long term benifit.

drugs will always be desireable because there effects are usually quickly felt and intense in comparison to the alternative options that can require greater effort for less imediate benifit.

drugs do limit your ablity to choose but once you make the decision to live your life free from 'drugs' your ablity to make decisions increases. drugs are beautiful, they are great teachers, but you are the one who decides what is taught, how can it not be your decision?

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Frosty, you have show me nothing but hate, even after I extended the olive branch. Frankly man, you just opend the wrong can of worms.

Hey Mike... so you never answerd what your folks would think if their good doctor son ever got busted for pot and kicked out of school. Whats wrong? Did I prove that what you do in the privicy of your own home, to yourself, may not just harm yourself, but may harm others that you love and love you?

Mike, I dont drink illeagly, I did, for about a month, but what you do isnt just slightly illeagle, you get busted enough times you've commited a fellonly. Do you think someone wants a convicted fellon with a drug problem working in their hospital?

You got some balls man, sitting there on your couch tokin it up with how many years of college on the line? What are going to do when you are forced to take a urinalisis? Uhh ohh there goes what 8 years of schooling?

You call me a hipocrite because I feel that if one should be illeagle they all should be, yet I have drank alcohol? Pretty pithy if you ask me. You're practically a doctor for Pete's sake, you are supposed to be the embodyment of good health, yet you smoke! That makes about as much sence as a soup sandwich!


Why dont you tell the good people what doctors do to a patient who has tried to slit their wrists? Here you can just confirm and or correct what I say; after you stop the bleeding and dress the wound, you tie their arms to their bed and ship em off to the psych ward. You attempt to get them the propper psychological help. I know I am not exact but thats the jist of it right?


Now you say, do what you want as long as it only hurts yourself, its okay. Now how in the world do you get that? All the person has done is try to hurt themselves.

Ahhhh I get it, you can try to kill yourself slowly, thats okay, but if you try to kill yourself quickly... then you get tied to a bed!

What is the difference between taking a chemical that, with repeated use, will eventually kill you, and taking a razor to your wrist?

In my eyes I dont see a difference.

Is that being a tyrant, or is that showing that I care for someone who I dont even know?


To be honest, all you are doing is crying like a little child, "Mommy, Ray is being mean, he says that I shouldn't kill myself... waahhh wahhh wahhh"

Sound rediculous?

If you want to take drugs, save yourself the money, just jump of a bridge and get it over with. Quit wasting my time and my money!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


CharlesBRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand


Posted:
Raymund...I feel you are wasting everybody elses time in this thread at the moment.

People respond to your posts, several times, in a pleasant but not nbecesarily sigreeing manner.

Then you start to make anti-social comments that border on direct insults, to anyone who disagrees with your views.

You have even refused to explain your view, and just told people to see it your way.

Of course people get agressive back, but it seems they take a lot more open critiscism than you. In my mind, it seems you almost look for critiscism when it isn't there, in the middle of posts actually discussing the topic at hand.

This thread is VERY close to being the most negative, insult riddled, emarassment on HoP at the moment.

It stops NOW!

Frosty and Raymund. You two seem to be the main protaginists (I know there are others but not in the volume of posts) in this and I'm sorry to have to ask this...but...

Your contributions are making this thread an unpleasant, unwelcoming and unfriendly place to be.

Respectfully, I request you both continue this discussion with each other via email, or Private Message.

I think it's time we let others have their say in a more pleasant environment.

Many thanks, the both of you, and we welcome your contributions on other threads.

HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?


mrFlibbleSILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK


Posted:
and raymund you can't spell

Raymund Phule (Fireproof)Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California


Posted:
Whatever Frosty, I have said what I needed to in PM to Charles, if someone else wants to carry on fine. I'll just give one last bit of advice.

Follow the law and you will do fine, you dont have to agree with it or support it, just follow it.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
A lot of people are saying that addicts have a choice to stop.

So I think we need to investigate ways in which the choices of an addict differ from those of a non addict.

When a free person choices, for example, to visit a friend in two hours time, generally they end up going to see their friend. Things can come up which change it, maybe a family emergency; but on the whole they end up doing what they have chosen.

When an addict chooses not to smoke/take heroin anymore, they frequently end up doing the opposite of what they have chosen.

Admittedly, at the point they break down and reach for the cigarette/needle, they are in a sense choosing to do so; but isn't there a sense in which they are being compelled to do it?

There is within them a battle with part of them wanting to not use it and another part wanting to.

It is perhaps a shame that the word 'choice' applies to all these situations, because I do see a very clear difference in the situation where a person chooses to visit a friend and the situation where a addict reaches for a substance which they despise, simply because they can't take the pain of being without any more.

Maybe we need to think in degrees of choice i.e. for most people choosing to visit a friend is easy to do.

Whereas, and I'm sure that the most ardent supporter of peoples right to take drugs would agree here; some choices are harder to make and stick to, such as when a long term smoker/heroin addict chooses to quit taking their drug.

Harder in the sense that it's going to take a lot of work and committment to succeed in that choice.

So here's a point: -

As supporters of peoples right to choose, isn't there something paradoxical about taking substances which make choices harder?

If you are fully committed to the belief that every human being should be as free as possible to make their own choices, is it possible to condone the use of substances which make it harder for a person to choose freely.

Many of you are fiercely opposed to state oppression and attacks on personal liberty, isn't there a sense in which addictive drugs are an attack on liberty?

To put this consisely, some of you seem to be saying that, even if addictive drugs reduce an individuals ability to choose, that individual still has a right to choose them.

Then what about an analogy where a individual exercises their right to choose to live under a fascist regime i.e. they choose to have their right to choose diminished/taken away.

Let me make clear again that I am not saying drugs are bad/wrong simply raising the issue of how some of the consequences of (addictive) drug taking can affect liberty.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Kurobeimember
786 posts
Location: The Phire Kru


Posted:
this sounds a lot like the suicide law in the UK, you can be jailed for attempted suicide because taking your own life is illegal.

how messed up does that sound? oh yes, we live in democracy where people have the right to freedoms and the basic human right to choose what is best for them but if you decide that life is just not worth living, you cant do anything about it without breaking the law, therefore you are condoned to live under the very democracy that takes those rights away from you.
just a brief glimpse of the workd we live in and the rediculous rules we follow

whats up with all the limitations?


Kurobeimember
786 posts
Location: The Phire Kru


Posted:
thats the other thing....drugs should be illegal? what about substances like Salva Divinorum, Datura, Liberty caps, Fly Agairc and Peyote, ALL of these substances are perfectly legal and Datura is one of the most dangerous plants about, even experienced shamans who use the plant regularly hold it in great respect as they know powerfull the effects can have, the dangers of Datura are far more formidable than those of ecstacy for example.
there is a difference between the majority of natural and man-made drugs (apart from the obvious all you smart arses!!)in that the man-made, chemical variety on the whole, seem to be more addictive and usually the effects are felt quicker than their natural counterparts, this can help indicate how violently they ravage our systems.

all of the above-mentioned legal drugs are hallucinogens of sorts, this makes me wonder why cannabis is illegal as it can be classed as a mild halucinogen (although some cross-strains would have you think otherwise) so why for the last 40 odd years has one of the softest, most palletable and enjoyable drugs on the market can be so harshly victimised?
all of this bullshit about cannabis being a "gateway" drug is laughable propoganda being spouted by the government and now its become a new catchphrase for parents worried about the possible drug use at their childrens' schools, cannabis is no more a "gateway" drug than tobacco or alcohol, the alcoholism level in this country is absurd and its one of the major contributing factors to the trouble with some of our football fans, they think they need to be so near to unconsiousness to enjoy themselves that violence has become part of the enjoyment, if thats not a "gateway" drug then what is? how many stoners do you see shouting, throwing stuff about and starting fights? hardly any

remember, im not saying that any of these drugs aren't harmless to you, too much of anything can kill us but if you think that even eating your breakfast is contributing to the decay of your body then innocent things like a bowl of shreddies (although they are made by evil evil nestle) take on a different light.

[ 08. September 2003, 04:59: Message edited by: Kurobei ]

whats up with all the limitations?


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Kurobei- you're off topic. This isn't a thread about whether or not drugs should be legal, or whether or not drugs are bad.

It's about a specific issue relating to drugs and choice. I've recently reposted the initial post to clarify this.

Whilst the points you raise are of value they would be better on a new thread maybe entitled 'drugs and the law'?

If you look at the progress of this thread it will be obvious that people have very strong views on the pros/cons of drugs and this has at various points led to aggression and unpleasantness.

If we keep on topic the chances of this happening again will be minimised.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Itsgottabmember
244 posts
Location: NZ


Posted:
is liberty the freedom of choice? all things effect or have an influence on choices. drugs being an obivous one. other things such as relationships with people and places effect your liberty as well, prepahs in more powerful ways than drugs do. and that could be the reason for taking the choice limiter in the first place, because most young people feel they have no choices. escape to the happy place, escape to the happy place.


the education people need is to visit communities and peoples whose beliefs are different. drug takers/pushers and the many other types of communities and cultures. a perspective over time, say as children from 15 to 20 even older, prepahs much older for some. the community presective is important because as an individuals we will see the lifestyles which seem to be more joy promoting then we can follow the path we deem best.
overseas exchange programs at high school usually result in people that are much better at making choice promoting decision as opposed to choice ristricting ones.

CharlesBRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand


Posted:
I think Liberty is the opportunity to choose freedom of choice.

It's an ideal, not an actual state that truly exists anywhere in the world.

There are so many events both within and outside our control that limit our ability to choose.

Drugs are one of those grey/gray areas where the initial choice is up to the individual (one would hope at least) but there is a high chance that after that choice has been made, the ability to choose 'no' becomes impaired.

This is a simple fact of life, some choices take us closer to liberty and some take us further away.

Some of these choices are made by us, some are made by others and some are environmental (including problems of the flesh).

No-one can truly know the full extent of their choice until after the fact, although i feel drugs are one of those areas where we have a good chance of understanding what might happen if we are educated properly.


Does that answer anything or does it provoke more questions?

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