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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I have heard many times that people should be allwed to do whatever they want as long as they dont hurt anyone else.

Do you honestly feel this way? If so why?

To me, if your hurting yourself, then it is not okay.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:yes and no, i say it alot, especially as far as drugs go, yes i think let ppl do what they want if it isnt someone i care deeply for, no if it is, if its someone i care deeply for i do my best to explain the damage they are doing to themselves. if after all that they choose to do it anyway there is nothing else that i can do as it is their life

i look at it like if someone told me how dangerous fire twirling was i wouldnt stop because i feel safe doing it, i would listen to what they have to say but ultimately thats my choice in the same way that what other ppl do is their choice.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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RoDuS
member
Location: Australia qld
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 50
Posted:yes but what ever someone does there is always someone thats loves them that will be hurt from it.
If someone starts taking drugs then if they get into it bad they will prolly go round stealing from the people they live with friends, family, people that dont even know... what ever someone does imho will always hurt someone else.


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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:that's too vague a statement if ya ask me

there's consequences to consider - possibly long reaching - which may not be immediately obvious when something "doesn't hurt anyone else" right away

the drug-based examples above are good examples of this


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Libra
Libra

member
Location: Norway
Member Since: 13th Nov 2001
Total posts: 47
Posted:people also say something like "What they don't know wont hurt them" So.. if you do something bad or stupid and NOONE knows or notice -and never will.. is that ok?



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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:quote:Originally posted by RoDuS:
yes but what ever someone does there is always someone thats loves them that will be hurt from it.
If someone starts taking drugs then if they get into it bad they will prolly go round stealing from the people they live with friends, family, people that dont even know... what ever someone does imho will always hurt someone else. Nice to see someone trotting out the "drugs will turn you into an antisocial criminal" line Despite what the tabloids will tell you it is perfectly possible to lead a normal life and take drugs...


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:We can never know the full extent of our actions...We can feel we understand SOME of them, but there is no real way of knowing how far they can reach.

In general, hurt doesn't stay put. Just like a laugh or smile brightens up other people, so pain and suffering also affects other people. whether first hand, or reading about it in the paper etc etc.

The whole concept to me of "I'm only hurting myself" is not only weak minded and a sad rationale, but it is completely and utterly wrong.

There's enough bad stuff in this world that has nothing to do with personal decisions, why the hell shoudl we add even one second of extra crap to it?


Maybe a little off-topic, but the way I try to live my life is not to do anything I wouldn't want everyone else in the world to know about. I aspire to this notion, and am nowhere near achieving it as agoal, yet I am happy with the small changes that have occurred so far.

If you do something that hurts you and only you, would you be comfortable with everyone in the world knowing what you did? No, you wouldn't because no matter what anyone says in words, what other people think is very important to everyone (in my opinion).

A friend of mine at Uni, said he didn't care what other people thought, and refused point blank to purchase the Cranberries current album because everyone else had bought it.

I tried to explain to him, that he was STILL being influenced by everyone else, he just chose a negative rather than positive reaction to it. We talked about this at length and I found out he actually liked the music and felt trapped because he shouldn't buy it as it was popular?

Nuts! But very very common in lesser or greater degrees.

The "I'm only hurting myself" notion is one of the strongest degrees of this. The mere fact that this type of arguement is used instead of "NOONE IS GETTING HURT" shows that they aren't happy about in themselves but are choosing indignity at societies attempts to help, rather than admit the truth.

I have no doubt people will try to argue against what I have just said...likely with the very indignity I just mentioned.

In my opinion, we should all strive to lead a 'good' life, and an course of action that takes us away form we consider, as individuals, to be good, is harmful to us and to those we interact with.

In my opinion, of course...


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Drugs have been a positive influence on my life both as a tool and as a source of enjoyment and while there have been times when they've caused a negative effect those times are far outweighed by the positive. And at the end of the day there are very few decisions and acts in life in which there are no negative consequences at all and we simply have to consider and weigh the costs and benefits, and for me the benefits of drugs outweighs the costs.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:*beams at Charles who's just spoken more sense than he's used to Ever hearing from other people*

HEAR BLOODY HEAR

i try and live my life as an open book because of this - if you're doing something you're ashamed of it's probably 'cos it's wrong.

there's afedavits to that though - eg. there are a lot of people who'd want me to feel ashamed for being gay or that doing anythign about it is a sin - this is just nonsense and has to be got past

so you gotta examine what you're ashamed of - what things you have to hide - and ask why

and in the end you can end up with a life that you Know will not harm others - that you know you can go through life in a graceful arc and only do good or at least try and only leave things better than you found them

to my mind a far better philosophy to live by than many others including "if it doesn't hurt anybody..."


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Libra
Libra

member
Location: Norway
Member Since: 13th Nov 2001
Total posts: 47
Posted:I will not argue against your opinion, charles. It makes sence quote:In my opininon, we should all strive to lead a 'good' life, and an course of action that takes us away fromm we consider, as individuals, to be good, is harmful to us and those we interact with Yes..

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Hmm. I've had people tell me that what they're doing doesn't hurt anyone as a justification for their behaviour. But there's a big difference between knowing this and thinking it. If you know it, do it. But you may think you know without knowing the truth.

If you use drugs it may not hurt anyone where you are, but unless you know exactly where the drugs come from you don't know who has been hurt in order to provide you with them.

(I'm the last person to lecture anyone about drugs, but it is a good example of what I'm trying to say.)


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:The same could be said about the bread you're eating, or the coffee you drink....

tis one reason why i wish they'd legalise weed though - so i could know where the money goes

atm i sorta know... it's going to a family who support themselves with a small farm that'll do nicely! almost feels like a good cause lol


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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kaza
newbie
Location: England
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 29
Posted:There have been some good points made, and in life you should definatley try and spread a little sunshine (god I sound like a hippy ) and think about the local and global consequences of your actions. Think globally, act locally. Set by example.

But you also shouldn't get yourself in a situation where you are hurt by others action, or hurt others by your actions. This is not so much achieved by what you do, but by educating those around you, and making sure you understand all aspects of something before making a wroght iron descission on it.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hrm... Ill keep my coments to myself for a little while longer.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Deimos
Deimos

Cinnamon Girl
Location: Hfx, NS, Canada
Member Since: 22nd Aug 2003
Total posts: 191
Posted:There's also the whole idea of physicaly hurting someone or mentally, emotionaly hurting someone. Even though there's several ways to hurt someone/yourself, they unfortunately seem to come hand in hand.
I have several close friends who purposely hurt themselves out of depression, so whilst they're physically hurting themselves, they're emotionaly hurting everyone who cares about them.
I'm the kind of person who stand to see anyone get hurt, so even if there's a complete stranger hurting themselves or others I feel like I can't just stand by, like I just can'tignore it.
In wicca, one of the biggest rules to follow is "An it harm none, do what thou wilt"
I personaly think that oneself should be included in the whole "none" bit.


P*L*U*R

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:In wicca, one of the biggest rules to follow is "An it harm none, do what thou wilt"
I personaly think that oneself should be included in the whole "none" bit.but it IS included...

this is one of my main complaints towards the so called "wiccans" (i.e. not the ones who respect it properly)

for many people it becomes an excuse to adopt the very mentality that Ray mentions at the beginning of this thread - i'm not hurting anyone else so let's go - with minimum thought

it's good to see wiccans remembering that it means more than just immediately here and now and others. It means Forever and Everyone


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:This is an interesting one.

In essence I agree.
However nothing in life is simple, and as we are creatures involved in a complex web of social interaction almost everything we do afects someone else. Careful thought must be given when using this statement.

Also I note that it's interesting to look into the implications of the other way to state this: "Don't do anything that hurts others". This is unattainable as a constant rule for life. Throughout our life we will hurt people, there's no way to avoid it.

In the end I reckon you've got to try to strike the impossible balance between what's good for you and those around you, and what's bad for you and those around you.


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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:I have to agree with many things said here and yet one thing comes to my mind :
you are not always responsible for hurting others if you are being true to your heart.

for example being gay and coming out peacefully in order to live your life in all honesty might hurt annoy chock others but i do not think one should not live the way their heart whispers because one carries all the wieght of other people s issues.

same went for me for the past 28 years trying to please so many people and not always following my heart. I have finally dcided to live my life and be happy and allthough it has not been easy for everyone to accept it and first maybe hurt them I am glad I tookl that decision. those turning their back on me in pain are probably people who have their own issues and are projecting stuff on me and I cannot be held reponsible for it.

I think one has to be truthfull and rather than saying to never hurt anyone I think above all I value people being RESPONSIBLE for their acts...

tht being said I wish noone hurt or pain or sadness and do my best to make others smile and bubble with laughter

shine on
cass


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:My view is that as long as you aren't demonstrably hurting someone else, and as long as you are of sound mind, then what you do with yourself is your own business.

I think it's VERY dangerous to start traveling down the road of telling people what they can and can't do alone behind closed doors. And it's a road that the Right in the U.S. seems to keep wanting to go down.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:If you are just being you, yet you still hurt someone (no intentions to hurt someone at all), is that their fault or yours?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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mrFlibble
Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK
Member Since: 1st Mar 2003
Total posts: 455
Posted:the idea that you shouldn't do a particular activity because it might "emotionally" hurt others, is just emotional blackmail in an effort to control your behaviour - simply others trying to control you.

as a control freak (only of myself ) i find that MORE than intensely annoying.


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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:I'm not sure what you are asking Ray.

if the fact that i am me and exist hurts one random person such as me travelling and some people feel resentment cause they wish blablabla... or something like that I do not care it is THEIR problem. If it hurts someone i am close to i will talk it over with them.

If being me hurts my friend or partner then I will also to try and see it with their point of view and understand what exactly it is taht hurts them, if I can help this at all or not. THis is when I speak for me about the importance of taking responsability.
I think one can do sometimes something thinking this is harmless and true to oneself and do crazy damage. Taking responsability for one s act is sometimes being able to say : I surely did not mean to therefore am not "guilty" but I still am responsible for your sorrow and apologize it ever hurt you.
I also am thankfull in a weird way because the few times I have "accidentally" hurt close people I have heard their words and grown so very much from it... learning from mistakes or bad actions is a proof of intelligence I guess, intelligence of the heart mainly.

hmmmm just my two pennies
Shine on
cass


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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arsn
arsn

How do you change this thing???
Location: Behind the couch...
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 1903
Posted:I haven't replied for some time now, but Cass... wow ... your words... I agree with you 1000%... I know theres only 100 in a % but this time theres 1000... How are you too know what something you may or may not do is to do to somebody else... this all turns into a "what if" topic... what if you didn't walk down the street... what if you didn't tie your lace at that point in time... what if you didn't talk to that one person who would be you one true love...? Learn from your mistakes, live your life, and do what you want to do... because you want too.

Bye


I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.

"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:My roommate is an alcoholic, bigtime. He has been orderd not to drink, and has been demoted due to his drinking.

He is very depressed and cant grasp why somethings are treated certain ways.

There is an unwritten rule, What happens on WestPac, stays on WestPac.

There have been cases of adultry (in the military this is a criminal offence) yet nothing has been done, yet it is a crime for him to drink. (those were his parphrased words)

He cant grasp that we are trying to prevent him from hurting himself further.

Now he is on restriction and cant leave our room unless he is going to work or chow. This is literally driving him nuts. Yesterday he managed to get something that intoxicated him. He has given several things about how he got so intoxicated that he passed out for a few hours and was pretty much blacked out for the rest of the day.

He even packed a bag and tried to run off.


He has yet to hurt anybody buy where do you draw the line between someone only hurting themselves and somebody really hurting themselves?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:quote: where do you draw the line between someone only hurting themselves and somebody really hurting themselves? You can't Ray - it's not your life to lead

You can only be there to support your mate if they decide to change the course they are on

No matter how destructive someone's behavious might seem - you can't control people

only be their guide when they seek it



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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Okay Ade, it isnt my life, but if I am truly a friend, will I allow him to continue down a self destructive path that may end up getting him killed?

I dont want to direct his path, just keep him saine. If I know he is vilating his orders, and I dont do anything about it, I am guilty of carnal knowlege. That is knowing that a crime has been commited and I dont report it.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:As much as it pains you Ray, what else are you going to do:

tie him to his bed so he can't sneak a drink?
punch him out everytime he drinks?
dob him into your officers?
hide the alcohol?
yell at him everytime he drinks?

or, walk beside him, offering support, and when he is ready, be there to hold his hand (or just be a good mate ) on his recovery journey?


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I will enforce his orders, is what I will do. I will yell and screem when needed, and I will also be there to see he gets his drunk ass back into bed and then inform whom I need to.

I will do all the above in order to help him stay sober.

That is what a friend would do. A friend doesnt let someone continue down a desrutive path.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:He even packed a bag and tried to run off.why not let him? surely this man would be better off recovering from his addiction at home rather than out in possibly a situation of grave responsibility?

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:If I was a friend of his I would be absolutely disgusted to see he does not get any psychological support for his desintoxication.
Alcoholism is a pretty serious addiction and you do not just "stop" you need help... AA or an equivalent...

I am personnaly really disgusted he gets locked in not help...

cass


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Frosty, I am sorry man but you dont understand the situation that he is in. He is a single guy living in a barracks in Japan, with no home other than his parents to go to. He is also in the military, if he leaves and doesnt come back within 30 days he is a deserter. IE maximum penalty is death. Granted nobody has been sentenced to death for some time for this charge.


Letting him leave in an intoxicated state would be the wrong thing to do. What if something happend and he fell into the binjo ditch (Japan uses above ground sewers)? He could die from the shit in there.

Letting him leave be the absolute worst thing I could do.


Cass, he has been orderd to AA meetings and yet he does not go. Short of hospitalising him there isnt much we can do in the mental health department.

I wish I could blame the Corps for his alcoholisim but I cant.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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