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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I have heard many times that people should be allwed to do whatever they want as long as they dont hurt anyone else.

Do you honestly feel this way? If so why?

To me, if your hurting yourself, then it is not okay.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)
Singed Piper (formerly Mark1)

resident bagpiper
Location: Vermont, USA
Member Since: 12th Jul 2003
Total posts: 342
Posted:i have a kinda personal stake in this conversation, so please bear with me.

my sis has been a heavy pothead/drunk for the past 4 years. I am not putting this as a statement of "NEVER, EVER TRY ANYTHING OR YOU WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE", but she definitely got in over her head. she used the excuse of "its not hurting anyone" almost daily. however, here are some hurts she never thought of. she was a minor when this started, ergo when she got caught(more than once) my parents normally ended up footing the bill. She is also legally living in my folks house, meaning that when they go to adopt(they're trying) her habits could f**k up the process. she had daily fights with my mom, which in addition to ruining their relationship, left both parties ready to lash out at me. she lost her chance at college, leaving her poor and living at home. she even did such stupid things as break her finger and leave it untreated, causing medical debts for my folks. her maturity level also seemed to lower the longer she took drugs. it caused creat angst to me to be studying comp sci or A+ cert or Calculus while she thought it was humorous to break wind and laugh hysterically, or to give wet willys, or to yell random strings of swears.

my overall point is, she did hurt others, as well as herself, by sticking to that f**king addage of "its not hurting anyone"

cya


Q:What's the difference between the Great Highland Bagpipes and the Northumbrian Pipes?
A:The Great Highland Pipes burn longer.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I would like to give a **** you to all the people out there who think you should just let someone do what they want. To everyone who thinks that just because someone isnt hurting someone else that they should be allowed to do what they want when they want.


My room-mate is on the way to the hospital now because he downed half a bottle of 26% alcohol mouthwash, and half a bottle of rubbing alcohol!

quote: As much as it pains you Ray, what else are you going to do:

tie him to his bed so he can't sneak a drink?
punch him out everytime he drinks?
dob him into your officers?
hide the alcohol?
yell at him everytime he drinks?

or, walk beside him, offering support, and when he is ready, be there to hold his hand (or just be a good mate ) on his recovery journey? The man isnt on a nice sweet journey, he is on the fast track to serious bodily harm or death.

He has a problem, and all of our attempts to help him recover have failed. Even our drastic measures have failed. I dont know what to do now, but I'll tell you one thing, it wont be to let him do stupid shit just because he isnt hurting me or anyone else!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:No

If anyone thinks that they have the right to tell anybody else what they can and cannot do with/to themselves when it has no effect or bearing on anybody else, basically because you don't like it, then doesn't that make you a facist pig? Isn't that the basis of most arguments/fights/and wars even?!


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:of course always offer advice, consolance, be there for someone who may need help, help them to learn ways to deal with their frustrations and depressions in other ways, but speaking from personal experience sometimes it is best to let them do it.
If they want to stop hurting themselves but can't just be there for them, sometimes they need to get close to the edge to appreciate the good things they have, like their friends and family.

It can be best to let go, it can be best to interfere. But you never know which is right until it's all over.

Good luck helping your friends everyone!


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
He has a problem, and all of our attempts to help him recover have failed. Even our drastic measures have failed. I dont know what to do now, but I'll tell you one thing, it wont be to let him do stupid shit just because he isnt hurting me or anyone else! I'm sorry, Ray, but who do you think you are, this man's father? If he's your friend, fine, you can try to help however you want, but he's not yours. I can't even have that kind of control over my patients, let alone my friends.

Ultimately, he has a right to hurt himself. However, the consequences of that should not be ignored. He should not be in the Service unless he is planning on making an honest effort to recover.

You say you're a Marine? Then I think it's time you did the right thing and went to a senior about it.

I've seen patients DIE because they needed a liver transplant but wouldn't stop drinking (we can't transplant a patient who is actively drinking). The choice is theirs, not ours.

You need to understand that you aren't stronger than alcohol and that this man is an adult. It's his problem and his decision.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Ray's roommate's case is probably more linked to the 'Drugs and choice' thread than this one. This guy has a problem that's out of his control. He's lost his grasp of reality - drinking mouthwash and rubbing alcohol ain't sane.

Like other have said here, you do want you want as long as it doesn't hurt others, but you've really got to be sensitive to what can hurt others. Unfortunately a classic part of addiction to drugs such as alcohol is denial of it's effects on others. So this guy can't see that he's hurting those around him, and that I've seen too much before


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Caislin
member
Location: Buckinghamshire, England
Member Since: 31st Aug 2003
Total posts: 7
Posted:Hurt is a natural thing it seems, if you love/care for someone you will get hurt by them in some way, and likewise you will hurt them. Not because you mean it, but because no one's perfect. The only thing a person can do is try to minamize (sp?) the pain they inflict on others and themselves.
Its impossible to do something that won't hurt somebody it seems. I suppose the best thing to do is not ponder too much on it, and to try and lead people in the right direction when they can be guided. And try to live the best life, *feels idealistic* sharing love, kindness, compassion etc. Its all well enough saying this, but its even more difficult to carry out.

I think in my situation, which I won't name for shyness, I found that it got better because I knew no matter what I did my parents always loved me however much hurt I put them through. I suppose I am gratefully that my family was able to offer me such unconditional love when I didn't love myself, or wasn't able to show them I loved them.

Anyway, I'm sure I missed the point at some stage.
Be good to yourselves
Caislin


The real voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes. - - - - Marcel Proust - -

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Raymond...in my opinion, a good friend does all that is reasonable to to prevent someone from going down a self-destructive path.

"all that is reasonable"

A good friend does not allow themselves to be dragged down with an ailing friend, so that at some point in the future, neither of them are any use to anyone.

Sure, there are lots of things you can do to help him out, but not EVERYTHING.

If you are lying awake at night with worry, or trying to think of ways to get him out of this on your own, then it is affecting your life and friendship more than if you backed off a little.

You can give him support, and encourage other, professional people to give him support.

It is NOT your job to help him out of this mire, it is your job to be a friend.

There are professional people out there who get paid to help people out of these mires. THEM and ONLY THEM should bear any burden for this person.


Be a friend, because you can't be a doctor.

Be a friend, and do what you can.

But to STAY a friend, you need to know when you are expecting too much of yourself as well.

(In my opnion)


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I like how Ray asks an open ended question, politely waits for an answer, then explains how you're all wrong. I think that's my favorite thing about him.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:This man is by all definition US Government Property, so am I and everyone else who signs the dotted line.

He is not just harming himself. His actions effect the moral and the readiness of this squadron. If he is not 100% we are not 100%. I dont expect you to understand this.

You're right Mike you dont own your patients, but the Government does own him.

If this guy is not helped I will bet you a million to one that he will go back to the states, get out of the Corps and get behind the wheel drunk and kill someone.

If someone has that big of a problem they resort to drinking rubbing alcohol!! Mike I cant believe you chastise me. Your a med student yet you dont seem to understand the ramifications of drinking that shit!


Mike, are you nuts, he has been orderd not to drink! This has gone to the commanding officer of the Squadron, reports have been made, it has run its course in the chain of command and all attempts to help this man clean up have failed!

He isnt going to be in the Corps much longer, pretty much as soon as we get back to ConUS he is getting adminsep. His stress and depression is extreamly high right now.


I spent all night staying up watching him to make sure he was all right when he came back from the hospital.


I have done everything that you all have suggested and more has been done by others. We arnt just going to let him continue down a destructive path. Sorry but that isnt what a friend does.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:*sleves*

quote:If he is not 100% we are not 100%. I dont expect you to understand this.oh but we do it's why we worry about pilots on drugs


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Ray...I'm not trying to make this personal, but it is really yourself who doesn't understand the situation.

If he is truly an alcoholic, then it has progressed from a mental drinking problem into a physical disease.

I have said this before in another thread you have a large presence in, but here goes again.

Ordering him to stop drinking is as much use as ordering an amputee to "get up and walk".

He is phyically ill in the body and the brain (the brain is not just willpower, it is also a physical organ, with it's own specific chemicals and ways of working).

You (meaning the Marine Corp) cannot forcibly prevent him from drinking without providing measures that I doubt are available in the grounds there in Japan.

He needs a REHAB CENTRE. As its seems difficult for you to understand now, hopefully the rubbing alcohol incident will show you this man has a problem that cannot be solved overnight.

Here a few common withdrawl symptoms for alcohlics...

* Sleeplessness

* Marked tremors

* Disorientation

* Multiple neuritis

* Delirium

* Seizures

* Hallucinations
1. Auditory hallucinations
2. Delusions
3. Patient may become homicidal or suicidal due to hallucinations.

(To name a few)

Are you beginning to understand the severity of this yet?


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Achluophobia
Magical Sock Dancer
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jul 2003
Total posts: 255
Posted:Well from what Ive learned so far from reading Ancient Wisdom, Modern World by the Dalai Lama, it seems that every ones happiness is interlaced and that what we do and say influences not just our own happiness and well being but everyones. By hurting yourself you may or may not
do or cause physical harm too someone else, you are causing metal, and emotional harm to others
even if you may think no one cares about you, when someone reads, hears or in some other way
finds out that say you committed suicide then it will affect them in some way more so if it is
someone that you were important too. So really when you hurt yourself you hurt others, there is
no not hurting other people. That is why I really hate that People should be allowed to do
whatever they want as long as they dont hurt anyone else. stuff.


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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:Thank you Charles for being, as usual, a voice of reason

I wasn't going to respond again, but since I've been quoted directly

quote:The man isnt on a nice sweet journey, he is on the fast track to serious bodily harm or death.

He has a problem, and all of our attempts to help him recover have failed. Even our drastic measures have failed. I dont know what to do now, but I'll tell you one thing, it wont be to let him do stupid shit just because he isnt hurting me or anyone else! Where did I say he was on a nice sweet journey Ray - you're doing what you accuse others of doing - putting words in my mouth.

This journey is one of the hardest an individual will walk - FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE, and I'm not reading anywhere in this thread that you understand that?

Thanks NYC for making me see ray in a different light, I need that


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Yes Charles I understand all of what you said, in fact I have been saying it the whole time. We have done everything short of tieing him to a bed, a rehab center just cant be done right now. It isnt an option, why, I dont know. It isnt my call, I have no controle over the situation.

Frosty, I have no comment for you at all. You just wasted my time and yours.


Ade, do you honestly think that I have not thought about everything you have all already said? I mean do you precieve me to be that dumb?

Do you think I am just sitting there night after night yelling at this guy? For the past month now I have done nothing outside of my room. I have not spun fire, I have not seen a movie, I have done nothing! I have sat there and baby sat a guy who is 6 years older than me. Yet even though I do all I can to help him out he just goes and does something stupid.

Everyone has tried to help him, taken him to AA meetings, done all we could.


You sit there and chastise us for our efforts, and then say just let him kill himself!

Well **** that! This Marine isnt dieing on my watch.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:Ray, I don't agree with a whole lot of what you said. But your life as a soldier is far different than anything I've experienced, so I won't begin to question how you feel right now. However, the fact that he tried to get away suggests some more serious psychological issues that I think he deserves treatment for. I understand that you want to help him, but he may have already progressed to a point where he needs inpatient care. Isn't there a millitary shrink on base that you could refer to? Alcoholics often suffer from severe depression as well as other symptoms, which may constitute some sort of medical leave...

This case is dealing with someone who took his actions to the extreme, to a self destructive point. Friends are the most important thing for him now, but realize your limitations. Perhaps the millitary is not the right place for him. Maybe he just needs some time to get his head straight. How he lives his life is ultimatly his choice, and your feelings, though well intentioned, I think may be a little totalitarian from my point of view, which assumes a much more "Do as thou wilt" tone.

None the less, my own grandfather was an alcoholic and a smoker, and I watched him deteriorate and die. It can be hard to watch, and I hope your friend pulls through his depression. Maybe he just needs someone to talk to?


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:You are very right, he does suffer with extream depression, but inpatient care isnt an option that the command is taking right now. I dont know why and I can do nothing to make them do it.


I dont know what to do and I since he came back we stayed up pretty late just talking.


I will do all I can to make sure this guy pulls out of this with his life intact.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:Ray I am not sure... why did you post this in the first place ? because you seem to disrespect everything and anythign we have been trying to think of to share our thoughts and maybe help... I am confused. ..

shine on
cass


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I dont know why I posted, but you know letting someone wallow in their own destruction is the wrong attitude. I'm sorry if you all think I'm being an ass but you know, I wont watch someone die, I'm sorry.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
I dont know why I posted, but you know letting someone wallow in their own destruction is the wrong attitude. I'm sorry if you all think I'm being an ass but you know, I wont watch someone die, I'm sorry. Dude that's what everyone's been saying the whole time - let him get out of there, let him get the care he needs in a proper rehab centre/whatever is needed

he is NOT going to get that there, you'd said as much that the command isn't allowing that option

so surely your problem should be with THEM - not with us for suggesting the very care that he needs and the only way you're going to have to sit there and watch him die is by keeping him there.

Where's the care? Where are the doctors and psychiatrics to help him? What does he have to do save wallow in his own destruction?

and why on earth are you displacing the anger at the situation onto us? everyone here has shown support and sympathy for a guy who obviously needs it


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:No you either misunderstand what I am saying or I was not clear.

I am angry with the people who have been telling me to just let him do what he wants. Let him continue drinking, let him go down a road that will surly lead to his death.


Those who have been saying that he needs to get professional help I have been agreeing with. Right now for what ever reason, the command has not pushed more than just mandatory AA meetings.

It is out of my control to do anything more than stop him from drinking while he is near me.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Flynt
Flynt

Intrepid Penguin

Member Since: 12th May 2002
Total posts: 5635
Posted:Two Words for you Ray.

Dishonourable Discharge.

This man should have been fired a while ago, if he is endangering the rest of his crew. He should be given a complete pysch evaluation, and sent home.

THAT is the extent of your duty of care.


Currently on the right side up of the world.

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:If this individual cannot get the care he needs where he is stationed, then he needs to be sent somewhere else or else drummed out of the corps, if the first option REALLY isn't possible.

At present he is just a risk to himself and everyone around him.

Raph


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I dont know why this stuff hasnt been done. Decisions like that are way above my paygrade! I do know that they want to get him out, but it would be faster to let him EAS than to kick him out.

He is already getting out with an OTH discharge a bad conduct or dishonorable discharge will ruin him for life if he ever wanted to get a job!

Due to "stop loss" he is past his EAS, but they wont let him out for another 2 months. This again is above my paygrade.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:While it may be above your paygrade to make such decisions, perhaps you could ask those above you about what could be done to help this person?

Just a thought.

Raph


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Trust me it has been suggested. Right now things are at the higest level of the squadron. They moved him out of the room yesterday and he is now under 24 hour supervision.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Page: 12

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