Forums > Social Chat > UPDATE: Trouble with Police and Fire Brigade (advice please!)

Posted: 7th Aug 2003
we fire spin on a big hill, when we can be bothered to climb it to make sue the police cant get us if they turn nasty, but as yet we have had no hassel, even when i do it on the road side they dont seem to mind!

is there any real law against fire and spinning?

oh well dude, at leats you can say you can havesomethingto talk about. congrats you have the law on your side!

did they stop and watchyou spin?

later days

Step (el-nombrie)

Posted: 7th Aug 2003
yay!



lucky you - I've been stopped from doing practice tail-poi on various occassions. Their excuse is "you could hurt someone and get charged with assault" hmmm

nice story to hear though thanks

"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

Posted: 7th Aug 2003

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mechhead:
is there any real law against fire and spinning?

---

In the U.S., I suspect they'd try to charge you with reckless endangerment.

E pluribus unum, baby.

Posted: 7th Aug 2003
the ONLY trouble i have ever had with the police and my hobbies...

was (very stupidly) when i was fire breathing in the middle of the road...

next to a petrol station..

yes...im a moron...very silly of me ...i just didnt think about it at the time.

and the police turned up and said i was a very silly person and to go to the park which was 20 seconds walk away.

other than that....no probs at all.

Posted: 7th Aug 2003
I live in London. The times this has happened I was in NYC* (I think it was Washington Sq but I can't remember for sure) - there were some drummers and a few random people sitting around so I think it was more the "people gathering and having fun in a public place" thing that bothered them.

The other time was at the Coke Boycott Launch demo in Piccadilly Circus a couple of weeks ago. We were told to stop but then the other demonstrators made a space for us by the samba band, out of the way of pedestrians and we were left to it. I think it was because it was a demo maybe crowd control is more of a concern if some of the crowd have swingy balls hehe.

Although it's silly I do empathise with the police as peaceful protests can and do get out of hand and I can see why they might get a bit paranoid. I think it's up to all of us to behave responsibily whilst playing in public spaces; I don't want anyone else to not be allowed to play just because one person accidentally hits someone with a poi/ball/stick and people judge all of us on one silly incident.

*the place not the person


Non-Https Image Link

"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 7th Aug 2003
I've got m8's who are in fire services and most of the time if I'm spinning, they think it looks cool, and from a professional point of view don't mind as long as your taking care not to be a danger to anyone else. Ultimately they can't do anything about possible danger to yourself, just those around you.

I had a really brief look into the legal side of spinning in clubs (not fire, just in general) and what happens if you hit someone.

It seems your ok as long as you have Public Liability Insurance (which is sometimes included on your home insurance, or your parents). And you've take reasonable precautions to ensure you don't hit someone. like a making sure people are kept out of the way and if you are spinning fire (although I think you the venue needs an extra permit for that in the UK?) you have extinguishers etc...

I've had people walk into the area I'm playing in and get hit (one girl walked behind me as I turned and caught both poi in the middle of her forhead! fortunately they were lightweight but still ouch! ) but I don't think any court would seriously take it as assault if it was made clear to be a performance and not an agressive act.

However I'm always a bit worried about taking my Aerotechs into clubs, just because they are so heavy, and do look like a handy kosh. Has any of you guy's ever had trouble with bouncers stopping you taking your toy's in to venue's?

Snoogins
PsyB.

Posted: 7th Aug 2003
I've had the police called on me whilst spinning (unlit) on my front lawn at 2am (i'm a student, that's like evening to me). They came & didn't seem to care when i told them it was like tai-chi, not a dangerous weapon that i light on a regular basis

Also had the fire brigade called to a houseparty twice in one night, the second time of which they came into the backgarden with a hose and put out bonfire out. We just stood round with cans of beer and cried for our lovely fire that we spent ages building in the cold. To be fair it was a valentines party so all the lights in the house were red and once we ran out of wood someone throw a traffic cone on, so from the front of the house it looked like black smoke was rising from the roof too. After that we had some weirdo standing out front with a camcorder for half an hour, there's some odd (and chances are non spinning too) people out there.........

On the issue of hating police etc I've been involved in various forms of protest (including direction action) in the past and I have no real problems with them. I'd like to live in a world where we need no military or police, but we don't. Most of the guys i've met are just trying to do their jobs, and i respect anyone who does one which opens themself up to potential abuse and harm. There are of course a few tossers, like there are in any group, but in general the times when i've seen bad policing is due to poor training/procedures which result in panicing/scared officers, not carefully planned discrimination by an evil establishment. There's so many people who hate all police based on a past ocurrance (mainly one which they just heard about second hand). I'm sure some people have real reasons to distrust the police force, but I see people who stereotype officers on the streets and discriminate against them in the same way i see people who stereotype and discrimate against any group/race/gender. Everyone is human.

Posted: 7th Aug 2003
I don't know about anywhere else but in the US in many place (especially cities) there are Open Flame laws, they are the laws that dictate that there is to be no fire larger than Oil Lamps within city limits...stuff like that. On the basis of those laws, disturbing the peace and depending on how safe you are, reckless endangerment...they can shut spinners down.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 8th Aug 2003
Nice story Magnus, not what I was expecting. I've only had similar good experiences myself. From the free party and fire point of view.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

Posted: 8th Aug 2003
Hey Magnus!
I saw the topic of your post and thought it was going to be something bad that had happened to you and your mates - thanks for a good story about our firemen and police...!
I've been twirling for four years, but I've also been a fully trained brigade fighter in the NSW Rural Fire Service for four years and I have to admit that the two of them do occasionally conflict against each other...! hehe
When I do shifts at the Fire Brigade, we often get calls out to 'check up' on people fire twirling, having parties and the like and I'm always a little nervous heading out there cause I hate them to think that I'm trying to bust up the fun... However, I've also been on the receiving end when at a fire gathering and my brigade friends have been called - they always have a good little joke about me on my next shift, saying that I keep them employed....ggrr...hehe
So, thanks for the boost that we're not all bad guys...! hehe
Rach

We all take different paths in life, but no matter which path we take, we take a little of each other everywhere...

Posted: 8th Aug 2003
Hey peeps,
Just had a run in with the police last night due to fire spinning. I had freindly ones too, with the heat wave there is a fire ban over here at the moment, they said we had to stop and just wait until the weather is a little safer, but they were really freindly about it, They that it was ok to do, but just not a the moment.
My cop fire experience.
Mot.

Come forth and thou shalt win enternal happiness. but he came fifth so he won an electric toatser.

Posted: 28th Aug 2003
I am livid, I am on the warpath.

Two weeks later (last night), FOUR police turn up, and politely tell us to put out the fire and go home.

We're not sure if it's the same person who complained last time or not, and it was different police. We're also not sure if the complaint was about the noise or the fire, or just that it was young people having fun.

We went round the corner to a different field, and continued our gathering without the fire. Interestingly this raised the noise levels - everyone was agitated.

I personally know the Town Mayoress, a couple of Town Councillors, the reporter for the local paper, and the Youth Development Coordinator, and today I will be making some phone calls.

We reckon we probably were breaking a few laws - it's difficult not to in this day and age. A gathering of more than 5 people, for a start. Not sure on the legality of the fire, but the Fire Brigade had previously turned up and told us they didn't have a problem. We also don't know who owns the land, though it is open to the public.

There was also a certain amount of underage drinking and some discrete drug-taking, but that to me is incidental, no-one was rowdy or behaving recklessly.

Dammit... last night a group (of 30, our largest yet) of young people were stopped from spending their time in a positive way, that to my knowledge wasn't hurting anyone.

I'm sure you folks will have plenty of advice, and I'd very much like to hear it.

Magnus

Magnus... pay it forward

Posted: 15th Sep 2003
My friends and I play every sunday night in a local park, and have only been talked to by a police officer once. We had asked a fireman what he thought about it; explained to him that it's really not a lot different than smoking in that it's just a small (hehehe) controled flame, attached to our person at all times. He told us that as long as we weren't setting other people on fire, we should be ok. Anyway, back to the police officer... We were far from the road that night, deep in the field. The guy sat and watched us for about 10 minutes, then drove his car across the field, so my friend Geoff and i walked out to meet him just to take some of the worry off of the people who were there to watch us. The officer asked us what was going on, and we explained... The next thing was great. He said, and I'm not kidding about this, "Are you guys allowed to do this?" we told him what the fireman had told us and offered a demonstration, and let him know that we were allowing him the final say without an argument, and he said, "No thanks, I'll just watch from the road. He watched while geoff spun a set and then drove off. That was my first police experience, and I'm happy with it.

Posted: 15th Sep 2003
I got stopped once, the copper leaned out of his car and said "did you know its illeagal to light a fire within 50m of a public highway?"

errrm, no?

this is a uk rule, just for you guys to bear in mind

T

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

Posted: 16th Sep 2003
i have got licenses to busk in the UK and i have liability insurance so i have had to cheak out the law a bit.
as far as i know there are no laws stopping busking of fire but the council for an area can have there own rules. also the highway authority and the enviroment agency can be problematic but that is determined more by the people and not the law.
as for private parties, if it is done on a public park, if there are no signs saying you cannot spin then the only thing they can get you for is the noise. also if you have an open fire especially in london because of law laid down after the great fire of London. the same is true in the US where the fire law about the sive of flame was created to stop mob loinchings and the like. in this way brands of fire would be against the law and police could stop riots and mobs for that reason.
it rewally depends on the person, they see you as a risk and thanks to are percieved personar we are all drugedc out hippies and possibly dangerous, of course only about half of us are drugout hipies the rest of you are really very conservative types who like to spin.
also don't blame the police as they have been called out by someone how just dos't understand what we do, probably a woman in her 50+ how twitches her curtains. explain to the police and just say that you will kill music or what ever for the peole around but that spinning is not dangerous.
if you want liability insurance its about £100 pounds for world wide insurance up to 2 million pounds and that will cover anything from juggling stilt walking to fire spinning and breathing.

What you don't know won't hurt you? well i intend to get to know as much as possible so that i can make sure no one else has to so they carn't get hurt.

Posted: 16th Sep 2003
geewillikers, is EVERYBODY here from the UK? i live in northern california....


ehh....the guy next to me (who frequently reads over my shoulder) told me to tell you that he hates you all. (he has very small genetailia, so hes a bit disgruntled. pity him)
hes actually oodles of fun, and all kinds of nice, but he says random stuff like that sometimes.
i still love you all.

Posted: 16th Sep 2003

quote:

---

The next thing was great. He said and i'm not kidding about this "Are you guys allowed to do this?"

---

Once when me and a mate were waiting for someone at folk on the green (its like a mini folk fest in a small town).
This police man came over and said, and i quote
"Your not doing anything suspicious are you?"

It was hard not to laugh, i mean what were we meant to say?
"yes, officer, we just robbed a bank and we are just about to go and set fire to a port-a-loo"

you just lost the game!!!!!! !!!!!

knowledge is power, power corupts, study hard, become evil.

Posted: 16th Sep 2003
I think overdose needs to learn how to respect others in the forums. The cops around where i live are strict on EVERYTHING. If you are walking in a group of 5 or more your are considered suspicious and told to disperese and if not they'll arrest you. It reminds me of what i read about the nazis and the gestapo in school. No exaggeration either, esspecially in the suburbs. In the cities and the rural areas its not that bad, but the younger the cop is ussually the more of a dick he is. I must say ive been to the UK once, your police are the freindliest ive ever seen in my life.

Power percieved is power achieved.

Posted: 17th Sep 2003
I'm just waiting for some kind of problem from the cops. I often spin fire outside my house in the street, and I have been getting bigger and bigger wicks (and therefore flames) as time goes on. They've just started building on what used to be a nice big open space, so I don't even get a decent audience anymore. The police have seen it a couple of times, but not with fire. I have been known to do it in the local parks, but to be honest, I don't feel nearly as safe there as I do outside my own house (and there was once a drunk guy there who tried to be an arsehole), the parks just have kids that think they're hard.

Of course, everything is now criminal, pretty much, so you lose whatever you do.

Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance

Posted: 17th Sep 2003
my first encounter with the police was when i was performing for a few friends in the local Homebase car park at about 10pm on a sunday night. I had the stereo in my car on and i was twirling happily away for almost an hour.

Then I heard the sirens and all of a sudden two cop cars came roaring round the roundabout into the car park. They were going at leatst 50 mph towards me and then screached on the brakes and stopped about 2 meters in front of me.

I continued twirling and they all got out and two of them pointed their rifels at me (I live in N. Ireland - PSNI (police Service of Northern Ireland) all carry BIG Guns)

One of the offiers insstructed me to put out the fire, so i pulled out my fire blanket and put out the poi.

They asked me what I was doing and I explained the art of Poi. They asked me was it illegal what I was doiung and i said no. you dont need a licence or permit and I was more than 50m away from a public highway (which i just read on HoP the day b4 HAHAHA)

They then called on their radio and within seconds another 3 jeep loads of police arrived with their blues and twos on (lights and sirens)

At this stage I though oh feck, what am i going to do.

They then said ok we have got you a little audience - show us what you can do, so I did a full poi show and some fire breathing as well as a little bit of playing with the audience. I brought one of the police onto my stage and walked towards him swinging my poi. I walked up to him so his nose was almost touching mine. He thought it was great and all the other police were chearing him on! After that the gave me a round of applause and left.

Another time i was performing in our main pedestrian zone in the city and the police stopped, asked me what i was doing and then left as they seen i had all my fire equipment. (2 fire extinsurers, fire blanket, bucket of sand to pour over the excess fuel which i shake off and a bucket of water). The same day the fire birgade called up to the square. I had my back to the road and they stopped on the road. One fireman got out of the fire engine witha fire extinsurer and walked towards me. My audience started to laugh and as i turned round he pretended to spray me hahaha. It looked like it was part of the show hahaha QUALITY!!!

Be Good, and if you DONT be Good, Buy a Pram!

Posted: 17th Sep 2003
That's so wicked BigDav, if I were in your shoes i probably would have started to cry and promptly fainted!
A authority figure has only ever spoken to me once while I was spinning fire and it wasn't bad at all. I was spinning on the waterfront in front of the tall glass walls of the Museum of the Atlantic which Flip and I thought made a pretty spiffy backdrop, however a security guard came over and told us we were a little too close to the museum and the slightest mistake would have a more than slight consequence (eg. crispy museum) so we just asked her if we could move obout 20 meters to the right and she had no problem at all with that. So I guess our men/women in uniform have no beef about spinning! Youpie!

P*L*U*R

Posted: 17th Sep 2003
Nice Police people rock, and so do nice firemen !!!!!

It's all good

Posted: 18th Sep 2003
I never knew there were places on this planet where groups of 5 or more are told to disperse, and if they don't, they are arrested. That to me is completely insane, and totally alien.

My advice - pack your bags and come down to Melbourne in Australia. We have a regular, every Wednesday night twirl at one of the parks within a 5 minute drive from the center of the city. Police cars drive past on their way to catch real criminals.

I think in summer there were a few complaints about noise (drums etc) but everyone just moved deeper into the park and everyone was happy.

my 2 cents

I do poi nearly every day. But it's not like I'm addicted or anything. I mean, sure, I am always conscious of exactly where my poi are at all times, but I'm not obsessed. um.. Anyone have the number for Poi-ers Anon?

Posted: 18th Sep 2003
Our local copper likes to have a go spinning occasionally. No trouble there.

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

Posted: 18th Sep 2003
You all are quite lucky! You know, I live in Moscow, Russia, and here the police officers are a bit different. They more are like uneducated bullies with guns, so the trouble is often.
Once I was taken to the police station for spinning beaming poi in front of the main building of moscow state univercity.
Two cops came buy and just took me away, putting those metal thingies on my hands!!!! I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE FIRE ON!!!!
The firedudes are still quite nice, 'cause every time they come they just tell me to be careful, and not to burn myself...

when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

Posted: 25th Sep 2003
ok well on saturday there is big get to gether of like minded twirlers, i planned it for about 12, there could be up to 60
its all gone a bit mad.
ive read the first post and gone YAY!
then it goes downhill
if we dontlight up till 10:30 ish then the feds should be too busy with towny twats in town being drunk and trying to hurt each other, we are peaceful and organised.
wish me lots of luck im gonna need it.

my original signature was tooo long.
this one is shorter

Posted: 25th Sep 2003
Just make sure that you don't have the Terrorism Act used on you.

Policeman: *mutter* Terrorism *mutter*
Suddenly he can do all sorts of things that he couldn't do before (Terrorism Act, 2000). Utterly ridiculous. Also it's potentially illegal to be in a gathering of more than three people (if they decide that it's an illegal gathering and tell you to disperse) (Criminal Justice Act, 1988).

Did I mention that there are times that I hate this country? Where else is there to move to? (over in Melbourne, you have lovely Little Johnny Howard, not sure that's any better).

So good luck with the spinning, and don't let the thought of the cops intimidate you.

Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance

Posted: 6th Oct 2003
OK, sorry to follow up to myself, but I'm going to resurrect this thread by saying that just now, I was spinning out the front of my flat - a very quiet street, with a building site next to it. I've been spinning there many nights for the better part of, oh, 5 months. So, I decide that I need some exercise, and rather than take fire, I take out my sock poi.

It's not too bad a night, and probably one of the last before it starts to rain all the time (yeah, we've been saying that for ages, but whatever). While spinning, I can hear the rather too close (less than 300m) bangs of fireworks which are almost certainly being set off by 15 year old kids (this is East London, that kind of thing is to be expected). So, I'm practicing my spinning. It's not like I've never spun there before, and worse, it's not like I've been subtle about spinning fire there. Police have seen me spin there before, too.

Anyway, tonight, I'm spinning and an area car goes up the road at the end. I think no more of it. Then it comes back and I'm in the headlights. I keep spinning. The window slides down and the female cop in the passenger seat asks me what I'm doing. I tell her "poi, it's sort of like juggling". By this time it's pretty obvious (as if it wasn't with airwraps and hyperloops and stuff) that these things are flexible, and in fact that they're made out of a pair of socks. It must also be fairly obvious that I've been doing some kind of performance art with them. They say "do you often do this here", "yup, I've been doing it out here for about 4-5 months now, why, is there a problem doing it here?", "do you think it's really the most sensible place", "well, it's not like many cars come down here, and the building site doesn't have a lot of traffic.", "don't you think you could do it somewhere more secluded?", "where precisely do you have in mind?". "The park?". I'll remind my readers at this point that I live in East London. An unlit Mile End park, or even Victoria Park doesn't really have the best reputation, so I reply with: "while I'm happy to do this with fire in the park, I don't really feel safe enough doing it with socks, I'm afraid" (no, I don't trust the level of policing around where I live in that situation). (incredulous)"You do this with fire?", "yes, I have all the relevant public liability insurance", "I think you better stop now, we had a call from a resident who didn't know what you were doing" (I find this hard to believe, and I suspect it was just an excuse, see above for reasons). "oh?" "yes, it looked like they might have been solid and dangerous, it looked like that to us, too, do you think you could stop for the night?"

It's not like the crime rate in my area is so low that they have to pick on people spinning socks is it? NOT IN MY EXPERIENCE ANYWAY. Argh!

I don't so much mind the being asked to stop, but it's the general closed-mindedness. It's not like I ask the police not to train with firearms because they might possibly hurt others (no, I'm not going to start a Gun Control debate), after all it's not like it's never happened. (the guy carrying a coffee table leg who was shot dead, because it might have been a shotgun, not so far from here). I also would much prefer it if they hadn't lied about "a resident calling". Maybe they weren't, but the chances are very slim, and I know, from bitter experience, how useless the police are at keeping the crime rate down. You're lucky if they catch anyone, post crime, that's if they even bother to investigate it, and don't just file it (you need to have a crime reference to be able to claim insurance).

Grrrr.... How do people get better if not with practice. I will be very angry if all my hard work over the last 5 months has been for nothing.

Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance

Posted: 7th Oct 2003
eeep that all sounds really really tragic The best story I have is when a bunch of us meet up in a open park near the beach, and light up. its pretty popular area, but after like 9pm, the only people about are at the clubs up the road. anyway cops walk past, stand there for a while watching. one of the guys walks up and offers them a turn with his Poi they just go "oh.. nah I couldn't do that" and then they walk off

tho apparently after i went, the cops came back and told them to stop playing the drums and singing they were doing at like 3am.

worst story ive had, i was at a concert out in Granville youth centre (shush, 2 great bands was playing!) and there was this group of ppl firespinning afterwards. and they were on the other side of this wirefenced tennis court area. I asked if i could have a go, and they said they had to get all sorts of Council approvals and sign waivers n stuff to perform for us. they even had to have meetings with the council and show what they were doing! that was bad enough for me to imagine.. being abused by cops for meeting in a group of 5 seems waaay overboard

feel sorry for you guys...

You love the middle ages, Don't you?Sir, Yes Sir!!The concept of a Geocentric universe gets you sexually excited, Doesn't it?Sir, Yes Sir!!You want to make 16th century mathematician Johannes Kepler your bitch, Don't you?Sir, Yes Sir!!

Posted: 7th Oct 2003
yeah i got moved on in Gloucester however i was pretty young and stupid then, doing fire devil stick on a busy street outside hmv with no safety equipment. I know, like I said, young and stupid.

But my worst experience was at Reading Festival. Not the real 5-0's but the jumped-up, crazed private security people. They appeared out of nowhere, screaming at us (me on devil sticks, a girl on staff and a couple of guys on poi) to put everything out. When we tried to discuss the matter they forcibly removed our equipment, stamped on my devil stick to put it out, despite having a perfectly good fire blanket nearby, saying they were 'confiscating it'. Could I get it back? Yes, the next morning, although I had to find this out from some other security bloke as those who stole our stuff zoomed of in their fr!ggin quad bike. Next morning, yeah you can have it back if you wait for the security guard who took it'. How long will that be? I ask patiently. 6 hours. Hmmm.

The thing was, we had walked around the festival site (anyone who's been will know this is a massive trek!) to find an empty safe place with room for a few fire artists. We were miles from tents in a sparsely populated part of a car park area.

Their attitude was appalling and I'm now devilstick-less!