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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:While cutting chicken for a stir fry a couple of nights ago, I had to stop myself being sick! Although I've been raised on meat and enjoyed the taste, I've never liked the idea of eating it.

So I asked myself 'why do I put myself through this?'. And that night, I spontaneously became a vegetarian. I didn't see it coming but I see it more as something I've gained rather than something I've lost, and I've even had support from the 'carnivores' I thought would try to change my mind.

Would love to hear from all you veggies out there!


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by falloutboy:
The way i see it, we basically need to consume energy to survive, and our greatest source of energy is the sun - but we as a species are unable to absorb and convert this energy directly into the form we need. Plants on the other hand can do exactly that - convert sunlight into glucose - how convenient! So we need to consume plants to survive - but hey look, here's a whole bunch of other animals with the same idea - why don't we let them forrege around eating the plants, then we'll eat them - it'll save us time and effort! So we can do that.. and we have been.. and therefore that's how we've evolved (K9 teeth etc.) It's not necessarily that we were 'designed' to eat meat.

I liked the way you put this but it is not fully sound. We consume things because our body needs specific elements to keep itself running properly.
Iron, for example. The highest food source available for iron is red meat. For people like me with pretty bad anemia, who can not take the meds because of illness, this is the way to get it. I don't usually like red meat however, when I crave it, I know that my blood levels are low. If I ignore this craving, I get a migraine the next day.
The reason Vegetarians are supposed to take supplements everyday is because they are not consuming all of the necessary vitamins in their diet that their body requires. It is the same for those who are on a low Cabr diet, which means they are mostly carnivorous. Which is fine, and again, it is a choice but the sun=energy equation is a miniscule part of it. The natural sugars we get from plants is part of what converts into energy. So do fats from animals, they are just not as instantaneous. Vitamin D3 and K are those processed by our skin and the sun, which tend to not be readily found in most vegetables, btw.

Talk to someone on the Atkins or Carb addicts diet and they will say that they experience the exact same feelings as anyone who has gone Vegetarian. A feeling of more energy, more alertness, some weight loss and an overall feeling of better health.

Either way, it is personal choice, and I can respect that.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:quote:The reason Vegetarians are supposed to take supplements everyday is because they are not consuming all of the necessary vitamins in their diet that their body requiresnot true, it is possible to get all required from a balenced vegan diet. For sake of convience (because most people don't tend to eat balenced diets) many vegan products such as soy margerine and soy milk are fortified with artificially derived vitamin D, B12 etc. But then veganism is a serious undertaking and to stay healthy you do have to take it seriously, at least when you start to ensure that you are eating well. I don't even think about it on a daily basis, but if i analyse what i ate yesterday I did get everything i needed vitamin/mineral/protein wise. About a year ago I was feeling very lathargic all the time and went to a doctor to see if i had glandular fever. That test came back negetive so i requested to see a nutrianalist to see if my diet was responsible. The doctor (who incidently is vegetarian too) told me he didn't think so, but referred me anyway. I half expected to nutrianalist to tell me i was damaging my health and to give up veganism when i told her what i ate. But instead she was very encouraging and said my diet was far far better than the average person my age and the tiredness was not related. The tiredness thing sorted itself out a few months later (and in hindsight it probably had something to do with staying out really late every night ).

On the other hand most people who turn vegetarian don't bother checking, just assume they are getting a good diet because they eat more vegetables. I knew a guy who was vegetarian for a year and had to convert back on health grounds. When he came over my house he's never even heard of tofu or seiten, he just ate cheese in every meal (pizza, cheese on toast, omelette etc). I was quite shocked, but it does explain why he became very skinny and ill. In such cases vitamin suppliments are essential, along with a good slapping


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I have a certification in Nutrition and Herbalism, Flid, which is why I said that. You are most definately in the minority.
The only thing I do not encourage people to be absolute in is carnivore. That is just dangerous on so many levels.
However, there are in fact many things that vegetarians do tend to not get enough of in a diet, which is why soy products, milk products, juices and such are coming to have more and more vitamins/minerals/etc added. In a standard diet, non-supplimented, a person does not get all their dietary needs and in fact many of the additives/perservatives will actually strip nutrients from your body. It is why things labelled as having Olestra in them should be avoided at all costs (it stips the body from vitamin K). I, for one, am happy to see people purchasing things with added vitamins...however also encourage people to research how much of each you require. Another problem that many people have encountered is too much, or literally overdosing, on vitamins/minerals. Actually, many people do this most commonly on calcium and vitamin c.

Supplimentally, vitamins should be in liquid form for best absorbtion and can be added to beverages or sprinkled over a meal (they taste bad alone or in water, no matter what the label says!). Those hard packed vitamins are actually quite useless and do not fully break down in the body. If liquid is too expensive or hard to find, then gel caps are the next best step.

And for those looking into vegetarianism, or new to it, really read up on it, and explore the health sides of it. And just for reference, Quinoa is a seed sold as a grain, can be used like rice, pasta, grits, oatmeal for most dishes is a complete and non-fatty protein. A must for a vegetarian/vegan diet. And, in addition to being tasty it is also funny looking (reminds me of a condom before you take it out of the packet!)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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soldari


soldari

busy-tofu!
Location: montreal: bagel capital

Total posts: 133
Posted:Though I am a vegetarian, I have to agree with Pele there. There are too many vegetarians that don't bother to eat all that their bodies need. Though some vegetables (like spinash) contain iron, they don't have the proper combinations for us to absorb it into our blood system by eating spinash alone.

I don't know how I've managed to keep my iron levels so high after 7 years of being a vegetarian, one thing I do recommend (for all you vegetarians out there!) is a yearly blood test to make sure your body is getting everything it needs to function well.

I became a spontaneous vegetarian when I decided I wouldn't 'kill' for the taste of meat in my plate, as there are so many other alternatives, that, combined properly (do your homework!), can replace an meat in a diet. 7 years later, the smell of meat still makes my stomach turn.

On the anecdote side, I've been asked several times: "If you were on desert island with a chiken, would you eat it?" My first answer was always, well how often does it lay eggs?
Okay, you don't get it... If you were on a desret island with a cow, would you eat it? Again, same answer, but with milk. Say it was a rooster: yes, I would eat it before I starved to death. For me, being vegetarian is expressing your choice not to eat meat, when you have the choice...

Oh, and does anyone know why excessively carnivore people feel so threatened by vegetarians?

/soldari


there is no better way to say I love you than with the gift of a spatula!

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by soldari:
Oh, and does anyone know why excessively carnivore people feel so threatened by vegetarians?

First off I love the anecdotes. Those were good.

Next...I know old school people, like my dad, use the stupid excuse that it is "unamerican to not eat meat and potatoes"....ummm...I don't remember that part being in the Declaration of Independence, you know one that says what you HAVE to eat.

I think it is fear of change, or that you are going to change them. So many people have that whole multi-food groups = healthy in their heads from the time they are kids. They use it to validate what they eat. It's hard to work with people who have had on notion all their lives to get them to accept (not change) other options exsist. It seems foreign and therefore "un-natural".
Other people I think look at vegetarians as they do bible beaters, that if they give them a moment of time that they will try to "convert" you.
It's all really funny when you think on it really.

As for me? I am not vegetarian as I stated before, but not far away from it and I get my kicks out of putting stuff in food that my friends say they hate, yet they are devouring it. For example, the dislike of eggplant is pretty wide spread amongst country folk. Grind it up, slap it in lasagna where the beef should be with spices and cheese and they don't know the difference. Oh, was that a fun meal to sit in on!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Boneyard


member
Location: USA

Total posts: 22
Posted:A few points to consider:

10-1 ratio: This is a general rule, and I wouldn't doubt there are animals for whom this holds true. In reality though, different animals have different metabolisms, which will change this number. I think proselytizing vegans use this much the same way that gun control proponents or tax dodgers use the numbers; picking out the worse case scenario, then pushing it as the norm. The world is not black and white.

Also consider this; if you eat grass fed beef (instead of grain fed), you are actually utilizing calories you couldn't have used before. Yes, I can take the grain and feed people instead of cows, but I can't do the same with grass. The cow is a natural way to convert otherwise unavailable calories for human consumption. Could we do this chemically? Probably, but the energy involved would be about the same as that of a cow.

As for health, we are omnivores. If you look at diets through out the world, you will see that people have sustained themselves on many varieties of diets. Some more vegan, and some more carne, but mostly made up of what was locally available. Now that we have the luxury of shipping fresh fruits and vegetable from climates where they can grow all year, vegetarians are able to sustain their diet even in times where hunting would've been the only means available for food in the past.

The environmental impact: Yes, we are causing a large amount of harm to the environment with our practices. It used to be that all food was grown on farms of various sizes, which although they did not maintain the local flora/fauna, were still diverse enough to keep the soil and such from eroding (i.e.. growing wheat and corn, along with squash, an orchard, a hundred head of cattle, some chickens, etc.). Now all farming has been industrialized, and you can drive for miles and see nothing but one crop. This basically removes the "cycle" from the environment, and we have to work harder and put more energy into growing that field of corn than we once did. SO even a vegan diet these days is not nearly efficient as an omnivorous diet used to be.

Finally, the ethics. This is a tough one because science has a hard time proving one set of ethics is more "valid" than another. My opinion (which is all I can offer here) is that life feeds on life. I eat plants and animals, and eventually I will die and be placed back into the cycle. Unless they pump me full of chemicals and put me in a concrete slab, which is not something I want.

I basically follow the Law of the Jungle, from The Jungle Book (the movie with Jason Lee (I know, it's kinda hokey)). It is simple: you kill only to eat, or to keep from being eaten. If I kill a cow to eat it and make shoes from it's skin, that is not cruel, that is nature. If I kill a mink and make a coat from it without eating the meat (or at least feeding it to my dogs), then I am becoming cruel. Sticking a firecracker up a frogs butt is just wrong, and shows a severe lack of compassion (which I find worrisome in other people).

I have extended this somewhat to include plants as well. I won't chop down a tree or tear apart a bush just because, and I try to instill this into my nieces and nephews. It's not always easy, but I try anyway.

Final thought: I think our biggest problem with food today is over-population. I don't care what your religous/philisophical beliefs are, when you contribute to the (exponential) expansion of the human species, you contribute to the destruction of the globe. Starvation, disease, global warming, deforestation, all are caused because people need more food or land to grow food. People need to limit the number of offspring, and bring the world population down to a sustainable level where we can all enjoy the fruits of the earth. I don't think people will voluntarily do this (which is another topic in itself), but it's what I advocate.

J

PS I think Vegans do get preachy and try to convert you. Just like gun controllers and AA members. Just let me eat my steak, sip my whisky, and shoot stuff in piece!


A witty saying proves nothing.- Voltaire (1694-1778)

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Boneyard


member
Location: USA

Total posts: 22
Posted:Oh yeah, I am all for raising animals in a more natural environment ("free range" if you will). I think this is more ethical and a healtheir alternative to what we're doing now. Once again, this would require reducing the human population to a point where we could raise the animals without leveling the earth to create pasture and farmland.

How can I say eating free range animals is more ethical? Well, to quote Churchil, "When you have to kill a man, it costs you nothing to be polite."

J


A witty saying proves nothing.- Voltaire (1694-1778)

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cosmic_circus


member
Location: England

Total posts: 10
Posted:well hmmm being a new un i will give my opinion being a veggie for 10 years would make me preetty experiencd and i know that you get protein and calcum and every other preached good vitamin the west can sell. Being veggie is great keep going all of you out there!
Try and live a life without harm, tis the best way.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Boneyard:

Finally, the ethics. This is a tough one because science has a hard time proving one set of ethics is more "valid" than another. My opinion (which is all I can offer here) is that life feeds on life. I eat plants and animals, and eventually I will die and be placed back into the cycle. Unless they pump me full of chemicals and put me in a concrete slab, which is not something I want.

I basically follow the Law of the Jungle, from The Jungle Book (the movie with Jason Lee (I know, it's kinda hokey)). It is simple: you kill only to eat, or to keep from being eaten. If I kill a cow to eat it and make shoes from it's skin, that is not cruel, that is nature. If I kill a mink and make a coat from it without eating the meat (or at least feeding it to my dogs), then I am becoming cruel. Sticking a firecracker up a frogs butt is just wrong, and shows a severe lack of compassion (which I find worrisome in other people).
An analogy-

A race of beings with a consciousness as far beyond ours as ours is beyond animals, descends upon the Earth and starts to farm humans.

They consider themselves ethical because they slaughter us humanely and because it is all part of the food chain and therefore of nature.

Although they acknowledge that humans do possess a rudimentary form of consciousness and can, to some extent, feel distress, it is of little consequence to them.

imagine your families next in the line for slaughter- what would you want to say to the slaughterers.

Unfortunatly, your words to them will make no more sense than the screams and squeals of pigs going to slaughter, do to us.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I have a question..How many people here have been to a farm on slaughtering day? Or are you all talking from experience watching films and reading books? Just curious.
I am also curious as to the mindset of people who picket hunting season each year, because it is "cruel". My father can drop a deer on one shot, after which we eat the meat, the butcher sells the hide to people who use it (we have a Native American Reservation not far away) and he uses the bones.
Now, how is this cruel when faced with an overrun population of deer in the winter starving to death? Of which we had an epidemic a few years back so hunters were allowed extra tags. There is much talk of farm grown meats, but what of overrun fishing or hunting? (and Yes there are irresponsible hunters out there but from my growing up in a "great white hunter's" household, it is the exception, not the rule) Is that cruel as well? Again, curious.
In my eyes there is no black and white, just personal choice...however, the only real reason I tend to accept readily from vegetarians is like the many given here, "it just happened" (love lightnings story! ), or because "I feel better".

That was exquisitely said Boneyard. I really enjoyed reading it. I used to work for the Soil and Water Conservation District/Department of Environmental Conservation in New York State some years ago. I had many jobs there to make sure that local farms adhered to the many federal guidelines in order to maintain their grants. One of these practices was rotational strip cropping. What this is, is along the lines of what you are talking about with the HUGE fields depleting soil minerals, so even our veggies are not as fortified as they should be. For sake of arguement we are going to use corn, sweet pea and alfalfa. All of which can be cash crops for feeding a dairy farm. On a rotation cycle the field was allowed only a few years of corn growth before it had to be switched to sweet pea for two years and alfalfa for one. This helped to not only maintain the soil richness but it's integrity as well. Also on this plan was the actual lay of the ground. Not only did they have to plant specific crops but they had to also plant them a specific way to reduce erosion. We have a fair share of silty loam around here, which tends to wash away easily. I used to create these plans, measure the slope of the land, test water, all sorts of stuff for the saving of fields, waterways and such. Just thought that knowing there are govt procedures addressing this might be of interest to you.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Pele, i totally agree with your post, i was just trying to point out that supplements arn't needed if you do have a well balanced vegan diet and really research the issue before you undertake conversion. Although i don't look to closely at what i'm eating these days nutrician wise, I did like a hawk for the first year or so, now i just do it without thinking about it.

I'm going to make a totally sweeping statement now to do with nutrician and vegetarianism which I have no study with which to back up, it is purely an observation. In general, because veganism is a more serious undertaking and only really something you do if you truely beleive in it, there's about as many male vegans as there are female. With vegetarianism, because it is so widely accepted in this country now, a significant of people become vegetarian for reasons other than animal rights or health, the main one being teenage girls using it as an eating disorder (ie as an excuse to eat less - 'i just have the sauce with some rice'). Out of the people I knew at my college, about 1 in 20 boys were vegetarian and 1 in 4 girls vegetarian. In such cases nutrician isn't really a top priority and people don't substitute what they would get out of meat with natural alternatives. But as I say, just an observation, you don't hafta slap me or call me a sexist.

quote:PS I think Vegans do get preachy and try to convert you. Just like gun controllers and AA members. Just let me eat my steak, sip my whisky, and shoot stuff in piece!How many vegans serious vegans have you actually met? I don't try to convert people, I currently know no other vegans and very few vegetarians. My best friends eat meat and one works in burger king. I don't agree, but I don't lecture. There's a lot of people in the world to convert, so i'd rather work on strangers than the small percentage that I have to live with. I've also had a very large amount of meat eaters try to convert me back, generally when i'm out enjoying myself and when i categorically say that i'm willing to sit down with them during the daytime and have an intellectual debate with them, but they take no notice and continue to go on at me. I'm not going to stereotype meat eaters based on a few that i've met, and i'd really like to know how you surveyed vegans to conclude that they are all 'preachy'.

There is however a difference between preaching and intervention in extreme cases. I don't tell people about what they are eating (unless they are talking rubbish infront of me), but I am willing to step in (using legal methods and tactics only) against practices which I both know a lot about and beleive to be fundamentally wrong, such as bloodsports. I too grew up in the countryside, in a small hamlet with a farm on one side and dense woodland on the other (which kind of smashes the all anti-hunt people live in the city stereotype). In the couple of years before i moved off to university I was actively involved in hunt (fox and mink) saboteuring. I've never been arrested or close to being, infact the local hunt was quite annoyed that the anti hunt lobby in the area had a better working relationship with the police than they did. I distinctly remember farmers bringing the UK to a standstill a few years ago when they blocked petrol lorries (illegally i might add) from reaching petrol stations in protest. The right to nonviolent, peaceful, lawful protest is a fundamental human right that everyone should have the right to, whatever side of an argument. If hunters feel that i'm preaching to them when they are about to tear an animal to pieces for some sick pervertion then I do appologise.

Finally, quotes are generally made completely out of context, just made up, translated badely or changed around, so i take little notice of them. But to quote another leader The greatness of a nation and its moral awareness can be judged by the way its animals are treated - Ghandi


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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Pele, you snuck a post in when i was writting mine, my previous commented on your earlier post

quote:I am also curious as to the mindset of people who picket hunting season each year, because it is "cruel".I lived in remotish countryside for 9 years and on the edge of a town with lots of farms around for 6 years. I've attended in person tens of hunts and run on foot all day with the lead hunters. I've also seen first hand how the animals are killed. Perhaps I should tell you that your experience of hunting, ie shooting, is not the same as the UK style of fox hunting. Fox hunting here is done on horseback with (usually badely trained) dogs. Generally at a hunt there are a couple of hunters (red coats) then 20 to 30 or so other riders who pay a subscription of several thousand a year to ride with the pack. Then following them are lots of wannabe farmers with landrovers and wax jackets who follow the hunt on foot/car. The dogs are trained to make a chase last as long as possible so the followers get a good ride. Foxes are sometimes bred to be hunted so a kill can be ensured when the hunt has celebrety guests (ie royal members). I've never seen a fox killed by the mythical 'quick nip on the back of the neck', usually they are disembowled whilst still alive. The whole thing is very much a social event.

Pest control is a dodgy area, but if foxes are pests and need to be culled then i have no problems with a professionally trained marksman with a rifle who can kill in a single shot. This form of 'hunting' is not the same as bloodsports in the UK.


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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I have *NEVER* been a supporter of sport hunting...at all of any kind. I hate safari hunt for big game, where a lian or bear is nothing more than an animal to stuff. I despise the idea of the fox hunts, and know how these are presented. I can't stand poacher who hunt without licensure at all. I don't even support archery unless the person is a dead shot and can kill with one arrow (my brother in law is amazing at this).
However, to me, those are not hunting. True hunting is one that was once survival and is still treated as such. My father is one of the area marksman who hunt for control. When he kills woodchucks, the animal is then given as carrion for feed. This cuts back on food costs for the refuge and it helps the overabundance of woodchucks that are taking out crops.
A few years back there was an epidemic of coyote here. They were actually attacking farm hands and cows. My dad's hunting group was called in by the game warden, where he had to hand over the pelts to keep a count. My understanding is the pelts went to the local Native Americans.

There is a HUGE difference in my eyes between sport hunting, which is poaching and very wrong in my eyes, and *real* hunting.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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DaiTenshi


member
Location: Stillwater, OK

Total posts: 104
Posted:I'm legally blind, bows and the average gun would be a no go for me on hunting.

I once met a man that claimed to drop a deer with a pair of Bowie Knives. Apparently, he waited in a tree for a deer to come by under him, then pounced and stabed into either side of the deer's neck.

I wish I could remember which state has done it, but somewhere down south one can now get a liscense for spear hunting. From what I've heard only a handful got a liscense and only one man managed to tag a deer.

That would be a hunt I could live with........ also, it would help ensure I didn't accidentally shoot another hunter or hiker or something........ stupid eyesight....

Uh, yeah, that uh, that had nothing to do with vegetarian diets...... I just felt like talking about hunting.


No one knows me like I do.

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poipixie


member
Location: Brisvegas, Aus

Total posts: 53
Posted:I hate the idea of cruelty to animals simply because i think about it in the same mindframe as cruelty to humans. im vegetarian but i choose not to preach or try to convert people because i dont think its my place - i wouldnt want anyone trying to make me eat meat so i wont do it to others.

however, in my experience it is the meat eaters who are always trying to get me to eat meat, challenging me and trying to prove that vegetarianism is wrong. after talking to a few people about it, i realised that generally its because these people often feel guilty about eating meat and my vegetarianism reminds them of it!

Even though ive been vegetarian for a while now im still torn on some issues and find it really hard to draw the line. I can understand the point that plants are also living beings and thats something which i often think about. the main thing is that i don't want to be hypocritcal but it's really hard not to be. i feel strongly about not eating meat so i wouldnt want to go back, however, i feel that as long as i am vegetarian and still wear wool and silk etc. and eat the occaisional slice of cheese i am being a hypocrite! i dont want to use this as an excuse to go back to my meat eating days because its not something im comfortable with but i still find it hard to draw the line!!

on the health issue i do feel as though my diet is alot better and more stable/ nutritious but i know that thats not just from cutting out meat but rather going on a diet overhaul to make sure i stayed healthy. it's still not perfect and i am on iron supplements to stop my migraines but its better than before!

wow, that was long! sorry guys!


--*SaM*--

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by poipixie:



Even though ive been vegetarian for a while now im still torn on some issues and find it really hard to draw the line. I can understand the point that plants are also living beings and thats something which i often think about. the main thing is that i don't want to be hypocritcal but it's really hard not to be. i feel strongly about not eating meat so i wouldnt want to go back, however, i feel that as long as i am vegetarian and still wear wool and silk etc. and eat the occaisional slice of cheese i am being a hypocrite! i dont want to use this as an excuse to go back to my meat eating days because its not something im comfortable with but i still find it hard to draw the line!!

Don't feel guilty, the main thing is to think seriously about these things (which you have done) and when you see something as wrong to either stop doing it or do it less.

I don't think you should feel guilty about the odd slice of cheese cos your consumption of animal produce is a lot lower than most other peoples. If everyone did what you do the situation for animals would be a lot better.

Always makes me sad when people feel guilty about eating plants, and especially whem meat eaters qoute 'the rights of plants' as a justification for their meat eating and to make veggies fell guilty.

As pointed out in previous posts, to eat a meal of meat is equivalent to eating approx 10 meals of plants (cos so many plants are needed to sustain the animals life).

So by being vegitarian you are responsible for a lot less plant deaths than a meat eater.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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master ping


member
Location: derby

Total posts: 1
Posted:Hey Im a veggie and im 15! my mums a vegan and my dads a veggie! I have been veggie for...hmmm...12 years so i dnt have a clue what meat tastes like! i have just come back from a festival called the green gathering and they had the most amazing fod there! p.s did anyone go to the big green gathering?

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Boneyard


member
Location: USA

Total posts: 22
Posted:quote:Originally posted by onewheeldave:
An analogy-

A race of beings with a consciousness as far beyond ours as ours is beyond animals, descends upon the Earth and starts to farm humans.

They consider themselves ethical because they slaughter us humanely and because it is all part of the food chain and therefore of nature.

Although they acknowledge that humans do possess a rudimentary form of consciousness and can, to some extent, feel distress, it is of little consequence to them.

imagine your families next in the line for slaughter- what would you want to say to the slaughterers.

Unfortunatly, your words to them will make no more sense than the screams and squeals of pigs going to slaughter, do to us. If this were the situation, then it would suck to be human. I suppose I would try to convince the aliens not to eat me. There have actually been more than one Sci-fi story written on this topic. Ultimately, it would prove once and for all to humans that we ain't so effing special.

It could also be argued that our ethics are just a quaint little abberation in our brains, and that the wanton slaughter of animals, and even other people, is ok. As my roommate would argue, our overly strong attachment to living is a sign of intellectual and moral weakness.

He would probably argue that if we were being farmed by advanced aliens, then we should joyfully participate in the sorrows of our existence. Or something like that.

Anyway, I eat meat. I sometimes eat more or less, but I am not apologetic about it. I am constantly looking at it through the filter of my ethics, and I sometimes find little glitches, but unless something paradigm altering comes up, I can't imagine changing my behavior. You are welcome to follow your own path, just don't expect me to cook with you in mind.

As for my preachy comment, I thought I qualified it. Vegans can be preachy, but not all of them are. The ones I had in mind are the ones who's every conversation involves their veganism (sobriety, gun/gun law, Hemp, Amway product, etc), and how veganism is healthy, it cured their cancer, it made their penis/breasts large, it gave them the power of flight and invisibility, and if you don't change to veganism you are obviously the bastard child of Hitler and your teeth will fall out and you will drive an El Camino for the rest of your days.

I'm sure you know the type. It is only "non-mainstream" lifestyles (usually involving giving something up (I admit, I am guilty of this somewhat, being a non-smoker and recent excercise nut)) that tend to do that to ridiculous extremes. They are the ones you remember, not everyone else.

J

PS My roommate is big on the Atkins diet, so I get the preachy crap all the time. It chaps his ass when I eat Doritos every day and still lose weight.


A witty saying proves nothing.- Voltaire (1694-1778)

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bec
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

bec

member
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...

Total posts: 521
Posted:This is an interesting discussion and one which I have had in a variety of forms with many people over the past 13years of my own vegetarianism/veganism... which is one of the reasons I was going to just stay completely out of it this time round...
But many of points that have been brought up here are really food for thought...

I did particularly appreciate and respect many of the points you made in your earlier post Boneyard, and of the other well thought rational non-vegetarians' views...

but I just want to go on the record as one of the "non-preachy" vegans though... I make my own ethical/environmental/health decisions on the information that is available to me... none of us can really know the finite answers to questions debated here, but we can all choose to act the way we see fit... so if you are honest with yourself then you do what is right for you -and that will be different for each and every individual...
but if you have an element of doubt then seek information - find out how the meat on your plate actually gets there... if you are happy to know how the animal was born, raised and died then it's fine for you - enjoy... personally I choose to live a life happy & healthy without it & don't think I'll ever convert back... not unless I can look in an animal's eyes and be directly responsible for taking that life... but that's just me...*



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Libra
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

Libra

member
Location: Norway

Total posts: 47
Posted:I've been a vegetarian for 8 years. So many people have so many opinions about it.. I usually don't bother trying to defend my choice anymore. Beeing a vegetarian is right for me. It's not the fact that we kill animals that upset me. I think a lot of the animals we breed would prefer beeing dead rather than living the life we give them. I would rather eat a raindeer that has lived it's life in freedom than a pig who has spent years without seeing daylight and without enough space to move. If we are so much clever than all other animals we should use that skill to protect and care for them. That's how I feel..

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:hey everyone,

I wasnt going to respond, but I thought I might anyhow

The reason some Vegans tend to get preachy is the same reason people who understand basic math argue over a bill that hasnt been added up right.

If you have two people with different views on a given topic talking about that topic, they should be able to support their views..if one side cant (this is usually the people who eat meat and see no problems with the meat farming industry) the vegans / vegos sometimes set them straight. Now people dont like to have their own inconsitencies pointed out, so they direct their bad feelings onto the people who `caused` them. But the truth is that the truth hurts

Ignorance is whats screwing up this planet...

Pele, having grown up on a farm with a vege garden and goats, chickens, ducks, geese, pigeons, rabbits, etc all used to feed us in various ways (eggs, feathers for pillows, hides were a bit difficult so we gave up on them, but you know) Ive seen many a slaughter. and I can tell you that its virtually a polar opposite to how the animals are treated in the abbatoire(sp?) (slaughter factory).

And for every deer your dad brings down with his one shot, there are many a deer that gets poorly shot by some macho kid and his dad just trying to prove their manliness.

Josh


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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:rightly said, josh! you've saved me the pain of having to point that out!
hunting is barbaric and it sickens me.

I can't help but think that one day human kind will look back at meat in wonder. Everyone is entitled to their choice on this topic and I am wholly conviced as to the validity of vegetarianism as the better choice in life. Although i do eat meat, i just don't buy the counter arguments at all. And no, i have never been lambasted by a vegetarian/vegan. Those that have informed me did so with the utmost humility and would never ahve the gall to say that i was in a definite minority. Meat eaters and vegetarians are both blessed with the freedom to eat what they want and listen to whomever they want.

my heaped respect to all of you who have lived with the commitment to yourselves of vegetarianism.

also, i LOVE the instant-vegetarian anecdotes, sooo enjoyable!!!


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Josh:
Pele, having grown up on a farm with a vege garden and goats, chickens, ducks, geese, pigeons, rabbits, etc all used to feed us in various ways (eggs, feathers for pillows, hides were a bit difficult so we gave up on them, but you know) Ive seen many a slaughter. and I can tell you that its virtually a polar opposite to how the animals are treated in the abbatoire(sp?) (slaughter factory).And in this area, it is not done primarily in the slaughter houses but on the raising farms. That is why I encourage people to do more research hands on. And it is why there are various forms of meat available now...from those grown and slaughtered in houses, fed chemicals, and treated like crap...to those that are treated well through what lives they have and killed accordingly.

quote:And for every deer your dad brings down with his one shot, there are many a deer that gets poorly shot by some macho kid and his dad just trying to prove their manliness.

Josh And I believe that in my post I left no support of this and referred to it as Poaching...hmmm...in fact I did, and I displayed my very strong contempt for poaching.

As much as you seem to want to attack me for my views, I did post them in a way that was not accusatory, but more to illustrate that there are no absolutes. Not all slaughter is evil. Neither is all hunting. Again, it is knowing the facts and understanding that there are at least two sides to everything. I am not spreading ignorance at all, but giving the side of view that is not popularly concidered by animal rights activists.

I also said that it is a matter of personal choice and that people should be what feels right for them, as long as it is healthful and in either way does not interfere with the choices of others...or did that get missed as well?

And, there was a short story once about a woman who was spraying her flower bed for insects while these tower aliens covered the earth in this cloudy misty stuff. I loved this story so much that it has stayed with me since I first read it, about 18 years ago. Very akin to the alien hypothetical (and so is the movie The Matrix, and was the series V) to which I respond, let them. I am sure that Antelope in Africa wish they had a choice as to which family member gets eaten by the lion, but they don't....it is the same premise to me. Natural survival instinct. Would I be happy? Nope. Would I fight it? Sure. Would I lose? Most likely. Is it enough for me to create a moral standing to not eat meat? Nope, because I know that for my body to function properly for me, I need to eat meat, and I want to be at my peak so for me... it is basic survival. Does that mean I do not respect or adore animals as much as the next person? Not at all...I have worked for animal rehabilitation and environmental conservation groups many times throughout my life, right up to having my own rehab for reptiles.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:quote:Nope, because I know that for my body to function properly for me, I need to eat meatout of interest have you actually ever tried a serious, well planned vegetarian diet?

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by flid:
out of interest have you actually ever tried a serious, well planned vegetarian diet? Yes..and I have never felt worse in my life, well from eating, not illness. And I have a friend who swears by Atkins-low carb-HIGH protien and it doesn't work for me either. Both made me feel really laggy. No meat and I was stricken with horrible headaches and stomach aches. No carbs and I had very low energy and bad stomach aches(besides the fact that fruit happens to be my absolute favorite thing in the world, and *most* of it is a big ol no-no until you reach phase 3 ).
As I said, I learned alot in taking my cert courses for nutrition and herbalism, and I know what works for me and why.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Boneyard


member
Location: USA

Total posts: 22
Posted:Funny thing is, most the vegetarian types I meet are a little sickly. It's not always the case (Corey Everson is a vegetarian (yum!)), but I see it more often than not. These are people eating organic soy and lentils and taking herbal supplements each day, and they are always breaking out and look pale and are getting sick. I know there is no direct correlation I can draw, but casual observation has made me believe that veges tend to be less healthy.

I never said I support the current farming industry. I have read what goes on, and I think it's repulsive. Unfortunately, getting "fresh" meat is a bit expensive for me. In the future, I intend to go straight to the farm and get the animal of my choice slaughtered and butchered. That way I can make sure it didn't get pumped full of steroids and antibiotics.

From the eco standpoint, growing animals would not be an issue if their weren't six billion people, most of them wanting a hamburger. Our impact on the environment has less to do with our methods than it does having more and more people use those methods.

I have never been "up against the ropes" in an argument with a vege/vegan. They have no case to argue. They made their choice. There is nothing inherently natural about it, and the ethical superiority of it is debatable at best. In truth, all we can do is discuss preferences at this point.

J


A witty saying proves nothing.- Voltaire (1694-1778)

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bec
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

bec

member
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...

Total posts: 521
Posted:so now we're not only "preachy" but more often than not "a little sickly... & less healthy"

Boneyard, it's such a shame that amid your seemingly well thought out and reasoned arguments you throw in these strange "casual observations" - Who are these vegetarians that you keep meeting? come visit here and I'll introduce you to loads of wonderful, healthy, energetic vegetarians who wouldn't bother trying to convince you to do anything that you personally don't believe in...*

We're not interested in having an argument with you cause we know that we are doing the right thing (for ourselves)


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Boneyard


member
Location: USA

Total posts: 22
Posted:quote:Originally posted by bec:
Who are these vegetarians that you keep meeting? Probably the prosyeltizing ones

quote:Originally posted by bec:
come visit here and I'll introduce you to loads of wonderful, healthy, energetic vegetarians ...I would assume healthy veges have better things to do all day than corner me in the student hall and give me their spiel. The sickly ones can't go hiking or camping, so they sit on the corner and preach.


Here is where I could make a witty reference about soapboxes and hippie/veges, but I will refrain. I don't want to come across as a total ass

J


A witty saying proves nothing.- Voltaire (1694-1778)

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