Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
quote:that i can understand completely.
I am however telling whoever is will to hear (or read) that they will be judged and what they should do to be prepared for that judgment.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
quote:Why would I need to? all you seem to be doing is quoting an outdated book that has nothing to do with the current state of the world we live in. Mix in a tea-spoon of a closet homosexuality with a large helping of homophobia and TADA!
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Obviusly you have yet to read everything that I have written. Go back and read, then maybe I will answer your questions.
there is no better way to say I love you than with the gift of a spatula!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:I thought your homophobia stemmed purely from a religious viewpoint, which was reasonable enough I suppose. But to attempt scientific reasoning baffles me.
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Two penuses do not go together... granted there are several orifaces on the human body that you can stick it, but at the basic human design it just doesnt work.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:You don't need to, it just follows on from your logic, which I'll try to illustrate clearly below.
Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Where did I mention masterbation or sensual touch?
quote:Not at all. You're totally welcome to your opinion, I'm just trying to understand it.
Let me guess, my opinion is different from yours, right?
That must mean that I have to edjucated in the ways of the world untill my opinion is that of yours?
quote:They weren't meant as gross exaggerations. They were examples of following your logic, which I understood to be as follows:
I no longer have the right to an opinion as it does not equal yours. Because of this I should be subject to gross exagerations on everything that I say.
quote:If it is not immoral outside of your religious scope then why are you saying it's "wrong"? (your words) My point is that if something is deemed unnatural it does not necessarily mean it is wrong.
I never said that because I viewd it unnatural that I also viewd it immoral. No my morals are based on my religion. I was asked to explain myself with out using religion and I did. To the best of my ability.
quote:Yeesh - I didn't mean to upset you, sorry if I have. I won't apologise for challenging you on this though. It is a discussion that I feel is important.
Honestly I say get back on the friggin topic and off my opinion.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:first point i think is explained by the dictionary quote - christianity is homophobic by definition.
Coleman, Christianity does not say that homosexuality is okay. It never did and never will. Therefore how can it be homophobic like the example in the first post?
Coleman, if you believe in God, what do you base your belief off of if not an organised religion? Even if you base it off of your own opinions, you are oganising your belief into a religion, thus making you a hipocrite
quote:logical extension of which is that a sexual act involving anything other than a man and a woman using their genitalia (ie. the only correct arrangement that corresponds to the 'physical design') is therefore wrong:
Why is it wrong, with out using the Bible, in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love each other like that.
quote:why should we only do things that you deem we were 'designed' to do?! we weren't 'designed' to walk upright either but we do. are we doing wrong there too?
Anyone who masturbates, indulges in oral sex, touches another human with a finger to incite pleasure; all these people are immoral by your non-religious standard.
quote:i think the other people here's qualm is that you have yet to provide a decent basis for this opinion ray (and yes, i have read everything you have written in this thread, at least twice).
Consensual adult hetero sex is not immoral, however I feel homosexuality is.
quote:finally you never did mention why you didn't include lesbians in your discussion of homosexuality.
Is it wrong to for a man to love a man (I would include for a woman to love a woman but you will soon see why I didnt)?
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
quote:I do not think homosexuality is fine, why do you think I do? Why do you think Christianity says that homosexuality is fine? Where do you get this rubbish?
"oh i think you're fine - but you'll go to hell if you don't beg forgiveness for being as bad a sinner as murderers and rapists" (which is what you've been saying)
is VASTLY different from
"oh i think you're fine"
quote:Contempt? Why would I, and I mean me personaly not those who translated the Bible, feel contempt for any homosexual? Or better yet why do you feel that I hold contempt?
HOMOPHOBIA
NOUN: 1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. 2. Behavior based on such a feeling.
i think your opinion does equate to homophobia ray - as i have said, i do not see any hate or fear in your statements but i do see a large amount of contempt.
quote:Well... if you truly consider the destruction of Sodom as a hate crime, wouldnt the Flood be an even greater hate crime? I mean what only Noah and his family servived that?!?
excuse me if i misunderstand but if god really did kill the men of sodom for being gay, it has to rate as the largest scale hate crime on record.
if you can give me an example of a more homophobic act, i'll be impressed.
quote:So your saying that God, is afraid of his own creation? You are truly laughable!
according to your definition of christianity, christians should try to emulate jesus, who was the embodiment of god on earth, who was a homophobe!
quote:Tolerance? No it doenst teach tolerance per-say.
what does the bible really teach on this issue cos it sure isn't tolerance...?
quote:Are you telling me that I should make myself into my own god?
once a person begins to think for themselves and question the religious 'authority' they make the move towards their own 'religion'. a religion in this sense of the word is just a set of beliefs.
quote:Have you ever seen a dog hump a couch? I think that is proof that it chooses to (humorously at times) attempt to have sex when it wants.
homosexuality does exist in nature. many mammals have been observed to attempt to mate with the same sex - they don't get very far because they don't have sex for pleasure and thus have to give up when they can't find the right bits.
i do not as you suggested 'wish to relate humans to animals' however because humans are not just animals any more - we are on a higher level of conciousness and thus we choose when we have sex, who with and what for. most of the time we have sex not for natural reasons (procreation) but purely because it feels good - remember the observation that in gay sex the persons involved 'do nothing but satisfy their own desires'? - that is against the very fundamentals of nature too. so is all sex for pleasure wrong or not? according to your reasoning it is so if not, why not?
quote:Yes I completely ignored his comment about animals raping other animals and what not, for one reason alone... I didnt see it. Accidents happen bud
interestingly you completely ignored preambled's observation that in nature animals take multiple partners and commit rape
quote:Where do you get the idea that we were not meant to walk upright? Look at the bone structure of our bodies, Look at hour our head sits on our neck, the curvature of our spines, the very way our feet are shaped. hehe Now that was pulled out of your ass!
why should we only do things that you deem we were 'designed' to do?! we weren't 'designed' to walk upright either but we do. are we doing wrong there too?
quote:Why do I have to explain my opinion, why dont you tell me why homosexuality is the right thing to do?
i think the other people here's qualm is that you have yet to provide a decent basis for this opinion ray (and yes, i have read everything you have written in this thread, at least twice).
you tried to explain it relating it to nature and that analogy, as we have seen, fails.
the only basis you have given for your opinion as it stands is the bible.
quote:I didnt include for women to love women because I figure you smart enough to be able to swap out son and father for mother and daughter, man and man for woman and woman. I thought it made sence, I am sorry you disagree.
finally you never did mention why you didn't include lesbians in your discussion of homosexuality.
if its the fact that 'they don't have penises at all so its obvious they're not supposed to f*ck' so help me, i may die laughing!
but please do explain...
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:If you attack something that is apart of me, how is that not attacking me? You attack my religion you are attacking me, you attack my country, you are attacking me, you attack my government, you are attacking me, you attack my people, you attack me. END OF ****ING STORY! Believe me, I will defend myself to the bitter end.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frosty, are you attacking my religion or me? It is obvius that you hate Christians so why dont you come out and say it? Your past few posts have done nothing but tell me that. "I hate you Ray because you are a Christian, I hate your God, I have everything about you."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
your religion - you're just taking it personally.
if this is what you believe in then you should be willing and able to defend it. If I state an opinion then I'll be able to back it up - I'm only asking you to do that. If you can't - admit it. Don't make it out to be a personal attack.
quote:So there is only hate or acceptance?
There are a vast number of posts on this thread where you've made quite a point about how you don't hate homosexuals - how you think it's fine that they're in the army etc and you keep saying you don't hate homosexuals
Which equates to "it's fine" right?
quote:God, loves all that he created, he hates the sin that his creation relishes in. I do not expect you to understand it.
You've also made quite a point that god doesn't hate homosexuals - but what they do - i.e. "it's fine" - it might be a sin but you're not proactively hating and suggesting they get stoned to death.
i.e. "it's fine, but you have to beg forgiveness for your sins"
I'm not making it up mate - just repeating what you've said.
quote:All mankind needs saved, gay, strait, it doesnt matter all mankind needs saved. You, me, your mom and pop my family. Nobody needs pitty. God is beyond human emotion beyond our cotempt, though God is jelouse and this is hard for alot of people to understand. He loves us so much that He wants the best for us. It is my faith that it is His plans that are the best for us. Sin, in all its form, is not in his plan.
did you even read the definition of homophobia? go back and read it. heck you even quoted it in this message - check it out. fear OR contempt. to suggest an entire swathe of people (who god created gay) need pity and 'saving' is contempt
quote:No sorry the point from very early on was that people say it is okay to be gay, but not in their family.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However the Bible does teach to love the sinner and to hate the sin. I doubt you truly understand how to do this, because I honestly have trouble with it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that - as we've been saying since very early on - is the new homophobia.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:i gave a quote for what homophobia is. comtempt means 'feeling that person or thing is deserving of extreme reproach or scorn'. accusing homosexuals of being immoral and saying they must repent or go to hell for it says to me that you think they deserve extreme reproach - just because you don't think they should be persecuted in life doesn't mean that the belief that they will be damned for it in the afterlife is any better.
I find it interesting how you find it easier to attack me than to discuss what true homophobia is.
quote:well done ray. incorrectly paraphrasing someone and accusing them of only expressing hate is an excellent way to calmly debate a subject. gold star mate.
Frosty, are you attacking my religion or me? It is obvius that you hate Christians so why dont you come out and say it? Your past few posts have done nothing but tell me that. "I hate you Ray because you are a Christian, I hate your God, I have everything about you."
quote:wouldn't it be more sensible to clarify your point than to inflame the issue with childish bullsh*t (sorry but that's how i see those comments).
I guess that if you can put words in my mouth, then I can put words in yours.
quote:i realise that you don't think homosexuality is fine (i pick up on things real quick me, i'm like a detective ).
I do not think homosexuality is fine, why do you think I do? Why do you think Christianity says that homosexuality is fine? Where do you get this rubbish?
quote:you feel that being gay is wrong and immoral and that if someone does not repent for this 'sin' that they will go to hell. you have stated that the sin (in your estimation, not god's) is on the par with rape and murder. i think that qualifies as contempt - similar to the contempt that murderers and rapists are held in.
quote:Contempt? Why would I, and I mean me personaly not those who translated the Bible, feel contempt for any homosexual? Or better yet why do you feel that I hold contempt?
HOMOPHOBIA
NOUN: 1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. 2. Behavior based on such a feeling.
i think your opinion does equate to homophobia ray - as i have said, i do not see any hate or fear in your statements but i do see a large amount of contempt.
quote:hate crime.
quote:Well... if you truly consider the destruction of Sodom as a hate crime, wouldnt the Flood be an even greater hate crime? I mean what only Noah and his family servived that?!?
excuse me if i misunderstand but if god really did kill the men of sodom for being gay, it has to rate as the largest scale hate crime on record.
if you can give me an example of a more homophobic act, i'll be impressed.
The men in Sodom were not killed souly for being gay, I have said that before, but it was a major enough to offend God. Gomorrah, was also destroyed because of its sin, though it really wasnt spoken of too much. I cant answer why.
quote:well misdirected - as long as you keep making me quote duictionary definitions, you'll never have to actually address the issues i'm raising...
quote:So your saying that God, is afraid of his own creation? You are truly laughable!
according to your definition of christianity, christians should try to emulate jesus, who was the embodiment of god on earth, who was a homophobe!
quote:that's because its almost impossible to do in practice ray - the only character who really got close was jesus (re: judas, the romans etc.).
quote:Tolerance? No it doenst teach tolerance per-say.
what does the bible really teach on this issue cos it sure isn't tolerance...?
However the Bible does teach to love the sinner and to hate the sin. I doubt you truly understand how to do this, because I honestly have trouble with it.
quote:i'm suggesting that god doesn't have to be the 'person' that the bible tells you he is. and moreover that the way he wants you to live your life is not neccessarily how the majority of your religion's followers believe you should.
quote:Are you telling me that I should make myself into my own god?
once a person begins to think for themselves and question the religious 'authority' they make the move towards their own 'religion'. a religion in this sense of the word is just a set of beliefs.
quote:and what about apes and monkeys? i know you don't subscribe to evolution so technically there is no connection but you made the animal-human comparison first so don't blame me here.
quote:Have you ever seen a dog hump a couch? I think that is proof that it chooses to (humorously at times) attempt to have sex when it wants.
homosexuality does exist in nature. many mammals have been observed to attempt to mate with the same sex - they don't get very far because they don't have sex for pleasure and thus have to give up when they can't find the right bits.
i do not as you suggested 'wish to relate humans to animals' however because humans are not just animals any more - we are on a higher level of conciousness and thus we choose when we have sex, who with and what for. most of the time we have sex not for natural reasons (procreation) but purely because it feels good - remember the observation that in gay sex the persons involved 'do nothing but satisfy their own desires'? - that is against the very fundamentals of nature too. so is all sex for pleasure wrong or not? according to your reasoning it is so if not, why not?
quote:you were the one who blurred the line. you said:
Your trying to mix two different subjects, sex for pleasure and same-sex intercourse. Only one at a time.
quote:well i expanded on it in my last post bud. this time you have certainly chosen to avoid attmpting to explain how the analogy is still valid.
quote:Yes I completely ignored his comment about animals raping other animals and what not, for one reason alone... I didnt see it. Accidents happen bud
interestingly you completely ignored preambled's observation that in nature animals take multiple partners and commit rape
quote:or is this your clarification?! so then, it's just lobsters (who mate for life) that we should be taking our moral values towards relationships and sexuality from? the rest of the animal kingdom (especially the mammals) take multiple mates throughout their lives - are they less 'natural' than lobsters. what about murder...? any comment on that aspect of the analogy?
I know that some humans like to have their animals get "married" but it just isnt the same things, also dont forget that some animals do mate for life.
quote:actually, was pulled it out of darwin's ass. why do we have what a cocyx if we never walked bent over (possibly on all fours) and used a tail?
quote:Where do you get the idea that we were not meant to walk upright? Look at the bone structure of our bodies, Look at hour our head sits on our neck, the curvature of our spines, the very way our feet are shaped. hehe Now that was pulled out of your ass!
why should we only do things that you deem we were 'designed' to do?! we weren't 'designed' to walk upright either but we do. are we doing wrong there too?
quote:great way to debate ray: 'lets assume my prejudice is right! now you prove me wrong!'
quote:Why do I have to explain my opinion, why dont you tell me why homosexuality is the right thing to do?
i think the other people here's qualm is that you have yet to provide a decent basis for this opinion ray (and yes, i have read everything you have written in this thread, at least twice).
you tried to explain it relating it to nature and that analogy, as we have seen, fails.
the only basis you have given for your opinion as it stands is the bible.
quote:your opinion is the epitomy of the description of the 'new homophobia'.
Is my opinion the reason for this debate or is homophobia?
quote:your argument still does not stand - whether it is man and man or woman and woman. your discussion applies equally to heterosexual sex for pleasure as it does for same sex relations. if you can define the defining difference with respect to your argument i will understand.
quote:I didnt include for women to love women because I figure you smart enough to be able to swap out son and father for mother and daughter, man and man for woman and woman. I thought it made sence, I am sorry you disagree.
finally you never did mention why you didn't include lesbians in your discussion of homosexuality.
if its the fact that 'they don't have penises at all so its obvious they're not supposed to f*ck' so help me, i may die laughing!
but please do explain...
quote:'two adults in a consentual act that affects no-one but the two people involved.'
So who wants to tell me why homosexuality is right. I mean other than the phiosiphy; Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! And the philosiphy, if it feels good, do it!
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
quote:i gave a definition of what homophobia is. comtempt means 'feeling that person or thing is deserving of extreme reproach or scorn'. accusing homosexuals of being immoral and saying they must repent or go to hell for it says to me that you think they deserve extreme reproach - just because you don't think they should be persecuted in life doesn't mean that the belief that they will be damned for it in the afterlife is any better.
I find it interesting how you find it easier to attack me than to discuss what true homophobia is.
quote:well done ray. incorrectly paraphrasing someone and accusing them of only expressing hate is an excellent way to calmly debate a subject. gold star mate.
Frosty, are you attacking my religion or me? It is obvius that you hate Christians so why dont you come out and say it? Your past few posts have done nothing but tell me that. "I hate you Ray because you are a Christian, I hate your God, I have everything about you."
quote:wouldn't it be more sensible to clarify your point than to inflame the issue with childish bullsh*t (sorry but that's how i see those comments).
I guess that if you can put words in my mouth, then I can put words in yours.
quote:i realise that you don't think homosexuality is fine (i pick up on things real quick me, i'm like a detective ).
I do not think homosexuality is fine, why do you think I do? Why do you think Christianity says that homosexuality is fine? Where do you get this rubbish?
quote:you feel that being gay is wrong and immoral and that if someone does not repent for this 'sin' that they will go to hell. you have stated that the sin (in your estimation, not god's) is on the par with rape and murder. i think that qualifies as contempt - similar to the contempt that murderers and rapists are held in.
quote:Contempt? Why would I, and I mean me personaly not those who translated the Bible, feel contempt for any homosexual? Or better yet why do you feel that I hold contempt?
HOMOPHOBIA
NOUN: 1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. 2. Behavior based on such a feeling.
i think your opinion does equate to homophobia ray - as i have said, i do not see any hate or fear in your statements but i do see a large amount of contempt.
quote:hate crime.
quote:Well... if you truly consider the destruction of Sodom as a hate crime, wouldnt the Flood be an even greater hate crime? I mean what only Noah and his family servived that?!?
excuse me if i misunderstand but if god really did kill the men of sodom for being gay, it has to rate as the largest scale hate crime on record.
if you can give me an example of a more homophobic act, i'll be impressed.
The men in Sodom were not killed souly for being gay, I have said that before, but it was a major enough to offend God. Gomorrah, was also destroyed because of its sin, though it really wasnt spoken of too much. I cant answer why.
quote:well misdirected - as long as you keep making me quote duictionary definitions, you'll never have to actually address the issues i'm raising...
quote:So your saying that God, is afraid of his own creation? You are truly laughable!
according to your definition of christianity, christians should try to emulate jesus, who was the embodiment of god on earth, who was a homophobe!
quote:that's because its almost impossible to do in practice ray - the only character who really got close was jesus (re: judas, the romans etc.).
quote:Tolerance? No it doenst teach tolerance per-say.
what does the bible really teach on this issue cos it sure isn't tolerance...?
However the Bible does teach to love the sinner and to hate the sin. I doubt you truly understand how to do this, because I honestly have trouble with it.
quote:i'm suggesting that god doesn't have to be the 'person' that the bible tells you he is. and moreover that the way he wants you to live your life is not neccessarily how the majority of your religion's followers believe you should.
quote:Are you telling me that I should make myself into my own god?
once a person begins to think for themselves and question the religious 'authority' they make the move towards their own 'religion'. a religion in this sense of the word is just a set of beliefs.
quote:and what about apes and monkeys? i know you don't subscribe to evolution so technically there is no connection but you made the animal-human comparison first so don't blame me here dude
quote:Have you ever seen a dog hump a couch? I think that is proof that it chooses to (humorously at times) attempt to have sex when it wants.
homosexuality does exist in nature. many mammals have been observed to attempt to mate with the same sex - they don't get very far because they don't have sex for pleasure and thus have to give up when they can't find the right bits.
i do not as you suggested 'wish to relate humans to animals' however because humans are not just animals any more - we are on a higher level of conciousness and thus we choose when we have sex, who with and what for. most of the time we have sex not for natural reasons (procreation) but purely because it feels good - remember the observation that in gay sex the persons involved 'do nothing but satisfy their own desires'? - that is against the very fundamentals of nature too. so is all sex for pleasure wrong or not? according to your reasoning it is so if not, why not?
quote:you were the one who blurred the line. you said:
Your trying to mix two different subjects, sex for pleasure and same-sex intercourse. Only one at a time.
quote:well i expanded on it in my last post bud. this time you have certainly chosen to avoid attmpting to explain how the analogy is still valid.
quote:Yes I completely ignored his comment about animals raping other animals and what not, for one reason alone... I didnt see it. Accidents happen bud
interestingly you completely ignored preambled's observation that in nature animals take multiple partners and commit rape
quote:or is this your clarification?!
I know that some humans like to have their animals get "married" but it just isnt the same things, also dont forget that some animals do mate for life.
quote:actually, it was pulled out of darwin's ass. why do we have what a cocyx if we never walked bent over (possibly on all fours) and used a tail?
quote:Where do you get the idea that we were not meant to walk upright? Look at the bone structure of our bodies, Look at hour our head sits on our neck, the curvature of our spines, the very way our feet are shaped. hehe Now that was pulled out of your ass!
why should we only do things that you deem we were 'designed' to do?! we weren't 'designed' to walk upright either but we do. are we doing wrong there too?
quote:great way to debate ray: 'lets assume my prejudice is right! now you prove me wrong!'
quote:Why do I have to explain my opinion, why dont you tell me why homosexuality is the right thing to do?
i think the other people here's qualm is that you have yet to provide a decent basis for this opinion ray (and yes, i have read everything you have written in this thread, at least twice).
you tried to explain it relating it to nature and that analogy, as we have seen, fails.
the only basis you have given for your opinion as it stands is the bible.
quote:your opinion is the epitomy of the description of the 'new homophobia'.
Is my opinion the reason for this debate or is homophobia?
quote:your argument still does not stand - whether it is man and man or woman and woman. your discussion applies equally to heterosexual sex for pleasure as it does for same sex relations. if you can state the defining difference with respect to your argument i will understand.
quote:I didnt include for women to love women because I figure you smart enough to be able to swap out son and father for mother and daughter, man and man for woman and woman. I thought it made sence, I am sorry you disagree.
finally you never did mention why you didn't include lesbians in your discussion of homosexuality.
if its the fact that 'they don't have penises at all so its obvious they're not supposed to f*ck' so help me, i may die laughing!
but please do explain...
quote:'two adults in a consentual act that affects no-one but the two people involved.'
So who wants to tell me why homosexuality is right. I mean other than the phiosiphy; Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! And the philosiphy, if it feels good, do it!
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.
I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
quote:I'm not going to debate the semantics here. I say homophobia, you say "believing homosexuality is immoral".
Consensual adult hetero sex is not immoral, however I feel homosexuality is.
Like I have asked before, show me the hate, show me the fear.
quote:Cole, I actually believe that the beating around the bush on the Bible and trying to intepret each and every word to a particular desired meaning is counter-productive. The Bible is pretty clear on the whole "Thou Shalt Not Kill" bit, and yet how many can use that very Book to justify killing? It's no different from people who try to interpret Genesis as actually playing out evolution. That's just not what it says.
Originally posted by coleman:
the thing that strikes me here is that nowhere in those three quotes (from three different versions of the bible) does it directly say the men were homosexuals - that they wanted to have sex with the two men under lot's care.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
quote:No I feel that all sin is wrong, not just homophobia, so does this mean that I feel comtempt for myself?
you feel that being gay is wrong and immoral and that if someone does not repent for this 'sin' that they will go to hell. you have stated that the sin (in your estimation, not god's) is on the par with rape and murder. i think that qualifies as contempt - similar to the contempt that murderers and rapists are held in
quote:The men were not the only ones to die, no where does it say that all the women and children were gay, no where does it say the animals were gay, yet EVERYTHING was wiped out. Gay, strait they all died. So obviusly it was not an attack designed to souly wipe out homosexuals. Sorry guys calling it a hate crime just doesnt work.
nowhere does it list the reasons for why god wiped out sodom but the assumption is that as the only factor common to all the men of the city is that they were gay then this is why god killed them all and not just the ones who had committed further sins. their 'sin' was homosexuality and they were killed for it.
hate crime.
quote:God does not scorn or hold in contempt His creation, he loves it so much that he sent his only son to die for it. If that is contempt then please shoot me now!
well misdirected - as long as you keep making me quote duictionary definitions, you'll never have to actually address the issues i'm raising...
homophobia doesn't just always imply fear!
'fear OR deserving of extreme contempt or scorn'.
god will send a gay person to eternal damnation if they do not stand before him and announce that they are truly sorry for being gay while they were alive. that rates as some heavy ass scorn i reckon. so yes, god is homophobic too it seems.
quote:Okay, love the sinner and hate the sin, it doesnt say Love the murderer hate the muder or love the homosexual hate the fact that they are with a person of the same sex,
that's because its almost impossible to do in practice ray - the only character who really got close was jesus (re: judas, the romans etc.).
trying to separate the murderer from the murder, or the rapist from the rape is almost impossible. both of these sins involve harming another human which by definition is without their consent. i don't understand how you can equate this to consentual gay sex?!
quote:So if the majority of my religion jumped off a friggin bridge should I do the same??
i'm suggesting that god doesn't have to be the 'person' that the bible tells you he is. and moreover that the way he wants you to live your life is not neccessarily how the majority of your religion's followers believe you should.
quote:And you are whom, that you can decide that the Bible is full of lies? If one part of the Bible is false then it is all false. Sorry you cant pick and choose only that which floats your boat. Its like sitting on a picket fence, it just dont work!
all i'm saying there is i think a heavy dose of 'thinking for yourself' on top of a religion is a far more sensible way to construct moral views than to assume truth in every word of the chosen religious text (aka fundamentalism).
quote:Show me an animal with the same brain capeablities as man and I will show you a human dressed like an animal.
i said i don't want that comparison - it is you who is using nature as your basis of your standpoint that being gay is wrong. i'm asking if you make that link, why do you not make the rest?
quote:I am sorry you dont see the differance between how two gay people have sex and two strait people. Though granted there are many different positions one can find themselves, gay or strait.
you were the one who blurred the line. you said:
'It goes against the very fundamentals of nature. If you wish to relate humans to other mammals, the whole purpose of mating is to procreate and extend the life of the species. In this two male species can not accomplish. They do nothing but satisfy their own desires.'
you can replace the same sex act with a heterosexual sex act with contraception and the statement is still 100% correct. with that in mind, can you explain why you consider the two to be different...?
quote:Animals do not think the same as humans, they have sex to mate, a male dog doesnt think, damn she is fine... I am gonna rape that bitch!
well i expanded on it in my last post bud. this time you have certainly chosen to avoid attmpting to explain how the analogy is still valid.
quote:Sorry I just dont find a big bang nor primordial ooze convincing.
if so i'd love to discuss (on another thread) which bits don't make sense to you. i think most prople that have studied it find pretty damn convincing
for anyone that cares, the blind watchmaker by richard dawkins is an excellent introduction to (the neo-darwinism version of) evolution.
quote:I personall believe that there is a difference in killing, and murder. I feel that murder is wrong, and killing isnt. For the sake of arguments, please lets discuss killing and murder in a different thread or PM me or something.
going back to your 'we weren't designed to do that so it must be wrong' theory... what about the fact that we were designed to kill (fighting instincts and sharp fangs, both bestowed upon us by god) does that mean killing is right and being gay is wrong? by the same token, is taking an aeroplane a sin? we were never designed to fly...?
quote:What predjudice do you speek of? Though you still didnt answer my question. Perhaps you cant.
great way to debate ray: 'lets assume my prejudice is right! now you prove me wrong!'
quote:You know you have to wonder who was the first guy to recieve oral sex... how brave/drunk was he?
to recap you said: 'in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that.' this argument makes no distinction between say oral sex and gay sex.
quote:Just because it doesnt do imeadiate harm doesnt mean that its okay.
'two adults in a consentual act that affects no-one but the two people involved.'
for any action that can be described by the sentence above i would have trouble understanding where you can see any wrongdoing?
quote:I have backed up my opinion as best I could, if that isnt good enough, then your just going to have to accept that this is how I feel and you are not going to change it. Life is hard... wear a helmate!
nothing we have said since changes this. you've been asked to explain what basis (other than the teachings of the bible) has brought about your opinion that homosexuality is immoral.
you are flat out refusing to back it up with sensibile arguments and so i don't see why i should spend time writing out retorts to your inflammatory remarks and poorly thought out analogies and comparisons.
quote:That is your opinion, not mine. Tough ninny, get over it.
My argument is that, outside the scope of religious belief, homosexuality is amoral; it falls outside any moral judgements. It is neither moral nor immoral. Not wrong or right, just like any sexual behaviour between consenting adults
quote:The wonderfull thing here is, I dont have to give you a reason why it is moral outside of religion. If you truly want to play that way, is murder moral, outside of religious text?
But you have not given me any reason to believe that the same is true outside religion.
quote:So your saying that just because the human body isnt desinged to procreate with the same sex however if the same sex still finds a way to have sex and if it feels good, that all is good?
That is the crux of the issue here, for me. If the new homophobia existed solely in religious circles I wouldn't be nearly as incensed about it. The fact is, people try to argue this faux "unnatural" idea, which falls to pieces every time I examine it.
quote:Mike,
This is simply not an issue for me, though because I don't believe a word of the Bible. And in the USA, that is (still) my right (for now).
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:the bible says, explicitly 'thou shalt not kill'.
And you are whom, that you can decide that the Bible is full of lies? If one part of the Bible is false then it is all false. Sorry you cant pick and choose only that which floats your boat. Its like sitting on a picket fence, it just dont work!
quote:i think that qualifies as 'picking and choosing what floats your boat' dude.
I personall believe that there is a difference in killing, and murder. I feel that murder is wrong, and killing isnt. For the sake of arguments, please lets discuss killing and murder in a different thread or PM me or something.
quote:of course not - but now you're thinking!
So if the majority of my religion jumped off a friggin bridge should I do the same??
quote:have you never had sex without vaginal penetration then ray - without that is the act unnatural? if you remove penetration from the equation, the sex had by gay and straight people would be i imagine, virtually indistinguishable.
I am sorry you dont see the differance between how two gay people have sex and two strait people. Though granted there are many different positions one can find themselves, gay or strait.
quote:you don't have to believe in either of those things to see evidence of cumulative natural selection all around us. but if you're not interested in challenging your preconceptions (or 'the book of genesis' as you might prefer to call them ) then don't look any further.
Sorry I just dont find a big bang nor primordial ooze convincing.
quote:now i know they go together on tv a lot ray but contrary to your belief, sex and violence are not the same thing.
So your saying that just because the human body isnt desinged to procreate with the same sex however if the same sex still finds a way to have sex and if it feels good, that all is good?
If I walked over to my roommate, and just hauled off and hit him would that be okay? I mean he has pissed me off alot latly and damn I do just want to hit him, I know it would feel good.
quote:please clarify - you are suggesting there is harm done to other people in the long term by two gay people having a relationship. please define the problems you believe it will cause, whether immediate or long term.
Just because it doesnt do imeadiate harm doesnt mean that its okay.
quote:just because you are willing to kill for it doesn't mean the country belongs to you ray. i think when talking to another american the correct term would be 'our country'...? maybe i'm wrong though (i haven't read the constitution lately) - tell ya what, show me your reciept and i'll believe america is yours more than it is mike's
It is obvius that you dont want anything to do with my country
quote:
My argument is that, outside the scope of religious belief, homosexuality is amoral; it falls outside any moral judgements. It is neither moral nor immoral. Not wrong or right, just like any sexual behaviour between consenting adults.
quote:i don't blame you for avoiding those though - they're pretty hard to argue against.
If the Bible told you to believe being black was immoral, I would feel the same way. I wouldn't agree with it, but I would be accepting of it, just as you are of homosexuality. But you have not given me any reason to believe that the same is true outside religion.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
quote:Hahahahaha WTF is this??
before christianity arrived on these shores there was no mass-homophobia
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.
I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.
I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
quote:Okay, I'll send you a PM on this one if its cool with you man, this just isnt the place for this discussion.
the bible says, explicitly 'thou shalt not kill'.
but then you say:
quote:
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I personall believe that there is a difference in killing, and murder. I feel that murder is wrong, and killing isnt. For the sake of arguments, please lets discuss killing and murder in a different thread or PM me or something.
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i think that qualifies as 'picking and choosing what floats your boat' dude.
the bible is not ambiguous over this issue murder is just killing under a particular set of circumstances defined by humans.
killing is still killing. period.
sorry but beyond your glaring contradiction here i don't think i want to discuss this at all.
a righteous killing is a misnomer as far as i'm concerned.
quote:I already make my own judgments on morality, I choose to agree with the Bible.
quote:
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So if the majority of my religion jumped off a friggin bridge should I do the same??
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of course not - but now you're thinking!
now extend that attitude of independent thought to the teachings of the bible (like you have already with 'thou shalt not kill') and you're well on your way to making your own moral judgements on all kinds of issues
quote:No, I have not. Sex between gay and strait people is quite distinguishable. Maybe the fact that there are either two men or two women having sex instead of a man and a woman just escapes you.
quote:
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I am sorry you dont see the differance between how two gay people have sex and two strait people. Though granted there are many different positions one can find themselves, gay or strait.
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have you never had sex without vaginal penetration then ray - without that is the act unnatural? if you remove penetration from the equation, the sex had by gay and straight people would be i imagine, virtually indistinguishable.
if i understand correctly, your argument is that sex with no chance of procreation is unnatural and a sin?
quote:There is not one scientific explination of the creation of earth, that can not be disproven using science. However, science can not disprove the Bibles explination of the Creation of existance.
quote:
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Sorry I just dont find a big bang nor primordial ooze convincing.
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you don't have to believe in either of those things to see evidence of cumulative natural selection all around us. but if you're not interested in challenging your preconceptions (or 'the book of genesis' as you might prefer to call them ) then don't look any further.
it just means that our arguments based on 'what we were designed to do' is at an end because fundamentally, we believe different things - you believe god created us as we are and i believe we evolved from lower species. another case of agreeing to disagree methinks.
quote:You are right, that in both strait and gay sex two (or more ) people are doing something for pleasure.
now i know they go together on tv a lot ray but contrary to your belief, sex and violence are not the same thing.
to be frank i think that comparison is truly ridiculous.
in consentual sex (gay or straight), two people do things to make both themselves and each other feel good
quote:By definition oral sex is sodomy, and no you dont want my sex life. I am satisfied with it, but I would call it a safe bet that the majority of the world wouldnt be.
compare heterosexual sodomy and oral sex to gay sodomy and oral sex and again i ask where the difference lies?
seriously, if your attitude to sex is not 'do what feels good', if all you have sex for is procreation then i'm glad i don't have your sex life man!
quote:Well... yes and no. Physically, there may not be, but perhaps you should ask Mike about the risks of STDs. Here is a fact for you, a hole in a condom, may not lead to the condom breaking, but it can still lead to the spread of the HIV virus. Think of it this way, take a tractor tire (thats the hole in the condom) take a golfball (the HIV virus)... how easy would it be for you to throw that golfball through the tire?
please clarify - you are suggesting there is harm done to other people in the long term by two gay people having a relationship. please define the problems you believe it will cause, whether immediate or long term
quote:I am also willing to die for it, are you willing to die for yours.
quote:
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It is obvius that you dont want anything to do with my country
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just because you are willing to kill for it doesn't mean the country belongs to you ray. i think when talking to another american the correct term would be 'our country'...? maybe i'm wrong though (i haven't read the constitution lately) - tell ya what, show me your reciept and i'll believe america is yours more than it is mike's
quote:Do I have to answer everything?
oh, and the two excellent points raised by preambled that you ignored were:
quote:If morality is based souly on religion then I would agree with you. Even without religion I do not agree with homosexuality. Honestly I dont know how to explain it any other way. It is just my opinion and your just going to have to suck it up and live with it!
My argument is that, outside the scope of religious belief, homosexuality is amoral; it falls outside any moral judgements. It is neither moral nor immoral. Not wrong or right, just like any sexual behaviour between consenting adults.
quote:So now in order for you to accept my opinion I must explain it to you? Sorry, but your just going to have to live with the fact that I do not view homosexuality as moral, propper, right, okay, fine or any other positive word. I think it is wrong, with or without religion. Explain it... I dont have to, its just that simple. It is my opnion not yours I have to deal with it, you dont. Therefore I dont have to explain it. Who are you to demand an explination from me?
quote:
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If the Bible told you to believe being black was immoral, I would feel the same way. I wouldn't agree with it, but I would be accepting of it, just as you are of homosexuality. But you have not given me any reason to believe that the same is true outside religion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
quote:i didn't think i had attacked you ray (prior to my reaction to your 'insult frosty' post). i have tried my very best to keep this discussion as impersonal as it can be. i have challenged your views and opinions, as you have mine but i was not aware i had personally 'attacked' you.
So what your saying Coleman, is that its okay for you and Frosty to attack me, but when I go on the offensive it's rude?
Do you always hold this kind of double standerd?
quote:i don't need a patronising analogy of holes in condoms and the size of the hiv virus cheers mate that same condom with the hole in same sex intercourse will still spread hiv.
Well... yes and no. Physically, there may not be, but perhaps you should ask Mike about the risks of STDs. Here is a fact for you, a hole in a condom, may not lead to the condom breaking, but it can still lead to the spread of the HIV virus. Think of it this way, take a tractor tire (thats the hole in the condom) take a golfball (the HIV virus)... how easy would it be for you to throw that golfball through the tire?
I am sure Mike can go into more detail about the spread of things like syphulis and what not.
Now I am not saying that every homosexual will get an STD, but I am sure that Mike can provide the evidence that there is a higher rate of STDs in gay couples than in strait, in cases where it was actually transmitted through sex and not the shareing of needles and what not.
quote:still you have yet to show how it causes harm to anyone but the two people involved.
quote:Just because it doesnt do imeadiate harm doesnt mean that its okay.
'two adults in a consentual act that affects no-one but the two people involved.'
for any action that can be described by the sentence above i would have trouble understanding where you can see any wrongdoing?
quote:this is what the new homophobia is all about!
Harm to others, unfortunatly not all families will support a gay family member. It may be cruel and wrong but it may just hurt the family.
quote:okay i was just trying to point out that like your choice to disagree with 'thou shalt not kill', you could choose to have views on other issues that contradict what the bible teaches.
I already make my own judgments on morality, I choose to agree with the Bible.
quote:to coin one of your terms ray - you pulled that straight out of your ass (even though it's arse )!
There is not one scientific explination of the creation of earth, that can not be disproven using science. However, science can not disprove the Bibles explination of the Creation of existance.
Personally I feel it takes more faith to believe in any form of evoloution than it does to believe in Creation.
quote:the bible has more incest in it than any other book i've read (that bit in genesis(?) where there's just loads of 'beagatting' is enough by itself!). i don't believe incest is right - do you?
So prove to me that homosexuality is right.
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
quote:You have however attacked me in the past, maybe not this post.
i didn't think i had attacked you ray (prior to my reaction to your 'insult frosty' post). i have tried my very best to keep this discussion as impersonal as it can be. i have challenged your views and opinions, as you have mine but i was not aware i had personally 'attacked' you.
if i did, i am sorry.
quote:Dont worry about it, you'll see my reasoning, just cean out your mailbox.
i'll wait for your pm but i still don't see how you can think you are not contradicting yourself when you say "i take every word of the bible as true. it says 'thou shalt not kill' but i say murder is wrong, killing is not."
now that is a double standard
quote:Lets leave this one for a different post, or a pm... start one if you want (Just trying to keep things on topic)
on a similar note you asked if i am willing to die for my country? i would say i am willing to die to protect the way of life that i choose. however i am neither willing to kill or be killed on behalf of a 'leader' i didn't vote for and don't trust.
i'm not sure if i still qualify as a good citizen with that opinion but i don't plan to only ever reside in this country anyway - i see very few scenarios in which i would put myself in the position to die for any country.
quote:Your right that the blame doesnt fall with the gay person, it falls with the family member, however if the person was not gay then the situation wouldnt be, also if the family member would be more tollerant, then the situation wouldnt exist.
quote:
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Harm to others, unfortunatly not all families will support a gay family member. It may be cruel and wrong but it may just hurt the family.
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this is what the new homophobia is all about!
ray - if someone is gay and they come out to their family and someone in that family is intolerent/prejudiced/bigoted towards homosexuality and it hurts the family, it is *that* person's fault. it is the intolerance of homosexuality that creates the problem, not the fact that someone in the family is gay.
quote:Your right man, I never said it was right or fair, but you cant deny that it happens. It shouldnt happen, but once again I was asked for an example and I gave it, blame wasnt part of the question.
you could say the same thing about mixed race relationships - some people are bigoted and will not be happy with a mixed race marriage in their family - if the family suffers it is the racist's fault, not the couple in love.
quote:You'll understand this later when you read my PM.
quote:
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I already make my own judgments on morality, I choose to agree with the Bible.
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okay i was just trying to point out that like your choice to disagree with 'thou shalt not kill', you could choose to have views on other issues that contradict what the bible teaches.
fair enough if you'd rather just keep it to one of the commandments.
quote:I am no umm... archiologist (if thats spelled right I want a million dollars!) I'll tell you this much... I need your help here, pretend for a minute that you believe as Christians believe, would it not be possible for a God who created everything to create and destroy something like the dinousaurs? Why were dinousaurs like the T-rex and what not wiped out? Did you read about Noah taking them on the ark?
quote:
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There is not one scientific explination of the creation of earth, that can not be disproven using science. However, science can not disprove the Bibles explination of the Creation of existance.
Personally I feel it takes more faith to believe in any form of evoloution than it does to believe in Creation.
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to coin one of your terms ray - you pulled that straight out of your ass (even though it's arse )!
here's a nice start - try and explain where all the fossils we've found (including the dinosaurs) fit into the bible's timeline...
and to ignore the evidence of cumulative natural selection you have to shut your eyes very, very tightly. i think from these comments it is evident that by choosing to believe in genesis you have likewise chosen to dismiss any other theories, no matter how little you have looked into them.
the evidence for evolution is overwhelming - if you don't agree then you blatently haven't studied the subject any more than skimming the basic premise.
imho, the likelihood that women were created from a man's rib and then got 'knowledge' by eating an apple from a forbidden tree (damning the race in the process) because a snake told her to do it is pretty low.
quote:hehe umm procreation is reproduction, if it isnt right why are we here?
quote:
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So prove to me that homosexuality is right.
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the bible has more incest in it than any other book i've read (that bit in genesis(?) where there's just loads of 'beagatting' is enough by itself!). i don't believe incest is right - do you?
i don't think anyone has to prove homosexulaity is 'right' either as i too believe this it is amoral - or to be more vague and cryptic, 'it just is'.
for example, its similar to saying prove procreation is right. its pretty hard to do without making a baseless statement (ie. the bible says so so it must be). thinking about it, maybe procreation is more wrong nowdays than sex *not* for procreation - have you seen the world's population problems...?
we're very much moving off topic now though - i'm happy for us to continue this via pm if you'd prefer ray?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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