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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I've started to notice a new trend, at least in america. People are starting to tell their children (and aquantinces, whatever) that there is nothing wrong with homosexuals. They are regular human beings, should be treated like it, and deserve all (well, ok, most) of the rights of a normal human being. Their (children, friends) should treat homosexuals as such.

But said (child/friend/aquantince) should not be a homosexual themselves, b/c it is not ok for them to be homosexual, just, "other people."

Anyone else seeing this? What do you think?

At the very least, I've noticed that it means the kids are still afraid of their own desires.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:quote: quote:
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Frosty, are you attacking my religion or me? It is obvius that you hate Christians so why dont you come out and say it? Your past few posts have done nothing but tell me that. "I hate you Ray because you are a Christian, I hate your God, I have everything about you."
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your religion - you're just taking it personally.

if this is what you believe in then you should be willing and able to defend it. If I state an opinion then I'll be able to back it up - I'm only asking you to do that. If you can't - admit it. Don't make it out to be a personal attack. If you attack something that is apart of me, how is that not attacking me? You attack my religion you are attacking me, you attack my country, you are attacking me, you attack my government, you are attacking me, you attack my people, you attack me. END OF ****ING STORY! Believe me, I will defend myself to the bitter end.

quote: There are a vast number of posts on this thread where you've made quite a point about how you don't hate homosexuals - how you think it's fine that they're in the army etc and you keep saying you don't hate homosexuals

Which equates to "it's fine" right? So there is only hate or acceptance?

No, sorry, I do not hate homosexuals, but I also do not agree with their sexual preferance, this does not mean that I feel they should be treated as outcasts. No they have the same rights as anyone else. I just dont agree with their sexual preferance, that is all.

quote: You've also made quite a point that god doesn't hate homosexuals - but what they do - i.e. "it's fine" - it might be a sin but you're not proactively hating and suggesting they get stoned to death.

i.e. "it's fine, but you have to beg forgiveness for your sins"

I'm not making it up mate - just repeating what you've said.
God, loves all that he created, he hates the sin that his creation relishes in. I do not expect you to understand it.


Sodom was not a hate crime, God is above your judgment.

quote: did you even read the definition of homophobia? go back and read it. heck you even quoted it in this message - check it out. fear OR contempt. to suggest an entire swathe of people (who god created gay) need pity and 'saving' is contempt All mankind needs saved, gay, strait, it doesnt matter all mankind needs saved. You, me, your mom and pop my family. Nobody needs pitty. God is beyond human emotion beyond our cotempt, though God is jelouse and this is hard for alot of people to understand. He loves us so much that He wants the best for us. It is my faith that it is His plans that are the best for us. Sin, in all its form, is not in his plan.

quote: quote:
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However the Bible does teach to love the sinner and to hate the sin. I doubt you truly understand how to do this, because I honestly have trouble with it.
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And that - as we've been saying since very early on - is the new homophobia. No sorry the point from very early on was that people say it is okay to be gay, but not in their family.

God says it is not okay, He says that homosexuality is an abomination, but he loves homosexuals the same as he loves heterosexuals.


Do gay people think themselves so different?

They are this great minority, do they feel that they should be pittied? I dont. I feel that all men were created equal, all men deserve the same chances in life. This does not happen and it is a great tradgity. Nobody deserves to be treated special.

I feel no pitty, no contempt, no hatered, no saddness.

Frosty, you are the one filled with hate, you are the one filled with animosity and contempt. I feel that you are a wretch creature, may you find whatever it is you are looking for. I am sorry though, you will not find it in me, you will not find it in your hatered.

Let go of the hate Frosty, you dont need it.


I have answerd you, why have you not answerd me?

Or do you not have an answer, or are you just an antagonist?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:I find it interesting how you find it easier to attack me than to discuss what true homophobia is.i gave a quote for what homophobia is. comtempt means 'feeling that person or thing is deserving of extreme reproach or scorn'. accusing homosexuals of being immoral and saying they must repent or go to hell for it says to me that you think they deserve extreme reproach - just because you don't think they should be persecuted in life doesn't mean that the belief that they will be damned for it in the afterlife is any better.
discussing your opinions *is* discussing homophobia ray (see later for a better consideration of this).
there was no 'attack' bar my disapproval of your reasoning.

quote:Frosty, are you attacking my religion or me? It is obvius that you hate Christians so why dont you come out and say it? Your past few posts have done nothing but tell me that. "I hate you Ray because you are a Christian, I hate your God, I have everything about you."well done ray. incorrectly paraphrasing someone and accusing them of only expressing hate is an excellent way to calmly debate a subject. gold star mate.

quote:I guess that if you can put words in my mouth, then I can put words in yours. wouldn't it be more sensible to clarify your point than to inflame the issue with childish bullsh*t (sorry but that's how i see those comments).

quote: I do not think homosexuality is fine, why do you think I do? Why do you think Christianity says that homosexuality is fine? Where do you get this rubbish?i realise that you don't think homosexuality is fine (i pick up on things real quick me, i'm like a detective ).

quote: quote: HOMOPHOBIA

NOUN: 1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. 2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

i think your opinion does equate to homophobia ray - as i have said, i do not see any hate or fear in your statements but i do see a large amount of contempt.
Contempt? Why would I, and I mean me personaly not those who translated the Bible, feel contempt for any homosexual? Or better yet why do you feel that I hold contempt? you feel that being gay is wrong and immoral and that if someone does not repent for this 'sin' that they will go to hell. you have stated that the sin (in your estimation, not god's) is on the par with rape and murder. i think that qualifies as contempt - similar to the contempt that murderers and rapists are held in.

quote: quote: excuse me if i misunderstand but if god really did kill the men of sodom for being gay, it has to rate as the largest scale hate crime on record.
if you can give me an example of a more homophobic act, i'll be impressed.
Well... if you truly consider the destruction of Sodom as a hate crime, wouldnt the Flood be an even greater hate crime? I mean what only Noah and his family servived that?!?

The men in Sodom were not killed souly for being gay, I have said that before, but it was a major enough to offend God. Gomorrah, was also destroyed because of its sin, though it really wasnt spoken of too much. I cant answer why.hate crime.
defined as 'any of various crimes... when motivated by hostility to the victim as a member of a group (as one based on color, creed, gender, or sexual orientation).'
the great flood was not a hate crime - it was the largest ever example of genocide though
nowhere does it list the reasons for why god wiped out sodom but the assumption is that as the only factor common to all the men of the city is that they were gay then this is why god killed them all and not just the ones who had committed further sins. their 'sin' was homosexuality and they were killed for it.
hate crime.

quote: quote: according to your definition of christianity, christians should try to emulate jesus, who was the embodiment of god on earth, who was a homophobe!
So your saying that God, is afraid of his own creation? You are truly laughable! well misdirected - as long as you keep making me quote duictionary definitions, you'll never have to actually address the issues i'm raising...
homophobia doesn't just always imply fear!
'fear OR deserving of extreme contempt or scorn'.
god will send a gay person to eternal damnation if they do not stand before him and announce that they are truly sorry for being gay while they were alive. that rates as some heavy ass scorn i reckon. so yes, god is homophobic too it seems.

quote: quote: what does the bible really teach on this issue cos it sure isn't tolerance...? Tolerance? No it doenst teach tolerance per-say.
However the Bible does teach to love the sinner and to hate the sin. I doubt you truly understand how to do this, because I honestly have trouble with it. that's because its almost impossible to do in practice ray - the only character who really got close was jesus (re: judas, the romans etc.).
trying to separate the murderer from the murder, or the rapist from the rape is almost impossible. both of these sins involve harming another human which by definition is without their consent. i don't understand how you can equate this to consentual gay sex?!

quote: quote: once a person begins to think for themselves and question the religious 'authority' they make the move towards their own 'religion'. a religion in this sense of the word is just a set of beliefs. Are you telling me that I should make myself into my own god? i'm suggesting that god doesn't have to be the 'person' that the bible tells you he is. and moreover that the way he wants you to live your life is not neccessarily how the majority of your religion's followers believe you should.
all i'm saying there is i think a heavy dose of 'thinking for yourself' on top of a religion is a far more sensible way to construct moral views than to assume truth in every word of the chosen religious text (aka fundamentalism).

quote: quote: homosexuality does exist in nature. many mammals have been observed to attempt to mate with the same sex - they don't get very far because they don't have sex for pleasure and thus have to give up when they can't find the right bits.
i do not as you suggested 'wish to relate humans to animals' however because humans are not just animals any more - we are on a higher level of conciousness and thus we choose when we have sex, who with and what for. most of the time we have sex not for natural reasons (procreation) but purely because it feels good - remember the observation that in gay sex the persons involved 'do nothing but satisfy their own desires'? - that is against the very fundamentals of nature too. so is all sex for pleasure wrong or not? according to your reasoning it is so if not, why not?

Have you ever seen a dog hump a couch? I think that is proof that it chooses to (humorously at times) attempt to have sex when it wants.and what about apes and monkeys? i know you don't subscribe to evolution so technically there is no connection but you made the animal-human comparison first so don't blame me here.
i said i don't want that comparison - it is you who is using nature as your basis of your standpoint that being gay is wrong. i'm asking if you make that link, why do you not make the rest?

quote:Your trying to mix two different subjects, sex for pleasure and same-sex intercourse. Only one at a time. you were the one who blurred the line. you said:
'It goes against the very fundamentals of nature. If you wish to relate humans to other mammals, the whole purpose of mating is to procreate and extend the life of the species. In this two male species can not accomplish. They do nothing but satisfy their own desires.'
you can replace the same sex act with a heterosexual sex act with contraception and the statement is still 100% correct. with that in mind, can you explain why you consider the two to be different...?


quote: quote: interestingly you completely ignored preambled's observation that in nature animals take multiple partners and commit rape Yes I completely ignored his comment about animals raping other animals and what not, for one reason alone... I didnt see it. Accidents happen bud well i expanded on it in my last post bud. this time you have certainly chosen to avoid attmpting to explain how the analogy is still valid.

quote:I know that some humans like to have their animals get "married" but it just isnt the same things, also dont forget that some animals do mate for life. or is this your clarification?! so then, it's just lobsters (who mate for life) that we should be taking our moral values towards relationships and sexuality from? the rest of the animal kingdom (especially the mammals) take multiple mates throughout their lives - are they less 'natural' than lobsters. what about murder...? any comment on that aspect of the analogy?

quote: quote: why should we only do things that you deem we were 'designed' to do?! we weren't 'designed' to walk upright either but we do. are we doing wrong there too? Where do you get the idea that we were not meant to walk upright? Look at the bone structure of our bodies, Look at hour our head sits on our neck, the curvature of our spines, the very way our feet are shaped. hehe Now that was pulled out of your ass! actually, was pulled it out of darwin's ass. why do we have what a cocyx if we never walked bent over (possibly on all fours) and used a tail?
i know you don't believe in evolution but consider this - i've read and studied the bible (admittedly not for a good few years now) but have you ever done any real study of evolution? if so i'd love to discuss (on another thread) which bits don't make sense to you. i think most prople that have studied it find pretty damn convincing
for anyone that cares, the blind watchmaker by richard dawkins is an excellent introduction to (the neo-darwinism version of) evolution.

going back to your 'we weren't designed to do that so it must be wrong' theory... what about the fact that we were designed to kill (fighting instincts and sharp fangs, both bestowed upon us by god) does that mean killing is right and being gay is wrong? by the same token, is taking an aeroplane a sin? we were never designed to fly...?

quote: quote: i think the other people here's qualm is that you have yet to provide a decent basis for this opinion ray (and yes, i have read everything you have written in this thread, at least twice).
you tried to explain it relating it to nature and that analogy, as we have seen, fails.
the only basis you have given for your opinion as it stands is the bible.
Why do I have to explain my opinion, why dont you tell me why homosexuality is the right thing to do? great way to debate ray: 'lets assume my prejudice is right! now you prove me wrong!'


quote:Is my opinion the reason for this debate or is homophobia? your opinion is the epitomy of the description of the 'new homophobia'.
so yes, the topic of this discussion is directly related to your opinions.


quote: quote: finally you never did mention why you didn't include lesbians in your discussion of homosexuality.
if its the fact that 'they don't have penises at all so its obvious they're not supposed to f*ck' so help me, i may die laughing!
but please do explain...
I didnt include for women to love women because I figure you smart enough to be able to swap out son and father for mother and daughter, man and man for woman and woman. I thought it made sence, I am sorry you disagree. your argument still does not stand - whether it is man and man or woman and woman. your discussion applies equally to heterosexual sex for pleasure as it does for same sex relations. if you can define the defining difference with respect to your argument i will understand.
to recap you said: 'in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that.' this argument makes no distinction between say oral sex and gay sex.

quote:So who wants to tell me why homosexuality is right. I mean other than the phiosiphy; Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! And the philosiphy, if it feels good, do it! 'two adults in a consentual act that affects no-one but the two people involved.'
for any action that can be described by the sentence above i would have trouble understanding where you can see any wrongdoing?


i have already said what i believe this discussion has taught us:

"i think what we've found out is that religion (specifically christianity) perpetuates this 'new homophobia' that was described in the very first post here."

nothing we have said since changes this. you've been asked to explain what basis (other than the teachings of the bible) has brought about your opinion that homosexuality is immoral.
you are flat out refusing to back it up with sensibile arguments and so i don't see why i should spend time writing out retorts to your inflammatory remarks and poorly thought out analogies and comparisons.

if you disagree that you do not fit into the 'new homophobia' description, you are welcome to attempt to explain how your views are different to those described by kyrian.

i won't ask you to explain your views if you don't want to, nor do i expect you to be able to come up with an explanation of why you (other than due to from the teachings of the bible) have chosen to label homosexuals as 'immoral'.

this is my biggest post ever - i'm out of here for today.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:I find it interesting how you find it easier to attack me than to discuss what true homophobia is.i gave a definition of what homophobia is. comtempt means 'feeling that person or thing is deserving of extreme reproach or scorn'. accusing homosexuals of being immoral and saying they must repent or go to hell for it says to me that you think they deserve extreme reproach - just because you don't think they should be persecuted in life doesn't mean that the belief that they will be damned for it in the afterlife is any better.
discussing your opinions *is* discussing homophobia ray (see later for a better consideration of this).
there was no 'attack' bar my disapproval of your reasoning.

quote:Frosty, are you attacking my religion or me? It is obvius that you hate Christians so why dont you come out and say it? Your past few posts have done nothing but tell me that. "I hate you Ray because you are a Christian, I hate your God, I have everything about you."well done ray. incorrectly paraphrasing someone and accusing them of only expressing hate is an excellent way to calmly debate a subject. gold star mate.

quote:I guess that if you can put words in my mouth, then I can put words in yours. wouldn't it be more sensible to clarify your point than to inflame the issue with childish bullsh*t (sorry but that's how i see those comments).

quote: I do not think homosexuality is fine, why do you think I do? Why do you think Christianity says that homosexuality is fine? Where do you get this rubbish?i realise that you don't think homosexuality is fine (i pick up on things real quick me, i'm like a detective ).

quote: quote: HOMOPHOBIA

NOUN: 1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. 2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

i think your opinion does equate to homophobia ray - as i have said, i do not see any hate or fear in your statements but i do see a large amount of contempt.
Contempt? Why would I, and I mean me personaly not those who translated the Bible, feel contempt for any homosexual? Or better yet why do you feel that I hold contempt? you feel that being gay is wrong and immoral and that if someone does not repent for this 'sin' that they will go to hell. you have stated that the sin (in your estimation, not god's) is on the par with rape and murder. i think that qualifies as contempt - similar to the contempt that murderers and rapists are held in.

quote: quote: excuse me if i misunderstand but if god really did kill the men of sodom for being gay, it has to rate as the largest scale hate crime on record.
if you can give me an example of a more homophobic act, i'll be impressed.
Well... if you truly consider the destruction of Sodom as a hate crime, wouldnt the Flood be an even greater hate crime? I mean what only Noah and his family servived that?!?

The men in Sodom were not killed souly for being gay, I have said that before, but it was a major enough to offend God. Gomorrah, was also destroyed because of its sin, though it really wasnt spoken of too much. I cant answer why.hate crime.
defined as 'any of various crimes... when motivated by hostility to the victim as a member of a group (as one based on color, creed, gender, or sexual orientation).'
the great flood was not a hate crime - it was the largest ever example of genocide though
nowhere does it list the reasons for why god wiped out sodom but the assumption is that as the only factor common to all the men of the city is that they were gay then this is why god killed them all and not just the ones who had committed further sins. their 'sin' was homosexuality and they were killed for it.
hate crime.

quote: quote: according to your definition of christianity, christians should try to emulate jesus, who was the embodiment of god on earth, who was a homophobe!
So your saying that God, is afraid of his own creation? You are truly laughable! well misdirected - as long as you keep making me quote duictionary definitions, you'll never have to actually address the issues i'm raising...
homophobia doesn't just always imply fear!
'fear OR deserving of extreme contempt or scorn'.
god will send a gay person to eternal damnation if they do not stand before him and announce that they are truly sorry for being gay while they were alive. that rates as some heavy ass scorn i reckon. so yes, god is homophobic too it seems.

quote: quote: what does the bible really teach on this issue cos it sure isn't tolerance...? Tolerance? No it doenst teach tolerance per-say.
However the Bible does teach to love the sinner and to hate the sin. I doubt you truly understand how to do this, because I honestly have trouble with it. that's because its almost impossible to do in practice ray - the only character who really got close was jesus (re: judas, the romans etc.).
trying to separate the murderer from the murder, or the rapist from the rape is almost impossible. both of these sins involve harming another human which by definition is without their consent. i don't understand how you can equate this to consentual gay sex.

[EDIT]
however, i have to say that this approach to life (although *very* difficult) is commendable. if you really try to live your life this way then taking into account your devotion to your religion, it is the closest you will ever come to accepting homosexuality and if practiced to the letter is practically the same thing.
the problem is the fact that there is the underlying belief that it is a sin; to a gay person you may well come off as 'holier than thou' (no pun intended) as essentially, that is exactly what you believe.
[/EDIT]

quote: quote: once a person begins to think for themselves and question the religious 'authority' they make the move towards their own 'religion'. a religion in this sense of the word is just a set of beliefs. Are you telling me that I should make myself into my own god? i'm suggesting that god doesn't have to be the 'person' that the bible tells you he is. and moreover that the way he wants you to live your life is not neccessarily how the majority of your religion's followers believe you should.
all i'm saying there is i think a heavy dose of 'thinking for yourself' on top of a religion is a far more sensible way to construct moral views than to assume truth in every word of the chosen religious text (aka fundamentalism).

quote: quote: homosexuality does exist in nature. many mammals have been observed to attempt to mate with the same sex - they don't get very far because they don't have sex for pleasure and thus have to give up when they can't find the right bits.
i do not as you suggested 'wish to relate humans to animals' however because humans are not just animals any more - we are on a higher level of conciousness and thus we choose when we have sex, who with and what for. most of the time we have sex not for natural reasons (procreation) but purely because it feels good - remember the observation that in gay sex the persons involved 'do nothing but satisfy their own desires'? - that is against the very fundamentals of nature too. so is all sex for pleasure wrong or not? according to your reasoning it is so if not, why not?

Have you ever seen a dog hump a couch? I think that is proof that it chooses to (humorously at times) attempt to have sex when it wants.and what about apes and monkeys? i know you don't subscribe to evolution so technically there is no connection but you made the animal-human comparison first so don't blame me here dude
i said i didn't want that comparison because it was a poor analogy for this argument - it is you who used 'nature' as your basis of your standpoint that being gay is wrong.
[EDIT]
your dog humping a couch observation does not negate my argument.
[/EDIT]

quote:Your trying to mix two different subjects, sex for pleasure and same-sex intercourse. Only one at a time. you were the one who blurred the line. you said:
'It goes against the very fundamentals of nature. If you wish to relate humans to other mammals, the whole purpose of mating is to procreate and extend the life of the species. In this two male species can not accomplish. They do nothing but satisfy their own desires.'
you can replace the same sex act with a heterosexual sex act with contraception and the statement is still 100% correct. with that in mind, can you explain why you consider the two to be different...?


quote: quote: interestingly you completely ignored preambled's observation that in nature animals take multiple partners and commit rape Yes I completely ignored his comment about animals raping other animals and what not, for one reason alone... I didnt see it. Accidents happen bud well i expanded on it in my last post bud. this time you have certainly chosen to avoid attmpting to explain how the analogy is still valid.

quote:I know that some humans like to have their animals get "married" but it just isnt the same things, also dont forget that some animals do mate for life. or is this your clarification?!
so then, it's just lobsters (who mate for life) that we should be taking our moral values towards relationships and sexuality from?
the rest of the animal kingdom (especially the mammals) take multiple mates throughout their lives - are they less 'natural' than lobsters. what about the food chain which in may cases would equate to murder and cannabalism? any comment on that aspect of the analogy?

quote: quote: why should we only do things that you deem we were 'designed' to do?! we weren't 'designed' to walk upright either but we do. are we doing wrong there too? Where do you get the idea that we were not meant to walk upright? Look at the bone structure of our bodies, Look at hour our head sits on our neck, the curvature of our spines, the very way our feet are shaped. hehe Now that was pulled out of your ass! actually, it was pulled out of darwin's ass. why do we have what a cocyx if we never walked bent over (possibly on all fours) and used a tail?
i know you don't believe in evolution but consider this - i've read and studied the bible (admittedly not for a good few years now) but have you ever done any real study of evolution? if so i'd love to discuss (on another thread) which bits don't make sense to you. i think most prople that have studied it find pretty damn convincing
for anyone that cares, the blind watchmaker by richard dawkins is an excellent introduction to (the neo-darwinism version of) evolution.

going back to your 'we weren't designed to do that so it must be wrong' theory... what about the fact that we were designed to kill (fighting instincts and sharp fangs, both bestowed upon us by god) does that mean killing is right and being gay is wrong by design? and by the same token, is taking a flight on an aeroplane a sin? we were never designed to fly after all...?

quote: quote: i think the other people here's qualm is that you have yet to provide a decent basis for this opinion ray (and yes, i have read everything you have written in this thread, at least twice).
you tried to explain it relating it to nature and that analogy, as we have seen, fails.
the only basis you have given for your opinion as it stands is the bible.
Why do I have to explain my opinion, why dont you tell me why homosexuality is the right thing to do? great way to debate ray: 'lets assume my prejudice is right! now you prove me wrong!'


quote:Is my opinion the reason for this debate or is homophobia? your opinion is the epitomy of the description of the 'new homophobia'.
so yes, the topic of this discussion is directly related to your opinions.


quote: quote: finally you never did mention why you didn't include lesbians in your discussion of homosexuality.
if its the fact that 'they don't have penises at all so its obvious they're not supposed to f*ck' so help me, i may die laughing!
but please do explain...
I didnt include for women to love women because I figure you smart enough to be able to swap out son and father for mother and daughter, man and man for woman and woman. I thought it made sence, I am sorry you disagree. your argument still does not stand - whether it is man and man or woman and woman. your discussion applies equally to heterosexual sex for pleasure as it does for same sex relations. if you can state the defining difference with respect to your argument i will understand.
to recap you said: 'in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that.
[EDIT]
this argument makes no distinction between say oral sex and gay sex - mouths were designed to eat with, not to give pleasure but men and women use them for exactly that (in all combinations of sexual preference).
[/EDIT]

quote:So who wants to tell me why homosexuality is right. I mean other than the phiosiphy; Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! And the philosiphy, if it feels good, do it! 'two adults in a consentual act that affects no-one but the two people involved.'
for any action that can be described by the sentence above i would have trouble understanding where you can see any wrongdoing?


i have already said what i believe this discussion has taught us:

"i think what we've found out is that religion (specifically christianity) perpetuates this 'new homophobia' that was described in the very first post here."

nothing we have said since changes this. you've been asked to explain what basis (other than the teachings of the bible) has brought about your opinion that homosexuality is immoral.
you are flat out refusing to back it up with sensibile arguments and so i don't see why i should spend time writing out retorts to your inflammatory remarks and poorly thought out analogies and comparisons.

[EDIT]
i for one accept the fact that this is what your religion teaches you. i don't like it but then again, i don't have to - just as you don't like homosexuality but don't have to.
it affects my life in no way at all so if this is what you prefer to believe then so be it - it is your life and your choice. unless you try to force your beliefs onto others, there should never be a problem.
i find it quite spooky how this is very similar to your views and attitudes on homosexuality...
[/EDIT]

if you disagree that you do not fit into the 'new homophobia' description, you are welcome to attempt to explain how your views are different to those described by kyrian.
i won't ask you to explain them if you don't want to, as i have just said, nor do i expect you to be able to come up with an explanation of why you (other than due to from the teachings of the bible) have chosen to label homosexuals as 'immoral'. with your religion, you do not need one.

[EDIT]
i tried very hard not to make this too personal man - and even harder to see this from your side. you can see where i have reconsidered my statements from the edits in this post.
i hope you can do the same (see it from a non-religious viewpoint) and we can keep this up without moving away from calm, considered debate.
[/EDIT]

this is my biggest post ever - i'm out of here for today.

[ 08. August 2003, 08:27: Message edited by: coleman ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:lol and you did it twice great post though.

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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BamBam


BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 1810
Posted:A happy BamBam walks in the room and says

Anyone for a beer????


A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.

I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yes please!



"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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preambled


member
Location: auckland

Total posts: 53
Posted:quote:Consensual adult hetero sex is not immoral, however I feel homosexuality is.

Like I have asked before, show me the hate, show me the fear.I'm not going to debate the semantics here. I say homophobia, you say "believing homosexuality is immoral".

This thread is quickly digressing and becoming overly convoluted. Let me re-iterate, in a not-so-concise manner.

My argument is that, outside the scope of religious belief, homosexuality is amoral; it falls outside any moral judgements. It is neither moral nor immoral. Not wrong or right, just like any sexual behaviour between consenting adults.

I feel the need to say this, as well, because I'm unsure that you're clear on it. I have absolutely no problem with your belief that homosexuality is immoral - from a religious standpoint. I don't agree with it, but I accept it. If the Bible told you to believe being black was immoral, I would feel the same way. I wouldn't agree with it, but I would be accepting of it, just as you are of homosexuality. But you have not given me any reason to believe that the same is true outside religion.

That is the crux of the issue here, for me. If the new homophobia existed solely in religious circles I wouldn't be nearly as incensed about it. The fact is, people try to argue this faux "unnatural" idea, which falls to pieces every time I examine it.

Hope this has been informative.



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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by coleman:

the thing that strikes me here is that nowhere in those three quotes (from three different versions of the bible) does it directly say the men were homosexuals - that they wanted to have sex with the two men under lot's care.
Cole, I actually believe that the beating around the bush on the Bible and trying to intepret each and every word to a particular desired meaning is counter-productive. The Bible is pretty clear on the whole "Thou Shalt Not Kill" bit, and yet how many can use that very Book to justify killing? It's no different from people who try to interpret Genesis as actually playing out evolution. That's just not what it says.

Fact is the Bible is quite clear: homosexual acts (not homosexuality) are sins punishable by death. Per the Good Book, being gay is fine, engaging in gay sex is not.

This is simply not an issue for me, though because I don't believe a word of the Bible. And in the USA, that is (still) my right (for now).


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hey, your the only one singling out homosexuals, I am saying everyone is damned to hell not just them. Comprende?


quote: you feel that being gay is wrong and immoral and that if someone does not repent for this 'sin' that they will go to hell. you have stated that the sin (in your estimation, not god's) is on the par with rape and murder. i think that qualifies as contempt - similar to the contempt that murderers and rapists are held in No I feel that all sin is wrong, not just homophobia, so does this mean that I feel comtempt for myself?

quote: nowhere does it list the reasons for why god wiped out sodom but the assumption is that as the only factor common to all the men of the city is that they were gay then this is why god killed them all and not just the ones who had committed further sins. their 'sin' was homosexuality and they were killed for it.
hate crime.
The men were not the only ones to die, no where does it say that all the women and children were gay, no where does it say the animals were gay, yet EVERYTHING was wiped out. Gay, strait they all died. So obviusly it was not an attack designed to souly wipe out homosexuals. Sorry guys calling it a hate crime just doesnt work.

quote: well misdirected - as long as you keep making me quote duictionary definitions, you'll never have to actually address the issues i'm raising...
homophobia doesn't just always imply fear!
'fear OR deserving of extreme contempt or scorn'.
god will send a gay person to eternal damnation if they do not stand before him and announce that they are truly sorry for being gay while they were alive. that rates as some heavy ass scorn i reckon. so yes, god is homophobic too it seems.
God does not scorn or hold in contempt His creation, he loves it so much that he sent his only son to die for it. If that is contempt then please shoot me now!

quote: that's because its almost impossible to do in practice ray - the only character who really got close was jesus (re: judas, the romans etc.).
trying to separate the murderer from the murder, or the rapist from the rape is almost impossible. both of these sins involve harming another human which by definition is without their consent. i don't understand how you can equate this to consentual gay sex?!
Okay, love the sinner and hate the sin, it doesnt say Love the murderer hate the muder or love the homosexual hate the fact that they are with a person of the same sex,

No it involves all sin, lieing, cheating, stealing, screwing your dog, everything!

quote: i'm suggesting that god doesn't have to be the 'person' that the bible tells you he is. and moreover that the way he wants you to live your life is not neccessarily how the majority of your religion's followers believe you should.
So if the majority of my religion jumped off a friggin bridge should I do the same??

quote: all i'm saying there is i think a heavy dose of 'thinking for yourself' on top of a religion is a far more sensible way to construct moral views than to assume truth in every word of the chosen religious text (aka fundamentalism). And you are whom, that you can decide that the Bible is full of lies? If one part of the Bible is false then it is all false. Sorry you cant pick and choose only that which floats your boat. Its like sitting on a picket fence, it just dont work!

quote: i said i don't want that comparison - it is you who is using nature as your basis of your standpoint that being gay is wrong. i'm asking if you make that link, why do you not make the rest?
Show me an animal with the same brain capeablities as man and I will show you a human dressed like an animal.

quote: you were the one who blurred the line. you said:
'It goes against the very fundamentals of nature. If you wish to relate humans to other mammals, the whole purpose of mating is to procreate and extend the life of the species. In this two male species can not accomplish. They do nothing but satisfy their own desires.'
you can replace the same sex act with a heterosexual sex act with contraception and the statement is still 100% correct. with that in mind, can you explain why you consider the two to be different...?
I am sorry you dont see the differance between how two gay people have sex and two strait people. Though granted there are many different positions one can find themselves, gay or strait.

quote: well i expanded on it in my last post bud. this time you have certainly chosen to avoid attmpting to explain how the analogy is still valid. Animals do not think the same as humans, they have sex to mate, a male dog doesnt think, damn she is fine... I am gonna rape that bitch!

quote: if so i'd love to discuss (on another thread) which bits don't make sense to you. i think most prople that have studied it find pretty damn convincing
for anyone that cares, the blind watchmaker by richard dawkins is an excellent introduction to (the neo-darwinism version of) evolution.
Sorry I just dont find a big bang nor primordial ooze convincing.

quote: going back to your 'we weren't designed to do that so it must be wrong' theory... what about the fact that we were designed to kill (fighting instincts and sharp fangs, both bestowed upon us by god) does that mean killing is right and being gay is wrong? by the same token, is taking an aeroplane a sin? we were never designed to fly...? I personall believe that there is a difference in killing, and murder. I feel that murder is wrong, and killing isnt. For the sake of arguments, please lets discuss killing and murder in a different thread or PM me or something.

quote: great way to debate ray: 'lets assume my prejudice is right! now you prove me wrong!'
What predjudice do you speek of? Though you still didnt answer my question. Perhaps you cant.

quote: to recap you said: 'in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that.' this argument makes no distinction between say oral sex and gay sex.
You know you have to wonder who was the first guy to recieve oral sex... how brave/drunk was he?

I dont understand why you dont understand. You have just admitted that men and men and women and women having sex just doesnt physically work, without oral or anul or toys.

quote: 'two adults in a consentual act that affects no-one but the two people involved.'
for any action that can be described by the sentence above i would have trouble understanding where you can see any wrongdoing?
Just because it doesnt do imeadiate harm doesnt mean that its okay.

quote: nothing we have said since changes this. you've been asked to explain what basis (other than the teachings of the bible) has brought about your opinion that homosexuality is immoral.
you are flat out refusing to back it up with sensibile arguments and so i don't see why i should spend time writing out retorts to your inflammatory remarks and poorly thought out analogies and comparisons.
I have backed up my opinion as best I could, if that isnt good enough, then your just going to have to accept that this is how I feel and you are not going to change it. Life is hard... wear a helmate!

Ohh and please, deleate that second post hehe that makes things really really long


Frosty,

quote: My argument is that, outside the scope of religious belief, homosexuality is amoral; it falls outside any moral judgements. It is neither moral nor immoral. Not wrong or right, just like any sexual behaviour between consenting adults That is your opinion, not mine. Tough ninny, get over it.

quote: But you have not given me any reason to believe that the same is true outside religion.
The wonderfull thing here is, I dont have to give you a reason why it is moral outside of religion. If you truly want to play that way, is murder moral, outside of religious text?

quote: That is the crux of the issue here, for me. If the new homophobia existed solely in religious circles I wouldn't be nearly as incensed about it. The fact is, people try to argue this faux "unnatural" idea, which falls to pieces every time I examine it. So your saying that just because the human body isnt desinged to procreate with the same sex however if the same sex still finds a way to have sex and if it feels good, that all is good?

If I walked over to my roommate, and just hauled off and hit him would that be okay? I mean he has pissed me off alot latly and damn I do just want to hit him, I know it would feel good.

By your definition, that is okay. I mean it would feel good so why not do it?


quote: This is simply not an issue for me, though because I don't believe a word of the Bible. And in the USA, that is (still) my right (for now). Mike,
Men and women like me have died and are willing to die so that you can have rights, so you can live in the country and be safe to live your life as you choose. Show some respect man because without them, without us, you wouldnt have any rights.

It is obvius that you dont want anything to do with my country, when do you leave again?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:why's he quoting you and refering to me? most odd. (not unexpected)

anyhow:
quote:That is the crux of the issue here, for me. If the new homophobia existed solely in religious circles I wouldn't be nearly as incensed about it. The fact is, people try to argue this faux "unnatural" idea, which falls to pieces every time I examine it.I reckon it is at the core of it though. so much of the world around us, certainly in Europe, America and Australia(? i think) is built up from and on christianity. it's mores and morals are the building blocks of our laws and people's deeply ingrained beliefs

look at how many people jump if you use "jesus ****ing christ!" as a swear when you next twat yourself with a heavy poi

before christianity arrived on these shores there was no mass-homophobia

now many of us wouldn't claim to be christian - but i bet we still say "please god" and the like - it's all too deeply ingrained

and part of that is christianity's little opinion of what's moral and immoral. not that it's all bollocks and should all be cast out - but some of it is certainly utter twoddle

but it gives folk reason to feel this new homophobia

that's wot i reckon anyways - i can't find/see any other source of it these days


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:ray - i'll delete the first post if you like - i made some edits to the second one last night so i left both up so everyone could see what i changed. if it's not needed i'll take it out?

i realised later that that was post 1500 for me - by pure coincidence it was my longest post ever too


right, here we go...

quote:And you are whom, that you can decide that the Bible is full of lies? If one part of the Bible is false then it is all false. Sorry you cant pick and choose only that which floats your boat. Its like sitting on a picket fence, it just dont work!the bible says, explicitly 'thou shalt not kill'.
but then you say:

quote:I personall believe that there is a difference in killing, and murder. I feel that murder is wrong, and killing isnt. For the sake of arguments, please lets discuss killing and murder in a different thread or PM me or something. i think that qualifies as 'picking and choosing what floats your boat' dude.
the bible is not ambiguous over this issue murder is just killing under a particular set of circumstances defined by humans.
killing is still killing. period.
sorry but beyond your glaring contradiction here i don't think i want to discuss this at all.
a righteous killing is a misnomer as far as i'm concerned.

quote:So if the majority of my religion jumped off a friggin bridge should I do the same?? of course not - but now you're thinking!
now extend that attitude of independent thought to the teachings of the bible (like you have already with 'thou shalt not kill') and you're well on your way to making your own moral judgements on all kinds of issues

quote:I am sorry you dont see the differance between how two gay people have sex and two strait people. Though granted there are many different positions one can find themselves, gay or strait. have you never had sex without vaginal penetration then ray - without that is the act unnatural? if you remove penetration from the equation, the sex had by gay and straight people would be i imagine, virtually indistinguishable.
if i understand correctly, your argument is that sex with no chance of procreation is unnatural and a sin?

i'm a little confused on one issue still though - is it sodomy that is the sin (so straight people can sin just as easily as gay people) or is just being gay a sin in itself? or is it both?
i'm not trying to point out anything here - i just don't know exactly what the bible says on the issue of the backdoor.

quote:Sorry I just dont find a big bang nor primordial ooze convincing. you don't have to believe in either of those things to see evidence of cumulative natural selection all around us. but if you're not interested in challenging your preconceptions (or 'the book of genesis' as you might prefer to call them ) then don't look any further.
it just means that our arguments based on 'what we were designed to do' is at an end because fundamentally, we believe different things - you believe god created us as we are and i believe we evolved from lower species. another case of agreeing to disagree methinks.

quote:So your saying that just because the human body isnt desinged to procreate with the same sex however if the same sex still finds a way to have sex and if it feels good, that all is good?

If I walked over to my roommate, and just hauled off and hit him would that be okay? I mean he has pissed me off alot latly and damn I do just want to hit him, I know it would feel good. now i know they go together on tv a lot ray but contrary to your belief, sex and violence are not the same thing.
to be frank i think that comparison is truly ridiculous.
in consentual sex (gay or straight), two people do things to make both themselves and each other feel good - you are comparing that to harming another individual for your personal gratification? i find that a little scary...

compare heterosexual sodomy and oral sex to gay sodomy and oral sex and again i ask where the difference lies?
seriously, if your attitude to sex is not 'do what feels good', if all you have sex for is procreation then i'm glad i don't have your sex life man!

quote:Just because it doesnt do imeadiate harm doesnt mean that its okay. please clarify - you are suggesting there is harm done to other people in the long term by two gay people having a relationship. please define the problems you believe it will cause, whether immediate or long term.


quote:It is obvius that you dont want anything to do with my countryjust because you are willing to kill for it doesn't mean the country belongs to you ray. i think when talking to another american the correct term would be 'our country'...? maybe i'm wrong though (i haven't read the constitution lately) - tell ya what, show me your reciept and i'll believe america is yours more than it is mike's


oh, and the two excellent points raised by preambled that you ignored were:

quote:My argument is that, outside the scope of religious belief, homosexuality is amoral; it falls outside any moral judgements. It is neither moral nor immoral. Not wrong or right, just like any sexual behaviour between consenting adults. quote:If the Bible told you to believe being black was immoral, I would feel the same way. I wouldn't agree with it, but I would be accepting of it, just as you are of homosexuality. But you have not given me any reason to believe that the same is true outside religion.i don't blame you for avoiding those though - they're pretty hard to argue against.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:quote: before christianity arrived on these shores there was no mass-homophobia Hahahahaha WTF is this??

What shroes are refering to, where in the hell were you... hahaha WTF??

Your insaine! How long ago did Christianity arrive on what shores? How old were you? Were you even alive, if not how in the friggin world do you know how things were? My word I have never read anything so damn funny.


Now, I am going to try to be polite here, Frosty, you are a moron! I'm not just calling you names, I mean it.

You have no basis for what your saying, your just trying to put down something that you dont understand.

Its your opinion and thats all you, but man you chastise me for my beliefs then you try to speek on them as if you know what your talking about.

I am just shocked to see how blatently absurd you can be.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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BamBam


BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 1810
Posted:BamBam runs under a desk for cover before shouting

Does anyone know what time it is?????

Yes that's right it's Pimms o'clock

Anyone????

Do you think anyone noticed that I went off topic??

Bammy


A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.

I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:now you're just being f*ckin rude ray.
just becasue you think someone's opinions are extreme and unfounded doesn't give you the right to be an abusive arsehole.
i think the same about some of your opinions but i don't resort to calling you absurd, insane and a moron.

you accuse people of 'attacking' you all the time and then come out with some shit like that?!

if you disagree with frosty and think he's talking bullshit, challenge his statements and ask him to give references. at the worst say something like 'i believe your opinions are baseless. i choose to ignore them unitl you can provide a basis for your 'facts' on homophobia and the effect religion has had on it.'.

posts like your last one will always be counter-productive.

[bams: fancy a lunchtime drink again then...? you know what happened last time though ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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BamBam


BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 1810
Posted:There was a debate going on here (which I for one found very interesting) but now it seems to have digressed to personal attacks...... hardly the work of adults.

Come on guys keep it clean ehhh

Cole: I'm skipping my lunch hour so that I can leave early... me is seeing the most beautiful woman in the world tonight mummy

Bammy


A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.

I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:wicked


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:So what your saying Coleman, is that its okay for you and Frosty to attack me, but when I go on the offensive it's rude?

Do you always hold this kind of double standerd?


Okay back to a debate.


Frosty, What shores are you talking about? How long ago?

Coleman, damn I missed your post again We are going to have to work on our timing Congrats on 1500

Okay...

quote: the bible says, explicitly 'thou shalt not kill'.
but then you say:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personall believe that there is a difference in killing, and murder. I feel that murder is wrong, and killing isnt. For the sake of arguments, please lets discuss killing and murder in a different thread or PM me or something.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i think that qualifies as 'picking and choosing what floats your boat' dude.
the bible is not ambiguous over this issue murder is just killing under a particular set of circumstances defined by humans.
killing is still killing. period.
sorry but beyond your glaring contradiction here i don't think i want to discuss this at all.
a righteous killing is a misnomer as far as i'm concerned.
Okay, I'll send you a PM on this one if its cool with you man, this just isnt the place for this discussion.

quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if the majority of my religion jumped off a friggin bridge should I do the same??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

of course not - but now you're thinking!
now extend that attitude of independent thought to the teachings of the bible (like you have already with 'thou shalt not kill') and you're well on your way to making your own moral judgements on all kinds of issues I already make my own judgments on morality, I choose to agree with the Bible.

quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am sorry you dont see the differance between how two gay people have sex and two strait people. Though granted there are many different positions one can find themselves, gay or strait.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

have you never had sex without vaginal penetration then ray - without that is the act unnatural? if you remove penetration from the equation, the sex had by gay and straight people would be i imagine, virtually indistinguishable.
if i understand correctly, your argument is that sex with no chance of procreation is unnatural and a sin?
No, I have not. Sex between gay and strait people is quite distinguishable. Maybe the fact that there are either two men or two women having sex instead of a man and a woman just escapes you.

quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I just dont find a big bang nor primordial ooze convincing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you don't have to believe in either of those things to see evidence of cumulative natural selection all around us. but if you're not interested in challenging your preconceptions (or 'the book of genesis' as you might prefer to call them ) then don't look any further.
it just means that our arguments based on 'what we were designed to do' is at an end because fundamentally, we believe different things - you believe god created us as we are and i believe we evolved from lower species. another case of agreeing to disagree methinks.
There is not one scientific explination of the creation of earth, that can not be disproven using science. However, science can not disprove the Bibles explination of the Creation of existance.

Personally I feel it takes more faith to believe in any form of evoloution than it does to believe in Creation.

quote: now i know they go together on tv a lot ray but contrary to your belief, sex and violence are not the same thing.
to be frank i think that comparison is truly ridiculous.
in consentual sex (gay or straight), two people do things to make both themselves and each other feel good You are right, that in both strait and gay sex two (or more ) people are doing something for pleasure.

What I was refering to was that just because it feels good, it doesnt make it right. It may feel good to haul off on my roommate, but it doesnt mean that it is right. Do you see my connection?

quote: compare heterosexual sodomy and oral sex to gay sodomy and oral sex and again i ask where the difference lies?
seriously, if your attitude to sex is not 'do what feels good', if all you have sex for is procreation then i'm glad i don't have your sex life man! By definition oral sex is sodomy, and no you dont want my sex life. I am satisfied with it, but I would call it a safe bet that the majority of the world wouldnt be.

quote: please clarify - you are suggesting there is harm done to other people in the long term by two gay people having a relationship. please define the problems you believe it will cause, whether immediate or long term Well... yes and no. Physically, there may not be, but perhaps you should ask Mike about the risks of STDs. Here is a fact for you, a hole in a condom, may not lead to the condom breaking, but it can still lead to the spread of the HIV virus. Think of it this way, take a tractor tire (thats the hole in the condom) take a golfball (the HIV virus)... how easy would it be for you to throw that golfball through the tire?

I am sure Mike can go into more detail about the spread of things like syphulis and what not.

Now I am not saying that every homosexual will get an STD, but I am sure that Mike can provide the evidence that there is a higher rate of STDs in gay couples than in strait, in cases where it was actually transmitted through sex and not the shareing of needles and what not.

Harm to others, unfortunatly not all families will support a gay family member. It may be cruel and wrong but it may just hurt the family.

quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is obvius that you dont want anything to do with my country
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

just because you are willing to kill for it doesn't mean the country belongs to you ray. i think when talking to another american the correct term would be 'our country'...? maybe i'm wrong though (i haven't read the constitution lately) - tell ya what, show me your reciept and i'll believe america is yours more than it is mike's
I am also willing to die for it, are you willing to die for yours.

Mike has repeatedly said about his disgust for America and its government (no matter who is in office). Now this is my opinion and is not law, but I believe that in order to truly call yourself a member of a country you must have some loyalty to it. Going off of what Mike has said in the past, he has no loyalty.

Granted this is only my opinion.


quote: oh, and the two excellent points raised by preambled that you ignored were: Do I have to answer everything?

quote: My argument is that, outside the scope of religious belief, homosexuality is amoral; it falls outside any moral judgements. It is neither moral nor immoral. Not wrong or right, just like any sexual behaviour between consenting adults. If morality is based souly on religion then I would agree with you. Even without religion I do not agree with homosexuality. Honestly I dont know how to explain it any other way. It is just my opinion and your just going to have to suck it up and live with it!


quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the Bible told you to believe being black was immoral, I would feel the same way. I wouldn't agree with it, but I would be accepting of it, just as you are of homosexuality. But you have not given me any reason to believe that the same is true outside religion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So now in order for you to accept my opinion I must explain it to you? Sorry, but your just going to have to live with the fact that I do not view homosexuality as moral, propper, right, okay, fine or any other positive word. I think it is wrong, with or without religion. Explain it... I dont have to, its just that simple. It is my opnion not yours I have to deal with it, you dont. Therefore I dont have to explain it. Who are you to demand an explination from me?


Sorry I didnt answer that sooner, lifes so tough isnt it?


So prove to me that homosexuality is right.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hey Coleman empty your mailbox so I can PM you about murder and killing and what not...

I'll delete this when I send you the PM


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:first of all; quote:So what your saying Coleman, is that its okay for you and Frosty to attack me, but when I go on the offensive it's rude?

Do you always hold this kind of double standerd?i didn't think i had attacked you ray (prior to my reaction to your 'insult frosty' post). i have tried my very best to keep this discussion as impersonal as it can be. i have challenged your views and opinions, as you have mine but i was not aware i had personally 'attacked' you.
if i did, i am sorry.
your post directed at frosty was mostly taken up with insults in the middle of a thread what was becoming a very measured discussion - that's the difference that upset me.


i'll wait for your pm but i still don't see how you can think you are not contradicting yourself when you say "i take every word of the bible as true. it says 'thou shalt not kill' but i say murder is wrong, killing is not."
now that is a double standard

on a similar note you asked if i am willing to die for my country? i would say i am willing to die to protect the way of life that i choose. however i am neither willing to kill or be killed on behalf of a 'leader' i didn't vote for and don't trust.
i'm not sure if i still qualify as a good citizen with that opinion but i don't plan to only ever reside in this country anyway - i see very few scenarios in which i would put myself in the position to die for any country.

but at last we've got to the basis of your religion independent 'being gay is bad' viewpoint...

quote: Well... yes and no. Physically, there may not be, but perhaps you should ask Mike about the risks of STDs. Here is a fact for you, a hole in a condom, may not lead to the condom breaking, but it can still lead to the spread of the HIV virus. Think of it this way, take a tractor tire (thats the hole in the condom) take a golfball (the HIV virus)... how easy would it be for you to throw that golfball through the tire?

I am sure Mike can go into more detail about the spread of things like syphulis and what not.

Now I am not saying that every homosexual will get an STD, but I am sure that Mike can provide the evidence that there is a higher rate of STDs in gay couples than in strait, in cases where it was actually transmitted through sex and not the shareing of needles and what not.
i don't need a patronising analogy of holes in condoms and the size of the hiv virus cheers mate that same condom with the hole in same sex intercourse will still spread hiv.
yes, std's are more prevalent in the gay community, but this point is invalid as it only hurts the people involved in the sex.
check the original context here:

quote: quote:

'two adults in a consentual act that affects no-one but the two people involved.'
for any action that can be described by the sentence above i would have trouble understanding where you can see any wrongdoing?

Just because it doesnt do imeadiate harm doesnt mean that its okay. still you have yet to show how it causes harm to anyone but the two people involved.

quote: Harm to others, unfortunatly not all families will support a gay family member. It may be cruel and wrong but it may just hurt the family. this is what the new homophobia is all about!
ray - if someone is gay and they come out to their family and someone in that family is intolerent/prejudiced/bigoted towards homosexuality and it hurts the family, it is *that* person's fault. it is the intolerance of homosexuality that creates the problem, not the fact that someone in the family is gay.

you could say the same thing about mixed race relationships - some people are bigoted and will not be happy with a mixed race marriage in their family - if the family suffers it is the racist's fault, not the couple in love.


quote: I already make my own judgments on morality, I choose to agree with the Bible. okay i was just trying to point out that like your choice to disagree with 'thou shalt not kill', you could choose to have views on other issues that contradict what the bible teaches.
fair enough if you'd rather just keep it to one of the commandments.

quote:There is not one scientific explination of the creation of earth, that can not be disproven using science. However, science can not disprove the Bibles explination of the Creation of existance.

Personally I feel it takes more faith to believe in any form of evoloution than it does to believe in Creation.
to coin one of your terms ray - you pulled that straight out of your ass (even though it's arse )!
here's a nice start - try and explain where all the fossils we've found (including the dinosaurs) fit into the bible's timeline...
and to ignore the evidence of cumulative natural selection you have to shut your eyes very, very tightly. i think from these comments it is evident that by choosing to believe in genesis you have likewise chosen to dismiss any other theories, no matter how little you have looked into them.
the evidence for evolution is overwhelming - if you don't agree then you blatently haven't studied the subject any more than skimming the basic premise.
imho, the likelihood that women were created from a man's rib and then got 'knowledge' by eating an apple from a forbidden tree (damning the race in the process) because a snake told her to do it is pretty low.

quote:So prove to me that homosexuality is right.the bible has more incest in it than any other book i've read (that bit in genesis(?) where there's just loads of 'beagatting' is enough by itself!). i don't believe incest is right - do you?
i don't think anyone has to prove homosexulaity is 'right' either as i too believe this it is amoral - or to be more vague and cryptic, 'it just is'.
for example, its similar to saying prove procreation is right. its pretty hard to do without making a baseless statement (ie. the bible says so so it must be). thinking about it, maybe procreation is more wrong nowdays than sex *not* for procreation - have you seen the world's population problems...?

we're very much moving off topic now though - i'm happy for us to continue this via pm if you'd prefer ray?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Okay... hehe

quote: i didn't think i had attacked you ray (prior to my reaction to your 'insult frosty' post). i have tried my very best to keep this discussion as impersonal as it can be. i have challenged your views and opinions, as you have mine but i was not aware i had personally 'attacked' you.
if i did, i am sorry.
You have however attacked me in the past, maybe not this post.

quote: i'll wait for your pm but i still don't see how you can think you are not contradicting yourself when you say "i take every word of the bible as true. it says 'thou shalt not kill' but i say murder is wrong, killing is not."
now that is a double standard
Dont worry about it, you'll see my reasoning, just cean out your mailbox.

quote: on a similar note you asked if i am willing to die for my country? i would say i am willing to die to protect the way of life that i choose. however i am neither willing to kill or be killed on behalf of a 'leader' i didn't vote for and don't trust.
i'm not sure if i still qualify as a good citizen with that opinion but i don't plan to only ever reside in this country anyway - i see very few scenarios in which i would put myself in the position to die for any country.
Lets leave this one for a different post, or a pm... start one if you want (Just trying to keep things on topic)

quote: quote:
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Harm to others, unfortunatly not all families will support a gay family member. It may be cruel and wrong but it may just hurt the family.
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this is what the new homophobia is all about!
ray - if someone is gay and they come out to their family and someone in that family is intolerent/prejudiced/bigoted towards homosexuality and it hurts the family, it is *that* person's fault. it is the intolerance of homosexuality that creates the problem, not the fact that someone in the family is gay.
Your right that the blame doesnt fall with the gay person, it falls with the family member, however if the person was not gay then the situation wouldnt be, also if the family member would be more tollerant, then the situation wouldnt exist.

The point was, pain was felt by someone else, blame wasnt part of the orriginal question. I was just asked to give an example of how it might hurt someone else. That I did.

quote: you could say the same thing about mixed race relationships - some people are bigoted and will not be happy with a mixed race marriage in their family - if the family suffers it is the racist's fault, not the couple in love.
Your right man, I never said it was right or fair, but you cant deny that it happens. It shouldnt happen, but once again I was asked for an example and I gave it, blame wasnt part of the question.

quote: quote:
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I already make my own judgments on morality, I choose to agree with the Bible.
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okay i was just trying to point out that like your choice to disagree with 'thou shalt not kill', you could choose to have views on other issues that contradict what the bible teaches.
fair enough if you'd rather just keep it to one of the commandments.
You'll understand this later when you read my PM.

quote: quote:
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There is not one scientific explination of the creation of earth, that can not be disproven using science. However, science can not disprove the Bibles explination of the Creation of existance.

Personally I feel it takes more faith to believe in any form of evoloution than it does to believe in Creation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to coin one of your terms ray - you pulled that straight out of your ass (even though it's arse )!
here's a nice start - try and explain where all the fossils we've found (including the dinosaurs) fit into the bible's timeline...
and to ignore the evidence of cumulative natural selection you have to shut your eyes very, very tightly. i think from these comments it is evident that by choosing to believe in genesis you have likewise chosen to dismiss any other theories, no matter how little you have looked into them.
the evidence for evolution is overwhelming - if you don't agree then you blatently haven't studied the subject any more than skimming the basic premise.
imho, the likelihood that women were created from a man's rib and then got 'knowledge' by eating an apple from a forbidden tree (damning the race in the process) because a snake told her to do it is pretty low.
I am no umm... archiologist (if thats spelled right I want a million dollars!) I'll tell you this much... I need your help here, pretend for a minute that you believe as Christians believe, would it not be possible for a God who created everything to create and destroy something like the dinousaurs? Why were dinousaurs like the T-rex and what not wiped out? Did you read about Noah taking them on the ark?

I know I am using my religion to answer your questions and you will probably laugh at me, but like I said I am not someone who has studied fossles.

I know that some teath were found that "looked" human, bone fragments things that would not hold up in court, IE purly speculation. You do the research and find me where someone found a complete skeleton of these prehistoric men.

quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So prove to me that homosexuality is right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the bible has more incest in it than any other book i've read (that bit in genesis(?) where there's just loads of 'beagatting' is enough by itself!). i don't believe incest is right - do you?
i don't think anyone has to prove homosexulaity is 'right' either as i too believe this it is amoral - or to be more vague and cryptic, 'it just is'.
for example, its similar to saying prove procreation is right. its pretty hard to do without making a baseless statement (ie. the bible says so so it must be). thinking about it, maybe procreation is more wrong nowdays than sex *not* for procreation - have you seen the world's population problems...?

we're very much moving off topic now though - i'm happy for us to continue this via pm if you'd prefer ray?
hehe umm procreation is reproduction, if it isnt right why are we here?

Personally I am from New Mexico... Land of a billion cows! Well not really, but I would say you could fit a few million people in New Mexico. I dont see a population problem. Some areas just have tighter living conditions, there is pleanty of space left on the planet.


The Bible has alot of incest, so? Show me a passage where it says it says that incest is okay?

If I looked I bet I couuld find a website that shows fimls of people being raped, does that mean its okay? Just becuase soemthing is talked about, doesnt make it right!


If you dont think that people should prove homosexuality right, why are you asking me to prove it wrong?

Thats called double standerd.


If your mailbox is cleaned out, I'll PM that too you


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:*shakes Coleman*

Dude! Clean out your PM box so I can send this!! I have tried 3 times now!


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Posted:quote:The wonderfull thing here is, I dont have to give you a reason why it is moral outside of religion. If you truly want to play that way, is murder moral, outside of religious text?You don't have to do anything. I thought you might want to. We are discussing the new homophobia, right? I am seeking reasons for its existence outside of a religious context. When I saw you post your viewpoint that it is immoral outside of biblical reasoning, I wanted to discuss that with you.

Murder is immoral in the eyes of, I would guess, approximately 99% of the world, because I can only imagine the occasional murderer thinking their actions justified. Seeking a comparison between murder and sexuality is absurd, however. The outcome of murder is the death of a person. The outcome of homosexuality, in your view, is what? Again, I suggest that all consentual human sexuality is amoral. I'd love to hear your reasoning as to why you disagree.

I get the feeling you believe homosexuality is harmful in some way. If so, please elaborate. The supposed increased risk in STD transmission is no argument - if you are going to suggest homosexuality is immoral because it is merely more dangerous than heterosexuality, then you would have to stop the entire world engaging in sexual relations, thus preventing the spread of any STD.

I do not mean to put words in your mouth there - I'm only speculating.

quote:If I walked over to my roommate, and just hauled off and hit him would that be okay? I mean he has pissed me off alot latly and damn I do just want to hit him, I know it would feel good.

By your definition, that is okay. I mean it would feel good so why not do it?No, by my definition that is most definitely not ok. I am not promoting blatant hedonism. The difference between you hitting someone and two persons of the same sex sharing intimacy is vast. One involves hurt. If your roommate was begging you to hit him - that would be different. Once more I feel that these comparisons suggest that you feel homosexuality is harmful - how so?


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:quote: You don't have to do anything. I thought you might want to. We are discussing the new homophobia, right? I am seeking reasons for its existence outside of a religious context. When I saw you post your viewpoint that it is immoral outside of biblical reasoning, I wanted to discuss that with you. Well... you know I did want to discuss it, but since I started getting attacked... hrm let me give you an example of what I mean.

This was kindly said by Soldari

quote: You Phule!

Have you ever thought for a minute that God isn't the one who wrote the Bible*, and that these are stories, not History, and that in reality God never punished people (except the people who beleived they where being punished by God, but that's an entirely different story). It's been acknowledged and all...

Ya well... when I start recieving comments like that I stop wanting to debate and then go on the deffencive.


quote: I am seeking reasons for its existence outside of a religious context. When I saw you post your viewpoint that it is immoral outside of biblical reasoning, I wanted to discuss that with you I have said my piece on it, as far as I am concered there is nothing to discuss.

quote: Seeking a comparison between murder and sexuality is absurd, however. The outcome of murder is the death of a person. The outcome of homosexuality, in your view, is what? The outcome for an unrepented homosexual is eternal death. In my opinion.

quote: Again, I suggest that all consentual human sexuality is amoral. I'd love to hear your reasoning as to why you disagree.
Outside of marrage, it is immoral, between two members of the same sex, it is immoral. Why do I believe this, I turn once again to my religion.

quote:I get the feeling you believe homosexuality is harmful in some way. If so, please elaborate. I allready have, go back and read.


quote: I do not mean to put words in your mouth there - I'm only speculating. Dont speculate, pretend your a lawyer in a court, speculation just doent hold up. (I anit bitchin at you, just a suggestion)

quote: No, by my definition that is most definitely not ok. I am not promoting blatant hedonism. The difference between you hitting someone and two persons of the same sex sharing intimacy is vast. One involves hurt. If your roommate was begging you to hit him - that would be different. Okay... it was a streatch of "if it feels good do it" but still why should you say its cool for one case and not for another?

quote: Once more I feel that these comparisons suggest that you feel homosexuality is harmful - how so? Once again, I have given two reasons, go back and read. I am not going to give any more, if that explination isnt sufficiant, I suggest that you use your own brain to think of some, or talk to other people.


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Posted:quote:Outside of marrage, it is immoral, between two members of the same sex, it is immoral. Why do I believe this, I turn once again to my religion.Oh. You see, at one point in this conversation, you said..

quote:If a man loves another man as if he would want to take that man as a mate (bride just wouldnt be the right word there), that is wrong. Why is it wrong, with out using the Bible, in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that... and I thought by saying that you were providing your reasons for feeling that homosexuality is immoral outside a religious scope (which is what you were asked to do). It appears that you were merely setting the bible aside though, not your religious beliefs.

So, really, we have nothing to talk about. I accept that you believe homosexuality is immoral, because you believe it purely from a religious standing.

quote:Okay... it was a streatch of "if it feels good do it" but still why should you say its cool for one case and not for another?Well, you've already answered this for me. You believe religiously that the outcome of homosexuality is negative. If I believed the same as you, I would agree that both hitting your roommate and homosexual activity were immoral.

quote:I am not going to give any more, if that explination isnt sufficiant, I suggest that you use your own brain to think of some, or talk to other people.Gee, thanks, I guess I'll try to engage my brain some.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:quote:
posted 09 August, 2003 01:58
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quote:
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Outside of marrage, it is immoral, between two members of the same sex, it is immoral. Why do I believe this, I turn once again to my religion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh. You see, at one point in this conversation, you said..


quote:
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If a man loves another man as if he would want to take that man as a mate (bride just wouldnt be the right word there), that is wrong. Why is it wrong, with out using the Bible, in my opinion man and man were never physically designed to love eachother like that.
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So what your saying is that everytime I mention one reason I dont agree with something, I have to mention every other reason as well? It agrivates me that you just cant put two and two together.

quote: .. and I thought by saying that you were providing your reasons for feeling that homosexuality is immoral outside a religious scope (which is what you were asked to do). It appears that you were merely setting the bible aside though, not your religious beliefs.
Actually I was asked to do with out the Bible. Either way I have listed my reasons, what difference does it make? What are your reasons for saying its right?

quote: quote:
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Okay... it was a streatch of "if it feels good do it" but still why should you say its cool for one case and not for another?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, you've already answered this for me. You believe religiously that the outcome of homosexuality is negative. If I believed the same as you, I would agree that both hitting your roommate and homosexual activity were immoral.
The "if it feels good, do it" theory isnt about morality.

quote: quote:
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I am not going to give any more, if that explination isnt sufficiant, I suggest that you use your own brain to think of some, or talk to other people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee, thanks, I guess I'll try to engage my brain some. Why should I give you all the answers to life? Why should I be asked to explain myself, when you dodge my questions asking you to explain yourself. Not one of you has told me why homosexuality is fine. Sorry but "it dont hurt nobody" just doesnt cut it. 9 times out of 10 drug use doesnt hurt anybody but the user, it doesnt make it right.
If you really want to know the effects I am sure you can find them on the net or Mike can tell us.


Coleman... please empty that inbox of yours!


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Posted:quote:So what your saying is that everytime I mention one reason I dont agree with something, I have to mention every other reason as well? It agrivates me that you just cant put two and two together.... Um, no? Where did i say that? You don't have to patronise me, either. I was saying exactly what I said, maybe you're reading too much into my responses.

quote:What are your reasons for saying its right?I don't have any, because as I've said several times now, I don't think it's right or wrong. Amoral. If you want my reasoning for why I believe that, feel free to ask.

quote:The "if it feels good, do it" theory isnt about morality.Ok, what is it about then?

quote:Why should I give you all the answers to life?You haven't given me any. I am merely curious about the logic you use to arrive at your conclusions regarding the immorality of homosexuality. I think we're just about done, now that it's established as purely spiritual reasoning. (Do you agree?)

quote:Why should I be asked to explain myself, when you dodge my questions asking you to explain yourself. Not one of you has told me why homosexuality is fine.I've just done that (partially, at least) above. I wasn't aware that I'd sidestepped any other questions. Please ask me them again if that is the case.

quote:Sorry but "it dont hurt nobody" just doesnt cut it. 9 times out of 10 drug use doesnt hurt anybody but the user, it doesnt make it right.I would say that "it dont hurt nobody" and "doesnt hurt anybody but the user" are two entirely different things. I'm also completely in support of careful drug use by informed adults. Just wondering, do you consider alcohol to be a drug?

quote:If you really want to know the effects I am sure you can find them on the net or Mike can tell us.Effects of what? Drug use? Do you mean statistics on fatalities or something? Sorry, not certain what this is in reference to!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:I have explained myself as much as I am willing to. Your just going to have to go at it alone from here. Unless you actually have something constructive to add... then I will be more than happy to keep debating.

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Unless you actually have something constructive to add... then I will be more than happy to keep debating. Unless I have something constructive to add?

... No, you know what, I'm quite happy not debating with someone who acts in such a condescending manner.



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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


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Posted:*laughs and adds a little check mark next to his name* Ray 1 HOP 0



Thank you


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Dentrassi
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Dentrassi

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Posted:Wow!! i think we should change the topic name to 'The Smoking Keyboards.' i was sure i saw a triple quote somewhere, where someone was quoting someone else who was quoting the original person who was quoting someone else....ahhh my brain hurts!

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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