Forums > Social Chat > The new homophobia
Login/Join to ParticipateDreamer
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
4,308 posts
Location: York, England
Posted:
I've started to notice a new trend, at least in america. People are starting to tell their children (and aquantinces, whatever) that there is nothing wrong with homosexuals. They are regular human beings, should be treated like it, and deserve all (well, ok, most) of the rights of a normal human being. Their (children, friends) should treat homosexuals as such.
But said (child/friend/aquantince) should not be a homosexual themselves, b/c it is not ok for them to be homosexual, just, "other people."
Anyone else seeing this? What do you think?
At the very least, I've noticed that it means the kids are still afraid of their own desires.
I've started to notice a new trend, at least in america. People are starting to tell their children (and aquantinces, whatever) that there is nothing wrong with homosexuals. They are regular human beings, should be treated like it, and deserve all (well, ok, most) of the rights of a normal human being. Their (children, friends) should treat homosexuals as such.
But said (child/friend/aquantince) should not be a homosexual themselves, b/c it is not ok for them to be homosexual, just, "other people."
Anyone else seeing this? What do you think?
At the very least, I've noticed that it means the kids are still afraid of their own desires.
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Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Interesting. The "New International Version" seems like an interpretation of a Bible by a particular group, and a very conservative group. It uses simplier language than the original bible to be more accessible. Fine in theory, but they seems to interpret things differently to how other people might interpret them. I fail to see hoe "to know them" equates to "bugger them".
I still don't get what you mean by choosing your romantic partners. Surely you don't conciously choose who you fall in love with. I don't and can't meet somebody and think "I'm going to fall in love with you" and you can't force yourself to love somebody you don't.
Anyway, I'm off on holiday now. Bye!
Interesting. The "New International Version" seems like an interpretation of a Bible by a particular group, and a very conservative group. It uses simplier language than the original bible to be more accessible. Fine in theory, but they seems to interpret things differently to how other people might interpret them. I fail to see hoe "to know them" equates to "bugger them".
I still don't get what you mean by choosing your romantic partners. Surely you don't conciously choose who you fall in love with. I don't and can't meet somebody and think "I'm going to fall in love with you" and you can't force yourself to love somebody you don't.
Anyway, I'm off on holiday now. Bye!
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Dom, the second you meet someone, your in love with them?
I dont know about you, but when I meet someone there is some form of a attraciton. I'm not in love with them, but at some time you choose the relationship, or choose 50% of it.
Dom, the second you meet someone, your in love with them?
I dont know about you, but when I meet someone there is some form of a attraciton. I'm not in love with them, but at some time you choose the relationship, or choose 50% of it.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Ray, interestingly, the wording in the KJV was actually considered to be formal and "old-fashioned" at the time.
Not that it's germane to the discussion at hand, just an interesting factoid. Carry on.
So far I am Jewish and Gay. Whaddya think, Ray, would you take odds that I'm the anti-Christ?
(relax! I'm just joking aroung!)
Ray, interestingly, the wording in the KJV was actually considered to be formal and "old-fashioned" at the time.
Not that it's germane to the discussion at hand, just an interesting factoid. Carry on.
So far I am Jewish and Gay. Whaddya think, Ray, would you take odds that I'm the anti-Christ?
(relax! I'm just joking aroung!)
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
It's not easy being Green U know!
Kermot the Frog
And, did U know that people who write with their left hand will go to hell when they die! Naughty left handers. It's not natural too write with yur left hand, U know, just not natural!!!
[ 05. August 2003, 16:31: Message edited by: Stone ]
It's not easy being Green U know!
Kermot the Frog
And, did U know that people who write with their left hand will go to hell when they die! Naughty left handers. It's not natural too write with yur left hand, U know, just not natural!!!
[ 05. August 2003, 16:31: Message edited by: Stone ]
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
SACRILEGE!! i think you should go to hell for mis-spelling 'Kermit the Frog.'
SACRILEGE!! i think you should go to hell for mis-spelling 'Kermit the Frog.'
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
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2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
So, Dentrassi, if Kermit is God does that make Miss Piggy the Virgin Mary?
So, Dentrassi, if Kermit is God does that make Miss Piggy the Virgin Mary?
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
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ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
well, i dont recall a biblical passage where the virgin mary beats up god, so perhaps not. additionally Miss Piggy is the affectionate type so she'd be pretty pissed off if she got pregnant without the fun part. if theres any muppets character that should be god it should be Gonzo.
i think we are drifting off topic. ill stand back and let the indepth conversation about biblical consistancy start up again.
well, i dont recall a biblical passage where the virgin mary beats up god, so perhaps not. additionally Miss Piggy is the affectionate type so she'd be pretty pissed off if she got pregnant without the fun part. if theres any muppets character that should be god it should be Gonzo.
i think we are drifting off topic. ill stand back and let the indepth conversation about biblical consistancy start up again.
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
Stuff that. In this thread of selective quoting from the bible I would just be far to tempted to point out that Genesis chapter 20 ends in this manner:
However cos I think selectively quoting from a text entirely out of cultural context just makes you look silly, I am not going to.
Instead I will subtly re-direct the conversation by bringing in something interesting. I have marched in Mardi Gras in Sydney a couple of times, and always feel the need to say "straight but not narrow", as though I am trying to ensure that I am not mistaken for being gay. That is my prejudice, instilled in me as a child by the usual epithets that kids fling around before they know what they mean. Very few of us are entirely clear of prejudice.
Stuff that. In this thread of selective quoting from the bible I would just be far to tempted to point out that Genesis chapter 20 ends in this manner:
quote:And therefore the bible supports incest.
Genesis Chapter 20
30: And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31: And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33: And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34: And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our Father.
35: And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36: Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37: And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38: And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
However cos I think selectively quoting from a text entirely out of cultural context just makes you look silly, I am not going to.
Instead I will subtly re-direct the conversation by bringing in something interesting. I have marched in Mardi Gras in Sydney a couple of times, and always feel the need to say "straight but not narrow", as though I am trying to ensure that I am not mistaken for being gay. That is my prejudice, instilled in me as a child by the usual epithets that kids fling around before they know what they mean. Very few of us are entirely clear of prejudice.
It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.
What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Alot of twisted things happend in the Bible, it doesnt mean that it was supported. Please remember that just because it was written in the Bible it doesnt mean that God supported it. It doesnt mean that its not a sin.
You also note that Lot didnt know what happend. I am sure that someone will try to accidently forget that was mentiond but we all make mistakes.
Ohh thats Chapter 19, not 20.
Mike, I know you are somewhat joking, but I really dont care what you are or what you do or who you do it with. Its all you man do what you want, I wont approve all the time but then again since you dont seek my approval why should you care what I think. If I am right, and I do believe I am, just dont come up to me and expect pitty when your standing there waiting on your judgment.
Alot of twisted things happend in the Bible, it doesnt mean that it was supported. Please remember that just because it was written in the Bible it doesnt mean that God supported it. It doesnt mean that its not a sin.
You also note that Lot didnt know what happend. I am sure that someone will try to accidently forget that was mentiond but we all make mistakes.
Ohh thats Chapter 19, not 20.
Mike, I know you are somewhat joking, but I really dont care what you are or what you do or who you do it with. Its all you man do what you want, I wont approve all the time but then again since you dont seek my approval why should you care what I think. If I am right, and I do believe I am, just dont come up to me and expect pitty when your standing there waiting on your judgment.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
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Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Where did you hear me or anyone else say that one verson was better?
And yes, alot of people are childish, and they need to know I will defend my position with aggression if needed.
Ohh if you read the book of Acts, you will find an early form of communisim.
Frosty, you really like to pick out something someone says, well... one little bit and then ignore the context in which it was written. See thats quoting out of context, a bad thing to do in a debate, it makes you look dumb. You may not be dumb but it makes you look so.
Dont get me wrong I am neither calling you smart nor dumb, just letting you know.
Also you speculate alot, you put things in peoples mouths and you go too far to an extream if you think it will proove your point, in reality... you prove nothing, because someone can come along and just sink your ship like the Titanic.
Where did you hear me or anyone else say that one verson was better?
And yes, alot of people are childish, and they need to know I will defend my position with aggression if needed.
Ohh if you read the book of Acts, you will find an early form of communisim.
Frosty, you really like to pick out something someone says, well... one little bit and then ignore the context in which it was written. See thats quoting out of context, a bad thing to do in a debate, it makes you look dumb. You may not be dumb but it makes you look so.
Dont get me wrong I am neither calling you smart nor dumb, just letting you know.
Also you speculate alot, you put things in peoples mouths and you go too far to an extream if you think it will proove your point, in reality... you prove nothing, because someone can come along and just sink your ship like the Titanic.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
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Location: San Diego California
Posted:
I am using the NIV because it is the Bible that I have sitting in front of me, not because it supports my opinion. Unfortunatly I dont have a full concordance with me so I cant go into every detail about homosexuality as I dont have the entire Bible memorised.
"nor abusers of themselves with mankind" thus meaning sex with men, probably a nice way of saying taking it in the ass! so there is another version.
Here is the full quote from the ASV
Did God, according to the Bible, not destroy this city full of gay men?
Like Mike was so kind to point out, this agument it mute if you dont believe in the Bible, but thats not the point, the piont is, is that I have backed up my opinion, something nobody else has done. Witht he exception of... "this is just how I feel".
Hate? Where do you see hate? Surly not from me, I do not hate homosexuals, I dont agree with it and I am not afraid to say that I dont agree with it. I do not hate them.
I am not making an argument against homosexuality, I am backing up why I dont agree with it.
If you are homosexual, then I do not agree with your sexual preferance, I have stated why, though you are free to do what you will. I will never support you in your actions, nor will I tolorate anyone taking actions against you.
I even support homosexuality in the military! Yes, its true, personally I feel that if someone,reguardless of sexual preferance, can maintain a professional attitude while on duty and adhere to the standerds of the institution then by all means hand em a rifle! It should not matter what sex someone prefers, as relationships are not part of a professional attitude then we really dont have anything to worry about in the work place now do we?
So show me where I hate???
I am using the NIV because it is the Bible that I have sitting in front of me, not because it supports my opinion. Unfortunatly I dont have a full concordance with me so I cant go into every detail about homosexuality as I dont have the entire Bible memorised.
"nor abusers of themselves with mankind" thus meaning sex with men, probably a nice way of saying taking it in the ass! so there is another version.
Here is the full quote from the ASV
quote:And the KJV
But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 19:5 and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men that came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 19:6 And Lot went out unto them to the door, and shut the door after him. 19:7 And he said, I pray you, my brethren, do not so wickedly. 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters that have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing, forasmuch as they are come under the shadow of my roof. 19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and drew near to break the door. 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
quote:and now the RSV
But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 and said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
quote:In the Bible that I quoted and these three, all of them say in one way or another that the men of the city refused two VIRGIN daughters for the men. Is this not homosexuality?
But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house;
[5] and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them."
[6] Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him,
[7] and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.
[8] Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
[9] But they said, "Stand back!" And they said, "This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them." Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door.
[10] But the men put forth their hands and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door.
[11] And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves groping for the door.
Did God, according to the Bible, not destroy this city full of gay men?
Like Mike was so kind to point out, this agument it mute if you dont believe in the Bible, but thats not the point, the piont is, is that I have backed up my opinion, something nobody else has done. Witht he exception of... "this is just how I feel".
Hate? Where do you see hate? Surly not from me, I do not hate homosexuals, I dont agree with it and I am not afraid to say that I dont agree with it. I do not hate them.
I am not making an argument against homosexuality, I am backing up why I dont agree with it.
If you are homosexual, then I do not agree with your sexual preferance, I have stated why, though you are free to do what you will. I will never support you in your actions, nor will I tolorate anyone taking actions against you.
I even support homosexuality in the military! Yes, its true, personally I feel that if someone,reguardless of sexual preferance, can maintain a professional attitude while on duty and adhere to the standerds of the institution then by all means hand em a rifle! It should not matter what sex someone prefers, as relationships are not part of a professional attitude then we really dont have anything to worry about in the work place now do we?
So show me where I hate???
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Frosty, no body said that homosexuals go to hell. Do your ulcer a favor and get off that tangent, forgivness of sin is a different topic all together.
Lot didnt attempt to give up his daughters to save his hide, he did it to save the angels (the two men), not that they really needed it but then you get into the folly of man and thats another topic too
Again, they didnt just give up two virgins women, they said no we want to have sex with the men! Not wanting to have sex doesnt mean your gay, wanting or having sex with the same sex means your gay. Do you not understand this?
Now you get onto the going to hell part, again!
I forget the passage referance, but it goes something like, If we repent of our sins, He (God) is faithfull and just and will forgive us of all unrightiousness. Also For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And one last one, For all have sined and have fallen short of the glory of God.
So just because your gay doesnt mean that your gonna burn. So, now where is the hate?
Frosty, no body said that homosexuals go to hell. Do your ulcer a favor and get off that tangent, forgivness of sin is a different topic all together.
Lot didnt attempt to give up his daughters to save his hide, he did it to save the angels (the two men), not that they really needed it but then you get into the folly of man and thats another topic too
Again, they didnt just give up two virgins women, they said no we want to have sex with the men! Not wanting to have sex doesnt mean your gay, wanting or having sex with the same sex means your gay. Do you not understand this?
Now you get onto the going to hell part, again!
I forget the passage referance, but it goes something like, If we repent of our sins, He (God) is faithfull and just and will forgive us of all unrightiousness. Also For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And one last one, For all have sined and have fallen short of the glory of God.
So just because your gay doesnt mean that your gonna burn. So, now where is the hate?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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Posted:
Frosty, Dom, Mike... I dont want to explain myself further, you have my opinoin and your not going to change it. This is what I believe, accept it and move on. You neednt challenge it any more nor do you need to challenge where I base my opinion from. All of your attacks have failed, every last one. There is nothing you can say that will change that.
Have a good day.
Frosty, Dom, Mike... I dont want to explain myself further, you have my opinoin and your not going to change it. This is what I believe, accept it and move on. You neednt challenge it any more nor do you need to challenge where I base my opinion from. All of your attacks have failed, every last one. There is nothing you can say that will change that.
Have a good day.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
yay!
once again, a debate is brought to an end just as it reaches the crux of the matter...
the thing that strikes me here is that nowhere in those three quotes (from three different versions of the bible) does it directly say the men were homosexuals - that they wanted to have sex with the two men under lot's care.
and if you read between the lines and decide that it implies just that, then it must also imply that they are rapists - wanting to 'know' the two men, whether it was their will or not (against it would seem as they do not readily come out to meet the men of the city).
who are we to judge whether or not god killed the men of sodom for their evil nature or for their sexual preferences?
in fact, we should not judge at all ('lest we be judged' or something equally ominous) - isn't that right reserved for god and god alone...?
i thought the idea was that we treat each person as our own brother or sister and let god deal with whether or not what they do in the bedroom is 'right' or 'wrong' when their day of judgement comes?
it is not our place to read words (put into god's mouth by men) and assume that our interpretation is correct and hence that we can consider homosexuals sinners.
[ 06. August 2003, 03:39: Message edited by: coleman ]
yay!
once again, a debate is brought to an end just as it reaches the crux of the matter...
the thing that strikes me here is that nowhere in those three quotes (from three different versions of the bible) does it directly say the men were homosexuals - that they wanted to have sex with the two men under lot's care.
and if you read between the lines and decide that it implies just that, then it must also imply that they are rapists - wanting to 'know' the two men, whether it was their will or not (against it would seem as they do not readily come out to meet the men of the city).
who are we to judge whether or not god killed the men of sodom for their evil nature or for their sexual preferences?
in fact, we should not judge at all ('lest we be judged' or something equally ominous) - isn't that right reserved for god and god alone...?
i thought the idea was that we treat each person as our own brother or sister and let god deal with whether or not what they do in the bedroom is 'right' or 'wrong' when their day of judgement comes?
it is not our place to read words (put into god's mouth by men) and assume that our interpretation is correct and hence that we can consider homosexuals sinners.
[ 06. August 2003, 03:39: Message edited by: coleman ]
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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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big and good and broken
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Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
any ray, *please* don't take this as an 'attack' upon yourself.
my post was intended to be a juxtaposition to the common assumption that the men of sodom were killed because of their sexual preferences rather than other actions that could much more readily be interpreted as sins.
if it's anything inflammatory, its an indictment on the ambiguity of religious texts and our tendancy as followers to read between the lines and interpret those teachings to suit our already fully formed opinions.
but the debate is over anyway so i'll go away now
any ray, *please* don't take this as an 'attack' upon yourself.
my post was intended to be a juxtaposition to the common assumption that the men of sodom were killed because of their sexual preferences rather than other actions that could much more readily be interpreted as sins.
if it's anything inflammatory, its an indictment on the ambiguity of religious texts and our tendancy as followers to read between the lines and interpret those teachings to suit our already fully formed opinions.
but the debate is over anyway so i'll go away now
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
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Location: montreal: bagel capital
133 posts
Location: montreal: bagel capital
Posted:
Choice? God? Intended by nature? Virgins?
There are a lot of things that don't make any sense: here is my 2 cents.
1) Homosexuality is not a choice, it's a preference. The choice comes when you decide to either go with, or against your preference. One way you cheat yourself, the other way, you get 'prosecuted' by the homophobic society you live in. But if you're homosexual, you're not broken, and you can't be 'fixed'.
2) What does God, Hell or the Bible have to do with anything? This is the same mentality that led the holly Crusades, enslavement of the Gypsies, and many more massacres. The Bible is a big popular storybook, full of stories that relate to God (Christian, Jewish, and Muslim). Now there are a huge number of things in the Bible that we would find absolutely unthinkable to do, yet we chose to refer to the passages that say what is righteous in the eye of God. That's not very fair, as the Bible says anything we want it to.
3) Yes, male and female were intended to mate together. Otherwise we couldn't breed, and that would be the end of human kind. But many of the couples we see today don't want to breed, people who have been together for most of their lives and just don't want kids. They stay together either because out of convenience, or out of love, or a healthy mix of both. Whether these two people are of the same sex, or different sex shouldn't really matter.
And to go back to the topic of the new homophobia, I believe that the words of 'comfort' from a parent to a child that spell out the lines of 'homosexuals are people too', it just makes me think, Jee, why are you telling your kids this, as though maybe it could occur to them that they are not? This is what instills a shadow of doubt in the young minds that we forge. I think we would be headed in a better direction if we just explained to them what hetero and homosexuality is.
'Not in my house' and 'not my son' are being heard often despite the new preaching that 'homosexuals are people too'. I guess this comes from the fact that many people see homosexuality as a dysfunction, or a problem, more so, they see it all around them because it has become more open of a topic.
As for not wanting virgins, what's wrong with that. I now refuse all virgins that come my way (as they are a hassle to train despite their eagerness to please).
/soldari
Choice? God? Intended by nature? Virgins?
There are a lot of things that don't make any sense: here is my 2 cents.
1) Homosexuality is not a choice, it's a preference. The choice comes when you decide to either go with, or against your preference. One way you cheat yourself, the other way, you get 'prosecuted' by the homophobic society you live in. But if you're homosexual, you're not broken, and you can't be 'fixed'.
2) What does God, Hell or the Bible have to do with anything? This is the same mentality that led the holly Crusades, enslavement of the Gypsies, and many more massacres. The Bible is a big popular storybook, full of stories that relate to God (Christian, Jewish, and Muslim). Now there are a huge number of things in the Bible that we would find absolutely unthinkable to do, yet we chose to refer to the passages that say what is righteous in the eye of God. That's not very fair, as the Bible says anything we want it to.
3) Yes, male and female were intended to mate together. Otherwise we couldn't breed, and that would be the end of human kind. But many of the couples we see today don't want to breed, people who have been together for most of their lives and just don't want kids. They stay together either because out of convenience, or out of love, or a healthy mix of both. Whether these two people are of the same sex, or different sex shouldn't really matter.
And to go back to the topic of the new homophobia, I believe that the words of 'comfort' from a parent to a child that spell out the lines of 'homosexuals are people too', it just makes me think, Jee, why are you telling your kids this, as though maybe it could occur to them that they are not? This is what instills a shadow of doubt in the young minds that we forge. I think we would be headed in a better direction if we just explained to them what hetero and homosexuality is.
'Not in my house' and 'not my son' are being heard often despite the new preaching that 'homosexuals are people too'. I guess this comes from the fact that many people see homosexuality as a dysfunction, or a problem, more so, they see it all around them because it has become more open of a topic.
As for not wanting virgins, what's wrong with that. I now refuse all virgins that come my way (as they are a hassle to train despite their eagerness to please).
/soldari
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Well in the NIV version, the one that I quoted, it does say that the men wanted to have sex with the two visiting men.
Now yall are not reading this right, this is not a debate on religion, I was asked why my opinion is what it is. I explained it, the debate is about homophobia, not does God think homosexuality is wrong.
Why should I continue to debate something that is off topic any longer?
I am not a Biblical schollar if you really want your quesitons answerd find a chruch, set up a meeting and ask your questions. I dont know everything nor am I about to sit here and play games with you all.
I ask you how many differnt umm for lack of a better word slang terms are there for sex?
I could probably name a good dozen or so right off the top of my head. And getting to know a chick would be in there... I dunno might be an American thing, I guess the rest of the world is so sexualy pure that the only thing they call sex is sex.
Coleman, granted there was more than just homosexuality that was wrong with Sodom, however, the problem with homosexuality was so big that it was worth mentioning in the Bible.
Wow, you used more than 4 cylable words, wow!
Here, you want to continue a debate about how I have formed an opinion and am seeking Biblical referance to back my opinion. Go read the Bible and prove me wrong. Show me text in the NIV (New International Version) where it says homosexuality is right.
Come on, try. I dare you.
Well in the NIV version, the one that I quoted, it does say that the men wanted to have sex with the two visiting men.
Now yall are not reading this right, this is not a debate on religion, I was asked why my opinion is what it is. I explained it, the debate is about homophobia, not does God think homosexuality is wrong.
Why should I continue to debate something that is off topic any longer?
I am not a Biblical schollar if you really want your quesitons answerd find a chruch, set up a meeting and ask your questions. I dont know everything nor am I about to sit here and play games with you all.
I ask you how many differnt umm for lack of a better word slang terms are there for sex?
I could probably name a good dozen or so right off the top of my head. And getting to know a chick would be in there... I dunno might be an American thing, I guess the rest of the world is so sexualy pure that the only thing they call sex is sex.
Coleman, granted there was more than just homosexuality that was wrong with Sodom, however, the problem with homosexuality was so big that it was worth mentioning in the Bible.
Wow, you used more than 4 cylable words, wow!
Here, you want to continue a debate about how I have formed an opinion and am seeking Biblical referance to back my opinion. Go read the Bible and prove me wrong. Show me text in the NIV (New International Version) where it says homosexuality is right.
Come on, try. I dare you.
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Posted:
more than 4 syllables was that? sorry dude...
i done showed y'all i cun talk proper an all if i'm wantin too huh?
well gol-lee, i'm just spillin over i can't tell ya i'm so darn happy. we's havin us a real live convermasation!
back off to the tangent we were on...
as far as i can see, nowhere does it say that god wiped out sodom because they were all gay - god is a fickle bastard and i don't comprehend how the church and it's scholars can presume to know his thoughts so well on homosexuality from these few ambiguous and sketchy verses.
but no ray, you are not a scholar and i am obviously not so bothered about devout christian beliefs as to go to a church and find one to debate this with.
teehee - this just dropped in my inbox from cnn "-- Episcopal Church convention ratifies nomination of first openly gay bishop." it seems some parts of the church at least disagree with these interpretations...
more than 4 syllables was that? sorry dude...
i done showed y'all i cun talk proper an all if i'm wantin too huh?
well gol-lee, i'm just spillin over i can't tell ya i'm so darn happy. we's havin us a real live convermasation!
back off to the tangent we were on...
quote:if someone could point out exactly where it states homosexuality is a 'problem' then i think i could better understand the church's interpretation.
Coleman, granted there was more than just homosexuality that was wrong with Sodom, however, the problem with homosexuality was so big that it was worth mentioning in the Bible.
as far as i can see, nowhere does it say that god wiped out sodom because they were all gay - god is a fickle bastard and i don't comprehend how the church and it's scholars can presume to know his thoughts so well on homosexuality from these few ambiguous and sketchy verses.
but no ray, you are not a scholar and i am obviously not so bothered about devout christian beliefs as to go to a church and find one to debate this with.
quote:its a strange view, i don't get it but respect for that.
I will never support you in your actions, nor will I tolorate anyone taking actions against you.
teehee - this just dropped in my inbox from cnn "-- Episcopal Church convention ratifies nomination of first openly gay bishop." it seems some parts of the church at least disagree with these interpretations...
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Obviusly you have yet to read everything that I have written. Go back and read, then maybe I will answer your questions.
Ya and alot of Catholic priests rape kids, know what?? The world is a ****ed up place. I would like to hear why they say that is okay for there to be a gay priest, honestly I dont have an answer.
I dont agree with Islam but why should someone be persicuted because of their religion? I dont agree with homosexuality but why should someone be persicuted just because of their sexual preferance? Is not agreeing with it suitable grounds for standing by while someone gets bashed on for being differnt from me?
Obviusly you have yet to read everything that I have written. Go back and read, then maybe I will answer your questions.
Ya and alot of Catholic priests rape kids, know what?? The world is a ****ed up place. I would like to hear why they say that is okay for there to be a gay priest, honestly I dont have an answer.
I dont agree with Islam but why should someone be persicuted because of their religion? I dont agree with homosexuality but why should someone be persicuted just because of their sexual preferance? Is not agreeing with it suitable grounds for standing by while someone gets bashed on for being differnt from me?
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Are you just trying to provoke me? Or do you have a reson for your questions?
Actually I feel this "church" has been misled somewhere. It is not a rare occourance, hell people have even claimed to be Jesus and duped whole communities.
Are you just trying to provoke me? Or do you have a reson for your questions?
Actually I feel this "church" has been misled somewhere. It is not a rare occourance, hell people have even claimed to be Jesus and duped whole communities.
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Posted:
i would guess the reason that the episcopal church thinks its okay to have a gay *bishop* (bit higher up than just a priest i think) is for the same reason that the church of england has female vicars.
comparing them to a cult is laughable ray - they are a recognised religion and i can't see someone came along to the convention claiming to be jesus, went up to the head of the church and said 'hey, i'm the saviour and by the way having gay bishops is cool'.
they have rationally thought for themselves rather than blindly bowing to the whim of an old man in italy.
blind faith in god i respect with all my heart.
blind faith in 'the church' or any other largely extended set of 'beliefs' (the inverted commas are because a belief in this sense of it is fairly loose - the beliefs of the church change on a fairly regular basis) i abhore.
anyway, i did read your excerpt from corinthians but i ignored it as frankly a lot of what is said in that chapter is ignored by the church nowdays anyway (drunkards are sinners? do they not give alcoholic wine at communion?).
i mean come on, just 8 verses later is 1cor 6.18:
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."
so heterosexuals are just as much sinners as homosexuals, according to paul the apostle.
not according to god - paul said it.
and to be honest, this is a major problem i have with the bible and those who have blind faith in it - blind faith in god i can understand but blind faith in a text written by men about what they think god wants is (imo) lazy and to a large extent submissive.
this however really helped me understand your viewpoint:
i kinda get that.
that sounds like any belief of a religious nature - like a jewish friend of mine would believe eating pork will mean that you will be in big trouble upon the day of your judgement but he wouldn't go round telling us we're all damned and that i'm a dirty sinner while i'm tucking into my bacon sandwich.
it applies to all facets of organised religion but taking the example of the choice of the episcopal church and your opinion of why they made their recent decision, i only really have one outstanding question:
how do you decide whether it is the episcopal church that has been 'misled' or if it is you that is being misled...?
do you question the teachings of your religion (especially the ones that are obviously ambiguous) for yourself or do you rely on scholars and the gentlemen in rome to decide what you should believe on *all* moral matters?
i would guess the reason that the episcopal church thinks its okay to have a gay *bishop* (bit higher up than just a priest i think) is for the same reason that the church of england has female vicars.
comparing them to a cult is laughable ray - they are a recognised religion and i can't see someone came along to the convention claiming to be jesus, went up to the head of the church and said 'hey, i'm the saviour and by the way having gay bishops is cool'.
they have rationally thought for themselves rather than blindly bowing to the whim of an old man in italy.
blind faith in god i respect with all my heart.
blind faith in 'the church' or any other largely extended set of 'beliefs' (the inverted commas are because a belief in this sense of it is fairly loose - the beliefs of the church change on a fairly regular basis) i abhore.
anyway, i did read your excerpt from corinthians but i ignored it as frankly a lot of what is said in that chapter is ignored by the church nowdays anyway (drunkards are sinners? do they not give alcoholic wine at communion?).
i mean come on, just 8 verses later is 1cor 6.18:
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."
so heterosexuals are just as much sinners as homosexuals, according to paul the apostle.
not according to god - paul said it.
and to be honest, this is a major problem i have with the bible and those who have blind faith in it - blind faith in god i can understand but blind faith in a text written by men about what they think god wants is (imo) lazy and to a large extent submissive.
this however really helped me understand your viewpoint:
quote:your religion (aka. your set of moral beliefs) says its wrong but since it is not for you to judge others, then you treat everyone as equals and leave the task of judgement to god?
I dont agree with Islam but why should someone be persicuted because of their religion? I dont agree with homosexuality but why should someone be persicuted just because of their sexual preferance?
i kinda get that.
that sounds like any belief of a religious nature - like a jewish friend of mine would believe eating pork will mean that you will be in big trouble upon the day of your judgement but he wouldn't go round telling us we're all damned and that i'm a dirty sinner while i'm tucking into my bacon sandwich.
it applies to all facets of organised religion but taking the example of the choice of the episcopal church and your opinion of why they made their recent decision, i only really have one outstanding question:
how do you decide whether it is the episcopal church that has been 'misled' or if it is you that is being misled...?
do you question the teachings of your religion (especially the ones that are obviously ambiguous) for yourself or do you rely on scholars and the gentlemen in rome to decide what you should believe on *all* moral matters?
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Hehe, once again you either didnt read or didnt read all the way through, or your just flat out speculating and trying to put words in my mouth.
Umm drunkerds and wine in church.
1, I have never gotten wine in church, it was always Welches grape juice (I guess my church got a deal on it or something cause it always was Welches... anyway)
2, The size of the cups given at communion would have trouble getting a month old drunk!
What is a church? Ask yourself that, then come speek to me about blindly following a church.
My definition of a church, it is the body of Christ, it isnt something you can blindly follow.
I dont believe in a church, the Church... thats another matter. The leader of that church is Jesus and no other.
I never said hetrosexuals are free from sin, you dont have to be gay to be a sinner, just human. Like I said before, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
Your right though, paul said everything in that book, it was actually a letter.
The Bible is a book penned by man but inspired by God. Think of it as the inker on a comic strip, the artist (God) draws everything out, and makes it clear what is what and what goes where. The inker (man) simply takes what the artist has done and puts it into an easy to follow form. He doesnt change anything, he doesnt alter the meaning of the story, he just inks.
In order to answer your last question, I would need to know why the episcaple church thought it okay to have a gay bishop. I would need to know what, if any, Biblical referance they used.
If they used no Biblical referance then they are indeed misled, if they did have a Biblical referance (and I 100% doubt that they did) then it would require carefull scrutany to determine if they truly read and took what they read in context.
Hehe, once again you either didnt read or didnt read all the way through, or your just flat out speculating and trying to put words in my mouth.
Umm drunkerds and wine in church.
1, I have never gotten wine in church, it was always Welches grape juice (I guess my church got a deal on it or something cause it always was Welches... anyway)
2, The size of the cups given at communion would have trouble getting a month old drunk!
What is a church? Ask yourself that, then come speek to me about blindly following a church.
My definition of a church, it is the body of Christ, it isnt something you can blindly follow.
I dont believe in a church, the Church... thats another matter. The leader of that church is Jesus and no other.
I never said hetrosexuals are free from sin, you dont have to be gay to be a sinner, just human. Like I said before, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
Your right though, paul said everything in that book, it was actually a letter.
The Bible is a book penned by man but inspired by God. Think of it as the inker on a comic strip, the artist (God) draws everything out, and makes it clear what is what and what goes where. The inker (man) simply takes what the artist has done and puts it into an easy to follow form. He doesnt change anything, he doesnt alter the meaning of the story, he just inks.
In order to answer your last question, I would need to know why the episcaple church thought it okay to have a gay bishop. I would need to know what, if any, Biblical referance they used.
If they used no Biblical referance then they are indeed misled, if they did have a Biblical referance (and I 100% doubt that they did) then it would require carefull scrutany to determine if they truly read and took what they read in context.
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okay, so you don't generally get drunk at communion but according to catholic doctrine, drinking to get drunk is okay nowdays.
as is post-marital sex.
even though the bible clearly states (and far more clearly and often than it ever mentions homosexuality) that both of these are sins upon commital of which will preclude you from joining the kingdom of heaven.
homosexuality it seems is a far lesser sin than most things christians do on a regular basis.
as far as the responsibility for the bible goes, personally i see god as the inspiration for the story, the original men that wrote the bible as the artists and the modern day translators and scholars as the inkers.
and i think my last question stands independently of the episcopal church's ruling:
do you ever question the teachings of your religion (especially the ones that are obviously ambiguous) for yourself or do you rely on scholars and the gentlemen in rome (effectively the inkers and the colourists) to decide what you should believe on *all* moral matters?
okay, so you don't generally get drunk at communion but according to catholic doctrine, drinking to get drunk is okay nowdays.
as is post-marital sex.
even though the bible clearly states (and far more clearly and often than it ever mentions homosexuality) that both of these are sins upon commital of which will preclude you from joining the kingdom of heaven.
homosexuality it seems is a far lesser sin than most things christians do on a regular basis.
as far as the responsibility for the bible goes, personally i see god as the inspiration for the story, the original men that wrote the bible as the artists and the modern day translators and scholars as the inkers.
and i think my last question stands independently of the episcopal church's ruling:
do you ever question the teachings of your religion (especially the ones that are obviously ambiguous) for yourself or do you rely on scholars and the gentlemen in rome (effectively the inkers and the colourists) to decide what you should believe on *all* moral matters?
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Posted:
Wow, you must know everything about everything!
I mean I know a few proffesors at Oazark Christian College, and not one of them seem to share your opinion.
Now granted one inker may colour something green while another colours it blue, however the story and the meat of the original piece is uneffected.
When you think of Christianity is that all you think of... hell?
Umm I'm not Catholic and really and there are some aspects of that religion that I dont agree with either, mainly their hirachy but thats another debate.
I was tought that only post-marital sex was okay, that is if you mean by post-marital as in the time after you say your vows and not after you get a diviorce. Pre-marital sex is what I was taught, the sin.
Drinking to excess, well... I'm not innocent of it, but you are missing out on a key point, EVERY SIN will keep you from the Kingdom of God, no matter where man places it on a scale, God sees sin, you go to hell. Cotten dry, either you are free from sin, or you burn.
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... For the wadges of sin is death, but the true gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord... If we repent of our sins, God is faithfull and just and forgive us of all unrightchusness.
Those are the three things that you must understand if you are to believe.
Jeffory Dommer, mass murderer, repented of his sins and asked God to forgive him shortly before he was exicuted. If he was sincer then he is in heaven if not... well then he is in hell.
Your opinion of what is "obviously ambiguous" and mine might be two different things. Yes I do question things. However I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.
Nobody in Rome has ever dictated what I believe. I'll eat meat when I choose, pray when I choose, I dont need an old fart in a wierd hat to pray for me. I do not have to pray x number of times to be forgiven.
Wow, you must know everything about everything!
I mean I know a few proffesors at Oazark Christian College, and not one of them seem to share your opinion.
Now granted one inker may colour something green while another colours it blue, however the story and the meat of the original piece is uneffected.
When you think of Christianity is that all you think of... hell?
Umm I'm not Catholic and really and there are some aspects of that religion that I dont agree with either, mainly their hirachy but thats another debate.
I was tought that only post-marital sex was okay, that is if you mean by post-marital as in the time after you say your vows and not after you get a diviorce. Pre-marital sex is what I was taught, the sin.
Drinking to excess, well... I'm not innocent of it, but you are missing out on a key point, EVERY SIN will keep you from the Kingdom of God, no matter where man places it on a scale, God sees sin, you go to hell. Cotten dry, either you are free from sin, or you burn.
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... For the wadges of sin is death, but the true gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord... If we repent of our sins, God is faithfull and just and forgive us of all unrightchusness.
Those are the three things that you must understand if you are to believe.
Jeffory Dommer, mass murderer, repented of his sins and asked God to forgive him shortly before he was exicuted. If he was sincer then he is in heaven if not... well then he is in hell.
Your opinion of what is "obviously ambiguous" and mine might be two different things. Yes I do question things. However I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.
Nobody in Rome has ever dictated what I believe. I'll eat meat when I choose, pray when I choose, I dont need an old fart in a wierd hat to pray for me. I do not have to pray x number of times to be forgiven.
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Posted:
if you know religious scholars that disagree with my points then i will happily concede.
i thought drinking was okay for christians but i stand corrected.
again i will ask my question as it remains unanswered:
my comment about rome was trying to express the fact that the the bible cannot be followed word for word.
if you don't take cue's from christian scholars (the most esteemed of which reside in rome) how do you personally decide which bits are okay to ignore and which bits are not?
i think you make my point for me on homosexuality and sinning:
these are sins covered by the ten commandments (rape is the most extreme form of coveting) but being gay wasn't on moses' tablet was it...?
still, independently of what is written in the bible, you consider it an equally contemptable sin.
i think from this that it is clear that the root of your opinions on homosexuality are not based purely on what the bible teaches.
you *personally* consider homosexuality a sin analogous to murder and i think you'd be hard pushed to present that as anything but a form of homophobia.
all other readers please now refer to the starting post of this thread.
quote:well done ray for keeping up this sensible, reasoned debate with no emotion or personal jibes. its going well mate
Wow, you must know everything about everything!
if you know religious scholars that disagree with my points then i will happily concede.
i thought drinking was okay for christians but i stand corrected.
again i will ask my question as it remains unanswered:
my comment about rome was trying to express the fact that the the bible cannot be followed word for word.
if you don't take cue's from christian scholars (the most esteemed of which reside in rome) how do you personally decide which bits are okay to ignore and which bits are not?
i think you make my point for me on homosexuality and sinning:
quote:
If I am right, and I do believe I am, just dont come up to me and expect pitty when your standing there waiting on your judgment.
quote:how could you possibly pity a gay man on his judgement when according to your own reasoning of the nature of god, you will be standing right next to him, accused of sins that are equal in the eyes of god?
Drinking to excess, well... I'm not innocent of it, but you are missing out on a key point, EVERY SIN will keep you from the Kingdom of God, no matter where man places it on a scale, God sees sin, you go to hell.
quote:i think the basis of your pity is more than just the fact that what they are doing is a sin according to the holy bible. if thats all it was, you could compare being gay to getting drunk or any sin other but you do not have the blanket view of sin that you claim god does - you compare being gay to committing rape, murder or theft.
I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.
these are sins covered by the ten commandments (rape is the most extreme form of coveting) but being gay wasn't on moses' tablet was it...?
still, independently of what is written in the bible, you consider it an equally contemptable sin.
i think from this that it is clear that the root of your opinions on homosexuality are not based purely on what the bible teaches.
you *personally* consider homosexuality a sin analogous to murder and i think you'd be hard pushed to present that as anything but a form of homophobia.
all other readers please now refer to the starting post of this thread.
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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
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Posted:
Hehe, sorry that isnt even close. What I am saying is that in my opinion homosexuality is wrong.
That is all.
Homophobic or not it does not matter.
Live how you want, do all you wish, do anything you wish. May you be prepared for what ever end awaits you.
Hehe, sorry that isnt even close. What I am saying is that in my opinion homosexuality is wrong.
That is all.
Homophobic or not it does not matter.
Live how you want, do all you wish, do anything you wish. May you be prepared for what ever end awaits you.
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Posted:
maybe not to you but to every gay person and to a lot of heterosexuals it matters whether or not the gay community is actually enjoying true acceptance or if it is just homophobia under a veil of tolerance.
you were trying to explain the basis of your opinions on why being gay is wrong and i don't think you've really done that.
if you don't want to explain yourself in any way other than hiding behind a religious text, you shouldn't bother entering into the discussion in the first place - the teachings of the bible were not enough to explain your opinions on homosexuality so the discussion ends?
i'm not saying you are a bad person - i know a lot of people that don't agree with same sex relationships at all but you cannot lie and say that your opinions are solely based on your religion - we have clearly seen that they're not.
to close i thought i might ask a quick religion question
how do you (personally) decide which parts of the bible's teachings apply to your moral code and which bits do not? if you treat some parts as optional, why not the whole thing...?
[ 07. August 2003, 02:16: Message edited by: coleman ]
quote:i think the whole point of this topic is the fact that it *does* matter ray!
Homophobic or not it does not matter.
maybe not to you but to every gay person and to a lot of heterosexuals it matters whether or not the gay community is actually enjoying true acceptance or if it is just homophobia under a veil of tolerance.
you were trying to explain the basis of your opinions on why being gay is wrong and i don't think you've really done that.
if you don't want to explain yourself in any way other than hiding behind a religious text, you shouldn't bother entering into the discussion in the first place - the teachings of the bible were not enough to explain your opinions on homosexuality so the discussion ends?
quote:
Hehe, sorry that isnt even close. What I am saying is that in my opinion homosexuality is wrong.
quote:what you said there ray is a long, long way from simply saying "i think homosexuality is wrong."
I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.
i'm not saying you are a bad person - i know a lot of people that don't agree with same sex relationships at all but you cannot lie and say that your opinions are solely based on your religion - we have clearly seen that they're not.
to close i thought i might ask a quick religion question
how do you (personally) decide which parts of the bible's teachings apply to your moral code and which bits do not? if you treat some parts as optional, why not the whole thing...?
[ 07. August 2003, 02:16: Message edited by: coleman ]
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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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Posted:
Damn Coleman you and your simotainius posts
Okay the post I made above, ignore that untill after you read this one
My comment about knowing everything about everything was meant as humor not an insult.
As I am fully aware that you dont know everthing there is to know about the fundamental idea of splitting a nuclius free atom to improve fuel efficancy in the modern day Ford. The reason I know this... is because I just pulled that out of my butt
Lighten up man and laugh a little Though if you do know how to improve the fuel consumption rate in a modern day Ford (preferably a 1998 Ford Contour Sprot) I would really like to hear it!
Drinking to excess is considerd a sin: True.
I will be standing in the same line as every other sinner: True
My outcome will be the same as every other sinner: False
This means that not all sinners go to hell: True
The Bible can be followed word for word with the exception of the one book of prophicy (The book of Revilation), why do I say this? Because it has yet to happen in its whole. I do not know the future and the past is something I am trying to learn more of. So I can not speak for the future any more than any of you can.
Maybe the most esteemed in your opinion, or in the greater populous' opinion, but I would like to make my own opinion on who is esteemed.
The whole ideal of being a Christian is to be Christ like, in fact that is what that very word means. Was Jesus gay? No. Did Jesus ever get drunk? No. Did Jesus ever sin? No. Did Jesus drink wine? Yes. Does this mean that a Christian can drink? Yes. Does this mean that getting drunk is a sin? Yes. Does this mean that I am a sinner? DUH!!
I take it this is the question you had in mind...
No I do not rely on someone else for all of my answers, I do rely on some people for some of my answers but no not all of my answers.
If you break the 10 commandments down into their simplest form, you will find something like this... Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, body, and streangth. And love your neighbor as yourself.
I also mentiond lieing and stealing, two that are also listed in ten commandments.
Sodomy, though not listed in the 10 Commandments, it is a sin. What is Sodomy?
The dfinition of Sodomy
If you want more referances to the Bible condeming homosexuality here you go:
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. NKJ
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
How many more times will I have to show you that it is a sin? You ask for proof that God calls homosexuality a sin, there it is! God holds each sin equal, a lie will send you to hell just as fast as murder. It is not I who hold all sin equal it is God. Do you also want proof of this?
You dont have to believe it, but I do.
Damn Coleman you and your simotainius posts
Okay the post I made above, ignore that untill after you read this one
My comment about knowing everything about everything was meant as humor not an insult.
As I am fully aware that you dont know everthing there is to know about the fundamental idea of splitting a nuclius free atom to improve fuel efficancy in the modern day Ford. The reason I know this... is because I just pulled that out of my butt
Lighten up man and laugh a little Though if you do know how to improve the fuel consumption rate in a modern day Ford (preferably a 1998 Ford Contour Sprot) I would really like to hear it!
Drinking to excess is considerd a sin: True.
I will be standing in the same line as every other sinner: True
My outcome will be the same as every other sinner: False
This means that not all sinners go to hell: True
The Bible can be followed word for word with the exception of the one book of prophicy (The book of Revilation), why do I say this? Because it has yet to happen in its whole. I do not know the future and the past is something I am trying to learn more of. So I can not speak for the future any more than any of you can.
Maybe the most esteemed in your opinion, or in the greater populous' opinion, but I would like to make my own opinion on who is esteemed.
The whole ideal of being a Christian is to be Christ like, in fact that is what that very word means. Was Jesus gay? No. Did Jesus ever get drunk? No. Did Jesus ever sin? No. Did Jesus drink wine? Yes. Does this mean that a Christian can drink? Yes. Does this mean that getting drunk is a sin? Yes. Does this mean that I am a sinner? DUH!!
I take it this is the question you had in mind...
quote:I answerd the first part (the part that I didnt quote) here is the answer to the second.
do you rely on scholars and the gentlemen in rome (effectively the inkers and the colourists) to decide what you should believe on *all* moral matters?
No I do not rely on someone else for all of my answers, I do rely on some people for some of my answers but no not all of my answers.
quote:I do not pitty any man for their sins. Weather your gay, strait or bi, a sin is a sin and we will all be subject to the same judgement. According to my religion. I am not perfect, I have sinned, I am not striking down or judging anyone for their sins, I am however telling whoever is will to hear (or read) that they will be judged and what they should do to be prepared for that judgment.
how could you possibly pity a gay man on his judgement when according to your own reasoning of the nature of god, you will be standing right next to him, accused of sins that are equal in the eyes of god?
If you break the 10 commandments down into their simplest form, you will find something like this... Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, body, and streangth. And love your neighbor as yourself.
I also mentiond lieing and stealing, two that are also listed in ten commandments.
Sodomy, though not listed in the 10 Commandments, it is a sin. What is Sodomy?
The dfinition of Sodomy
quote:Wow fancy that, not only is the Bible mentiond but it even says that homosexuality can be roped in with having sex with an animal!
Main Entry: sod·omy
Pronunciation: 'sä-d&-mE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French sodomie, from Late Latin Sodoma Sodom; from the homosexual proclivities of the men of the city in Gen 19:1-11
Date: 13th century
1 : copulation with a member of the same sex or with an animal
2 : noncoital and especially anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex
If you want more referances to the Bible condeming homosexuality here you go:
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. NKJ
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
How many more times will I have to show you that it is a sin? You ask for proof that God calls homosexuality a sin, there it is! God holds each sin equal, a lie will send you to hell just as fast as murder. It is not I who hold all sin equal it is God. Do you also want proof of this?
quote:All sin is equal for all have sinned.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
You dont have to believe it, but I do.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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Posted:
What I include in my personal code of morality and what I follow are unfortunatly two seperate things. This is my failing and not my religions. Some addictions are just hard to break. I think I will refrain from speeking on this particuler topic in public, I dont ask details about what goes on in your life, I ask that you show me the same respect.
My opnions of homosexuality are based upon my religion.
quote:So in what one did I say that homosexuality is right? Niether? So they must both say that I think homosexuality is wrong, the second was just an extension to what I think is wrong. I could make a detailed list if that would please you. Granted not all of the list would be based on the Bible, there are some personal things that I think are wrong too.
quote:
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Hehe, sorry that isnt even close. What I am saying is that in my opinion homosexuality is wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel that there are somethings like homosexuality, murder, rape, lieing, stealing that are just plain as day and obvious as a freight train an inch from your nose, sins.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what you said there ray is a long, long way from simply saying "i think homosexuality is wrong."
What I include in my personal code of morality and what I follow are unfortunatly two seperate things. This is my failing and not my religions. Some addictions are just hard to break. I think I will refrain from speeking on this particuler topic in public, I dont ask details about what goes on in your life, I ask that you show me the same respect.
My opnions of homosexuality are based upon my religion.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
boy I wish we could flip flop posts to make things a bit easier to understand... we got a bit out of order hehehehehe
Yall... read these past few posts several times as they are out of order
boy I wish we could flip flop posts to make things a bit easier to understand... we got a bit out of order hehehehehe
Yall... read these past few posts several times as they are out of order
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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