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Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Bin Laden is DEAD! He had it coming!

Now if only NATO would leave Afghanistan!


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I wish people wouldn't celebrate in streets. Oh, I understand why. I lived in NYC for three years. Bastard knocked down the WTC with all those people inside it.

But still, it's distasteful. Then again, don't hold your breath waiting for my countrymen to behave tastefully.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Well, the hunt for him has taken nearly ten years, which is enough to sink into the national psyche on some level. I mean, I was in my first year of high school when it happened. (I am now 23.) That is a decent chunk of my development years.

Part of me wants to know why he was shot *after* the raid (at least, that is how I understood the report I read) instead of being brought to stand trial or something. The other part does not really care, except that "it" is now over. And the majority of me is wondering what this will actually change.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Why was he "buried at sea" as the BBC has been reporting?

Why is there no body?

Call me a cynic but...?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:welllll - honestly what changes? he was retired anyway. Just another gunslinging godfather theme right here.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:RC - you really believe NATO is in Afghanistan because of bin Laden?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:It will be interesting to see all the facts when they finally surface...

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:it would be surprising, if all the facts surface one day wink at least to me laugh3

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Rougie: I agree that that is odd.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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SpinnerofDetroit
SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Member Since: 25th Oct 2009
Total posts: 2280
Posted:He was buried at sea because no country wanted his body, or all the attention it would bring. I mean really, how would you like Osama Bin Laden's body buried in your back yard? I'd do the same as others and go censored no. i've also been told it was some religious thing, but I doubt we'd care about that considering who it is.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Seemed odd to me, but apparently he was given Muslim religious rites, his body washed, and he was buried at sea. Islamic traditions say you should be buried within 24 hours, and they didn't want a land grave that would become a shrine. It actually makes sense.

He was ID'd with facial recognition and DNA tests apparently.. and Al Qaeda has admitted he's dead, so I think we actually did get him.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:There is a name I have not seen for a while. Hi Lurch. smile

It does make sense to not make a land grave, I agree, but it still seems odd to me. Ah well. And, like you say, al Qaeda has confirmed it as well, so probably he is dead.

SoD: Not going to get into anything in-depth, but there is nothing wrong with giving someone at least a modicum of respect, simply as a fellow human being, no matter what they have done. If he was given Muslim rites, my respect to whoever was behind that.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:there are about 2[3] things I like to share on the topic:

1) opinionated

2) "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that" -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[3] though I can understand and as important for the families of those killed in 9/11 it is - by celebrating the [violent] death of a person, people show nothing but how desperate they are to realize humanity.

He should have faced trial.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1304380330)
EDIT_REASON: a little gut feeling


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:FireTom, he wasn't going to face trial. First of all, he wasn't going to come. Second, a trial would mean that he would need to be kept in custody and that would have been an almost impossible security risk.

I appreciate MLK Jr's idealism, but I disagree. There are some people who are so rotten at the core that the only thing that can be done is to kill them. No amount of education, therapy, or anything else could have cleansed OBL of his hatred. I have to believe that he was born with a brain defect, hard-wired. There is no cure for an absolute lack of empathy and so if he is going to be that dangerous to others, he has to be killed. And the killing itself in this case was what was being celebrated, not the death. Finding and killing him took a lot of work and that was what most people were celebrating, the job that was done.

To quote Mark Twain: "I have never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great delight."


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:

Originally Posted By: FireTomthere are about 2[3] things I like to share on the topic:

2) "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that" -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Just found this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arch...is-born/238220/


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Smurf24029
Smurf24029

Poi Master Smurf
Location: Tacoma, Washington
Member Since: 5th Sep 2009
Total posts: 343
Posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpBPVkpmoeg


Fly High
Spin Hard
Don't Stop

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:I'm still around every once in awhile aston, glad someone remembers my name!

I think it was an amazing gesture to grant him even the basic Muslim rites.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:I am on both sides of this. I do not think that he could have stood (fair) trial and he would have been excecuted anyway.

But I still feel that if people are celebrating death, it is not quite sound. That a long-term goal is achieved, fine, even if it is the death of someone.

But yes, not wanting to start a huge debate here. Nothing we can do about him not being alive anymore in any case.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Ash3s
Ash3s

member
Location: Durban South Africa
Member Since: 8th Feb 2011
Total posts: 161
Posted:Originally Posted By: astonBut I still feel that if people are celebrating death, it is not quite sound.

Ditto...


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks Mike, the quote seems misappropriated... good to know.

taken from http://jennajasso.com/mlk-i-mourn/
:

Originally Posted By: Osama is dead again. Yippie. It only took 9 years, the death of 919,967 civilians and troops, the ruin of at least two countries, $1,188,263,000,000, (make that 3 countries) along with the elimination of most of our rights, privacy, and dignity.

another fine read: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-ger...f=fb&src=sp
br>
Originally Posted By: We will only have peace when we stop the cycle of jubilation over acts of violence.

Who will stop the cycle? If not us, who? If not you and I, who will it be?

In the past I found it very discomforting to watch people burning "Uncle Sam" puppets and star spangled banners... what I see today is not much different and it delivers the same discomfort.

The other day there was a very stupid story on FB about a woman who wanted an abortion, she already had a child and didn't want to raise another one. The (male) doctor proposed to kill the baby in her arms instead of performing the abortion... thus talking her out of it. Some bs Christian anti-abortion mindf***
Guess she should just have said: "I dreamt it's another Osama coming..."

With all due respect for your profession and opinion, Mike - I wholeheartedly disagree. Warriors are born, terrorists are made. You're not suggesting some sort of eugenics, are you?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Oh, I am very much a eugenicist, but not in the traditional sense.

I believe that unrepentant mass-murderers are beyond reason and need to be killed. To be a mass-murderer of bin Laden's sort requires a complete lack of empathy. People with a complete lack of empathy are inherently dangerous and must not be permitted to live.

Also, neither of us was there at the raid, but I would bet there was no way he would have come. He would have taken a gun to his own head before going with American troops.

You can disagree. But did YOU lose anyone on 9/11? I did. If you had, you might feel differently.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:Here is the MLK original from from A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Quote:
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

While sometimes it may be necessary to take a life and the consequence of that action may be cause for joy, the act of committing a murder should never 'in itself' be a cause for celebration.
Whether you believe the action was necessary or not, celebrating a murder is not behaviour fitting of any nation (or person) that considers itself (/themself) 'civilised'.

Whenever a person see's behaviour they feel is abhorrent they should feel compelled to behave in such a way that they themselves cannot be accused of committing similar acts. To behave in a way that you have just berated someone else for is absolutely absurd.


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Originally Posted By: Seye
While sometimes it may be necessary to take a life and the consequence of that action may be cause for joy, the act of committing a murder should never 'in itself' be a cause for celebration.

I think that right there is the schism. Most people don't consider this murder.. Assassination might be argued, but Osama was obviously an enemy combatant. Murder does not apply IMHO


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Mike, not too much to argue here and I totally understand that those who lost loved ones in the 9/11 attacks feel relief, feel that "justice has been done" - and even happy about the fact.

How much more satisfactory would have been the fact, that on the 10th anniversary of the attacks, President Obama could announce that Mr. bin Laden has been captured and sits in Guantanamo, awaiting his trial?

Whilst "a feeling of relief" can apply to anyone... a family member, friend or bystander - the "right to live" also applies to anyone. Eating meat and vegetables is a different matter. That I feel grim relief over the death of a mosquito is a different matter.

From there to the celebration of a lost life is a big step - imho.

Might not make sense to you, but why do people (or you in this context) think of death as the ultimate, capital punishment? That's sooo .... Christian... and Western per se. Other religions have very different approach to death, the afterlife and punishment (or reward) of their actions.... Killing Mr. bin Laden... 72 virgins, thank you!

The US is one of the very few western countries still practicing the death penalty and "eugenics" (the ideology which later killed 6 Million jews) was propagated and practiced in the US/ UK way before taking off in Germany.

imho shooting Mr. bin Laden in a fire fight does in no way equal the suffering of those trapped in the twin towers, nor does it do justice to their relatives mourning for the last 9 years (and ongoing). It is again the wrong signal sent, it's again that of "an eye for an eye", one of violent revenge.

Putting Mr. bin Laden in front of an international court and leaving him in Guantanamo for the rest of his life - that would have been justice - imho.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:The word 'murder' in almost any dictionary will be declared as a synonym of the word 'kill' which is defined as 'to deprive of life in any manner'.

You could easily replace the words 'committing a murder' in my post with 'taking a life' or 'killing'. It would have exactly the same meaning.

And, I think you mean most 'Americans' not most 'people'.

Most people consider 'intentional killing' whether in the street or on the battlefield (or in this case in his home while unarmed) to be a bad thing. To define times when killing is good and times when killing is bad is absurd.

As I said - unfortunately killing can sometimes be justified but, the act of killing should never be celebrated. That is disgraceful psychopathic behaviour. And behaviour that amongst western nations, you will only ever see in the US.


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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Got to disagree with you Seye, murder is not the same as killing. Of course killing is bad, I've never argued that. But there are times when killing is justified, whereas murder is not.

I have a feeling you guys are grossly misreading the "celebrations" that took place. It would have been the same dead or alive. If you want to point fingers and cry "shame on you" that's fine by me. You've got the right the same way I have the right to say "Hooray! the manhunt is over!".

Empathy goes both ways.


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Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomRC - you really believe NATO is in Afghanistan because of bin Laden?

What I believe is of as much consequence as what you believe FT. I just want this to end. The only way I can see that happening is for NATO to pull up its big boy pants and leave.

Originally Posted By: SeyeAnd behaviour that amongst western nations, you will only ever see in the US.

Must we do this here, Seye?

I believe that the people were not celebrating his death as much as they were celebrating what they saw as justice being served, however loose you may chose to view the term justice.

It would have been justice for the man to be taken before a court, I am not sure anyone would disagree. It's also not a stretch to believe that Bin Laden was not going to be taken alive.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:Lurch - I think you're splitting hairs. And my issue is with people celebrating killing. Even when it is 'justified' it is never cause for celebration 'in itself'. Every time you reach the point where there is no other option than to kill someone the human race has failed and we all lose. The cycle continues and we are all still at risk.

And RC - The scenes of celebration in the US were almost identical to the scenes from some nations when the WTC came down. At the time the world called those celebrations on 9/11 disgraceful and there's a huge number of us who say the same about the recent scenes in the US.

The argument is pointlss. I'd take a look at the nationalities of the people posting on both sides in this conversation though. You can probably take that as a fairly good indicator as to the split in oppinions of how to deal with this kind of thing around the world.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:and in a twist of the story it seems as if the US government now claims that bin Laden was not armed at the time that he got shot...

this is a very unfortunate development and would clearly justify all criticism on his killing.

Seye, it might not to be at anybodies surprise here - but I'm 100% with you. Not trying to pin people off on purpose - but the cycle of violence has just been twisted the same direction. Sad indeed.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:FT - I totally agree.

In yet another twist it appears that the US didn't even inform the Pakistani government / military of their intentions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13276540
br>
So they may have entered a country illegally carried out a military execution on foreign soil without permission from (or even knowledge of) the state, taken sensitive documents and, according to some accounts, kidnapped another person.

This is truly disturbing behaviour. What's even more concerning is that the Pakistani government have expressed "deep concerns and reservations" about the US action.

This could actually be legitimate grounds for suspension or even expulsion from the UN if Pakistan decide to make a complaint. (Although I can't imagine that ever happening)

Of course - none of that has anything to do with the debate we've been having here but, it's of deep concern with regard to world politics none the less.


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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:http://www.mofa.gov.pk/Press_Releases/2011/May/PR_152.htm
br>
Quote:the Government of Pakistan expresses its deep concerns and reservations on the manner in which the Government of the United States carried out this operation without prior information or authorization from the Government of Pakistan.

This event of unauthorized unilateral action cannot be taken as a rule. The Government of Pakistan further affirms that such an event shall not serve as a future precedent for any state, including the US. Such actions undermine cooperation and may also sometime constitute threat to international peace and security.
(Emphasis mine)


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