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Posted:I tried them recently, but I couldn't do any more than a 2-beat..
Are any more-than-2-beat weaves possible with opposites, given that you maneuver the poi correctly so thet don't hit each other in front of you?
And if so, HOW?

Any help, pointers, and replies are extremely appreciated. (:


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Cyrik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

newbie
Location: Poland

Total posts: 32
Posted:learn thread the needle (possibly multiple) in both directions mate and it'll help you out.plus - if you nailed oposite split times butterfly you shouldnt have problems with that - you can do endless weave - unless i misunderstood ya smile

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meshunderlay
BRONZE Member since Sep 2008

meshunderlay

Juggler/Spinner
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA

Total posts: 612
Posted:I can't help much without demonstrating, but I can do same time opposite 3, 4, and 5 beat, and also split time opposites 3, 4 and 5 beat weaves. Both in Forward and Reverse.

Thinking about forward and reverse, I refer only to how your hands move, not the poi. So when doing a normal weave you can turn from forwards to reverse, same with opposites weave.

As Cyrik said, learning TTN forward, reverse, and split time forward/reverse will help loads.


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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:It all depends on what defines a weave. I think most of us agree that at the core definitive trate of 'weave' is that 2 things are twisting around each other wile facing one orientation (usually a plane), then crossing over to an opposite facing orientation to remove the twists added, only to twist again in the new orientation (plane facing), cross back over and repeat.

Two things rotating opposite each other can't do that wile sharing the same plane facing. They have to twist up wile sharing opposite plane-facings. The General rule is same direction twists sharing the same plane facing, opposite directions twist in opposite plane facings.

So in a way, the closest analogue to weaving in opposites is butterfly barrel-roll inversions... once you analyze the plane-facing switches with regard to the degrees of twist and un twist in the arms/poi.

But the simpler conceptualization that most people discover that even when your poi ar spinning opposites, your arms can weave in split-same... so these "butterfly weaves" are actually hybrid flowers that cross-over between 2 planes, compressed down so small that you don't notice that one poi is making a tini inspin flower and one is making a tini antispin flower.

The funky thing is given a particle butterfly direction/orientation you can choose two different "weaves". You could do a forwards weave with the poi A, thereby antispinning poi B, or you could do a reverse weave with poi B, thereby antispinning poi A.

So it seems there are as many "butterfly weaves" as there are inspin AND antispin weaves.


+Alien Jon

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:This elicits an interesting point about opposite direction moves. There is no forwards or reverse... inwards and outwards are only a shaky orientational reference to the center line of the body in wall plane orientation.

We take it for granted that, given our normally upright spinal orientation to gravity, it is intuitive to think of same direction as forwards like a wheel, anti-clockwise, backwards like a wheel, or clockwise... but if we decided to orient our perception the opposite of gravity then a "forwards" wheel rolling on the ceiling is reverse, and vice versa reverse becomes forwards on the ceiling... You can solve rotational vectors different ways. Which is why the right hand rule for rotation exists in physics. You put your right thumb up and curl your fingers and can then talk about the finger curl (rotational direction) relative to the thumb. This rotational orientation is the same as left hand curled with thumb down, but the convention is to talk from the right-handed perspective so as to avoid confusion.

If we play with this a little further we notice there are direct relationships for the 4 cardinal directions at each quarter turn of the body.

Given an unchanging spin orientation for the right hand we have:
right wrist anti-clockwise is
forwards on the home-side wheel plane
anti-clockwise on front wall plane
reverse on cross-side wheel plane
clockwise on back wall plane

right wrist clockwise is
reverse on the home-side wheel plane
clockwise on front wall plane
forwards on cross-side wheel plane
anti-clockwise on back wall plane

Of course the exact opposite is true for the left hand.

Since most people are right-handed (I'm actually a lefty) we also adopt a right hand rule convection. Lets borrow the Greek roots 'cata' (can mean front or down) and 'ana' (can mean back or up). If we apply this to the poi body relation from a right hand rule convection, then cata mean right-wrist anti-clockwise and ana means right-wrist clockwise.

This helps with spatial awareness in same direction. When we are dealing with opposite spins I think this convection simplifies how to talk about it. Given any butterfly pattern we can look at which way the right wrist is rolling the poi. and call the butterfly pattern cata or ana as needed.

Thoughts?


+Alien Jon

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Good idea, but not sure that it is needed for basic understanding. I can certainly see where it would have merit though.

This is something I have been sort of aware of for quite a while actually, but not really thought about properly. The question I have to ask is: would you see this as replacing inward/outward even at a beginner level?

(PS: Thanks for posting this here as well. The fb group really bites the big one for long-term archiving of things like this, and is far better suited to more ephemeral things.)


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Smurf24029
GOLD Member since Sep 2009

Smurf24029

Poi Master Smurf
Location: Tacoma, Washington

Total posts: 343
Posted:Great stuff there Jon, cool way to look at that. I had always left the thought at regular forwards one hand and anti with the other.

PS Left handed FTW!!!!


Fly High
Spin Hard
Don't Stop

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meshunderlay
BRONZE Member since Sep 2008

meshunderlay

Juggler/Spinner
Location: Hicksville, New York, USA

Total posts: 612
Posted:Interesting AlienJon, very interesting.

Though, my thought on the matter is this: What I call a forward weave or reverse weave is based solely on how my hands move, not how the poi move.


Edit: On a different note, split opposite fountain. Go! ^_^

EDITED_BY: meshunderlay (1304568682)


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Gwid


newbie
Location: Belgium

Total posts: 29
Posted:interesting yes
but contact is better ^^( i know it is'nt a "constructive" message sry)


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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: meshunderlayInteresting AlienJon, very interesting.

On a different note, split opposite fountain. Go! ^_^
Hell yes!

Originally Posted By: Gwidinteresting yes
but contact is better ^^( i know it is'nt a "constructive" message sry) spank


+Alien Jon

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Gwid


newbie
Location: Belgium

Total posts: 29
Posted:what?? you don't like contact poi alienjon??

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Midkiff
BRONZE Member since Nov 2009

shadow stranger
Location: Carmi, Illinois

Total posts: 462
Posted:well on the split opposites i have been doing a split time butterfly buzzsaw type thing in a buzzsaw fountain i'll try to get a vid while i'm on the road this week

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

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HeffeHeffeHeffe


Spinners United Leader
Location: Missouri, USA

Total posts: 29
Posted:i can only do a 3 beat reverse weave all i learned to do was start a regular 3 beat and when my right hand or whatever your dominate hand crosses as its uncrossing turn 90 degrees and u will see that hand go under yur other and just let it flow from there it does take time but opens up a world of moves just now working on 3 beat fountains and a 3 beat buzzsaw flower fountain, not even sure if the last one will be possible.

-Heffe


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HeffeHeffeHeffe


Spinners United Leader
Location: Missouri, USA

Total posts: 29
Posted:and reverse thead the needles with split time thrown in are fun threading the needle was the 2nd move ive learned and it has helped alot of my other split time moves out

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Opposite weaves are not reverse weaves. They are weaves done with the poi spinning opposite directions.

Also called butterfly weaves.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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