Forums > Social Chat > Am I the only one? (Religious people beware!)
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Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
EDIT = Been getting some complaints bout this so again, I warn all people who are very religious that the following thread may offend you. Please be prepared. I have also edited some text from this first post so that it may be a *little* less offensive to some.
Am I the only one who thinks all religion is junk? Every where I go there are people talking about their beliefs. Not only that, but they use their beliefs to try and govern other people’s lives. Why? Why is it so important to have meaning in life? Why do people need to believe that when they die, they’ll go to heaven? Isn’t life good enough without some crazy ass story about where they came from and where they’re going? Why can’t everyone just live with the fact that we’re just here and enjoy it while it lasts?
The reason I ask these questions is because it seems that more bad comes from religion than good. Take a look around. Notice how many people have died due to their beliefs. Look at all the wars that have come, gone, and are still going on in the name of god. Look at how much our lives are restricted by things that are “not moral.” Even our technology is suffering. Why can’t I clone myself if I wanted to? Why can’t we use stem cells to help people? Why can’t a rape victim get an abortion? And why can’t an 80 year old man dying from some awful disease put himself out of his misery?
There is so much physical evidence that disproves religion, yet, people hang on and whole heartedly believe these fantastical stories about god(s) and the afterlife. It really gets to me because regardless of the fact that I don’t believe in it, I’m forced to live my life as if I do.
EDITED_BY: ICoN (1075491940)
EDIT = Been getting some complaints bout this so again, I warn all people who are very religious that the following thread may offend you. Please be prepared. I have also edited some text from this first post so that it may be a *little* less offensive to some.
Am I the only one who thinks all religion is junk? Every where I go there are people talking about their beliefs. Not only that, but they use their beliefs to try and govern other people’s lives. Why? Why is it so important to have meaning in life? Why do people need to believe that when they die, they’ll go to heaven? Isn’t life good enough without some crazy ass story about where they came from and where they’re going? Why can’t everyone just live with the fact that we’re just here and enjoy it while it lasts?
The reason I ask these questions is because it seems that more bad comes from religion than good. Take a look around. Notice how many people have died due to their beliefs. Look at all the wars that have come, gone, and are still going on in the name of god. Look at how much our lives are restricted by things that are “not moral.” Even our technology is suffering. Why can’t I clone myself if I wanted to? Why can’t we use stem cells to help people? Why can’t a rape victim get an abortion? And why can’t an 80 year old man dying from some awful disease put himself out of his misery?
There is so much physical evidence that disproves religion, yet, people hang on and whole heartedly believe these fantastical stories about god(s) and the afterlife. It really gets to me because regardless of the fact that I don’t believe in it, I’m forced to live my life as if I do.
EDITED_BY: ICoN (1075491940)
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
GOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
I wasnt saying I had no beliefs of my own and I guess you can see what I believe in that post... But that wasnt the point. I was simply expressing my distaste for people forcing their beliefs on others. Basically, believe what you want, just dont bother me with it.
I wasnt saying I had no beliefs of my own and I guess you can see what I believe in that post... But that wasnt the point. I was simply expressing my distaste for people forcing their beliefs on others. Basically, believe what you want, just dont bother me with it.
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Is trying to share ones faith "bothering" someone? (ICoN, your opinoin will probably be yes, but I hope that I phrased the question so that it is open to everyone, it wasn't just aimed at you... just trying to clearify things incase they are a bit foggy)
Is trying to share ones faith "bothering" someone? (ICoN, your opinoin will probably be yes, but I hope that I phrased the question so that it is open to everyone, it wasn't just aimed at you... just trying to clearify things incase they are a bit foggy)
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
BRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posted:
Ray, I think it ultimately depends on the motivation of the person "sharing".
One morning recently whilst sitting on my bus, a man gets on the bus and starts preaching happiness via christianity - it was 5.30am, the bus was full and he had a trapped audience. I felt many things at being unwillingly confronted by him. He had no right to take advantage of the passengers on the bus like that, especially at that time of the morning ( I believe that dawn is a powerful time and anyone aware of it can feel the immensity of actions at this time). No one said anything to him, most people shook their heads in awkward embarrasment.
I was pleased for the man - glad that he had found happiness in his christian god. I was dismayed that yet another evangelist had the audacity to force religion down people's throats.
If people genuinely want to share their religion and religious experiences with me, then I'm happy to listen and contribute. However if their motivation is in anyway an attempt to convert me, then I feel abused and even less inclined to listen to their babble.
Spirituality is personal, however I (for one) have only been able to formulate my beliefs by sharing philosophies, thoughts and ideas with other people in conjunction with trusting my instincts. Without the dialogue I would be perpetually confused. It needs to be mutual and respectful - people on soapboxes get a big thumbs down from me.
Ray, I think it ultimately depends on the motivation of the person "sharing".
One morning recently whilst sitting on my bus, a man gets on the bus and starts preaching happiness via christianity - it was 5.30am, the bus was full and he had a trapped audience. I felt many things at being unwillingly confronted by him. He had no right to take advantage of the passengers on the bus like that, especially at that time of the morning ( I believe that dawn is a powerful time and anyone aware of it can feel the immensity of actions at this time). No one said anything to him, most people shook their heads in awkward embarrasment.
I was pleased for the man - glad that he had found happiness in his christian god. I was dismayed that yet another evangelist had the audacity to force religion down people's throats.
If people genuinely want to share their religion and religious experiences with me, then I'm happy to listen and contribute. However if their motivation is in anyway an attempt to convert me, then I feel abused and even less inclined to listen to their babble.
Spirituality is personal, however I (for one) have only been able to formulate my beliefs by sharing philosophies, thoughts and ideas with other people in conjunction with trusting my instincts. Without the dialogue I would be perpetually confused. It needs to be mutual and respectful - people on soapboxes get a big thumbs down from me.
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GOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
I was really talking on a bigger scale as mentioned in my examples. Religious beliefs that influence and change the world in essence. No, I dont mind people sharing what they believe with me. But once it goes beyond sharing is when it starts crossing the line.
I was actually born and raised Catholic. Went through 12 years of Catholic school. Look at me now, absolutely no faith in god or religion. Probably has everything to do with the forcing of beliefs.
I was really talking on a bigger scale as mentioned in my examples. Religious beliefs that influence and change the world in essence. No, I dont mind people sharing what they believe with me. But once it goes beyond sharing is when it starts crossing the line.
I was actually born and raised Catholic. Went through 12 years of Catholic school. Look at me now, absolutely no faith in god or religion. Probably has everything to do with the forcing of beliefs.
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
PLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
If it is unwanted information, or is presented in a way that demotes someone's current lifestyle as being somehow inferior to whatever religion/belief you are pushing, then yes, it is bothering. I've been the subject on quite a few occasions of unwanted preaching, and it made me angry.
"You KNOW you're going to Hell, right?"
"If you have nothing to live for past this life, why don't you just kill yourself?"
"...I can't believe you could be so ignorant to think the slice of life you see is the big picture."
Yes, those are quotations from people who have tried to convert me to their religion.
Quote:
Is trying to share ones faith "bothering" someone?
If it is unwanted information, or is presented in a way that demotes someone's current lifestyle as being somehow inferior to whatever religion/belief you are pushing, then yes, it is bothering. I've been the subject on quite a few occasions of unwanted preaching, and it made me angry.
"You KNOW you're going to Hell, right?"
"If you have nothing to live for past this life, why don't you just kill yourself?"
"...I can't believe you could be so ignorant to think the slice of life you see is the big picture."
Yes, those are quotations from people who have tried to convert me to their religion.
SILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
I completly agree with you Flash
Big things start from little things too... things can escalate at an amazing speed
for a long time now I have been spiritually minded, and I feel so much better for it.
I have no tolerance for people that choose to push their religion on me and I find it very disrespectful. I am passionatly spiritual and choose to share that with like minded people, who are open to it, but would never force my values on another who has their own beliefs. To do that in my opinion is to say "your wrong, this is what you should believe in" and thats just rude.
Everyone has their own life experiences and a lot of people turn to reliegion/beliefs for a sense of hope and faith in the good in our lives coming to fruition...
spirituality to me is the sense of self awareness and connecting with love energy and all that is. This upliftes me and makes me more positive.. and if Im smiling through my life then that is a hell of a lot better than being a grumble bum, in my honest opinion
EDITED_BY: Valura (1075432120)
I completly agree with you Flash
Quote:
I was really talking on a bigger scale as mentioned in my examples
Big things start from little things too... things can escalate at an amazing speed
for a long time now I have been spiritually minded, and I feel so much better for it.
I have no tolerance for people that choose to push their religion on me and I find it very disrespectful. I am passionatly spiritual and choose to share that with like minded people, who are open to it, but would never force my values on another who has their own beliefs. To do that in my opinion is to say "your wrong, this is what you should believe in" and thats just rude.
Everyone has their own life experiences and a lot of people turn to reliegion/beliefs for a sense of hope and faith in the good in our lives coming to fruition...
spirituality to me is the sense of self awareness and connecting with love energy and all that is. This upliftes me and makes me more positive.. and if Im smiling through my life then that is a hell of a lot better than being a grumble bum, in my honest opinion
EDITED_BY: Valura (1075432120)
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
It depends on what you mean by "religion." I have very little use for filing into a room with a bunch of pews and listening to mumbo-jumbo in some language I can't understand read out of some 6,000 year-old text that's been mangled over the ages, directed at some old white dude with a flowing beard who lives in the sky.
On the other hand, there IS a world out there that is bigger than anything we can see or detect in our experiments. I know because my father came to visit me after he died to say good bye. And I wasn't imagining it. I was a major skeptic, but there he was.
However, I don't think that there is some ultimate truth that says that certain things are "good" or "bad." There is clearly no god that intervenes in daily life because if there was, Hitler would have gotten the smackdown before he could kill all those people. Either that or that god sucks serious monkey genitals.
But in my meditations, I have felt and tapped into the energy shared by all living things on this world and others. And I have felt other living things on this world...and on others.
It depends on what you mean by "religion." I have very little use for filing into a room with a bunch of pews and listening to mumbo-jumbo in some language I can't understand read out of some 6,000 year-old text that's been mangled over the ages, directed at some old white dude with a flowing beard who lives in the sky.
On the other hand, there IS a world out there that is bigger than anything we can see or detect in our experiments. I know because my father came to visit me after he died to say good bye. And I wasn't imagining it. I was a major skeptic, but there he was.
However, I don't think that there is some ultimate truth that says that certain things are "good" or "bad." There is clearly no god that intervenes in daily life because if there was, Hitler would have gotten the smackdown before he could kill all those people. Either that or that god sucks serious monkey genitals.
But in my meditations, I have felt and tapped into the energy shared by all living things on this world and others. And I have felt other living things on this world...and on others.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
ambiguous
646 posts
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
646 posts
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Posted:
If proper religion didn't condemn me to hell I may have been religious. As is I'm somewhat spiritaul, though for much of my life I've been busy just trying to get by, so whatever powers are out there I apologize if I've been removed.
I still acknowledge something greater, I just think its pompus to believe I know enough to pass it on to others. Religion is very much a double sided sword, its done great good for individuals but at the same time royally screwed up our world.
If proper religion didn't condemn me to hell I may have been religious. As is I'm somewhat spiritaul, though for much of my life I've been busy just trying to get by, so whatever powers are out there I apologize if I've been removed.
I still acknowledge something greater, I just think its pompus to believe I know enough to pass it on to others. Religion is very much a double sided sword, its done great good for individuals but at the same time royally screwed up our world.
_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
umm, i think this might illistrate icons point
T
umm, i think this might illistrate icons point
Quote:
"You give a man a gun and see how quickly his imagination becomes your reality."
Hagbard Celiene in 'Illuminatus'- RAW
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
well, most modern governments have provisions for separation of church from state, not only to protect the government from corruption but to save the church from corruption also.
your right I don't think religion has any place in legislation.
Although all your points (abortion, euthanasia, etc..) do have logical arguements based supposed ethics and morals which are independent of religion, si it's hard to see what legislation is religious in nature and what's not.
Also the only thing I find more irritating then overzealous evangelist christians is overzealous evangelist athiests. Sorry science can be a religion to, and a lot of people worship it. Don't condem my spirituality as believing in fairy tails or things that has been scientifcally disproven. the very essence of religion is faith. It's god damn annoying when athiests can't comprehend this, when they themselves put increadible faith into the principals of science.
No one has proven nor disproven the existance of god.
well, most modern governments have provisions for separation of church from state, not only to protect the government from corruption but to save the church from corruption also.
your right I don't think religion has any place in legislation.
Although all your points (abortion, euthanasia, etc..) do have logical arguements based supposed ethics and morals which are independent of religion, si it's hard to see what legislation is religious in nature and what's not.
Also the only thing I find more irritating then overzealous evangelist christians is overzealous evangelist athiests. Sorry science can be a religion to, and a lot of people worship it. Don't condem my spirituality as believing in fairy tails or things that has been scientifcally disproven. the very essence of religion is faith. It's god damn annoying when athiests can't comprehend this, when they themselves put increadible faith into the principals of science.
No one has proven nor disproven the existance of god.
SILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
Such a refreshing way of looking at it!! good point
Quote:
Also the only thing I find more irritating then overzealous evangelist christians is overzealous evangelist athiests. Sorry science can be a religion to, and a lot of people worship it. Don't condem my spirituality as believing in fairy tails or things that has been scientifcally disproven. the very essence of religion is faith. It's god damn annoying when athiests can't comprehend this, when they themselves put increadible faith into the principals of science.
Such a refreshing way of looking at it!! good point
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
from my point of view spiritually and science complement each other perfectly, i promise ill write a big post explaining why i think this soon but i have to rush to twirlings
from my point of view spiritually and science complement each other perfectly, i promise ill write a big post explaining why i think this soon but i have to rush to twirlings
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
Posted:
Science is based on set patterns and observations. What ever you gave you the idea that it is "true" or "correct". It's a model to explain and predict, just like religion. It just happens to be very accurate, and more naturalistic, thats all (to a point anyway). No, the existence of an infinite something has not been adequately proved or disproved by anyone, and never will be. Even if it COULD be proved, oh great, we proved theres SOMETHING but what is it and why is it? That just raises a whole new set of questions that can't be proved and will just lead to more anger and W.A.R. (We are right). Be happy theists and atheists are still arguing about the simple EXISTENCE of it still and not so much just what properties and plans it has... Those debates get heated usually...
For the most part I agree with the original post though. As a semi-Taoist I don't really see a need to find out where I came from or where I am going. Both will be revealed to me by time, and I'd rather walk my path and have a look around then stumble down it blindly because my mind is too occupied with such questions. I'm not religious, but I'm extremely spiritual. I've read a LOT on different ideas about spirituality, and have come to the conclusion that everyone is very confused about a great many things (religion aside!). No one can give you a definitive answer (At least I don't think so... I lack that whole faith thing), so I've dedicated my path to observing and coming to my own conclusions. Well... I lied, I do have faith. Faith that if there is a personal God, he'd be far happier knowing I used my life the way I have, than how many hours I logged debating his existence.
Which reminds me: stop debating the existence of God and go live my life, dang it! Or at least play with poi for a while.
Science is based on set patterns and observations. What ever you gave you the idea that it is "true" or "correct". It's a model to explain and predict, just like religion. It just happens to be very accurate, and more naturalistic, thats all (to a point anyway). No, the existence of an infinite something has not been adequately proved or disproved by anyone, and never will be. Even if it COULD be proved, oh great, we proved theres SOMETHING but what is it and why is it? That just raises a whole new set of questions that can't be proved and will just lead to more anger and W.A.R. (We are right). Be happy theists and atheists are still arguing about the simple EXISTENCE of it still and not so much just what properties and plans it has... Those debates get heated usually...
For the most part I agree with the original post though. As a semi-Taoist I don't really see a need to find out where I came from or where I am going. Both will be revealed to me by time, and I'd rather walk my path and have a look around then stumble down it blindly because my mind is too occupied with such questions. I'm not religious, but I'm extremely spiritual. I've read a LOT on different ideas about spirituality, and have come to the conclusion that everyone is very confused about a great many things (religion aside!). No one can give you a definitive answer (At least I don't think so... I lack that whole faith thing), so I've dedicated my path to observing and coming to my own conclusions. Well... I lied, I do have faith. Faith that if there is a personal God, he'd be far happier knowing I used my life the way I have, than how many hours I logged debating his existence.
Which reminds me: stop debating the existence of God and go live my life, dang it! Or at least play with poi for a while.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
You are not the only one.
Science & Religions are very different.
If you can show comprehensive empirical evidence that a scientific idea is wrong, then they change their minds. This is happening all the time.
If you can show comprehensive empirical evidence that a religious idea is wrong, then they continue believing for thousands of years anyway.
(transubstantiation, creationism, non-acceptance of copernican cosmology etc)
So YES, science is based on faith, but just the one.
The faith that the scientific method works.
And it does, as the pc you're using proves.
You are not the only one.
Science & Religions are very different.
If you can show comprehensive empirical evidence that a scientific idea is wrong, then they change their minds. This is happening all the time.
If you can show comprehensive empirical evidence that a religious idea is wrong, then they continue believing for thousands of years anyway.
(transubstantiation, creationism, non-acceptance of copernican cosmology etc)
So YES, science is based on faith, but just the one.
The faith that the scientific method works.
And it does, as the pc you're using proves.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
Flash - beautifully put!
Flash - beautifully put!
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
I can't believe you even posted this - have you been completely oblivious to all the threads about respect and decency. I don't care what you think - that is no way to start a post, people have a right to believe whatever they want and if you have a problem with it then at the very least you should find a constructive way of discussing it NOT starting a thread with
'Am I the only one who thinks all religion is crap? '
Telling people they are wrong is not appropritate ANYWHERE. You might be right and there may be nothing to life, or they might be right, and both of you may have definitave proof, but that makes no difference, tolerence is vital if anyone is to get along here. And did you every think that religious people might be trying to convert you because they CARE and they want you to shre in thir joy?
I just can't believe you even started this thred, it was not the way to start a constructive discussion - it seems more like some kind of witch hunt to me.
I apologise for the angry tone of this post but i just can't help myself - i'd also like to say that none of this was supposed to be personal, i just think that the way this subject was approached is inappropriate and insulting to a vast number of people.
Quote:
Am I the only one who thinks all religion is crap? Every where I go there are people talking about their beliefs. Not only that, but they use their beliefs to try and govern other people’s lives. Why? Why is it so important to have meaning in life? Why do people need to believe that when they die, they’ll go to heaven? Isn’t life good enough without some crazy ass story about where they came from and where they’re going? Why can’t everyone just live with the fact that we’re just here and enjoy it while it lasts?
I can't believe you even posted this - have you been completely oblivious to all the threads about respect and decency. I don't care what you think - that is no way to start a post, people have a right to believe whatever they want and if you have a problem with it then at the very least you should find a constructive way of discussing it NOT starting a thread with
'Am I the only one who thinks all religion is crap? '
Telling people they are wrong is not appropritate ANYWHERE. You might be right and there may be nothing to life, or they might be right, and both of you may have definitave proof, but that makes no difference, tolerence is vital if anyone is to get along here. And did you every think that religious people might be trying to convert you because they CARE and they want you to shre in thir joy?
I just can't believe you even started this thred, it was not the way to start a constructive discussion - it seems more like some kind of witch hunt to me.
I apologise for the angry tone of this post but i just can't help myself - i'd also like to say that none of this was supposed to be personal, i just think that the way this subject was approached is inappropriate and insulting to a vast number of people.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
-er-pops
206 posts
Location: UK
206 posts
Location: UK
Posted:
The answer is No, you are not the only one. Haver not got time to read the rest of the the thread and I would rant on but you seem to have exactly the same views as me so there is no need. When people start getting religious on me I get real mad and start seeing red. Sorry if you are religous but I personally know of nothing more pointless than religion. A basic understanding of right and wrong is all you need.
The answer is No, you are not the only one. Haver not got time to read the rest of the the thread and I would rant on but you seem to have exactly the same views as me so there is no need. When people start getting religious on me I get real mad and start seeing red. Sorry if you are religous but I personally know of nothing more pointless than religion. A basic understanding of right and wrong is all you need.
Poi... it's an obsession.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
first of all, yes, i thought the original post was a bit strongly worded. However he did include a warning that those with religious beleifs may be offended. perhaps he should also have posted this in War Topics (where any thread likely to provoke angry responses should be quarantined). But i totally understand his strength of feeling. Realising that everything you have been taught is a lie after having a religious upbringing tends to really irritate some people. Can't imagine why
.
second, i believe telling people they are wrong is appropriate ANYWHERE that people are wrong, particularly if their wrongness is having detrimental effects on others.
thirdly, You claim atheists believe there is "nothing to life"?
i find that the most offensive thing i've seen on hop in a long time.
Quote:
Telling people they are wrong is not appropritate ANYWHERE. You might be right and there may be nothing to life, or they might be right, and both of you may have definitave proof, but that makes no difference, tolerence is vital if anyone is to get along here. And did you every think that religious people might be trying to convert you because they CARE and they want you to shre in thir joy?
first of all, yes, i thought the original post was a bit strongly worded. However he did include a warning that those with religious beleifs may be offended. perhaps he should also have posted this in War Topics (where any thread likely to provoke angry responses should be quarantined). But i totally understand his strength of feeling. Realising that everything you have been taught is a lie after having a religious upbringing tends to really irritate some people. Can't imagine why
.second, i believe telling people they are wrong is appropriate ANYWHERE that people are wrong, particularly if their wrongness is having detrimental effects on others.
thirdly, You claim atheists believe there is "nothing to life"?
i find that the most offensive thing i've seen on hop in a long time.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
ok, apologies for the angriness, seriously i got very carried away.
I didn't mean telling people they are wrong is wrong generally, my point is that no matter what you might think about religious people you CAN'T prove they're wrong and that's why it's offensive. You are assuming that you have the ultimate truth (which you might) but you don't know that for sure, or at least, you don't know and more surely than they do. And i don't really think that giving a warning is good enough. This kind of thig could easily be taken as racist (or whatever the word is) and just shouldn't be said - or should be presented in a way that makes it clear you are not trying to be aggressive and hurt people.
Just as a reminder, this is what Pele said in the respect on HoP thread;
'There are people here who are dead set it seems on forcing others to see their opinion as the better one. If you disagree fine. Put up your opinion with your supporting statements. '
I'm not trying to argue about wether religion is right or wrong or who can prove what, what i'm trying to say is that telling people that something they believe in is wrong just can't be done, because you don't Know they are wrong.
thirdly, You claim atheists believe there is "nothing to life"?
i find that the most offensive thing i've seen on hop in a long time
Sorry about that - i didn't mean atheist don't have lives or don't get anything out of them, i meant that atheists don't believe in anything more than this world - which of course is the defination of an atheist!
I'm not trying to argue here and i'm sorry i got angry, i was simply trying to point out that starting a thread with the words
'Am I the only one who thinks all religion is crap? '
is probably one of the best ways to state a very one sided view and upset and awful lot of people. I just coudn't see a reason why it had to be done in this way instead of trying to be constructive.
ok, apologies for the angriness, seriously i got very carried away.
I didn't mean telling people they are wrong is wrong generally, my point is that no matter what you might think about religious people you CAN'T prove they're wrong and that's why it's offensive. You are assuming that you have the ultimate truth (which you might) but you don't know that for sure, or at least, you don't know and more surely than they do. And i don't really think that giving a warning is good enough. This kind of thig could easily be taken as racist (or whatever the word is) and just shouldn't be said - or should be presented in a way that makes it clear you are not trying to be aggressive and hurt people.
Just as a reminder, this is what Pele said in the respect on HoP thread;
'There are people here who are dead set it seems on forcing others to see their opinion as the better one. If you disagree fine. Put up your opinion with your supporting statements. '
I'm not trying to argue about wether religion is right or wrong or who can prove what, what i'm trying to say is that telling people that something they believe in is wrong just can't be done, because you don't Know they are wrong.
thirdly, You claim atheists believe there is "nothing to life"?
i find that the most offensive thing i've seen on hop in a long time
Sorry about that - i didn't mean atheist don't have lives or don't get anything out of them, i meant that atheists don't believe in anything more than this world - which of course is the defination of an atheist!
I'm not trying to argue here and i'm sorry i got angry, i was simply trying to point out that starting a thread with the words
'Am I the only one who thinks all religion is crap? '
is probably one of the best ways to state a very one sided view and upset and awful lot of people. I just coudn't see a reason why it had to be done in this way instead of trying to be constructive.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
-er-pops
206 posts
Location: UK
206 posts
Location: UK
Posted:
Everytime that someone states their point of view, it is a one sided point of view. It is their side that they are expressing.
Admittedly because we dont agree with religion people get offended. For this I am sorry. If people are freely allowed to state their religious beliefs I hope that this means that we are allowed to state our unreligious ones .
Everytime that someone states their point of view, it is a one sided point of view. It is their side that they are expressing.
Admittedly because we dont agree with religion people get offended. For this I am sorry. If people are freely allowed to state their religious beliefs I hope that this means that we are allowed to state our unreligious ones .
Poi... it's an obsession.
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
of course state them - i freely admit i don't believe in any kind of god, but i don't go around saying
'aren't all people who believe in god stupid - i can't believe they're so dumb.
see the difference?
of course state them - i freely admit i don't believe in any kind of god, but i don't go around saying
'aren't all people who believe in god stupid - i can't believe they're so dumb.
see the difference?
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
*As a mod*
Please everyone keep their tones in check. If this is a thread that you feel is disturbing, please do not read it. The discussion is respectful and calm, and it should stay that way.
*Mod-dom out*
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
1. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
2. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
3. A set of principles or beliefs.
Seems that you can have faith without religion, but not religion without faith. Then there is
spir·i·tu·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-ch-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. 2.Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
4. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
5. Of, from, or relating to God, deific.
This seems to encompass them both.
I have family members who is born again pentacostle evangalist, and it can actually be physically draining to be around them. While they expect others to respect their beliefs they have none for others, and it is hard. My niece, whom I love very much, is not allowed to come to my house to play with my son because we are not of the correct faith and so she might be exposed to something "evil". I am very happy that they found a belief that they are comfortable. I am very happy that they feel some sort of comfort, peace and joy from it. However, what is good for one is not what is best for another. I understand them wanting to share it because they care, but if they truly cared, then they would listen when I tell them what they do makes me uncomfortable and hurts me.
There have been so many great points made here.
In FF story I have tremendous respect for that man getting up and doing that. It is great he has something to believe in, which in this day and age seems rare. It is also great he had the courage to do so. I would be afraid someone would shoot me to tell the truth. I think it sucks that he felt as if everyone needed to be subjected to that. I agree with Flash that soapbox preaching is a grave turn-off.
I think it is important for people to have faith of some kind or another. I think it is something deeply personal and that if you are lucky enough to find like minds, then it is wonderful to share. I feel that in a respectful converstation alot can be learned.
I do not feel it is "crap".
I do not feel it is everywhere, mainly because I am pretty decent at tuning it out, which is really what I feel people should do (except in the bus situation at which point, FF is far more gracious than I. Annoyance factor would have gripped me to telling him to sit down and shut up probably). Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to their beliefs.
As for religion and state. There is alot of legislation out there which states that they are seperate, but then actions speak alot louder than written words, which is why "In God We Trust" written on US money is being taken to court, or kids get suspended from school for wearing pentacles and black nailpolish, or Bush feels that he should suddenly overturn policies because his religious views seem to be more important than the people that he governs over (as per in his State of the Union address recently one of his political standpoints being "Protecting the Sanctity of Marriage as a foundation of the United States", which seems to be in direct response to the recent addition of states allowing Gay Marriages). This is something not political in nature at all, but more religious in basis and yet seperation of church and state it not happening there. It is all about who is in what position of power at the time as to whether they are truly seperated. IMHO.
Keep the conversation going, please keep it respectful and mellow.
Thanks,
Pele
*As a mod*
Please everyone keep their tones in check. If this is a thread that you feel is disturbing, please do not read it. The discussion is respectful and calm, and it should stay that way.
*Mod-dom out*
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
1. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
2. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
3. A set of principles or beliefs.
Seems that you can have faith without religion, but not religion without faith. Then there is
spir·i·tu·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spr-ch-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. 2.Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
4. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
5. Of, from, or relating to God, deific.
This seems to encompass them both.
I have family members who is born again pentacostle evangalist, and it can actually be physically draining to be around them. While they expect others to respect their beliefs they have none for others, and it is hard. My niece, whom I love very much, is not allowed to come to my house to play with my son because we are not of the correct faith and so she might be exposed to something "evil". I am very happy that they found a belief that they are comfortable. I am very happy that they feel some sort of comfort, peace and joy from it. However, what is good for one is not what is best for another. I understand them wanting to share it because they care, but if they truly cared, then they would listen when I tell them what they do makes me uncomfortable and hurts me.
There have been so many great points made here.
In FF story I have tremendous respect for that man getting up and doing that. It is great he has something to believe in, which in this day and age seems rare. It is also great he had the courage to do so. I would be afraid someone would shoot me to tell the truth. I think it sucks that he felt as if everyone needed to be subjected to that. I agree with Flash that soapbox preaching is a grave turn-off.
I think it is important for people to have faith of some kind or another. I think it is something deeply personal and that if you are lucky enough to find like minds, then it is wonderful to share. I feel that in a respectful converstation alot can be learned.
I do not feel it is "crap".
I do not feel it is everywhere, mainly because I am pretty decent at tuning it out, which is really what I feel people should do (except in the bus situation at which point, FF is far more gracious than I. Annoyance factor would have gripped me to telling him to sit down and shut up probably). Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to their beliefs.
As for religion and state. There is alot of legislation out there which states that they are seperate, but then actions speak alot louder than written words, which is why "In God We Trust" written on US money is being taken to court, or kids get suspended from school for wearing pentacles and black nailpolish, or Bush feels that he should suddenly overturn policies because his religious views seem to be more important than the people that he governs over (as per in his State of the Union address recently one of his political standpoints being "Protecting the Sanctity of Marriage as a foundation of the United States", which seems to be in direct response to the recent addition of states allowing Gay Marriages). This is something not political in nature at all, but more religious in basis and yet seperation of church and state it not happening there. It is all about who is in what position of power at the time as to whether they are truly seperated. IMHO.
Keep the conversation going, please keep it respectful and mellow.
Thanks,
Pele
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
Exactly.
I'm sorry i got angry with you.
Can't we have both? why does anyone have to be wrong. Please don't say things like religion is crap because you know is a generalisation. I promise i won't get uppity again.
Exactly.
I'm sorry i got angry with you.
Can't we have both? why does anyone have to be wrong. Please don't say things like religion is crap because you know is a generalisation. I promise i won't get uppity again.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
-er-pops
206 posts
Location: UK
206 posts
Location: UK
Posted:
I think he said it was crap because people get killed over religion. Now I dont want to be verbally killed over my non religion so I am going to keep my mouth shut now as this is one of the rare subjects that I get passionate about. Thanks Pele for keeping us in check.
Calmly leaving the discussion
Wizz
I think he said it was crap because people get killed over religion. Now I dont want to be verbally killed over my non religion so I am going to keep my mouth shut now as this is one of the rare subjects that I get passionate about. Thanks Pele for keeping us in check.
Calmly leaving the discussion
Wizz
Poi... it's an obsession.
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
s'cool Tao Star, sorry if i was snappy
i've been told quite a few times that atheists think life is empty and meaningless.
It tends to make me very grouchy.
in my view, i believe life to be naturally occuring rather than manufactured, and therefore more valuable
s'cool Tao Star, sorry if i was snappy
i've been told quite a few times that atheists think life is empty and meaningless.
It tends to make me very grouchy.
in my view, i believe life to be naturally occuring rather than manufactured, and therefore more valuable
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
Ahhhhh, all friends again!
Ahhhhh, all friends again!
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Nobody likes to be told that they are wrong. Nobody likes to be told that according to someone’s belief that they are going to a very bad place. Nobody likes to be told that they are wrong for telling people they are wrong.
It is cool to blow off steam, I know that I get frustrated when people tell me that what I do is wrong, immoral and the list could go on, but we all need to respect each others boundaries.
If I care about someone enough to tell them that they had to worship Barney Rubble lest they rot in a tar pit for all eternity, then they should at least be happy that I cared about them enough. Now they may disagree and think that Fred is the way to go and that it is absurd to think otherwise. The fact that someone would try to convert you to Barneyisim is just so rude and how could they and yadda yadda yadda.
Hey just be glad they care enough to try to help you out, instead of keeping it all to themselves and letting you rot in a tar pit.
You may feel that they don't respect you, but in all honesty they respect you enough to tell you how they feel, for that you should be happy. Not complain about how rude they were or how it was wrong of them to push their religion on you. Keep in mind that they don't think that they are forcing anything on you. To them this all makes perfect sense and why in the world you would or wouldn't believe in Barney is just so confusing and they want to help you.
Try to look at the situation through their eyes, they should do the same but you have to do it regardless of what they do.
Nobody likes to be told that they are wrong. Nobody likes to be told that according to someone’s belief that they are going to a very bad place. Nobody likes to be told that they are wrong for telling people they are wrong.
It is cool to blow off steam, I know that I get frustrated when people tell me that what I do is wrong, immoral and the list could go on, but we all need to respect each others boundaries.
If I care about someone enough to tell them that they had to worship Barney Rubble lest they rot in a tar pit for all eternity, then they should at least be happy that I cared about them enough. Now they may disagree and think that Fred is the way to go and that it is absurd to think otherwise. The fact that someone would try to convert you to Barneyisim is just so rude and how could they and yadda yadda yadda.
Hey just be glad they care enough to try to help you out, instead of keeping it all to themselves and letting you rot in a tar pit.
You may feel that they don't respect you, but in all honesty they respect you enough to tell you how they feel, for that you should be happy. Not complain about how rude they were or how it was wrong of them to push their religion on you. Keep in mind that they don't think that they are forcing anything on you. To them this all makes perfect sense and why in the world you would or wouldn't believe in Barney is just so confusing and they want to help you.
Try to look at the situation through their eyes, they should do the same but you have to do it regardless of what they do.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
BRONZE Member
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
6,140 posts
Location: Over There, United Kingdom
Posted:
I am reading a very interesting book at the moment called "The Hiram Key". It goes into detail about where religion stems from (although that is not the point of the book - just some research they had to do to find out about something else -all confusing).It also goes into how the Roman Catholic church obmitted important facts from the bible (did you know that Barabbas - the "bad" guy from the story of Jesus, his name means Jesus son-of-god, and that Jesus Christ's meant Messiah, which in those days meant King-to-be. So in actual fact the Jews saved Jesus son of god!)
Many of the religions have been changed over the years, important texts doctored and things blown out of proportion. I agree that religion may seem "stupid" to people who have no faith in something (as in a god). Loads of people fighting over something you can't see or feel, not doing any activities on the day of Sabbath (that the Roman Catholic church put back to a Sunday to co-operate with the previous Roman religious day) because someone who has been dead for thousands of years said not to and so on. But to some people it seems funny to not believe in something with so much history, and so many millions of people who believe in it, also has science ever proved that there is not a God? A different level of being once you are dead?
I am reading a very interesting book at the moment called "The Hiram Key". It goes into detail about where religion stems from (although that is not the point of the book - just some research they had to do to find out about something else -all confusing).It also goes into how the Roman Catholic church obmitted important facts from the bible (did you know that Barabbas - the "bad" guy from the story of Jesus, his name means Jesus son-of-god, and that Jesus Christ's meant Messiah, which in those days meant King-to-be. So in actual fact the Jews saved Jesus son of god!)
Many of the religions have been changed over the years, important texts doctored and things blown out of proportion. I agree that religion may seem "stupid" to people who have no faith in something (as in a god). Loads of people fighting over something you can't see or feel, not doing any activities on the day of Sabbath (that the Roman Catholic church put back to a Sunday to co-operate with the previous Roman religious day) because someone who has been dead for thousands of years said not to and so on. But to some people it seems funny to not believe in something with so much history, and so many millions of people who believe in it, also has science ever proved that there is not a God? A different level of being once you are dead?
Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...
GOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
See, the thing I dont get is everone says "It cant be disproven." But I think the lack of evidence in support of religious belief is disproving it. It just baffles me that the majority of people on this planet live their lives around something based purely on faith.
See, the thing I dont get is everone says "It cant be disproven." But I think the lack of evidence in support of religious belief is disproving it. It just baffles me that the majority of people on this planet live their lives around something based purely on faith.
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
Does it bother you that people need to believe in something sometimes to find a reason to continue to live or to deal with hardships in their life?
While I don't necessarily believe in a single God, I do understand why faith and belief is important for some people. Said faiths helps them through the rought times in their life, and also helps them find meaning when they think the world is an awful place.
I think that if someone can get through lifes tragedies on a postive note, then however they chose to get there is a good thing.
Does it bother you that people need to believe in something sometimes to find a reason to continue to live or to deal with hardships in their life?
While I don't necessarily believe in a single God, I do understand why faith and belief is important for some people. Said faiths helps them through the rought times in their life, and also helps them find meaning when they think the world is an awful place.
I think that if someone can get through lifes tragedies on a postive note, then however they chose to get there is a good thing.
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