Forums > Social Discussion > Medicinal Herbs in the EU
Login/Join to ParticipateStargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Just because it's been going around the net for some time.
There currently is a directive being in the final stages of completion within the EU "government" regarding medicinal herbs.
Claims now are that as an effect they will will be "disappearing" in the EU.
Read the infowars article here. This article is one of the many recent misinformations and examples of bad journalism in this regard.
Am I doubting that the pharma lobby is trying to make a gain? No. Am I opposing the argument that classifying medicinal herbs as drugs and requiring them to be - extensively and expensively - tested (as drugs currently are) might wipe them off the market? No.
So what is my "rant" about?
For decades the naturopathetic lobby - in their herbal haze - has tried exactly that: asked the respective authorities to finally accept that herbal remedies are drugs and potent medicines. Partly in an effort to prove that they are as good as doctors when it comes to prescriptions, partly so their patients can reclaim the money spent on these remedies, partly to prove the point that herbal remedies can have as much "healing impact" as the "chemical bombs" manufactured by the pharmaceutical industry.
Well guys, guess what? It backfired. And now you're standing there, bamboozled by the fact that you can't have tea without drinking.
Of course, if a herbal remedy should be classified as a drug, it needs to get properly tested. Because exactly this is what happens with (potent) drugs. Yes - it costs money. Yes - it costs a lot of it.
But your claim is that your leaves are as good as pills - so prove it. Clean up your act. Because that's what the pharma lobby had to do - for our protection.
Do I consider chemical drugs safe? No, I don't. Am I a pharma buddy? No I'm not.
It doesn't matter whether MINT has been around for a couple of thousand years prior. You say it is a medical herb - so classify it.
[sidenote: Oh and then you take some herbal extract, you water it down... the potent is up to 1:50.000 (in extremes)...
Let's take a C30. The likelihood to find !one molecule! of the original extract in one small bottle of remedy is 1 : 10(potent60-24) = 1 : 10(potent 36). It means you are taking 1 part of the remedy, add 100 parts milksugar or alcohol - and repeat the process 200 times. In comparison: Lottery... 6numbersoutof49... chances to get 6 numbers right in one field is 1:14.000.000 and that is still more than finding ONE MOLECULE of the original brew in a bottle of homeopathic C30 remedy... fathom that. /sidenote]
Do I think natural remedies are cowsP - no I don't. I would even say that they are much safer than chemicals. Sometimes you need chemicals and sometimes you need herbals - I'm happy there is both.
But if people claim that they are potent remedies - and as potent as chemicals, they should prove it and you should adhere to the same standards demanded from a chemical lab.
So in effect, the people to be grateful for is the naturopathic lobby as much as the chemical one.
Thanks.
Just because it's been going around the net for some time.
There currently is a directive being in the final stages of completion within the EU "government" regarding medicinal herbs.
Claims now are that as an effect they will will be "disappearing" in the EU.
Read the infowars article here. This article is one of the many recent misinformations and examples of bad journalism in this regard.
Am I doubting that the pharma lobby is trying to make a gain? No. Am I opposing the argument that classifying medicinal herbs as drugs and requiring them to be - extensively and expensively - tested (as drugs currently are) might wipe them off the market? No.
So what is my "rant" about?
For decades the naturopathetic lobby - in their herbal haze - has tried exactly that: asked the respective authorities to finally accept that herbal remedies are drugs and potent medicines. Partly in an effort to prove that they are as good as doctors when it comes to prescriptions, partly so their patients can reclaim the money spent on these remedies, partly to prove the point that herbal remedies can have as much "healing impact" as the "chemical bombs" manufactured by the pharmaceutical industry.
Well guys, guess what? It backfired. And now you're standing there, bamboozled by the fact that you can't have tea without drinking.
Of course, if a herbal remedy should be classified as a drug, it needs to get properly tested. Because exactly this is what happens with (potent) drugs. Yes - it costs money. Yes - it costs a lot of it.
But your claim is that your leaves are as good as pills - so prove it. Clean up your act. Because that's what the pharma lobby had to do - for our protection.
Do I consider chemical drugs safe? No, I don't. Am I a pharma buddy? No I'm not.
It doesn't matter whether MINT has been around for a couple of thousand years prior. You say it is a medical herb - so classify it.
[sidenote: Oh and then you take some herbal extract, you water it down... the potent is up to 1:50.000 (in extremes)...
Let's take a C30. The likelihood to find !one molecule! of the original extract in one small bottle of remedy is 1 : 10(potent60-24) = 1 : 10(potent 36). It means you are taking 1 part of the remedy, add 100 parts milksugar or alcohol - and repeat the process 200 times. In comparison: Lottery... 6numbersoutof49... chances to get 6 numbers right in one field is 1:14.000.000 and that is still more than finding ONE MOLECULE of the original brew in a bottle of homeopathic C30 remedy... fathom that. /sidenote]
Do I think natural remedies are cowsP - no I don't. I would even say that they are much safer than chemicals. Sometimes you need chemicals and sometimes you need herbals - I'm happy there is both.
But if people claim that they are potent remedies - and as potent as chemicals, they should prove it and you should adhere to the same standards demanded from a chemical lab.
So in effect, the people to be grateful for is the naturopathic lobby as much as the chemical one.
Thanks.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
I have to agree Tom. there is nothing to stop people taking herbs to improve their own health but if it's to become big business and sold with the tagline of being a "treatment" I agree it should be regulated the same as any other oral medicine.
I have to agree Tom. there is nothing to stop people taking herbs to improve their own health but if it's to become big business and sold with the tagline of being a "treatment" I agree it should be regulated the same as any other oral medicine.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
SILVER Member
member
118 posts
Location: England (UK)
member
118 posts
Location: England (UK)
Posted:
excuse me if im putting my oar in where its not needed as i havnt read all the thread but i read a book on homeopathy and how it shouldn't work. One theory put forward was that water or alcohol can actually have its "energy" changed. And by energy im not talking spirtualistic bull**** i mean its bonds can be changed by what has been contained in it. If anyones interested in this its a book called "13 impossible things"
excuse me if im putting my oar in where its not needed as i havnt read all the thread but i read a book on homeopathy and how it shouldn't work. One theory put forward was that water or alcohol can actually have its "energy" changed. And by energy im not talking spirtualistic bull**** i mean its bonds can be changed by what has been contained in it. If anyones interested in this its a book called "13 impossible things"
fire is alive. it lives and breathes. it consumes and destroys. but we control it and live with it, we are fire dancers
stranger
2 posts
2 posts
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Paddington Bearexcuse me if im putting my oar in where its not needed as i havnt read all the thread but i read a book on homeopathy and how it shouldn't work. One theory put forward was that water or alcohol can actually have its "energy" changed. And by energy im not talking spirtualistic bull**** i mean its bonds can be changed by what has been contained in it. If anyones interested in this its a book called "13 impossible things"
I've heard about this theory. However, as long as there is no valid analytical method of showing or quantifying the change in the state of energy, I'd rather question it. In fact, I wonder if a homeopath himself was able to distinguish tap water from highly diluted homeopathic medicine, both presented in identical bottles in a thimblerigger - like way.
Originally Posted By: Paddington Bearexcuse me if im putting my oar in where its not needed as i havnt read all the thread but i read a book on homeopathy and how it shouldn't work. One theory put forward was that water or alcohol can actually have its "energy" changed. And by energy im not talking spirtualistic bull**** i mean its bonds can be changed by what has been contained in it. If anyones interested in this its a book called "13 impossible things"
I've heard about this theory. However, as long as there is no valid analytical method of showing or quantifying the change in the state of energy, I'd rather question it. In fact, I wonder if a homeopath himself was able to distinguish tap water from highly diluted homeopathic medicine, both presented in identical bottles in a thimblerigger - like way.
GOLD Member
enthusiast
378 posts
Location: NSW, Australia
enthusiast
378 posts
Location: NSW, Australia
Posted:
There was a (I think UK based) study recently published on people seeing homeopaths and comparing them with people who just had standard NHS treatment for GP type ailments (ie vague, ongoing ill health, no clear cut things needing specific treatment).
group A had standard NHS care,
group B saw a homeopath and were treated with homeopathic remedies
group C saw a homeopath and were treated with coloured water.
Groups B & C did as well as each other and somewhat better than group A.
Which lead the study authors to conclude that having a sympathetic and caring listener helped, but the homeopathic remedies did nothing.
About what I would have expected, YMMV.
Also wrt safeness: to my understanding anything that has a real effect, can also have a side effect, and is likely to be toxic in overdose. That applies to herbs just as much as lab produced chemicals. Also, some drugs (digitalis, curare, others I have forgot) were originally herbal in origin. Western medicine has moved to the purified form because the concentration varied 100 fold from plant to plant, making it very hard to set a dose using herbs.
I think some herbs are probably active, and think they should be subject to the same controls pharmoactive chemicals are.
There was a (I think UK based) study recently published on people seeing homeopaths and comparing them with people who just had standard NHS treatment for GP type ailments (ie vague, ongoing ill health, no clear cut things needing specific treatment).
group A had standard NHS care,
group B saw a homeopath and were treated with homeopathic remedies
group C saw a homeopath and were treated with coloured water.
Groups B & C did as well as each other and somewhat better than group A.
Which lead the study authors to conclude that having a sympathetic and caring listener helped, but the homeopathic remedies did nothing.
About what I would have expected, YMMV.
Also wrt safeness: to my understanding anything that has a real effect, can also have a side effect, and is likely to be toxic in overdose. That applies to herbs just as much as lab produced chemicals. Also, some drugs (digitalis, curare, others I have forgot) were originally herbal in origin. Western medicine has moved to the purified form because the concentration varied 100 fold from plant to plant, making it very hard to set a dose using herbs.
I think some herbs are probably active, and think they should be subject to the same controls pharmoactive chemicals are.
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
A reason I believe that herbal remedies need to be monitored is that they can interfere with chemical remedies. Maybe people might think that it's ok to continue to take herbal remedies while they're taking chemical ones when really it's not - but because there's not much in the way of herbal regulations they're not aware of this.
For example, iron supplements (and other things, I think calcium is one) can mask the effect of antibiotics.
***EDIT***
Just came across this: St Johns Wort could interfere with the Pill
EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1291620254)
EDIT_REASON: found something
A reason I believe that herbal remedies need to be monitored is that they can interfere with chemical remedies. Maybe people might think that it's ok to continue to take herbal remedies while they're taking chemical ones when really it's not - but because there's not much in the way of herbal regulations they're not aware of this.
For example, iron supplements (and other things, I think calcium is one) can mask the effect of antibiotics.
***EDIT***
Just came across this: St Johns Wort could interfere with the Pill
EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1291620254)
EDIT_REASON: found something
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
YAY! Soon the days of not wearing gloves and smoking pot while clipping medicinal marijuana in California will too be over [/totally random and unrelated post]
YAY! Soon the days of not wearing gloves and smoking pot while clipping medicinal marijuana in California will too be over
[/totally random and unrelated post] the best smiles are the ones you lead to
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