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Forums > Advanced Staff moves > advanced staff juggling ... lets go mad !!

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entheogen
entheogen

member
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 4th Mar 2005
Total posts: 173
Posted:I think its time to restart the staff juggling thread in the advanced forum.

Since quite a few ideas were mentioned in the old thread that don`t seem to really fit in a beginners section.

I would really appreciate if people would post there ideas.
But do me a favor and make a distinction between claiming
to really have a move and random ideas.
it will help reduce misunderstandings
wink
And it will give us a better over view where people are.

To get you started :
I was playing around with a lot of 531522 variations

one is (i think) quite interesting
you know the one throw were you throw a staff as a waist cross and catch it with the other hand on the opposite side of the waist
use it as the 3
it is fun biggrin


'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:lol ill stick to old school juggling patterns thanks guys cos all of the above just turns me right off


Konstantin
journeyman
Location: Vilnius
Member Since: 8th Jun 2007
Total posts: 66
Posted:I've put some juggling in our performance in talent show this Sunday



enjoy!

and there's voting now, would be cool if you support.
I've posted more info in Video thread
http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/923761.html#Post923761
br>
thanks!



borganique
borganique

member
Location: Cornwall
Member Since: 6th Jan 2006
Total posts: 154
Posted:siteswaps eh, i'm sure willworkforfood gave us all a lovely link for iteswaps some time ago, or someone did on this thread.
as a juggler, and contact staffer for oodles before staff juggling, both physical description and notation work fine for me, tim, stop being stuffy :), even backcrosses is a siteswap, 333 and you do lots of 42, you just choose not to call it that.
2's should really be a very low throw, jugglers have just got lazy, but thrown 2's are coming back into fashion. with staffs, i've generally treated 2's as a half spin in the same hand.. see my video 4x2 for example.
relative height, not number of rotations is the best way to separate numbers, i could throw a floaty single whilst others would throw a double or triple etc.
regarding 'french cascade' the 32 52 question, i say its just 333 as there isn't a stop and hold like there would be in 522 (not 52) tim often does more of a 522 though he wouldn't like to admit it wink



tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:From my understanding backcrosses aren't a site-swap, a site-swap is a pattern that exists through the process of using site-swap notation to create new patterns, backcrosses are hundreds if not thousands of years old and therefore not a site swap, they can however be notated as a site swap but never called one, but by the un-informed wink

I have no idea what a 42 to is but I guarantee to you that it was in existence long before site-swaps existed, I have never created a trick or copied a trick that was created using site-swap theory to find space and time for a throw or catch and I probably never will.......

Im sure I do 522, or 52 whatever they are (gee isnt this site-swap notation useful!?! Even whilst attacking my opinions on the matter confusion seems to arise wink )...... Im pretty sure all tricks can be notated by a site-swap notation so yes you can say that I do them if it makes you feel better and I am very happy to admit it!!! However I dont choose to use site-swap notation as the patterns are not site-swaps, my point once again to be very clear is......


A, I think site-swap notation for staff juggling confuses something that is really actually quite simple and not in need of precise definition. If you read the above thread it seems most people dont really understand site-swaps so they get it wrong which cause confusions and posts that do very little for the art of throwing and catching staffs. Also whilst you may find it comforting to give backcrosses the number 333....for me that is both pointless and incomplete, surely I can throw a 333 without doing a backcross? In fact cant I do lots of totally different tricks that can all be described as 333?


B, and this point is subjective to my own personal taste, I have not seen a single site-swap with staffs that I really like and certainly havent seen one I like aesthetically as much as the shower, the French cascade or backcrosses. This is my opinion and I am happy to celebrate the difference of opinion but to call me stuffy is just silly because Im not stuffy at all, I have strong and hopefully reasonably well informed opinion that you disagree with......Its not your fault that you are wrong bless you and one day with luck and influence from greater minds you just may learn wink.


So whilst I dont want everyone to just lean old school tricks like the ones mentioned above, and I am happy for people to train in whatever way they want.... It confuses me that people are so keen to use site-swaps when they dont seem to help with communication and they IMO dont produce the most aesthetically nice tricks. For those of you who want to know who am I to have these opinions well its a fair question and if you guys hurry up and get your videos to the great Johnny Fettuccini, then you will get to see my attempt at moving staff juggling in a different direction and my staffs can do the talking for me. Or in other words I AM RIGHT AND ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE IS JUST PLAIN WRONG
wink wink wink



kevstaff
journeyman

Member Since: 24th Jun 2006
Total posts: 51
Posted:Hey!

Where are we on the juggling staff video? I was injured and I am just starting to get better, so I'm considering sending some footage! I'd love to actually is it too late?

And on the Site swap subject, my opinion is that siteswap is a tool, it has proven to be very useful for some people.
I can understand easily that many jugglers don't think it's worth learning because, obviously, you can still do many beautiful things without knowing about SS.

However I do not understand the "active strike" against it. It's not very complicated and it's a good tool.
It's like, a bunch of people having a very good life, and not wanting to learn how to read.

"Hell no, that is stupid, we've come this far without reading, I see no reason why we should start now!"
"Yeah, but you'll see it is useful sometimes"
"Drop it, idiot, you're just confusing us with you so called "reading"..."

grin

Anyway it's just my opinion!



Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:the problem I see using siteswaps for staff juggling is it doesn't at any point mention the direction of spin of the staffs.

The french cascade is a great example, it's siteswap is 3 (I think for normal cascade) but the action isn't a siteswap because doing staff you have to take into account which direction the staffs are spinning and how you have to move the staff to maintain the spin, something clubs and balls do not need to worry about. I agree siteswap can be useful, but unless you renominate the french cascade as 30, because of the carry, it doesn't seem to fit and can cause more confusion than clarity, so I can see where Tim is coming from.

Siteswap doesn't take into account the specific peculiarities of a staff because you are spinning as well as catching and throwing from the middle of the prop (with juggling you generally catch at the extremity of the prop even with rings), it may help with the pattern but without an annotation to show what you are doing with the staffs between throws you could end up trying to do a siteswap and not realise you're doing it wrong because you aren't doing the right spin on the stick or your reversing the spin when you should be maintaining it.

that's why I struggle with siteswap for staff anyway. to continue Kevs "reading analogy" what's the point of learning to read english if your going to try to use a book written in russian or chinese wink it's extra effort for no credible gain.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:Yo Kev....

Firstly am I right this is the same Kev I had a juggle with at BCC conv, in Paris a few years ago?(the whole online/offline world never fails to confuse me)

I like your point and the way you put it, much less aggressive the that crazy borganique dude wink

Me and him are mates in the real world as well as on here by the way so it's fun to wind each other up a little and in no way do i want to strike at him or anyone else with anything other than some cheeky comments smile

I also dont mean to attack or strike at site-swaps but I do mean to challenge the level of use and value they provide to staff jugglers in particular.

Having watch lots of new staff jugglers come onto the scene for a good few years now, the common pattern is that they learn lots of site-swaps, whilst I make no judgment on their decision to do so, I do feel the need to try and offer a different position to the debate.

I believe that is our difference that makes us so amazing as humans and also artists, so for me there is a value in challenging the norm and expressing opinions from a different point of view. I dont do this merely to be awkward but also because I believe my opinions have a value based in years of hard work and passion on the subject.

What really interests me is stimulating debate to see exactly how people feel about things, through this process I can learn more about how I feel about things. I do freely admit that this may also include nudging people a bit to get a more interesting reaction from them as people's real passion may often not come out online or in text in the same way that it would over a cold beer or in a nice gym somewhere..

What does make me feel very positive is the new faces on this thread as well as the clear levels of passion and excitement that still exist with other staff jugglers, there aren't very many of us compared to other types of both spinning and juggling but as long as there are a committed few then I am very happy and proud to be on of those few. smile



tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:Mynci...

Well put fella, the point about staff juggling using the middle of the prop rather than the extremity also brings up another debate about staff juggling.

There is an amazing juggler who performers with some patterns which I would call staff juggling and other patterns which to me are club juggling patterns done with staffs. If for now we avoid the "what is a staff debate" (wicks or no wicks, 0.9 isn't a staff but 1m is a staff etc...), the point about where the throws and catches are executed is a very interesting one as to how we define staff juggling as different to club juggling.



kevstaff
journeyman

Member Since: 24th Jun 2006
Total posts: 51
Posted:Hey Tim!

Yeah it's me grin

Don't worry we are on the same page, talking about it and explaining why we like/dislike it.

So let me continue on that, now that I have your views on the subject (Tim and Mynci).

Again, I don't exactly agree with it. It's really annoing to argue on line, and without staffs to illustrate my thoughts. And in english ^^... But anyway

Mynci, I don't think anyone ever said SS was supposed to define the entirety of the pattern. Just a specific part of it. This is where I'd like to show you in person, but for example, the notion of "2". I know if I use a "2" in 423 pattern, I know my high throw will have to be caught in the same hand right after my "2" and it will work. If it is in a 522, I know the high throw will be caught in my other hand, and that I should be able to do two "2".
So yes, I would probably figure it out on my own by practising, but with SS knowledge, I just know it and skip the "figure it out" part, and go straight to working on the move I wanna get.

It's true it doesn't take into acount rotation and all, but it's not supposed to anyway, and it doesn't get in the way either.

I'll go back to my example of the "2", with something more realistic. A while ago, I was doing some 3 staffs and I wanted to put a "behind the back blind throw" (hope you see what I mean) into a normal jugling pattern (aka "3").
I think my first idea, not knowing SS, would be to throw one really high then do my btb throw, and then try to catch everything. I would then realise, after a certain amount of time that after my btb throw I can either throw a "3", with the other hand, to catch my high throw (which is now a "4"). That would in fact be a 423.
Or I can throw my high throw a bit higher, for my other hand. And then I would realise that after my btb throw, I have time for another one with the next hand, it the timing would be perfect to catch the high throw right after that. That would be a 522.
In both cases I do my btb throw (the primary objective). And it IS going to be one of those basic SS, so I might as well know exactly in advance what my other throws need to be in order to complete my btb throw pattern.

Like I said, it would be better if I could show you and actually talk... :S



chemairo
person who like to spin all gears
Location: Germany - Dsseldorf
Member Since: 10th Sep 2008
Total posts: 62
Posted:I think that siteswaps are a part of juggling-evolution. If we are at a point when tricks like shower, backcrosser and so are just boring for us - most of the people will just look for other tricks and not later than they will look at siteswaps.

Sitewaps is for me something that revolutionize the juggling community because you know before throwing something if it works or not and in my point of view after "developing" siteswaps many patterns were founded.



entheogen
entheogen

member
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 4th Mar 2005
Total posts: 173
Posted:Funny Tim, most of the beginner staff jugglers I've met dont bother to start with side swaps at all. Inside cascade, french or antti style, outside cascade, half shower and logics are all just 3 variations. And that not just staff specific, theres also loads of catch variation in ball and club patterns too. Really siteswaps are only necessary when you want to start getting into really complicated patterns with a large number of props. Something staff juggling has yet to achieve so probably the entire argument is a bit irrelevant here.

'There are two mantras in life, yum and yuk. I choose yum.'


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:Backcrosses boring???? We must live on different planets dude for me backcrosses are amazing to watch and both really difficult and really fun to juggle...if there is one trick I will never get bored of its backcrossesl.

Val, if you think the argument is irrelevant keep out of it wink



chemairo
person who like to spin all gears
Location: Germany - Dsseldorf
Member Since: 10th Sep 2008
Total posts: 62
Posted:@tim

But Backcrosses are just a style of juggling like mills mess - you can also do siteswaps as backcrosses wink

So the time will pass and then you start doing them too wink



bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:laugh3

Caveman Tim strikes again wink

i feel like going back to the roots of this thread grin and saying that last week, i got 9 catches of 4 staffs (inverse fountain) and 8 catches of 5 staffs (10 throws, missed the last two...)

will try to get an entry to the vid, but unlikely, have too much to do this week (and not had a camera the last few weeks).

grin

(and yes, I love what siteswap allows and encourages)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)


willworkforfoodjnr
willworkforfoodjnr

Hunting robot foxes
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire
Member Since: 8th Aug 2007
Total posts: 1046
Posted:Its all about how you approach things. I've come from a juggling background and I'm pretty mathematical so siteswap is an obvious tool for me, I can think in it! Its also a useful tool for inventing shapes but only when you combine it with extra info. So I won't just say "do a 531", I'll say "Do a 531 but make the 3 a half spin isolated to the end of the staff doing 1". I've just imparted the information required to do a really pretty pattern in a third of the text that would be required to describe it in full, not to mention making it much easier for the person I'm talking about to comprehend, providing they've learnt siteswap.

That said I'm rarely at the point where its relevant for me at my level of staff throwing, I have a load of tricks in my head for when I get better!

And Rob, you're too awesome dude! clap


Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!


tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:rob...........grunt

chemairo...."But Backcrosses are just a style of juggling like mills mess??? Erm... aren't they both tricks? -
"you can also do siteswaps as backcrosses"....can you??? you can do backcross variations but not proper backcrosses??

@will work, well put dude, i think siteswaps make sense with more words than numbers......hmmm if only we could find a way to get rid of all the numbers then timmy the cave man would be a happy boy wink



Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:you could use letters instead A=0 B=1 C=2 etc

You never know some siteswaps could end up with actual words for names probably those with plenty of 0 and 4 throws and those without vowels will sound like they came from a cave man.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


gumop
newbie
Location: belgium
Member Since: 27th Jan 2010
Total posts: 36
Posted:Why are you doing staff guys? Why don't you throw mathematicaly clubs like the others geek jugglers? Clubs are so more difficult than staff throwing... And it's created for that...


Bordel de merde where is the contact community??

Oh yes, by the way, it's easier to speak by numbers...
J'emmerde siteswaps, j'emmerde throwing. mad

Let's go mad with ONLY ONE staff !!

This a " coup de gueule " in french

The french part is angry typical expressions and i can't translate it.

EDITED_BY: gumop (1288253322)



CalvinKlown
CalvinKlown

Eunathist
Location: Hy Brasil - For real now.
Member Since: 30th May 2006
Total posts: 280
Posted:The contact community is always lurking nearby. Watchin ur moves.
Know what you mean about these "throwers".

Who said "I don't recognise the juggling of sticks"?

Post something good in the contact section Gumop. Entertaining as everyone going mad is....

/stirring it.
*Heads back to advanced contact*
*sigh*


Never lie down with someone who has more problems than you.


kevstaff
journeyman

Member Since: 24th Jun 2006
Total posts: 51
Posted:Hahaha Gumop t'es con grin

Throwing staffs is fun, and agree or not, I find it very different from club juggling!

But you don't even juggle staff anyway, why the anger? ^^

On the topic, I kind of agree that SS is not that important when juggling only 3, that's why I just know the basics and am happy with it. But basics are cool anyway, and a bit useful...



tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:@mynci i like it, i think we could maybe call it cave-swaps or grunt notation?

@gumop- " coup de gueule " i think the best translation is rant

"Clubs are so more difficult than staff throwing" that is both wrong and even more wrong, even discounting the fire/night issues that are relevant for some of us, clubs are much easier to juggle

"J'emmerde throwing"....?.......J'emmerde gumop wink



tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:@Calvin "I don't recognise the juggling of sticks"?

I think it was Jason Garfield that you refer too but if this is this case your reference is misquoted??.
Garfield was talking about old school juggling sticks which were basically very thin clubs and nothing like the staffs us glorious specimens juggle with.





JohnnyFettucini
JohnnyFettucini

Mr Pasta
Location: Sweden
Member Since: 25th Jan 2007
Total posts: 44
Posted:*Staff Only 2**Staff Only 2**Staff Only 2**Staff Only 2*

Ciao Everybody!

Sooooooooooon its closing time smile Be sure to mail me your footage tomorrow! Or even better... today if you have it ready!

Super excited deluxe!

(My mail : SINEPROTS@hotmail.com )



artnonstop
member

Member Since: 12th May 2010
Total posts: 28
Posted:hi we are ready, what about the SO2?


JohnnyFettucini
JohnnyFettucini

Mr Pasta
Location: Sweden
Member Since: 25th Jan 2007
Total posts: 44
Posted:@artnonstop!
Mail me your footage! sineprots@hotmail.com smile

THANX!



borganique
borganique

member
Location: Cornwall
Member Since: 6th Jan 2006
Total posts: 154
Posted:well, i personally think that club juggling is very useful for staff juggling.

i barely juggle staffs these days, (mostly only if offeered wedges of cash) i mainly juggle clubs, but mostly in wall plane. i have found this very good for my staff juggling, direct trick transfer, cutting out a lot of the pain/injury that i would incur if i tried to learn with staffs.. clubs are lighter and shorter, but still a stick at heart.

siteswaps are not that inspiring at the best of times, staff juggling is all about the flourisheseses.

very proud of my recent reverse cascade flourish, straight from the clubs that one, feels (and looks) lush



kevstaff
journeyman

Member Since: 24th Jun 2006
Total posts: 51
Posted:What's "flourish"?


JohnnyFettucini
JohnnyFettucini

Mr Pasta
Location: Sweden
Member Since: 25th Jan 2007
Total posts: 44
Posted:Now if you havent submitted yet... do it!

Niko & Kasmir of Duo FLOW... please submit cool



kevstaff
journeyman

Member Since: 24th Jun 2006
Total posts: 51
Posted:Originally Posted By: JohnnyFettucini

Niko & Kasmir of Duo FLOW... please submit cool





Seconded!



aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Keen to see what you guys come up with.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland


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