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Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Ok, what is the secret to orbitals

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Dave Statik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine

Total posts: 106
Posted:GOD! Orbitals are kicking my ass. i can lock in, but ALWAYS they end up uneven in lengths. Even if they start out perfectly even. Once i tug the center point goes either left or right. HOW do you do it? I heard rumor of a special chain that people dont like to talk about. idk. sounds like bs. ive been practicing for some time now, and i cannot nail it like i see others do. Is there some special secret to it? a trick you gotta nail? Ive seen all the tutorials, and practice all different ways of doing it, and still crap. wtf. PLZ help!

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Posted:i feel the complete same i have the cone poi with swivels and ball handles and still cant nail it smirk

fire is alive. it lives and breathes. it consumes and destroys. but we control it and live with it, we are fire dancers

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Midkiff
BRONZE Member since Nov 2009

shadow stranger
Location: Carmi, Illinois

Total posts: 462
Posted:i felt the same way for a long time but i practiced diligently and i still cant always do it or even come out of it but something that might help is get some stretchy material grab it in both hands and try to move your hands the exact same distance because if you dont it will be uneven and not work

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

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Smurf24029
GOLD Member since Sep 2009

Smurf24029

Poi Master Smurf
Location: Tacoma, Washington

Total posts: 343
Posted:I feel like its something that will come with practice and time. It did for me. As well as learning to release the orbital cleanly. Just practice and practice and practice. Eventually you will become so familiar with whatever trick your focusing on that it will come to you.

Fly High
Spin Hard
Don't Stop

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:Some chains make it harder than others; FireMecca's chain is best. But I recommend learning with colecord poi of some sort, since it has enough tooth to catch for the orbital, but takes the issues of link shape out of the equation. Once you can do it with cord, you can go back and see what chains bring to the table.

My only further piece of advice is that they may not actually be entering the orbital with equal momentum, and this is probably why one is going longer than the other. When the two poi are swinging toward each other, one is usually swinging up and the other down. Try giving the upswinging poi just a bit more force than the downswinging one, since gravity might be tweaking the speeds just a little.


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:Repetition.

Just like how people told me to learn isolated buzzsaw (I didn't believe them).

Just keep doing them. I got addicted and kept trying to do them for like a month. I can do them almost too easily now. link chain totally helps if you feel like you're initially at the right length and then they slip out of equality. I got really really good at link chain and then I went back to ball chain and could do them easily on ball chain without having to learn separately. I can now do them on any type of rope/chain. Unfortunately I was told that Fire Mecca doesn't sell the awesome chain anymore. Just get 2.0mm dog chain from a pet store.

Same goes for getting out of them. There's all this beat counting, and looking at it to see when you should get out, but I promise if you keep trying you're body will eventually learn the motion and timing. I still dont' even know what it is. But I'm at like 80% success rate getting out of them.

EDITED_BY: Lye (1282321963)


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Dave Statik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine

Total posts: 106
Posted:thanks for the tips sister and lye, and the reenforcement everyone. i have been working at them contstantly, and asked around at wildfire this weekend, and a common suggestion is my chain. basically i handed people who were good at orbitals my poi, and they had some trouble with it. but the suggestions were inconsistant. some said bigger links others said smaller...but another said a 'low profile' chain is the key, which could imply that large or small links, as long as they are low profile would be better. not sure, but ill keep practicing and keep a look out for someone who sells a good chain for it. maybe ask some pros if i can find them.

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:Originally Posted By: Sister ElevenSome chains make it harder than others; FireMecca's chain is best.

Wrong, HoP is selling their 2.4mm chain again. It's practically like using Colecord grin I can just let it go and pull it back to a little circle like it's nothing grin It's just a smidgen heavier than the Firemecca chain, but for orbital's it is champion in my experience smile


The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:Sweet! Good chain that I can get a discount on!

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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Dave Statik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine

Total posts: 106
Posted:hmm ill check it out. btw. tried some of the tips that were thrown out last night and i ripped about 6 nice ones. thanks gusy.

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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:2.4mm is good for orbitals, but they're too heavy. They just are. I'm gonna continue to look for someone who will make the same exact chain with titanium. I will never find them.

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:Sister Eleven has a good point about momentum.

I'll add a little more:
If you know you are going for an orbital, don't try to link the chains in the middle, like other tangles. Instead, link the chains as close to the handle-side swivels as you can. This makes it very difficult to get an uneven link! The closer to the handles you are, you minimize trampoline effect when you pull, you minimize a jarring speed change right before you pull, and you maximize the length you can pull to increase your speed into an orbital.

Trampoline effect: Just watch someone "Ollying" a hyperloop. The tangle in the middle of the chain sags down a bit, and they move it around. If you have a saggy middle it is like a saggy trampoline, slack-line, diabolo string, etc. When you pull your chains to speed up the orbital, the tension increase also acts like a slingshot, springing the tangle up and hen bouncing it around. This can make your orbital unstable and change the speeds of your poi heads independently of each other, which will totally wreck your orbital.

Nick Woolsey likes to give his hand's a little lift right as he tangles (this also helps ensure that the up-swigning poi has enough momentum). The lift gives the tangle some hang-time, so that it isn't sagging at all when he pulls. I find that this technique combined with entering close to the handles prevents trampolining.


Jarring speed change: With your average hyperloop (of the maxiplus variety for the oldschoolers), You start with momentum x at tether length y making speed z. As you tangle in the middle of the chains/tether, you suddenly cut the length in half (y/2), thereby doubling the speed of the poi (z*2)... if you can keep your hands steady. Often times people unconsciously let the poi lose momentum so that their hyper loop poi are closer to the original poi speed. This means you have a) a sudden speed change wile you are setting up your orbital, or b) you are starting to pull poi that are much slower and they won't get up to a fast enough speed to create stability form gyroscopic effects (and your tangle poit may be sagging to from slowing down).

Maximum speed increase: So let's say you slowed down your poi as you tangled in the middle. This means that you have less inertial energy in the tangle, and can only pull half the length of your tether to change length into speed... and you have to do it in a shorter movement, which means it's harder to make it a smooth movement. If on the other hand you tangle close to the handles, you enter with about the same inertial energy as your normal spinning, but have the entire tether to pull and change length into speed. Plus you have a longer distance to pull, which means it will be easier to make a smooth pull rather than a quick jerk.


+Alien Jon

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Posted:Chains are really not of the utmost important. I can do an orbital on any chains that I use. Your poi heads will be a higher factor - if you heavier heads (cathedral, monkeyfist), then I (personally) find it easier to come out with an even orbital. The lighter heads don't seem to create enough force when the orbital is moving to counteract each other. Also make sure you give it a tight pull as soon as you enter the orbital - if you try and slowly pull them or not give them a good jerk, there is a good chance they will become uneven. Its a very quick process to get into the orbital.

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Dave Statik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine

Total posts: 106
Posted:Ok so i pretty sure ive got it figured out. I found a mix of techniques helped alot. as jon said, giving the lift for hang time help alot. linking at the handles didnt help much, however, linking about halfway as if i were going to do an air wrap or a hyperloop, doing the lift, then BRINGING MY HANDS TOGETHER TOWARD THE TANGLE (more towards jon's suggestion) THEN pulling is what unlocked it for me. Basically doing an orbital stall before the orbital. the poi slow right down and its all slow motion, and you can look at the tangle point and see quite clearly if the tangle is even or not as it is in a state of hang time. Pulling at that point is very easy and resistanceless. I cant nail it every time, and i have good days and bad days, but point is ive got the idea i suppose. thank you all for you input. litterally. cuz i used all of your tips and combined them, and now i can do it! haha!

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Dave Statik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine

Total posts: 106
Posted:Oh yea, and back to the chains, okay maybe its not ALL in the chains. but i still think some chains may be more condusive to the move than others. shape, size, ect. some people who could do them well had trouble with my HOP chains. idk...and worse, ive broken these HOP chains twice just practicing these orbitals. SoD mentioned the 2.4 chains, so i may look into that, because i was told by another spinner from mass that when he got his 2mm chains orbitals were so easy for him. so thats two mentions of it. i worry about the strength after breaking my 4mms...but i imagine that with less friction i wouldnt really have to worrry. idk. we'll see.

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Andy J
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Andy J

stranger


Total posts: 7
Posted:i think the "chains" arent the problem, but it could have something to do with the swivels. i have HOP oval link chain and orbitals work fine with them. one think that helped me learn is trying them with socks or stretchy poi. this can let the poi adjust to the speed and they will usually even out the momentum if your material is stretchy enough.

learn to do hyper-loops and practice them very close to your hands. slowly start them farther and farther away from your hands until you can do hyper loops from about halfway down your poi. this should help you get the feel for both the momentum you need and the release timing.

try different speeds of pulling the strings/chains tighter. different materials and poi head weights/mass will need different amounts of force and speed with which you pull the strings once the strings have met. if you try it with glowsticks and shoestrings you'll notice that you have to pull them very hard and fast due to the light weight of the sticks. heavy poi heads usually require less immediate force to get them orbiting.


hope this helps and good luck!


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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:Right now I use the chain I got with my Isis poi. It's quite thin o0 It's a proof coil chain. It's unbelievably light. It's almost as light and my damn colecord. I find proof coil chain works very well for orbitals. And I can do them well with my 2mm chain from FireMecca, but that came with practice.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:ps when i was learning it was actually easier to get them if i did the orbital almost at the HEADS, as you can do a minimal size orbital and lower the risk of uneven sides or uneven pulling.

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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:Originally Posted By: SpinnerofDetroitRight now I use the chain I got with my Isis poi. It's quite thin o0 It's a proof coil chain. It's unbelievably light. It's almost as light and my damn colecord. I find proof coil chain works very well for orbitals. And I can do them well with my 2mm chain from FireMecca, but that came with practice.

can you post a picture of said chain


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Dave Statik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine

Total posts: 106
Posted:I honestly didnt think it would help that much after reading everyones input, but i needed new chains anyway having broken my orginal HOP chains. BUT i just got my new HOP 2.4 chains and the differance was night and day...orbitals like no tomarrow. So i have concluded that while chains never prevail over practice and technique, they do contribute to the over all success of your orbitals. If you do not agree that is fine, but these chains slide much easier, offering less resistance. I feel that plays a big factor. my swivels btw are the larger HOP ones.

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:I've been working lately on cleaning up some of my air wraps lately, so this is fresh in my mind. You obviously understand the mechanics of what is happening with the poi. If you are having trouble with maintaining smooth air wraps, I can guarantee, however, that your body relation to the move is disconnected and separate from them.

First off, I think materials matter here... If you're using chains, you will thank yourself if you use a dog choker collar chain for this. It's flat nature makes it perfect for any chain-on-chain wrapping. Also, get swivels for the handles if you don't have em, cause you aren't going to get far without em.

As for your body relation to the poi, I'm not talking about physical distance and all that. I'm talking about connection. I know that sounds abstract, but I'll try and explain.

Watch someone who's really good at these doing a demo, or someone who flows into them very naturally, and notice the following things. When we talk about a hyperloop for instance, we talk about the poi tangling on your right, moving through the space in between your arms, and exiting on the left. But that isn't what is happening. When they tangle on the right, the upper body is slightly turned to the right, and when it exists on the left, the body is angled to the left. Someone who is good at this may do it naturally and not realize what's happening, but if you had a laser pointer shooting out directly from your chest, it would be pointed right at the tangle point the entire way through the move.

In essence, you are keeping it in your center (a rectangle about the width in between your nipples, and from about your chin to your belly button, somewhere in between your chest and the length of your outreached arms depending on how your moving). This is where your power comes from. Think about how you push a car... you aren't turned sideways doing it, because that isn't where you have the most power. That power is where the rotational force comes from in your orbital.

So now I get downright esoteric.

When you get it right, you can notice a few things:
1. Listen. When you are focused on that point where the chains connect, and you do this right, you'll hear an initial click when they connect, and that's it. If you hear chain-on-chain slip, you are not connected to that point.
2. You will feel it in your gut. Think about when your pushing a car again, or opening a jar of pickles, and think about your abdominals. They have a "tight" feeling but they are not tight. That is because your center of power, which is right around your belly button, is connected to the object you are pushing. You can play with this even when your PULLING instead of pushing.
3. Your arms will not be pulling. Your arms will not be limp. The amount of STRENGTH in your arms will be fairly limited, only enough to keep everything taught, and connected. There may be some pulling if things get off kilter in order to correct where the tangle is and bring it back into your center, but it is NOT pulling from your arms, it is pushing with your center through the chain tangle point to move it.
4. You are not static. There is a rhythm that DEVELOPS between you and the poi once they go into an orbital, but it is not something you DO it is something that HAPPENS. Your arms will actually "vibrate" in time to the poi heads spinning. Also, you do not stop moving once they get into the orbital. I will guarantee you that if you stop dead the momentum will die too. If you push through the tangle point with your center while you try to hold it, you will stay connected and you will be able to feel the rhythm of the poi heads in your gut.
5. To try and get that connected feeling, try doing a regular reverse hyperloop, from right to left. Start with the left foot forward, and as you move through the move, think about pushing through that chain tangle point, again, just like you are pushing a car. You should end with your right foot forward as it exits on the left.

I also train in Aikido. Finding this point in my air wraps not only pushed me leaps and bounds further in my study there, but it allowed me to find a lot of the techniques from Aikido in poi. I actually found about five new moves after I made this connection, and my air wraps are smooth as ice now. It's taken me two years of Aikido to find my center and be able to manipulate it. I found it in my poi after 10 years of practice. I wish I had known this stuff back then.

Maybe I should try and put together some videos to demonstrate the difference between being connected to that tangle point, and not. It's much more apparent when you see it in person what a difference it makes.

Also, once you find it in one place, you start to notice that you have that gut-connected feeling to most of the moves you do that you start to get good at. In essence, the poi are an extension of the energy moving in your gut/center/hara whatever you want to call it. Whenever you disconnect and start just moving the poi instead of moving yourself, you lose that flowing look and go back to just doing tricks.

EDITED_BY: i8beefy2 (1299028566)


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Dave Statik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine

Total posts: 106
Posted:Haha thanks for such a thoughtful post, but I got these a long time ago lol.

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:Fair enough. Seems the forums have slowed down some in the last few years since I've been active. Didn't see the date.

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Dave Statik
BRONZE Member since Mar 2010

Dave Statik

You cant teach stupid.
Location: Maine

Total posts: 106
Posted:haha its good man. where are the active forums anyways?

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