• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 200.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > Immigration (reform) debate

Login/Join to Participate

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:(sparked by the 2010 debate in the US)

Help me understand... the US consists of 90% (+) immigrants.

The federal government seems to be suggesting a general amnesty for illegal immigrants... Individual states, like AZ are trying to clamp down on the stream of (illegal) immigrants... A great deal of business owners depend on a cheap and renewable workforce...

Originally Posted By: Tennessean.comThe Nashville Music Association union, Tyson Foods and the National Pork Producers Council, with a local office in Rutherford County, all lobby for immigration reform that would raise the cap on worker visas. They also want to create a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

"This is my opinion, I understand illegal immigration may be out of control in Arizona, but their law was over the top," said Craig Krampf, secretary and treasurer of the Nashville Music Association. "Too radical. Mistakes were made on all sides with immigration, and we need some reform."

The Arizona law would have required non-citizens to carry identification papers at all times and required police to check the immigration status of anyone suspected of being in the U.S. illegally. But a federal judge blocked most of its provisions on Wednesday, hours before they were to take effect. The state has appealed and the case may end up in the Supreme Court.

It is said that over the course of the next 40 years the African American and Latino population of the US will outnumber that of the European/ Kaukasian descend...

Personally I do experience the immigration/ working visa regulations from the receiving end, as I do live and work in India (which got SO difficult, Im intending to leave from India over the next two years). As it is very difficult to obtain working visa in India, many of my friends picked up work "illegally" and are sometimes facing repercussions (though very mildly as corruption in India is as normal as a butterfly in spring)...

They do not take jobs from locals, as the movie and entertainment industry is always looking for "extras" in Bollywood flicks and for western performers or cheerleaders or similar.

Its different in the US I guess, as immigrants there DO take jobs the locals would also do.

But still Im not a great fan of visa (regulations) anyway...

Actually this debate is happening worldwide in every country that I personally visited so far - only because it is now happening again in the US it draws more attention...

Also I found that some countries (like India) somehow adjust their immigration/ visa policies according to the cultural and economical ties by individual country (UK->NZ/AU = commonly welcoming, whilst India->Israel/Italy/Spain/Russia = generally unwelcoming)

Your thoughts?

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1280491804)
EDIT_REASON: bias


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete Topic

Fire_Moose
Fire_Moose

Elusive and Bearded
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Member Since: 2nd May 2007
Total posts: 3597
Posted:For the record, They are "Illegos"

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

Delete

Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:The Statue of Liberty says,

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That being said, I believe that it is an issue about those that would break the laws of the US to live and work here. Simply put, it's ILLEGAL! Get your visa, it's REALLY easy, then cross the border.

Arizona was seeking to empower itself with the ability to enforce a law that the US federal gov. refuses to. Too much of this issue has been buried in spin.

I think the US/Mexican border is almost as ridiculous as the US/Canadian border. It is still no excuse for breaking the laws.

NA is 100% immigrants, like all of Europe. That has little to nothing to with breaking the laws. Times change, people change, laws and countries change. Where Arizona vs the US is, in this debate, is now.

Given the economic climate and current social structure, illegal immigrants are a burden. If I were to seek medical treatment, currently, I would be forced to pay. Were someone that is in the US illegally to seek medical treatment, they would receive it courtesy of my tax dollars. Were I to go out and break a law, I would be pushed through the justice system. Were an illegal immigrant to do the same, they would get a free ride home to visit their loved ones and start their journey back here to do it again, at their leisure.

Is any of this fair to those whom are here legally?

Is it okay to break US laws simply because you can't be bothered going through the process of obtaining legal status?

No and No.

It really is a double edged sword, when you force people to have papers. I think that if the US federal gov. would simply enforce the immigration laws, Arizona would have never put this one into place, opening a door that was best left shut.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:dont understand the connection of medical treatment and illegal immigration, pls elaborate.

Maybe those "illegalos" need to be told at their origins how easy it really is to obtain a (working) visa to the US, because some of them spend quite some money and even put their lives on risk to enter the US illegally...

I couldnt say about the US... but to obtain a (working) visa to the EU (for the majority) is virtually impossible, which is why they are choosing illegal means to enter (and many of them die in the process)...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:The connection is, that the people in the US illegally, do not pay income tax. When they are sick or hurt, they go to hospital and are treated, and rightly so. When they are uninsured or do not have gov. coverage, the bill is passed on to the tax payer in one form or another and to those that are covered or pay out of pocket with higher treatment costs. They basically have free medical care, where those that are in the US legally do not. It's a burden and the system is broken. Just one example of many.

I need to stress that I am conflicted as far as the immigration issue is concerned. One thing I believe is, these people are human beings and should be treated with compassion.

The majority of those that jump the border do so at great risk to their lives in the desert interior. I don't not believe they do so at great expense between the US/Mexican border. I have seen how it is done.

The reason they choose not to go the legal route is because they believe they could be denied.

They need to get a passport, once in the US apply for a work visa from any number of companies that would rather hire cheap imported labour or get one on the grounds of self employment(but then you'd have to pay for taxes and the free ride would be over).

There is no law in the US that forces companies to offer a job to a US citizen first before going outside the country to recruit, unlike most other countries on the planet. Another broken part of the system.

My thoughts are that a general amnesty would end in failure. Most of the illegal immigrants will not choose to go in and become tax paying, law abiding citizens with legal paper work and social security.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I see - thats funny because I thought that people without health care would have to pay by themselves and that a hospital which couldnt cash their dues would take precautions (like cash or credit card deposit if its not ICU)...

Sure you get kind of upset if people exploit the system ruthlessly for their own benefits.

But I dont understand why people would not first try to apply for a vsa because they fear to get rejected... I mean how illegal can you possibly get? You apply, get rejected - you still go = youre illegal. You dont apply (waving any chance to be legal) and you are still illegal... I mean every person with brains would first try...

Even if they were accepted it wouldnt mean that they had to pay taxes.... only they wouldnt have to run everytime they see the cops and face detention... I mean, people can apply for working permit and then drop out of employment and seek "black" employment, no? At least it works in Germany like this.

But I guess I get it: they would have to pay money for the visa application and try to save on this one?

One more problem I see on the side of the employers... would they face criminal charges to employ illegalos? If not then it should definitely be put more effort on this end of the chain (imho)...

I see your point about illegals not trying to join the system - but then you at least tried to extend your hand and give them a chance. If they fail to take it then youd have every right to clamp down...

Im too split over the issue, because of many reasons. I dislike restraints on migration, many jobs (in Germany) are simply not been taken by locals (at least not happily)... then again: if they choose to go somewhere, they should at least make the effort and become part of the hosts society (legally)... more being in a symbiosis, than violently exploiting the system thats been set up for centuries and so on...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Originally Posted By: FTI see - thats funny because I thought that people without health care would have to pay by themselves and that a hospital which couldnt cash their dues would take precautions (like cash or credit card deposit if its not ICU)...

I'm not sure about every state in the US, but in OK, it is illegal to deny anyone medical treatment for anything. If you are indigent or health costs are too dear, you go to an emergency room for anything from pregnancy tests and flu to broken bones and they are required to treat you. They can only ask you for payment options after treatment. If you don't have it, you walk out and the treatment facility turns the bill into the state for compensation. The costs the state refuses to compensate for are spread to those that are insured through higher rates.

Originally Posted By: FTSure you get kind of upset if people exploit the system ruthlessly for their own benefits.

It's not just the illegal immigrants that do this, however they constitute the bulk because they are most certainly uninsured.

Originally Posted By: FTBut I dont understand why people would not first try to apply for a vsa because they fear to get rejected... I mean how illegal can you possibly get? You apply, get rejected - you still go = youre illegal. You dont apply (waving any chance to be legal) and you are still illegal... I mean every person with brains would first try...

I'm uncertain why they don't try first. The typical illegal immigrant is very uneducated and does not know any better to do so.

Originally Posted By: FTEven if they were accepted it wouldnt mean that they had to pay taxes.... only they wouldnt have to run everytime they see the cops and face detention... I mean, people can apply for working permit and then drop out of employment and seek "black" employment, no? At least it works in Germany like this.

Paying taxes in the US would outweigh getting a significantly lower wage for under the table work. Income tax in the US is extremely low. I am confused myself.

Originally Posted By: FTOne more problem I see on the side of the employers... would they face criminal charges to employ illegalos? If not then it should definitely be put more effort on this end of the chain (imho)...

At one time there was no law against it, now that there is, it is a matter of enforcing it. The federal gov doesn't and then tells states that do, they are over stepping their authority. This place is a mess where laws and enforcement are concerned.

The whole thing needs a revamp focused on prevention. People should be free to move about and pursue a better life for themselves. I think the US should be more proactive in trying to improve the quality of life inside of Mexico. It might make this practice far less appealing.

BTW: Poje, illego, is such a horrible word.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Delete

Flint_413
Flint_413

Fire Artist and Hooper
Location: U.S.A
Member Since: 8th Jul 2009
Total posts: 181
Posted:*high fives refuge crew*

Personally I'd be totally cool with a crackdown on illegal immagration if they made it POSSIBLE to get into america from mexico. You barely need a passport to get between canada and america. But try getting from Mexico into the U.S. on an average Mexican salary. Its nearly impossible. And america keeps screwing over mexico so I dont really blame them.


If you can't stand the heat, get out of my way.

Delete

Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Originally Posted By: Refuge CrewThe connection is, that the people in the US illegally, do not pay income tax.
Quick correction here: The US is interesting in that it has a system to allow illegals to pay tax using an identity number separate to the social security number. As a result many illegals pay into the states they live in, hoping to show their value and dedication to their adopted country. A quick search revealed a report from 2007 published by the Congressional Budget Office, so the data's a little old but shows millions of dollars paid by illegals.

Originally Posted By: Congressional Budget OfficeAnother reportprepared by the state comptroller of Texasestimated that, in 2006, the state collected $424million more in revenue from unauthorized immigrants than it spent to provide education, health care, and law enforcement activities for that population.

In the UK illegals paying tax is possible, but harder, so less likely to happen. Companies and individuals are responsible for checking those that work for them are legal, so any illegals are kept off the books.

Moving on...
From my view point places like the UK perceives itself to have a huge illegal immigrant problem without really having a major problem. The fact that I often see British people complaining about immigrants to white immigrants without realising the irony leads me to believe race plays a large part in people's feelings about immigration. It boils down to us and them, with the 'them' helpfully being a different colour or easily culturally identifiably. Mexicans in the US; Africans & Eastern Europeans in the UK. Same happens in Australia, which is friendly if you're white; hellish if you're Asian.

We like to look after our own and we've yet to have a global vision of 'us'.


Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:good to see ya, Flint wave got no experience crossing the borders of Mexico or Canada to/from the US, so I cant really say - but the US seems quite busy trying to improve lifestyles in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I wouldnt blame them for not being able to do so in Latin/ South Americas. wink

RC: regarding this medic topci I found this

Originally Posted By: Wiki on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_StatesAt
least 15.3% of the population is completely uninsured, and a substantial additional portion of the population (35%) is "underinsured", or not able to cover the costs of their medical needs. More money per person is spent on health care in the United States than in any other nation in the world, and a greater percentage of total income in the nation is spent on health care in the U.S. than in any United Nations member state except for East Timor. Despite the fact that not all citizens are covered, the United States has the third highest public healthcare expenditure per capita. A 2001 study in five states found that medical debt contributed to 62% of all personal bankruptcies. Since then, health costs and the numbers of uninsured and underinsured have increased.

Sorry for quoting Wikipedia...

In Germany you certainly get treatment for life threatening conditions, but if youre not having insurance and are suspected not paying your bills, for sure youll not be able to receive other treatments. Im surprised this happens in the US. It would equal free healthcare...

According to press releases, since 1988 a total of 14.714 persons died along EU borders trying to migrate illegally - the vast majority died or went missing in the Mediterranean, crossing from African nations.

In Germany it is also illegal for doctors and lawyers to support and advise illegal immigrants without reporting their addresses and it is illegal to provide employment (or generally to employ people without filing reports/ invoices)... in case of detection these people would be held liable for the costs of detention.

Visa regulations in EU countries do vary: Its quite strange because in order to invite my ex from Russia, I had to first dedicate 10k on an acocunt and then sign a paper that I would accept liability in case she had to receive medical treament not covered by travel insurances and that Id be held responsible if she wouldnt leave after her visa expired... Only for her to apply for visa at the Spanish embassy wich was granted w/o any of these requirements shrug

An "illegal immigrant" is someone who is not only illegally entering a country, intending to live there for the rest of his life, but also someone who is entering a country temporarily to obtain work - and I guess that is the type of immigrant this debate is about. Note that "illegal immigrant" is someone not only entering the country without proper documents (passport/ visa) but also someone whose documents become invalid during her/his stay or who is overstaying or is involved in illegal activities, voiding his visa - no? ... not sure how this percentage affects the general statistics.

Regarding fees:

a) an immigrant needs a sponsor in the host country or apply for the visa lottery (wich is a game of its own and costs a non-refundable $440 to enter)
b) immigration visa fees go up to $720 for employment based applications (non-refundable)

*cough* now the picture gets a little clearer... unfortunately I cant find any information on how many visa got rejected but it seems that only a total of 450k immigrant visa were granted...

according to University World News: "Almost 500,000 non-immigrant academic student visa applications were made in 2008-09. Of these, 31% or 146,574 were refused. (...) Among the non-immigrant vocational students, 23% out of a total of almost 12,000 visa applications were rejected."

This doesnt give an idea of how many immigrant or working visa to the US are being rejected, but my guess would be that if youre not a qualified worker or academic or got a fair ammount of cash in the bank your chance to get a working visa to the US are quite .... small.

Which might be the reason why people choose not to invest in the visa process, but the ticket to the border.

Enforcing raids at construction sites or frequently checking "meeting points" for illegal workforce would be a daily routine, Id guess... not as if the cops had nothing else to do, right? wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:interesting numbers, Dom - thanks

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:@Dom The ITIN process is something I am VERY familiar with. I was the only accountant on the graveyard shift at the worlds 3rd largest casino. I had to go through it with tourist at least 4 times a night.

Originally Posted By: IRSAn ITIN is a tax processing number issued by the IRS to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA).

In other words, you are legally employed, or you require an ITIN for another reason(eg. you were in the US on holiday and went gambling and won over $1999.99, and would like to reclaim the income taxes deducted because you have a win/loss statement that proves you actually lost equal to or more than you won). Even an unauthorised alien can go through the process for winnings but cannot pay income tax based on employment.

Furthermore, taxes are automatically deducted from the payroll before a check is issued to you by your employer in the US for both federal and state. In order to be 'legally' employed you have to provide your employer with a social security number or employment eligible ITIN, which your employer is required by law to verify prior to issuing your earnings.

Not to say that this system is infallible, but it is as secure as one could hope, or at least meant to be. I would be VERY interested in where you got this;

Originally Posted By: DomThe US is interesting in that it has a system to allow illegals to pay tax using an identity number separate to the social security number. As a result many illegals pay into the states they live in, hoping to show their value and dedication to their adopted country.

I would personally like to see if there is a correction to be had. Honestly, it would outrage me, but never the less prove interesting and fly in the face of everything I learned when getting my accounting platform.

Also

How the Texas state comptroller's office prepared that estimate is beyond me, Texas has no income tax and does not track federal income taxes. They must have magically pulled some fantastic statistical number from the air and applied it to GST. Considering that Texas also has no taxes on necessities, all of the illegal immigrants in Texas must have been enjoying a very posh lifestyle, judging from all of the luxury items they purchased that year.

I would advise scepticism when anything the Bush administration's leftovers are concerned in dealing with Mexico, Texas's largest trading partner and vice versa.

Texas is the world's 10th largest economy and heavy ties, import/export mainly, with Mexico, is responsible for this. I am highly suspicious. All the illegal aliens in the US just help propel Carlos Slim to richest man on the planet with the outrageous phone rates between the US and Mexico. You'd get a better rate between the US and Liberia, consequently, if you're in the UK, I could call you for free from the US. The powers that be in Mexico have an interest in all the money the illegal immigrants send home to old Mexico, and I am certain the phone rates given to the US carrier are profitable as well.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Delete

Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:I've thought about this whole illegal immigration thing today.

I think the devil is in the details. In the end, it's my humanity that prevails. The fact that the US has minimal enforcement where illegal immigrants are concerned, seems to me, more compassionate.

I have to ask myself, what wouldn't I do to provide for those I love? I also have to ask myself, what love is there in consigning someone to a diminished existence because they broke a meaningless rule or overstepped an invisible boundary?

The Arizona law is a path to arbitrary rule at the cost of philanthropy. I hope everyone can see that at the bottom of a growing pile of spin.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Delete

Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Nicely put.

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:side that...

RC: I get you right? You mean you have compassion for those who jump the borders, trying to make a living, sending money back to their families or trying to thrive for a better lifestyle (or going into the process to pursue it)... ?

You mean that the US is having minimal enforcement regarding illegal immigrants and that this procedure is compassionate towards illegal immigrants and their fate?

I'm not sure what you mean with "meaningless rule" and "invisible boundary", so I can only go from my personal pov and completely agree...

hug

It is a very complicated issue, I'd say... as Flint put it before: improve the lifestyles in those countries for those people and less will come (illegally)...

I'm sure that more people would opt for the legal process, if the fees would not be that exorbitant and it would be more clear to people which requirements they need to fulfill in order to obtain a visa in the first place and if they would understand exactly why their visa got rejected... and if the high visa processing fees would be refundable, in case they get rejected.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:I am saying that despite all the points one could make against illegal immigration, in the end, compassion for their struggle should win the argument, what ever guise it might take.

Meaningless rule and invisible boundary = It is just a line on a map!

Originally Posted By: myselfI think the US should be more proactive in trying to improve the quality of life inside of Mexico. It might make this practice far less appealing.

That was me wink

I'm uncertain what would be the best solution ATM, as far as illegal immigration is concerned. I don't think changing the legal process and its fees would improve anything.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:ooooops my bad - but I see we're almost completely on the same side of the fence grin

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:As a nurse I have seen a great deal of illegal alien mothers giving birth to new American citizens (on the tax payer's dollar). I have an illegal alien associate who has been in two drunk driving accidents. Lets just say his punishment was less than mine would have been.

These are issues.

Freedom must include fairness.

ILLEGAL immigrant.

Legal Mexican immigrants often feel it's not fair... after all they EARNED their right to be here...

Most ILLEGALS are good, some are bad. That's life no matter your color. P.S. Mexican is not a race, it is a nationality, and Mexicans aren't the only ones coming in.

One problem is that our government won't change the laws to allow easy migrant VISAS (it would be easy to do).

What you don't hear much about it that it is the fault of the USA gov that mexico is falling into (drug( civil war)

#1 war on drugs funds massive cartels.

#2 insecure boarder allows massive influx of same.

#3 USA uses "crisis" to expand police powers...again.... and AGAIN.

If I was a betting man I might think it was done on purpose and politicians were getting kickbacks, but I'm not a betting man.

Don't leave out #4...

NAFTA, the bill passed by a democrat liberal congress, signed by Clinton, which has caused 9/10 Mexican farm workers to lose their jobs, forcing them to come to USA for work.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

Delete

Warior Drake
Warior Drake

The Dragon Professor
Location: New York, currently homeless
Member Since: 14th Apr 2010
Total posts: 203
Posted:I agree with Dantana on the "ILLEGAL" immigrant part. I have nothing against immigration or immigrants. Just those that are coming to us illegally. Originally Posted By: Refuge CrewI am saying that despite all the points one could make against illegal immigration, in the end, compassion for their struggle should win the argument, what ever guise it might take.

[quote=Refuge Crew]Meaningless rule and invisible boundary = It is just a line on a map!
I completely disagree here though. It is NOT just a line on a map. The USA is not Canada and certainly not Mexico. Yeah sure we all are next to each other but that's like saying I live int he same apartment building as people so its entirely cool for me to just go into their apartments.

Its not a matter of "compassion" or humanitarianism. Its a matter of taking care of your own country first. Personally, I feel we have no obligation to take care of any of central America's problems. If their country is a bad place well boo-hoo, they should fix it. They're welcome to come here, that's why we have legal immigration, but we can't just accept anybody and everybody all at once. We have our own problems that need to be addressed long before we go being big brother again. But despite how I feel the USA has always been "big brother" in some regard. Who does border hopping really help? And even if you say you say we should give them all amnesty that's no different from legal immigration. Nothing can happen instantly, there'd be legal paperwork, getting everything pushed through the system. They could all save everyone the headache if they just did it legally from the start.


Don't let your world end with you

p.s. No, just in case you're going to ask, I did not misspell Warrior, its supposed to be like that.

Delete

Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:I think that this attitude is dangerous. Realistically, you aren't going to be able to stop the flow of illegal immigration by concentrating on just the US! If the quality of life was the same in Mexico what would be the point in crossing the invisible boundary. smile

I suspect maybe your personal experiences might have affected your view. The US isn't a lot of things! It isn't Iran or North Korea, but it's trying to tell them what they can and cannot do withing their boundaries. People need someone to blame and use as a scapegoat and I think you have fallen victim to this spin and distraction. The US isn't Canada but it shares enough of its agencies. Why should Mexico be left out of Norad decisions?

You're dealing with human beings! They need and want the same things you do. No political line should be worth a single human life. Call me a liberal if you like but it's better than being a fascist.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Delete

Warior Drake
Warior Drake

The Dragon Professor
Location: New York, currently homeless
Member Since: 14th Apr 2010
Total posts: 203
Posted:Call me a facist if you want, but I don't arbitrarily give a damn about people just because they exist. I know this sounds cold, maybe rude. Good, I think people need to hear it. There are a lot of people on this planet, you and I will never meet the majority of them. Even within our own country, state or city there will be people we'll never so much as see, let alone get the chance to talk to. How then, am I supposed to care about them? We all have our own problems, whether literally our own, family or friends. Everything I say is derived from personal experience, and I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure most people have a similar lifestyle in that we have enough on our plate just keeping our heads above water. I plan on taking care of my own problems before I start dealing with the world's problems. Understandably we're not a utopian society (Isolated, not perfect is what I mean) and problems don't just go away if you ignore them, that's why I believe strongly in a good foreign policy. Observe those around you so that you can keep the problem from flaring up and becoming yours whether you like it or not. I do see how that can be turned into making Mexico a better place so they like their home more and stay there, but I don't think we should be wasting our time with that. It wouldn't be terribly hard to just make the border more secure if we put the time into it and if we had a stricter policy on dealing with illegals they'd be more inclined to just go about it legally.

There is something fundamentally wrong in the logic of "dealing with human beings" in my brain. Because we're not, we're dealing with the idea of a nation and, on occasion, statistics. I grew up around death and idiocy, perhaps that has made me a bit of a cynic, but I don't believe a human life is worth much, even my own. I don't blame someone for disagreeing with me, as animals we're instinctively drawn to fight for survival. But the world will continue to tun whether one single life expires or millions are snuffed out. As they say, death is a part of life, don't fear it. Live for yourself and those you care about. Morals and humanity are relative and the only real reason to care for anything is to make sure it doesn't come back to bite you.

I'm not expecting to make any friends or rally support with this. Take it for what its worth and if I was unclear do feel free to ask me to elaborate.


Don't let your world end with you

p.s. No, just in case you're going to ask, I did not misspell Warrior, its supposed to be like that.

Delete

Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:I know that this won't solve it all but sometimes I think we need to look at treating the cause rather than the symptoms - increase foreign aid to to recommended 0.7% to improve the quality of life for people so that they don't feel the need to risk everything to go to another country.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Delete

WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Originally Posted By: Warior Drake It wouldn't be terribly hard to just make the border more secure if we put the time into it and if we had a stricter policy on dealing with illegals they'd be more inclined to just go about it legally.

without reading any other posts on this subject, the trouble with this is that it is a bandaid solution.

It wont fix the problem. WHether you care for other people or not, Im sure you agree that it is better to treat the problem, not the symptoms. If all you do is increase border security, the issues that cause migration will still be there, and cause a greater problem in the long run as the issue bottlenecks and finally explodes.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

Delete

Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Originally Posted By: Rougiesometimes I think we need to look at treating the cause rather than the symptoms - increase foreign aid

Originally Posted By: WAIf all you do is increase border security, the issues that cause migration will still be there, and cause a greater problem

EXACTLY! I'm pretty sure I said this, more or less.

@Warrior - I sincerely pity you!


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Delete


Similar Topics

Using the keywords [immigration reform debate] we found the following similar topics.
1. Learn > Juggling > Contact Ball Juggling > 4 ball pyramid melt and reform *help/resource
2. Forums > Immigration (reform) debate [23 replies]
3. Forums > Immigration is the new Gay Marriage (US Politics) [69 replies]
4. Forums > serious bust-a-move debate
5. Forums > serious bust-a-move debate [12 replies]

     Show more..