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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Just in case it slipped your attention wink

however: 10 things you need (but don't want) to know about the BP oil spill


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:shrug Poje - I can't see that sign

EoN... I do apply the same thinking to all beings. Now: why does a CEO get more $$ than an engineer on a oil rig? Why does a pilot get more $$ than a cabbie? Would you apply same standards in liability as you apply in payment? wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomshrug Poje - I can't see that sign

EoN... I do apply the same thinking to all beings. Now: why does a CEO get more $$ than an engineer on a oil rig? Why does a pilot get more $$ than a cabbie? Would you apply same standards in liability as you apply in payment? wink

Absolutely not and I honestly don't have the time to give a 101 level lecture on economics let alone a 200+ level one on international business. It's pretty clear the guy signing papers and making decisions is the sole determiner of if that engineer gets paid or even has an open position and that's just the tip of the iceberg,

Money doesn't just magically appear, nor do job positions, demand for product, so on and so forth. That's all common knowledge so what does that have anything to do with seperating individuals off the clock from them fulfilling their obligations on the clock?

In the end even the top of the chain has someone or many to aswer to. Neither you or I am an expert in all of the workings and those who are have their advise ignored on a frequent basis. One thing is a fact, you have no job or paycheck or criteria or benefits or anything without those who can provide it to you, those who cannot do a good job at it (regardless of how they provide) will pass on that misfortune and vice versa. That's life in our modern world and it existed like this in ancient times and it can be seen replicated in nature as well. It just is... wink

Like all that has happened the tables do turn every now and again, just like everything else! laugh3

*I gotta load up my car, be back Monday most likely*

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1276205828)
EDIT_REASON: not bad for using a smartphone lulz


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I can hardly wait for when you finally got time to educate me on economics and international business... smile





The BP oil spill is not an isolated event... maybe the spill is but the seepage is happening every single day.

I repeat: this is a wake up call!

Suddenly the issue was brought into (y)our very backyard... the anger and fury Americans (and the rest of the (western) world) feels towards BP today has been that of indigenous people for decades already.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1276236318)
EDIT_REASON: CENTURIES!


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Does this mean indigenous Americans feel twice the disappointment?

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...


Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:As a primary industry safety supervisor (coal mining in my case, but I suspect the principals are the same), I find it interesting that there's a whole bunch of finger pointing and blaming the CEO and the higher ups. OK, apparently BP has ignored advice that the pipework was inadequate for the job, but here's the thing - if that rig was working where QLD legislation applied, under any primary industry act or workplace health and safety act that I can think of, the workers not only have the right to down tools until it gets fixed, they also have the *obligation* to down tools until it gets fixed.

I'll qualify that by saying that the legislation I'm working under is the Coal Mining Safety and Health Act 1999 (I can hear Puk groan from here with that one), the Petroleum and Gas Production and Safety Act 2004, and the Workplace Health and Safety Act 2001. I don't know what a US offshore rig comes under, but if they don't have anything similar in law, perhaps it's about time it started.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:RC: ask them - you're closer up than me ;)+

Eera: that's quite an interesting point and I'm guilty as charged. I turns out that every body is really having a share in this.

Right now we might face the scenario, that this leak is to continue for months - if not years to come. Rumors go out that the oil starts leaking through the seabed (and maybe BP's CEO knew of this). IF that is the case, then as RC stated: we will see this oil up until the coasts of Europe and it might even exceed the Tchernobyl nuclear disaster in damages and consequences.

It might become one of THE biggest environmental disasters witnessed in our lifetime.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:FT: They're no more disappointed than any other group of people in the fabric of American society. I live inside the Chickasaw Nation, they exploit the resources all the same, including the oil rich deposits of south Oklahoma.

Eera: The US has so much legislation concerning oil drilling safety that it is difficult to even sort through. The US justice system is a miasma of red tape and failure agencies. Workers could whistle blow and strike citing poor safety, but it would have no immediate affect, if any at all. The workers would be left redundant and the company would find people to replace them whilst they combat the allegations with never ending litigation.

The agencies charged with enforcing safety and regulations are corrupted. It's sad that the companies will do anything to increase their profits and that these agencies are necessary. But the failure is firstly the corporations' involved, secondly the entity charged with enforcing these regulations.

As FT said, this is nothing new and it is a wake up call. There should be larger consequences for the corporations and for the government entities responsible for enforcement. I suspect there will be, from here onward. For now, oil is a necessary evil that can't be done away with.

BP has stated it will take full responsibility and pay all legitimate claims. The outcome of this claim remains to be seen. This disaster happened when it could have been prevented. It happened under BP's watch when it could have easily been any other oil company operating in the offshore drilling sites around the world. In BP's favour they have, so far, taken responsibility and have been attempting to clean up the oil. Is it PR, guilt, fear of far reaching repercussions or responsibility?

No matter what the case is here, part of the outcome for BP and it's figure head is being on the receiving end of the criticism and the blame.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...


Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:RC - there's always that argument that whistleblowers will be made redundant in every industry, but the legislation I'm familiar with goes on the talk about the obligations of the suppliers of plant (that's pretty much anything from the derrick to the earplugs, it's not a term restricted to big machines) - they have an obligation to ensure that they are supplying plant which is fit for its intended use, in this case it clearly wasn't.

So you have people working on the rig who knew something was up, you have people in charge who knew something was up, you have the operators and ownders of the rig who knew something was up, and you have the suppliers of the plant who presumably knew something was up, and yet no-one said "that's enough, down tools"?

I've seen mines which produce 12 mTa coking coal closed due to one section feeling unsafe; not through whinging about wages or industrial action, but simply because the mechanical fitters were finding taht at night they couldn't see where the haul road was due to bright lights from the CHPP and there being a few near-misses with haul trucks. Under the CMS&H Act people have a personal responasability for safety and can be prosecuted and jailed if they don't discharge their obligations, and that makes individuals sit up and take notice and be proactive (under Workplace OH&S it's the company that gets fined, not the individual, which is why construction sites suffer from so many accidents compared to mining). Maybe it's that personal responsability that's missing in this case.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.


georgemc
georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 16th Oct 2006
Total posts: 2387
Posted:Here's a thought or rather a handful of observations - I think it comes down to a question of scale:

I was thinking that here in NZ our companies seem more respoonsible and fair with the workers having much more say in what happens in terms of safety etc. But then the more I thought about I realised they're not necessarily any better morally than any other company, it's just that our companies are so much smaller than these big corporations that you hear being quoted for this kind of thing.

I mean NZ based Fonterra had a big problem with their baby powder and some of the company people went to jail for it - admittedly they were some of the key people in China not kiwi's but it was a start and the kiwi's were certainly under the spotlight.

More recently Cadbury started using palmoil in their chocolate in NZ and many people were outraged and switched to Whitakers forcing Cadbury to go back on this practice. While Cadbury is a reasonably sized company, not just NZ, this was a noticeable dent in their NZ business to force the u-turn.

BP is so huge that it would take an awfully determined effort by an awfully large number of people globally to have the same impact. That being said it is possible that a regional change say of everyone in Florida switching to another petrol supplier would be noticed - that's still an awful lot of people, and while it might be noticed, would it be enough for them to make any real changes?

The trouble is that in order to plunder the earths reserves of the expensive stuff we "need", these days it needs huge resources and the kind of money that only a large corporation can afford. Look at oil, gold, diamond etc mining. Mostly all the "family" businesses trying to do it can't and they have all gradually merged/bought out/absorbd such that it is now the domain of the mega-corporations. When a corporation and the mining operations are that big, the stakes become very high and it also becomes necessary to involve the local politicians to get things done (legally or otherwise). So undoubtedly along the way, strategic alliances are made and power/prestige is attained. As time goes by this spreads and the politics becomes so entangled with the business it is hard to know when one stops and the other begins. And I don't mean to imply that this is necessarily corruption - if there is corruption it just adds another dimension. Would anyone dispute that American foreign policy is determined without input/direction from corporate interests? And not just America - it's just that the media makes it more visible there.

Solution? Ban corporations and stick to "family" businesses?? It might make companies more socially responsible, but you wouldn't be able to achieve the expensive things. Maybe that's ok though too - go back to a tribal kind of era finding other ways of doing the things that the expensive stuff provides. That would however mean no more techy gadgets as a family business wouldn't have the scale to create the ever increasingly powerful silicon chips that make it all possible (for example).

I rather think we have become too accustomed to our little luxeries to contemplate giving up such a life.

So if this kind of occasional event is the price of progress, maybe the best we can hope for is that corporations are still made up of people and people are still "human". As long as there is enough public opinion the feedback loop to control their actions is there. The question is really how much public opinion does it take to force a change in a corporation? The bigger they are, the more it takes, but also, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

I assume that the weight of public opinion will fall on BP as time goes on. There will be legal things and there will be commercial things. Some people will say "they're too big, we can't make a difference" but if enough people felt that BP had acted irresponsibly they actually could make a difference. I guess though that while there is enough people that think this is a terrible thing that has happened, probably the largest percentage of them are simply of the view that it's a terrible ACCIDENT and are not yet of the opinion that it was criminal NEGLIGENCE, and therefore not worthy of action to teach BP a lesson. If it does emerge that there was negligence involved I suspect that the public would be galvanised to take personal action (eg boycotts) that would be felt and force change.


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin


Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:George, in modern mining terms they no longer recognise the word "accident" as everything is preventable; it's "incident" now.

Re the point about getting the pollies involved. Any new venture takes a massive long time to get off the ground, I'm not sure the general populace realises how much effort is involved. One of the mines I'm involved in developing right now has a history going back to 1984 of continuous studies, environmental impacts, feasabilities etc. High impact activities don't simply involve getting a lease and rolling up with some big yellow trucks. The time that it takes to actually get a venture off the ground entire governments come and go.

While the idea of family ventures is nice, the costs are abslutely prohibitive for a reason; efficiency and personal safety. An exploration rig costs about $18,000 per day to hire, plus the costs of the logging, sampling, ash quality, packer testing etc on top of that. A 400m exploration hole takes roughly 12 days to drill, you need one every 50m to model your seam so you can work out the spacing of your chocks, where the seam actually goes for your longwall, how much space you can give between seam and country rock etc. And this is assuming that phase actually pays off and isn't abandoned like nine out of every 10 ventures.

I suppose we could go back to the old family groups doing board-and-pillar mining with a pick, but the fact is modern techniques are increadibly safe to the extent I can name every single worker killed in the QLD coal industry for the last 5 years, as every death makes news.

And for every death, someone is going to jail for it, which is why it's so safe in the first place.

Anyway, I think I digress...


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.


georgemc
georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 16th Oct 2006
Total posts: 2387
Posted:Originally Posted By: EeraAnyway, I think I digress...
Nope - I think you're helping prove my point - I just didn't say it very well since I'd already said too much! I wasn't seriously suggesting it was feasible in this modern world to have small companies doing those major things so we have to put up with large corporations for such ventures.

And the best we can hope for in these large corporations is that people are human.


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:... and there exactly is the point: in remembering people who run these global mega-corporations that they still are fellow human beings and by no means above the law.

But at this point I doubt that anyone is going to jail as a result of this disaster.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:
of course people only complain when its in their backyard, despite the same censored happening all the world.

nigeria and oil

thats why although compassionate to suffering, im a little cynical when the USA gets up in arms about yet another disaster (be it natural or manmade) that has been happening in non-western countries for ages...


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Careful Dentrassi - you may get accused of spewing poison wink The spill will go on for months - but what about the decades of spillage that happened outside "our backyards" for decades?





Saying that working for a company - whose policies goes against your own ethics - may be the only job you get (IMNSHO) is a lie!

It's the same lame excuse as if a German SS soldiers who worked at a concentration camps claims that "he followed orders". It is a lie! And I don't buy it anymore.

You work for a pollutive company/ industry, you're part of the problem, you're corrupted by money vs. ecological sanity. You're either completely ignorant, helplessly optimistic or plain stupid.

You work for the industry, you better admit that you either don't give a frickin damn (which is okay) or you have the whistle ready 24/7 and stay at risk to get fired over it - because all the rest of us depend on YOU.

Needed to vent this [/rant]


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom

You're either completely ignorant, helplessly optimistic or plain stupid.



Or simply supplying a product that is in demand because of the end user; you and everyone else.

Seriously, take a look at what's around you, how many things can you see that are not the end result of the extractive industries? Just stretching out my hand I can touch stuff the result of mining iron, bauxite, coltran, gold, lead, silver, zinc, silica, lithium and ilmanite, processed by the petrochemical and coking coal and energised by pulverised coal dust injection.

And that's just my mobile phone.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.


EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: EeraOriginally Posted By: FireTom

You're either completely ignorant, helplessly optimistic or plain stupid.



Or simply supplying a product that is in demand because of the end user; you and everyone else.

Seriously, take a look at what's around you, how many things can you see that are not the end result of the extractive industries? Just stretching out my hand I can touch stuff the result of mining iron, bauxite, coltran, gold, lead, silver, zinc, silica, lithium and ilmanite, processed by the petrochemical and coking coal and energised by pulverised coal dust injection.

And that's just my mobile phone.

*high five* I love people who just tell it how it is because it's the truth. In the end everything is everything when it all comes down to it and if we all broke down all the components involved in us living day to day in industrialized nations this picture would become more and more clear to many. We either go prehistoric or accept things for what they truly are.

*happy to be an absurdist and not get bent out of shape over things out of my control, providing my own purpose to the journey and accepting the meaninglessness of existence to make the most of being here on earth*


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)


WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom


It's the same lame excuse as if a German SS soldiers who worked at a concentration camps claims that "he followed orders". It is a lie! And I don't buy it anymore.



not wanting to make what they did ok in any stretch of the imagination, but studies, research and history have taught us that we would do the same thing in this situation as the German people did.

its easy taking the high moral ground sitting in an armchair.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.


Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:ahh ive missed you firetom hug2

Originally Posted By: FireTomCareful Dentrassi - you may get accused of spewing poison wink The spill will go on for months - but what about the decades of spillage that happened outside "our backyards" for decades?

err yes. precisely. that was my point about my previous post...

Quote:
Saying that working for a company - whose policies goes against your own ethics - may be the only job you get (IMNSHO) is a lie!
yep no disagreement there. Ive never encountered a policy in my firm that goes against my ethics. Its not as if we are like the eco-villians in captain planet you know. but then again, australia has some of the stricted industrial environmental standard (and repercussion for infringments) in the world. If i was working for a nigerian based oil firm on the other hand...

Quote:
You work for a pollutive company/ industry, you're part of the problem, you're corrupted by money vs. ecological sanity. You're either completely ignorant, helplessly optimistic or plain stupid.

ok, so i work for an ethical firm, in an industry where there are some dodgy practices in other locations on the planet. does that make me the devil?

Quote: You work for the industry, you better admit that you either don't give a frickin damn (which is okay)
i think its pretty clear i do give a damn

Quote: or you have the whistle ready 24/7 and stay at risk to get fired over it -
yep. no problem there. ive never had a problem raising environmental, health, and safety issues.

Quote: because all the rest of us depend on YOU.

too right you do. i was at an outdoor party the other weekend when a hippy laid into me, because i make no secret of my job. Its funny being abused by a hippy sitting in a plastic chair, under a plastic tarpaulin, with aluminium tent poles, drinking mulled wine cooked on a gas burner in metal saucepans, with a massive nylon and fibreglass tent, wearing polar fleece, listening to electronically produced music, projected out by a 5kw speaker system (powered by a generator), all of it trucked in from 500km away by petroleum and diesel vans, and watching firetwirlers spinning with aluminium/kevlar wicks dipped in shellsol d60...

you get my drift. Life Cycle Analysis is great for revealing hypocracy.

you can strap yourself to a chain fence, or sit in a comfortable chair and rant away on various internet forums about how horrible industry is and how THEY must fix it. Or you can accept responsability as a consumer, and attempt to change things from within.

last project i worked on i worked out a way to save 4 million m3 per annum of water for the 15 year life of a mining plant. We also worked out a way to have no tailings dam. No waste. Energy and Water going in, metal oxide coming out, and no other waste.

happy with what i do? damn right im happy with what i do. I sleep comfortably every night knowing ive done a hell of alot more that 30,000 idiots whose idea of environmental action is to join a facebook group.

Vent away my friend! that was Discussion is for!!


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.


Puk
Puk

Sweet talented nutter
Location: Brisbane Oz
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2002
Total posts: 2615
Posted:You know i work in similar industry . And youd be surprised by how many oil rigs are unsafe .

And bp should of had soo many plans of what if and we should do. Instead of guessing and trying something after the event .


that shrewd and knavish sprite

Called Robin Good Fellow ; are you not he that is frighten of the maidens of the villagery - fairy

I am the merry wander of the night -puk


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:@ EoN: it's quite ... not my approach falling for marketing arguments. BUT in case that we will have to continue accepting highly pollutive industries in order to maintain our lifestyles... I choose... guess... another lifestyle. Because IF continuation of this lifestyle means that we loose the very foundation on which we live on, then it's quite pointless to continue cutting the tree we're sitting on. Wouldn't you think?

This is not armchair politics - this is about demanding that industries work clean (which they can, if they want/ have to)... "higher prices"... ? Maybe as much as "lower profit margins"?

@ Woodland Apple: not quite true. These studies (however applicable they are in this case) show that many - if not most - people would do the same... maybe through raising awareness and compassion we'll be able to come to a world full of "Schindler's and his kind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_who_resisted_Nazism). [/pipedream]

@ Dentrassi: re hug2 smile

Originally Posted By: Dok, so i work for an ethical firm, in an industry where there are some dodgy practices in other locations on the planet. does that make me the devil?

How could it? Your job turns you evil, if you look the other way or commit crimes against humanity or ecology. If you (ethically) work for a company with unethical values, you may have to reconsider (IMHO), raise awareness within the company and to your superiors - and maybe drop out, if nothing changes.

Originally Posted By: Dyou get my drift. Life Cycle Analysis is great for revealing hypocracy.

laugh3 completely - the one and only reason for now that we can communicate is based on fossil fuels. And besides: I'm proud for you! hug well done. Apart from that it's all about adjusting your lifestyle (for which reason I gladly missed out on the Fusion festival last WE - ranting to the organizers that IF they would not give fireperformers any incentive, AT LEAST they should provide them with high grade fuel to reduce environmental impact.

I am sick and tired of companies (or venues) who are "willing to sponsor (environmental) projects" (and use them as a marketing byproduct) to clean their slates. Which is why I rather declined offers of people for (ad)sponsors to the InJuCo.

IF ANYTHING - reduce the impact you already have. No need to fix anything, if you don't break it in the first place.

@ Puk: completely! They should have worked out a plan LONG TIME AGO... and not just work out a plan but have it TESTED!

I hope they take them apart and changed my stance: BOYCOT BP! Teach the shareholders and CEO's a lesson they won't forget. (Allegedly JP Morgan owns almost 30% of BP - which is misleading, because JP Morgan is only owning it on behalf of "ordinary" people)....

We *cough* or those holding funds *cough* need to get more aware of what we spend our bucks on - and who works with this money.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom
@ Woodland Apple: not quite true. These studies (however applicable they are in this case) show that many - if not most - people would do the same... maybe through raising awareness and compassion we'll be able to come to a world full of "Schindler's and his kind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_who_resisted_Nazism). [/pipedream]


or we can look at things like the Stanford prison experiment wiki linki to get a much better understanding of how people really act.

perhaps read Ross and Nisbetts 'The person and the situation' or
'Does high self-esteem cause better
performance, interpersonal success, happiness,
or healthier lifestyles?'
by Roy F. Baumeister
to see how successful manipulative changing of character can be, like you are suggesting.

Maybe now take a look at the article "boot camp deaths" by Gregory D. Kutz, to see the repercussions of these actions.

Im not being too argumentative on this one, my point is making a broad statement like "raise awareness and compassion" or "personal development" not only simply does not work, but can cause harm.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.


EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom@ EoN: it's quite ... not my approach falling for marketing arguments. BUT in case that we will have to continue accepting highly pollutive industries in order to maintain our lifestyles... I choose... guess... another lifestyle. Because IF continuation of this lifestyle means that we loose the very foundation on which we live on, then it's quite pointless to continue cutting the tree we're sitting on. Wouldn't you think?

I don't buy into marketing ploys, but it's beneficial to look at the reality of the big picture. A few hundred thousand consumers boycotting or changing their ways can't make a dent when there are millions and millions of people who still provide companies with plenty of business knowingly or otherwise. If you have the ability to use a computer with internet access think about the long chain of events where if you did boycott intentionally you probably are still funding a huge mega corporations with ties to others. It's not just about fuel, but about manufacturing, utilities, transportation, maintenance and up keep where so many support business they don't even know about.

I can't really believe your lifestyle and levels of consumption are much different than my own if you have electricity, running water, mass manufactured goods or handmade goods made with mass manufactured equipment, if you buy groceries, if you travel...

The only people I would even listen to that argument from I have a low chance of ever meeting because they live in a tribal culture that hasn't been tainted by invasions, outreach efforts, or government barter programs. No matter how much we try, intentionally or not, we are at a state of human development where everyone plays a part in huge things without their knowledge. If the people had the power to over take the minority which are the wealthy business people and such don't you think we'd have incentive to utilize the power for our own benefit to put them in their place and even the playing field? Like without an accident or some horrid event to motivate us to take control of ourselves and who is truly controlling us?

If your answer is "Yes" why hasn't it worked and if your answer is "No" think about why...

As admirable as the intention of making change is, the reality of such change actually coming about and the realistic numbers and amount of deregulation required to make it at all probable I know is not going to happen in modern culture.

I hate capitalism, globalization, and regulation because it has stripped away the importance to the individual and has also made more hopeless struggles and catch 22s of the human condition that are all unnecessary and based on an "individual's" bright idea to come together and make a "productive society". Too bad so many way back when were easily conned, and now in modern times it's taught in such gentle polite terms very few realize they're doing wrong.

Funny huh?

Quote:This is not armchair politics - this is about demanding that industries work clean (which they can, if they want/ have to)... "higher prices"... ? Maybe as much as "lower profit margins"?

If I had to count the fear factor downfalls of this approach I wouldn't come up with what half of those who put regulations into place would come up with. Regardless accidents will always happen and will never be appropriately planned for when entering into uncharted territory.

BTW I didn't make the armchair politics statement, just for the record.

Quote:We *cough* or those holding funds *cough* need to get more aware of what we spend our bucks on - and who works with this money.

This level of awareness would probably do more to piss people off and make them feel hopeless/care less and give up more so than it would produce positive change. It's all one big vicious cycle but so is life! Need oxygen to live, but it's a corrosive so therefore we die. wink

I'm not trying to argue, but really there's a balance to everything and even with the best of intentions terrible things happen... like wars... I'm not for a moment going to give any lifeform more credit or value than my own be it a human, animal, plant, planet, or molecule of air, it shouldn't be too hard to understand why even if it's just that the thing I hate wasting most is my own effort!

------------------------------------------------------

On to new updates this disaster has caused one suicide in the gulf by a fisherman scared about his future financial impact (it's sad, but I'm not going to judge and understand why he made that choice) and on top of that hurricanes from developing storm systems have become a reality which will put a halt to containment efforts along with spread the mess.

I didn't see anyone who has updated these two things being shown on the news so I thought I'd add it.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:(my previous post was written @ 6am... rolleyes )

WA... so you say we're doomed as mankind is cursed by the innate evil... umm wink

Thanks for the links - I'll not go into all of them in detail. But I guess I get what you're trying to put across...

Stanford Prison Experiment (as well as the Third Wave for that matter) are example of how to bring out the worst in man. You feel that it's the same as working for a petrochemical/ nuclear/ mining/ biogenetic or any other industry with highest potential of impact on man and nature? I'd partly agree.

I'd like to point out that the other side of the medal exists as well and that extreme situations also appeal to the lighter side of people. It depends.

Why now - if this thesis are universally human - people volunteer to clean up. Why did people go to Haiti and tried to help there? Why do people donate money to organizations - hoping to make a positive difference?

I'm far from falling for the marketing of 'evil'..

[edit] on second thought





you may be right... :madrant:

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1277750535)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomWhy now - if this thesis are universally human - people volunteer to clean up. Why did people go to Haiti and tried to help there? Why do people donate money to organizations - hoping to make a positive difference

To look good, to impress others, for their reputations, to gain power, to gain admiration, to play a part in controlling others, to make others indebted to them, for opportunities based on character to be offered, to push their products and innovations, free publicity...

Do I need to continue?


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceOriginally Posted By: FireTomWhy now - if this thesis are universally human - people volunteer to clean up. Why did people go to Haiti and tried to help there? Why do people donate money to organizations - hoping to make a positive difference

To look good, to impress others, for their reputations, to gain power, to gain admiration, to play a part in controlling others, to make others indebted to them, for opportunities based on character to be offered, to push their products and innovations, free publicity...

Do I need to continue?

[le sigh]


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:That's a joke right? lolsign

Even a 10 year old could point that shortlist out, like people were born yesterday. All the showboating and ad space taken up by missionaries and humanitarian/special interest groups asking for money and we're supposed to think their intentions are pure?

Think again! lol2

You really want me to believe people do these things strictly for the good of others with no other perks or rewards? Wow, I don't care whether someone thinks it'll get them into heaven quicker, will look good on a resume, or are trying to purify their own misdoings (I'll leave cult like behavior, control, networking, and financial gain out of this one) it's still for selfish motives they are all different flavors of the same evil. rolleyes

Good one! Yeah, denial is totally not my scene buddy so I'm going to leave this thread be in the name of saving on my electric bill to be nice to my wallet which benefits me a great deal (mainly my grumbly tummy)... Along with lessening my impact on resources during a heat wave! laugh3

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1277755877)
EDIT_REASON: typos


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceOriginally Posted By: Frost_DreamerLike I said before in my last post, my friends and I are having parties/events where people buy tickets and all of the proceeds go to two organizations that we've found who are helping with clean up and rescuing the animals caught in the oil spill. Join Pirates For The Gulf on Facebook. That's one of the events we're having. We're trying to find spinners to perform at the event right now. Even though this disaster is horrible, we can try to do something positive. Complaining never got anyone anywhere. Parties are an awesome and fun way to get people involved and to help out.

A friend of mine is doing something similar, but for a different cause with animal rescue and she has had a very positive response. I'm in your area, send me a PM or add me to the facepage with the details and I'll see what I can do. I'm supporting my other friend's event in VA, but it's not until September. I look up the group/event page today. smile

umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomOriginally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceOriginally Posted By: Frost_DreamerLike I said before in my last post, my friends and I are having parties/events where people buy tickets and all of the proceeds go to two organizations that we've found who are helping with clean up and rescuing the animals caught in the oil spill. Join Pirates For The Gulf on Facebook. That's one of the events we're having. We're trying to find spinners to perform at the event right now. Even though this disaster is horrible, we can try to do something positive. Complaining never got anyone anywhere. Parties are an awesome and fun way to get people involved and to help out.

A friend of mine is doing something similar, but for a different cause with animal rescue and she has had a very positive response. I'm in your area, send me a PM or add me to the facepage with the details and I'll see what I can do. I'm supporting my other friend's event in VA, but it's not until September. I look up the group/event page today. smile

umm

Everyone wins, including me by having a fun social gathering with entertainment to go to while doing something that makes a friend happy and I take the word of others that proceeds help creatures by funding those to come to their aid...

How is that confusing? Pretty straightforward if you ask me...*so baffled*

Well, at least I don't front shrug

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1277758019)
EDIT_REASON: just to set the record straight


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)


WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom
WA... so you say we're doomed as mankind is cursed by the innate evil... umm wink


No not really, just saying that problems wont get fixed by trying to change peoples personalities, as we are creatures of habit that are highly influenced by the environments we are in. There is no point trying to take a high moral stand when in all probability we would do the same in the same situation.

In not preaching any sort of solution (I agree there is a problem), just saying that the solution is not going to be found by focusing on character change in people, as this does more damage than good.


Quote:Stanford Prison Experiment (as well as the Third Wave for that matter) are example of how to bring out the worst in man

The standfrord prison experiment was actually designed to prove that Americans were different than the Germans and the Russians. That the atrocities committed were as a result of an unaware and I guess you could say 'evil' culture. That a persons upbringing and moral compass can be different when coming from a more compassionate or enlightened environment and culture.

The experiment was intended to demonstrate mans capacity for good in bad situations. yet what it does show is that it is not the case, a good person put in a bad situation can do (and has been proven to do) bad things.

The boot camp deaths article I mentioned is about the avoidable and totally unnecessary deaths of people in rehab and troubled youth programs. deaths caused by good people trying to do good things using the misguided belief that problems in society can be solved by changing peoples character.

Im not suggesting humans only have a propensity for evil, you are absolutely correct that there are good people out there doing amazing things. I am just trying to show that by making character change a focus in solutions does not work, and by focusing on it actually causes more harm than good. and that is all Im trying to say.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.


WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Epitome,

reading your posts you are right and yet so absolutely wrong at the same time.


Quote:You really want me to believe people do these things strictly for the good of others with no other perks or rewards? hard to believe isnt it? but it does help if you actually try to do good for goods sake yourself...then it gets easier to understand
Quote:Wow, I don't care whether someone thinks it'll get them into heaven quicker just butting in to point out that as a christian, good deeds DOES NOT get you into heaven. In fact, if that is your intent then that is the way to MISS OUT in going to heaven
Quote: will look good on a resume, or are trying to purify their own misdoings (I'll leave cult like behavior, control, networking, and financial gain out of this one) Im so glad then, that you did leave them out then umm Quote:it's still for selfish motives they are all different flavors of the same evil.

my my, such a pessimistic soul. So quick to judge peoples motives and quicker still to speak on behalf of all the peoples of the world


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.


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