Page: 1234
IdubI
HoP Lurker
Location: Medway, Kent, UK
Member Since: 7th Jun 2002
Total posts: 272
Posted:I cannot get my head around the backward/reverse weave.

I try and fail, the video just doesn't help.

please anyone, I'm begging you help me, I haven't learnt a new move for like 2 days.

Many, many, many thanks to whomever can help me.

And thread the needle escapes me as well, but I think I just need to practice that until it does work.


*Oh, just for a minute,* my bed said.
"Don't lie to me," I grumbled.
*But you're so tired...*

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Epitome, can you do the reverse weave to start with? Is this just a transition issue or are you attempting to get into the rev weave by simply transitioning into it?

Some people can just do this, but if your mind isnt set up the right way, you'll have to try a different learning approach.

Try spinning reverse split time by your sides, then do one rotation of a rev 2 beat and return to spinning rev split time by your sides. Do that again until it feels comfortable.

If you struggle with that, use one poi and imagine the other poi and where its supposed to go. Remember, we are only dealing with a 2 beat for now.

Once you've got one side feeling comfy, try it with the other hand on top.


hug

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:I'm not sure of how to start it instantly like I can the forward weave, is that possible?

It seems I can get a very sloppy 2 beat reverse going, but the second I try for more I whack myself pretty hard. Part of the problem is I don't like the poi swinging toward my face (I don't know how to avoid this and it causes a lot of flinching), but the other part is that I'm very dominantly right handed/sided. I fear this is going to create much difficulty with anything going in reverse, I won't be permanently hindered by too dominant of a hand will I?


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I have a lot less issues with my left hand now than I used to, but it often won't do what its told.

You will have to get used to them flying toward the face, you may even have to take a few blows to the face, I know I did! grin


hug

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:LOL As long as it's par for the course, that information is pretty encouraging! I'm having a difficult time understanding where the poi are supposed be swinging after the second hand switch where my left is leading. The flow isn't natural there and I believe that's the fact that makes it "3 beat". I'll keep working on it and try to explain the muscle memory of it in time.

I should probably give my left some individual attention but I seem to do much worse with one poi and playing pretend with the other hand. I have to see them both move and feel them to pick up on what's wrong, so I hope that approach isn't bad because learning with one is just not going to happen.

Thanks for helping me pick that apart though, for sure! thankx


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Sister Eleven
Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2009
Total posts: 1277
Posted:It's possible to start right into a reverse weave, yes.

And everyone has problems with their non-dominant hand, so it will occasionally come up, but it shouldn't seriously impede you in any permanent way.

I think getting comfortable with reverse spins and getting less flinchy will help. Also when the weave fails, and you get hit, try to just freeze exactly as you are. Then look at where your hands are and what they're doing and compare it to what your resources say they should be doing. But most of all, try to find someone in person to take a look.


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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philhews
newbie

Member Since: 25th Jul 2008
Total posts: 37
Posted:I find a number of people when learning backwards weaves (it's more obvious on a 5 beat) will see the poi coming towards them as they cross their hands, then get scared of it, lift their hands up and towards their face to protect them or try to duck out of the way.

If you can spin slowly with slightly soft headed poi then you have no need to worry about being hit as it won't hurt, and the more times you are hit then the less worried you get.

In terms of getting the weave right instead of picking your hands up and towards you concentrate on sweeping them well across your body in a smooth but quick motion. So when going from right to left send your right hand underneath and move them both all the way across to your left side, this gets the poi well out of your way. Once you have it sorted the movements can become less exaggerated, but this helped when I was learning it.


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Hahah, it really is par for the course, Epitome. I hit myself rather a lot when I first started whirling.

hug

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JaredW
JaredW

enthusiast
Location: Flying south for the winter.
Member Since: 26th Oct 2009
Total posts: 375
Posted:Hey guys, I don't if any of you are still having trouble with the reverse 3 beat, didn't really read it that close lol, but seems to be a hot topic so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

When I started learning this I found it easiest to start the reverse coming out of a spiral wrap. I would do a forward three beat into a spiral wrap on the right side, then in reverse I would cross to my left, do three beats, cross back to the right for three and then stop.

For me it was much easier to start that way, and you should have plenty of time to get from right, to left, and back again before your planes get so jacked up you have to worry about getting hit. Which, as a side note, just don't worry about getting hit. I've found that most times I get hit it's because I saw one coming, and instead of pulling the poi away from me, I tried to dodge it. Then I would either get hit by it anyway, or pull the other one off plane and get hit by that one.


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AllToreUp
AllToreUp

the large print giveth, and the small print taketh away...
Location: Santa Fe/Albuquerque, NM
Member Since: 21st May 2009
Total posts: 19
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonHahah, it really is par for the course, Epitome. I hit myself rather a lot when I first started whirling.

Hey, at least it hurts less every time you get hit haha tongue2


I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Well as you develop a bit more precision you can hit yourself a bit less... or at least hit yourself in less... crucial areas.

hug

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Sister Eleven
Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2009
Total posts: 1277
Posted:Originally Posted By: AllToreUpHey, at least it hurts less every time you get hit haha tongue2

Yeah, but it bruises more tongue2


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Does anyone have any advice on going into this from the forward weave and doing a 180 degree turn? I'm getting the most fruitful starts using this method until the big whack that always comes from my left poi, but it's helping me understand the reversal in motion and ingraining it to muscle memory.

Any pointers on this transfer?


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Can you do the reverse 3 beat as is? Is it just the transition you're struggling with or more so as I understand it the movement itself?

If its the transition try this...

While spinning the forwards weave, do a "lock out" Which is to seperate the poi on one side of your body so they can spin independantly of one another.

For explanations sake I'll say do it to the left side, but it doesnt really matter.

So you've got your poi spinning on their own on your left, now turn your body 180 degrees until you're doing reverse on your right side. Now begin the reverse 3 beat.

Thats all the transition really is but cutting down the number of beats you're in that wall plane right down to their minimum.


Good luck and happy spinning!!


hug

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Thanks much that sounds like a very cleaned up version of what I have so far, those details will help a lot.

I can 3 beat in reverse now but not for very long and it's pretty sloppy then ends in ruins.

I'm getting a cleaner start and longer run with this method thankfully. The other challenge is after it starts somehow it turns into a forward weave again sometimes after the first few passes. Is that common? I've considered drawing a diagram for what poi is supposed to be where for each rotation even to ensure that mistake stops.

My subconscious and reflexes are working against me keeping it going so I think setting up my muscle memory to go reverse on auto pilot is a good way around it, so far a little better results. Kinda like getting a push start when learning to ride a bike redface

It's the only beginner move that has me stumped and isn't polished, all the other stuff I'm working on like air wraps, wrist wraps, and 5 beat weave forwards is coming a lot quicker and cleaner. I'm ready to blame my dyslexia on this hang up, but it shall be clean and have a good duration with time and practice!!!LOL

meditate

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1258904173)


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Strange things have been known to happen re:fwd and reverse weaves. Try watching the hand that is going from top to bottom as you do the movement... then after a little while of that, try watching the hand that goes from bottom to top as you do it. You can even make the arc a little wider if you like, too! ^_^

hug

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AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:Hehe, welcome to the wonderful world of poi! Periodically wile learning poi (even after 10 years) you will find yourself in unfamiliar territory and your body will make unconscious reactions to get you back to a pattern that is more present in "muscle memory". This includes a reverse weave magically morphing back to a forwards weave!?

Be patient and persistant. Your body will figure it out. We have eons of evolution behind our kinesthetic faculties being able to adapt and imprint new patterns on the subconscious level: you don't have to think about every little thing the horse (your body) mechanically does, your consciousness (the rider) only needs to direct it until it has imprinted the pattern pretty well.

To optimize this, practice patterns that you are struggling to overcome a few hours before sleep. There is sleep research that shows learning this way can optimize integration by as much as 40%. Current neuroscience models for REM sleep say it happens to solidify new synaptic connections and prune the ones that are non-sense. Seems that's why you can wake up the next day or come back a few days later, and that move you were struggling with has magically "clicked".

This is one of the beautiful things about poi: You start to learn that whenever something is challenging or frustrating, if you are patient and persistant, you WILL get it pretty quickly, and then it feels awesome when you do. No matter how long you do it, there is always going to be challenges to overcome and periodic rewards of feeling like you kick ass a little more for each little new accomplishment!

On the flip side, where there aren't little hurdles to overcome, there is Flow. Feeling exhilarated and pushed to the edge of your ability, wile have a sense of effortlessness is an addictive state to be in. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi has written several books about it.


That said, here are a few pointers about spinning in forwards and reverse:

Depending on the direction you are spinning either the thumb side or the pinky side of your hand will lead the movement of your arm. This corresponds to 2 bones in your forearm: the Radius creates the thumb-side edge of your arm, wile the Ulna creates the pinky side edge of your arm.

Generally if you are spinning forwards and doing some sort of cross-over (ie a 3-beat weave, or any figure8 sort of movement really), your Radius edge is leading.

Generally if you are spinning reverse and doing some sort of cross-over (ie a 3-beat weave, or any figure8 sort of movement really), your Ulna edge is leading.

It is subtle with poi, more noticeable with staff, clubs, devilstix, etc... since those props don't bend and therefore your arms have to bend more to accomodate. I tend to demonstrate this with control sticks from a set of devil stix when they are handy.

Anyhow find yourself a stick or 2.

Try doing a figure8 (cross-over) wile spinning the stick forwards. You will likely find that it is natural for the tip of the stick to lead the cross-over followed by the thumb-side of the hand, radius-edge of the forearm, and the elbow trails.

Now try it i reverse. You may find that it is natural that the elbow leads the cross-over, followed by the Ulna edge of the forearm, pinky-side of the hand and finally the stick itself. If this helps think of it as making upwards diagonal cuts with a sword.

Having practiced a bit with each hand especially in reverse, go back to your poi. Remember, it is more subtle with poi but when doing a reverse cross-over move (ie reverse 3-beat weave) your elbow/Ulna/pinky leads your arm movements!

For turning your weaves, What MNS is illustrating with Lockouts is right on. Have a look at degrees of twist: part of the Encyclo-poi-dia 2 Primer vid Zan made:


#t=0h1m10s

This is another way to start thinking about how your arms, wrists, even the poi themselves twist and un twist around each other.

To add to what MNS said: stand facing the proverbial wall with your poi dangling, and slowly rotate your hands around each other, so that your right hand twists over your left hand, ending in a 1st-degree twist. now unwind the other way until and keep going until your left twists over your right into a 1st-degree twist. Just keep pingponging back and forth like this to get your hands used to twisting and untwisting in "wall-plane".

Once you are feeling in the groove with that, watch as your hands are twisting clockwise. As your left hand is about to twist from 0-degree to 1st-degree: this is where you will start to weave forwards, by turning your body in the direction the hand wants to go (in this case your body will do a quarter-turn to the right). Try quick starting a forwards weave this way. Since you're comfortable with forwards weave, this should be pretty smooth.

Now from clockwise again, try a quarter-turn to your left instead! Pay attention to how your right hand is twisting under the left from 0 to 1st-degree, and this is when it will upswing to your left side into a reverse weave!

In a reverse weave your hands take turns twisting underneath the other arm and crossing to the other side... using upswings, with your elbow and Ulna subtly leading... which requires a little more body movement at fist. Focus your attention on twisting under and swinging up and over to the other side.

You can try these things with a staff to make it easy at a slower speed: Hold your staff with both hands, starting palms-up, with a loose grip, so your fingers can twist around the staff as you spin. Spinning a staff this way is just like you made your poi ridged and connected them in the middle as one.

For the visual spatial people, to do the reverse of just about any move, flip it upside down... what was on the top is happening on the bottom and vice versa. If it went cross over, twist under, cross back under... it will go cross under, twist over, cross back over when reversed.
{one exception is pendulum moves, since when you flip it, gravity stillll wants to pul the pendulum down}

For those that dig timing and things temoral, reversing a move is literally like playing it backwards. Video yourself and watch it on rewind.
{one exception is moves using inside planes. Not only do you need to play it in reverse, but you need to flip to the other inside frame, ie if you were forwards and framing inside below your armpits, now you will be reverse and framing inside over your shoulders.}


+Alien Jon

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:MNS and Alien Jon thanks so much these are some very good details that I fully intend on printing out to have handy. It's the amount of detail I was looking for too. I'm going to give it some time daily apart from regular practice and see how it goes and I'll get back to you in a few weeks on progress. The staff and devil sticks as teaching aids will help a lot to really examine the movement in depth. Awesome advice! grin

You guys rock, much love to you both! grouphug


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Oh wow, after quite a practice session this afternoon I FINALLY PULLED IT OFF!!!! I got it down just starting it, the forward to backward 180 degree variation, and transitioning from reverse butterfly and reverse spinning. Subtlety will take a little time, but the biggest hurdle of starting it and holding it for well over a minute was accomplished:) *raises the roof and does the cabbage patch*

Thanks so much again!


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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POIlicious
stranger
Location: Germany
Member Since: 21st Jun 2010
Total posts: 7
Posted:Soo..just started learning poi spinning a few days ago and am now stuck on the reverse 3-beat-weave. Don't ask me why I start with things like that, but once I try something and it doesn't work I can't seem to leave it alone. Forward weave works nicely,crosses work both ways, although the reverse cross took a lot of painful trial and error. I read a lot of your tips and suggestions and tried them today, but it didn't help so far...
I will try again tomorrow and let you know my progress smile


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POIlicious
stranger
Location: Germany
Member Since: 21st Jun 2010
Total posts: 7
Posted:Have now upgraded to a reverse 2-beat weave onesided...the other side just doesn't stay split time and changes into a simle cross at the first moment...

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anelaen
anelaen

in the sky
Location: boulder, co
Member Since: 13th Aug 2009
Total posts: 30
Posted:Originally Posted By: T-S-AMost of my advice came from Nick, Durbs and a few others youtube channels. You will be surprised how quickly you can pick things up once they have been explained well. Admitedly I was unemployed and spent half my days on the beach in the summer with a few beers, some smoke, music and poi.


sounds like the life, right there. knowing few other spinners, i also learned from youtube. to this great list of tricks/advice, id like to add split time (the jury is out on this) same direction wallplane flowers. surprisingly easy, works well with spiral wraps and all kinds of stalls. basically just crossing your arms over one way, moving them in a diamond shape as you uncross and recross them, (making sure the heads of your poi pass in front/behind each other in a sort of thread the needle motion if you really want to practice).
extensions are pretty basic, but difficult at first to do consistently in a single plane. both same direction and opposites, incorporates well with flowers.
pimping myself here:


oh, lastly, CAPS. as mentioned earlier, meenik/nick has some great tutorials on youtube for this, I never remember to use them as much as I should.


"you have to imagine the impossible is merely preposterous"

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POIlicious
stranger
Location: Germany
Member Since: 21st Jun 2010
Total posts: 7
Posted:Yeehaw! I can do it now! I found this video:


It helped me because I now simply "fall" from the forward weave into the backwards weave and it feels entirely natural!
*jump-dance-yipee*


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Heed
May the fires of this world always burn bright!

Member Since: 1st Jul 2010
Total posts: 38
Posted:Idubi, this is how I mastered the backwards weave, I started spinning a weave, then I tried to turn around 180 degrees. I did that until I stopped obliterating my family jewels with socks filled with tennis balls and started spinning a backwards weave.

I'm not saying that this is the best way to accomplish learning this move but it worked for me and now I can start up a backwards weave without even thinking about it.

Just keep working at it.

And if you've mastered this spin before I posted then congrats! I honestly didn't want to read 5 pages. frown


The more enlightened man thinks he is the more foolish he proves himself to be.

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AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: Heed...
Just keep working at it.

And if you've mastered this spin before I posted then congrats! I honestly didn't want to read 5 pages. frown

Seeing as how idubi made his original post in 2002, I bet he has managed a reverse weave by now. smirk

I know, the boards can be confusing when an old thread get's resurrected. I always try to remember to look at the date the post was made. wink


+Alien Jon

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Heed
May the fires of this world always burn bright!

Member Since: 1st Jul 2010
Total posts: 38
Posted:Lol yeah I didn't even look at it... well... such is life and I guess the joke is on me hehehe I hope he has and everyone else who has been trying to master this move.

The more enlightened man thinks he is the more foolish he proves himself to be.

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Metalsavvy
Metalsavvy

Your official poi jeweler
Location: Tiny Town, Ohio, USA
Member Since: 9th Jun 2009
Total posts: 5
Posted:Hey all,

I'm wondering if someone can help me with a specific problemish. Learning BTB weaves, started with 5 beat reverse. I know that might seem odd, but I found it much easier to break down by 'chasing' a poi from left to right right to left to learn my positioning for clearance. I also had an easier time learning 5b front before 3b...so figured...anyways. I'll be going along fine, but, then, as I swing my left arm poi back to my left side and my right arm is wrapping out from around the left I end up in my shoulder. Then my calf. I can almost always (yes almost always) put in 5 or so reps before this tanglnation invades. Anyone for a position or a something I can hold or do to try to work out this kink?

muchly appreciated

M


Honey, are you packing?

Hmm..? Yes Dear, I'm just putting away this liquor.

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Metalsavvy
Metalsavvy

Your official poi jeweler
Location: Tiny Town, Ohio, USA
Member Since: 9th Jun 2009
Total posts: 5
Posted:Nevermind, timing issue.

Some things that helped me, may help anyone else. Taking back to some basic leadups to unkink. this was the formula

1. 10 crossers btb each arm
2. 10 btb butterfly
3. 10 btb butterfly position split time
4. around into a waist wrap each arm

went from there back into the weave. seemed to remind my arms and waist.

happy poi


Honey, are you packing?

Hmm..? Yes Dear, I'm just putting away this liquor.

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Should probably learn the 5bt btb weaves at some point. tongue2

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Metalsavvy
Metalsavvy

Your official poi jeweler
Location: Tiny Town, Ohio, USA
Member Since: 9th Jun 2009
Total posts: 5
Posted:well as of now I'm petitioning to rename forwards btb weave to the squirrel weaves as all my poi are finding is nuts...

genuflect before the poi
M


Honey, are you packing?

Hmm..? Yes Dear, I'm just putting away this liquor.

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SpinnerofDetroit
SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Member Since: 25th Oct 2009
Total posts: 2280
Posted:I would so totally use that name.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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