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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Just in case it slipped your attention wink

however: 10 things you need (but don't want) to know about the BP oil spill


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: WoodlandAppleEpitome,

reading your posts you are right and yet so absolutely wrong at the same time.

That was just satire hon, you read into it in a way I never intended. It was sprinkled with little bits and pieces of the darker side of "good doing" meant to be read like a stage piece displaying the paradoxical nature of interpretation of good and evil.

I never meant it to be read as the only way, but the way that many people do think and is commonly spoken of. I was just displaying the opposite of what FT stated because people do good things very often for selfish motives, of course I believe there are good people who do things out of the kindness of their hearts...

however when some know publicity or credentials are at stake or simply bragging rights/"keeping up with the Jones'" I'm not naive and don't immediately judge in favor or pureness/selflessness.

None the less, don't people who simply like to give have a natural payoff by enjoying that? They surely aren't all masochistic even though that would be a payoff to masochists right? I know I'm not a pessimist, but I am a realist who is pretty sure all ends of the spectrum benefit some how. I do good because I believe in karma and don't wish to over complicate my life with the repercussions of bad, but I do admit that I benefit from that mentality in many ways not making it absolutely "good" in the purest sense of the word and am comfortable with that.

How is that wrong and anything more than being honest (technically a "good" trait) about an observation of self-awareness along with observations of what people say and their unspoken actions?

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1277778296)
EDIT_REASON: typo


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:Just out of curiosity, how far down the foodchain does this "you work in Extractive Industries, you are EVIL" thing go?

The directors and senior executives are evil, OK, what about the owners of the companies, do the shareholders count (1/4 of all Australians). The people directly driving haul trucks, draglines, longwall drillers, OK, they've sold out and are happily destroying the environment for $120,000 a year, what about the employees of CAT, Detroit, Terex, Bucyrus, Euclid, Hitachi and other heavy machinery employees, what about the people in Bridgestone making the tyres?

The cleaners of MAC camps and ESS, they're solely there to service mining, and the cooks on site, the people supplying food too?

Where's the line drawn?

Personally I find it vaguely insulting. I'm in mining because I enjoy the work; I get paid the same whether I'm doing the footings for hospitals, ferry terminals or coal handling and preparation plants so really haven't "sold out" for the money. I could rant on about it, or I can do this instead; shrug my shoulders and let the person who lives in a cave, dressed in skins and hunting their own foot with a flint spear throw the first stone (or spear). ONLY if you do not consume any of the products which we produce can you condemn us for providing the raw materials in the first place.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:yes, but why is firetom hunting his own foot? Is he like a puppy?

I must be evil too because I have driven 2000kms this week.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:LOL

Takes the power out of my "takes the high ground" speach doesn't it.

Damn inability to proof read.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: EeraJust out of curiosity, how far down the foodchain does this "you work in Extractive Industries, you are EVIL" thing go?

If it's anything like his view on the military......

Da-doh-dee-doh-dee-doh *whistles*

wink

Sorry, just want to see if my lightheartedness/goofy self can at all be understood when I don't talk story in person with body language and tone of voice to help with context. grin


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:@ WA: I think I got your point. But it's far too pessimistic for me. Man to be "evil by nature" and "in need of serious therapy" imho is a myth. There are certain mechanisms we all share - for sure - and a lot has to do with ego.

It's not as much trying to change anyone... it's more about changing my own approach and not compromising.

As previously stated: if one admits to be a f***up and stand to it, s/he earns a lot more of my respect (whatever that's worth to anyone) than pretending and singing lalala or playing devils advocate for the sake of it and change your stance for sociable reasons.

I'm not sure though whether America is home to "a more compassionate or enlightened environment and culture" and - to me - the Stanford and 3rd wave experiments are part of its proof. For one we should not forget that most American people have been/ are siblings of Europe... and that torture of prisoners or exploitation of power is to be observed throughout the cultures.

Many "bad" deeds have been committed with best intent - and vice versa, I completely agree with you on that one.

@ Eera: please note that this is my personal approach only and that I can accept anyone to hold a different p o view. I'm not demanding anybody to subscribe to my philosophy. I'm not trying to change anyone... I'm merely manifesting my thoughts and observations.

Yes - it goes down right to the shareholders (especially).

Yes - it goes down to the tipper truckies.

Yes - it goes down right to the consumers.

It's not that anyone of them is deemed "evil" - it's more along the lines of "staying ignorant because it is more comfortable".

If you work for a system and company and keep ignorant to its effects on nature, you're part of the problem. The more you directly profit from it, the stronger your morale needs to be.

If - to keep the analogy - a guard in a concentration camp tortures and kills people.. could he resort to the inhumane system he works for? Do you really believe that a guard would have got shot for not torturing people?

"What is the profit of man, who conquers the whole world and suffers the loss of his own soul?"

You enjoy the work - fine with me. You stand to it - fine with me. You take insult in my ethics... why? Why are you trying to invalidate my approach by pointing out that I am NOT living in a cage. I'm not throwing stones at you. hug

Originally Posted By: EeraONLY if you do not consume any of the products which we produce can you condemn us for providing the raw materials in the first place.

How so? (Apart from the fact that no condemnation takes place) The provision of raw materials can - and should - be made safe and as clean as possible.

If a member of the military goes to a foreign country on a mission (as much or little as I may approve of it) - he might claim be doing it IN MY NAME - I can demand him not to torture people, respect civilian lives. If he's not a soldier but a murderer, I can demand him to be removed and face trial as a murderer, without taking any "high morale ground".

Can I not?

You can demand - and you should - nature to be respected, (wo)man to be respected. I can find nothing wrong with it.

Even IF you'd slap your children silly at home, you could still insist on abandoning physical torture at schools. It wouldn't make YOU very consistent but it would still serve a higher purpose.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Ugh! Look at all this fun stuff I missed with all the party nonsense!

Originally Posted By: Dentrassi
yep no disagreement there. Ive never encountered a policy in my firm that goes against my ethics. Its not as if we are like the eco-villians in captain planet you know. but then again, australia has some of the stricted industrial environmental standard (and repercussion for infringments) in the world. If i was working for a nigerian based oil firm on the other hand...

Yet Australia is drunk on coal...hmmm

I'm not sure I can pass my guilt onto someone that works in the Nigerian oil industry because I may possibly be putting some of that oil into my truck.

Originally Posted By: FireTomI am sick and tired of companies (or venues) who are "willing to sponsor (environmental) projects" (and use them as a marketing byproduct) to clean their slates. Which is why I rather declined offers of people for (ad)sponsors to the InJuCo.

IF ANYTHING - reduce the impact you already have. No need to fix anything, if you don't break it in the first place.

A-censored-men! Aren't we all?

Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceOriginally Posted By: FireTom@ EoN: it's quite ... not my approach falling for marketing arguments. BUT in case that we will have to continue accepting highly pollutive industries in order to maintain our lifestyles... I choose... guess... another lifestyle. Because IF continuation of this lifestyle means that we loose the very foundation on which we live on, then it's quite pointless to continue cutting the tree we're sitting on. Wouldn't you think?

I don't buy into marketing ploys, but it's beneficial to look at the reality of the big picture. A few hundred thousand consumers boycotting or changing their ways can't make a dent when there are millions and millions of people who still provide companies with plenty of business knowingly or otherwise. If you have the ability to use a computer with internet access think about the long chain of events where if you did boycott intentionally you probably are still funding a huge mega corporations with ties to others. It's not just about fuel, but about manufacturing, utilities, transportation, maintenance and up keep where so many support business they don't even know about.

I can't really believe your lifestyle and levels of consumption are much different than my own if you have electricity, running water, mass manufactured goods or handmade goods made with mass manufactured equipment, if you buy groceries, if you travel...

The only people I would even listen to that argument from I have a low chance of ever meeting because they live in a tribal culture that hasn't been tainted by invasions, outreach efforts, or government barter programs. No matter how much we try, intentionally or not, we are at a state of human development where everyone plays a part in huge things without their knowledge. If the people had the power to over take the minority which are the wealthy business people and such don't you think we'd have incentive to utilize the power for our own benefit to put them in their place and even the playing field? Like without an accident or some horrid event to motivate us to take control of ourselves and who is truly controlling us?

If your answer is "Yes" why hasn't it worked and if your answer is "No" think about why...

As admirable as the intention of making change is, the reality of such change actually coming about and the realistic numbers and amount of deregulation required to make it at all probable I know is not going to happen in modern culture.

I hate capitalism, globalization, and regulation because it has stripped away the importance to the individual and has also made more hopeless struggles and catch 22s of the human condition that are all unnecessary and based on an "individual's" bright idea to come together and make a "productive society". Too bad so many way back when were easily conned, and now in modern times it's taught in such gentle polite terms very few realize they're doing wrong.

Funny huh?

Quote:This is not armchair politics - this is about demanding that industries work clean (which they can, if they want/ have to)... "higher prices"... ? Maybe as much as "lower profit margins"?

If I had to count the fear factor downfalls of this approach I wouldn't come up with what half of those who put regulations into place would come up with. Regardless accidents will always happen and will never be appropriately planned for when entering into uncharted territory.

BTW I didn't make the armchair politics statement, just for the record.

Quote:We *cough* or those holding funds *cough* need to get more aware of what we spend our bucks on - and who works with this money.

This level of awareness would probably do more to piss people off and make them feel hopeless/care less and give up more so than it would produce positive change. It's all one big vicious cycle but so is life! Need oxygen to live, but it's a corrosive so therefore we die. wink

I'm not trying to argue, but really there's a balance to everything and even with the best of intentions terrible things happen... like wars... I'm not for a moment going to give any lifeform more credit or value than my own be it a human, animal, plant, planet, or molecule of air, it shouldn't be too hard to understand why even if it's just that the thing I hate wasting most is my own effort!

------------------------------------------------------

On to new updates this disaster has caused one suicide in the gulf by a fisherman scared about his future financial impact (it's sad, but I'm not going to judge and understand why he made that choice) and on top of that hurricanes from developing storm systems have become a reality which will put a halt to containment efforts along with spread the mess.

I didn't see anyone who has updated these two things being shown on the news so I thought I'd add it.

I really love you EoN! Tell it just like it really is!

Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceOriginally Posted By: FireTomWhy now - if this thesis are universally human - people volunteer to clean up. Why did people go to Haiti and tried to help there? Why do people donate money to organizations - hoping to make a positive difference

To look good, to impress others, for their reputations, to gain power, to gain admiration, to play a part in controlling others, to make others indebted to them, for opportunities based on character to be offered, to push their products and innovations, free publicity...

Do I need to continue?

I believe that individuals that volunteer are trying to make an impact for the better. I have my doubts about organisations however. Every time anything happens anywhere in the world we are bombarded with relief adverts that continue long after the worst part of the hardships have eased. I could go on but I've made my point on that subject.

Originally Posted By: WoodlandApple just butting in to point out that as a christian, good deeds DOES NOT get you into heaven. In fact, if that is your intent then that is the way to MISS OUT in going to heaven

Also butting in: Genghis Kahn, Gandhi and Hitler would all get into heaven if they repent and accept Christ, as far as Christianity goes. I believe that good acts and a high conscionable code of ethics is the foundation for heaven in this life.

Originally Posted By: EeraJust out of curiosity, how far down the foodchain does this "you work in Extractive Industries, you are EVIL" thing go?

The directors and senior executives are evil, OK, what about the owners of the companies, do the shareholders count (1/4 of all Australians). The people directly driving haul trucks, draglines, longwall drillers, OK, they've sold out and are happily destroying the environment for $120,000 a year, what about the employees of CAT, Detroit, Terex, Bucyrus, Euclid, Hitachi and other heavy machinery employees, what about the people in Bridgestone making the tyres?

The cleaners of MAC camps and ESS, they're solely there to service mining, and the cooks on site, the people supplying food too?

Where's the line drawn?

Personally I find it vaguely insulting. I'm in mining because I enjoy the work; I get paid the same whether I'm doing the footings for hospitals, ferry terminals or coal handling and preparation plants so really haven't "sold out" for the money. I could rant on about it, or I can do this instead; shrug my shoulders and let the person who lives in a cave, dressed in skins and hunting their own foot with a flint spear throw the first stone (or spear). ONLY if you do not consume any of the products which we produce can you condemn us for providing the raw materials in the first place.

I completely follow you on this, but I think the point is no matter who you are, or where you are, you have some piece of the negligence that allows the 'evil' to succeed. Change your lifestyle in anyway you can to lessen the links in the 'food chain of evil'.(need I make the clique?)

Originally Posted By: WoodlandAppleyes, but why is firetom hunting his own foot? Is he like a puppy?

I must be evil too because I have driven 2000kms this week.

Get a diesel car that will run on vegetable oil!

Originally Posted By: FireTomI'm not sure though whether America is home to "a more compassionate or enlightened environment and culture" and - to me - the Stanford and 3rd wave experiments are part of its proof. For one we should not forget that most American people have been/ are siblings of Europe... and that torture of prisoners or exploitation of power is to be observed throughout the cultures.

I'm certain North America is NOT home to a more compassionate or enlightened culture. The rise of 'evil' could very easily happen in North America, just as it could anywhere. As far as the 'most American people have been/ are siblings of Europe' thing, it is just fact and time proven, what happens in NA will have huge impact on the EU and vice versa. It is impossible to untangle the 2 and the semi-homogenised cultures make the differences minimal at best. If it can happen in one it can or will happen in the other.

I'm so tired I have missed the point I wanted to make because I was too busy playing catch up and putting my 2 cents in. But now that I feel all preachy and self righteously good I can sleep better knowing I "talked" about the oil spill just after flying halfway across the continent to be at a 5 hour conference then catch a flight back home directly afterwards smile


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Originally Posted By: Refuge Crew

Get a diesel car that will run on vegetable oil!



I would but I dont have the $$$$$


Quote:Also butting in: Genghis Kahn, Gandhi and Hitler would all get into heaven if they repent and accept Christ, as far as Christianity goes. I believe that good acts and a high conscionable code of ethics is the foundation for heaven in this life.

Then I guess EoN was talking about you then...


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:@ Firetom: I'm not saying YOUR ethics are insulting specifically, it's the (possibly) inadvertant hypocrasy as displayed by Dentrassi's hippie (which I've had too), it's Greenpeace dangling off a coal terminal trying to disrupt loading, all the while chugging around in a steel boat fuelled by hydrocarbons, it's the ignorance of the very people who consume that feel free to lecture... (not aimed at you, it's a world-wide phenomenon)

I can honestly tell you that companies I've worked for (in Australia, it's the only country I've done this line of work) make every effort to do a clean job, it's in legislation that they have to, but the companies are going above and beyond to the extent that it's costing them money to do so. It's an issue elsewhere, I ackowledge that and would not even attempt defending some of the diamond mines I've seen in Namibia where life if cheap and engineering the stope properly is expensive.

Topsoil is removed and stockpiled for eventual remediation, it's a sackable offence to drive on a topsoil stockpile. No longer can they leave gaping great gashes in the landscape; at the end of life the site has to be remediated and returned to its original condition. Tailings dams are being dug up, processed and the tailings extracted.

It's not perfect, but it is happening. There are pretty dramatic screw ups every now and again, but a lot of time and effort is put into preventing them re-occurring.

EDITED_BY: Eera (1277894113)


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Eera, is there anything done about the immediate environmental impact done from mining. I mean its great that they are saving topsoil, but that does nothing to solve the issues of salinity that topsoil removal causes in the hundreds of KM vicinity, an impact that lasts for 100's of years.

What about the habitats that are compromised, planting even 3 new trees for every one felled (not exactly a mining things as such but Im still using it as an example) does nothing to help the local animals who rely on hollows for breeding. Something a new tree wont develop for at least 30 years if at all.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:oh and firetom,

my bad for making what I wrote all seem so pessimistic, I was just giving examples of how things can go bad, I should of used some good examples, like how most good rehab centres are successful because they recognise that behaviour change cannot occur alone, there is a need to take the person away from the environment and influences.

When done in the right way, it works. people can change and do the right thing. Its just that things like attempting to only 'raise awareness' (which was my original gripe) wont do squat.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:



sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:You guys confuse me in a way especially when it comes to balance. Why are you placing animal and plant life above human life? I'm not saying to place it beneath us, but not above being equal to us.

How are humans becoming masochists and taking huge sacrifices to better a forest or an animal anything other than being unbalanced and defying our nature? What next, are we going to start condemning carnivores for being carnivorous? Like if a cat doesn't eat meat they die and whenever I see a vegan try to make their cat a vegan because it's peaceful or compassionate or civilized I call it abuse, attempted murder, and I'm ready to act.

Yes, I know that sounded really off topic so I'm going to get to the point...

Without the hard working people doing their trades and taking huge risks our societies, way of life, and vital things that keep us alive like food, medicine, utilities, etc. would vanish without their work in this industry. How can anyone place the earth's crust or any other environmental issue (that is only given value at all through our perceptions BTW) above the beings that have given it it's value?

I would just like to hear how this approach #1 makes sense, #2 isn't destructive in it's own way, and how #3 it's even feasible because I'm not on board for that much change, know I wouldn't survive without such industries, and think I have several million in my school of thought in terms of such matters.

Someone enlighten me please...


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:can't help it but somehow someone in here sounds like fit for BP's propaganda machinery. shrug

Greenpeace is doing one thing: raising awareness. I do a similar thing. If that gives you a sting, just don't listen and continue the same way as if nothing would be going on.

No need to get exited at all. Just them green Hippie pipe dreams, dreaming and talking of a "better world"... in the future... just like old people talk about a better place... in the past.

So, no worries - if that changes at some stage, let me know. In the meantime I continue doing things my way.

WE - true, the trees need a lot of time growing back and the habitat to restore fully takes as long... but it's a lot better than nothing, would you not agree?

You know it really doesn't matter what you do, unless you have doubts it being... the 'right' thing.

You'll figure it out by yourself I guess.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Firetom, I was just asking a question, not belittling the efforts taken that have been mentioned.

Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice
Without the hard working people doing their trades and taking huge risks our societies, way of life, and vital things that keep us alive like food, medicine, utilities, etc. would vanish without their work in this industry. How can anyone place the earth's crust or any other environmental issue (that is only given value at all through our perceptions BTW) above the beings that have given it it's value?


well actually, the environment has great importance other than perceptive and recreational qualities. If where viewing things from an anthropocentric world view,

removal of topsoil creates erosion problems in a 300km radius. This erosion leads to the groundwater table being closer to the surface which in turn leads to salination. SO now you have infertile land that is salty, which stops food production. salinity does not stay isolated but it creeps, effecting even greater areas.

Victoria has huge topsoil problems all because of the Gold mining activities in Bendigo in the last 2 hundred years.

In Australia salinity has a big impact on cattle farming. Cattle is one of Australia's biggest industries if it fails then there is no money for medicines or utilities.

Poor biodiversity in animal life leads to a devastating increase in destructive pest species, plants as well as animals which also impacts farms.

Strip mining, while also preventing forest fires also created erosion which can cause landslides, poor environmental strategies as well us unmaintainable water pipes led to the landslide in New South Wales which buried the town of Thredbo.

I mean I could continue on and on and on. its the self righteous attitude that humans are the ONLY important thing on this planet that has lead to most of the environmental disasters we have faced.

Not to mention as an outdoor educator my income and industry is based entirely on the environments well-being.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Wow, I'm horrible at communicating Woodland Apple!

What I mean is it putting the environment ABOVE those perceiving the essentially transient phenomena taking place around them.

I can understand the environment and human beings being treated with equal importance, I don't understand the land being above people or people above the land because it throws off a fundamental balance of hardships and general intrinsic value.

Everything you have stated I agree with 100%, but also believe that with moderation and treating the land as we should treat people makes more sense than putting a halt to all reaping of natural resources. With great risks I mean accidents can happen not only to people, but the earth equally.

Just putting everything to a halt is catastrophic to us, being glutenous and overly indulgent is bad for the land and each of those comes back to bite the perpetrator, however with the correct balance mistakes and accidents occur so an acceptance of cause and effect that lay outside the realm of probability is not only essential to pushing forward, but also to morale and the human psyche as a whole.

I hope that makes it clear, I don't think humans are top of the food chain and never have, but I also don't think a tree or water has more of a right to life. I see it all as equal and without the other essentially meaningless in the dualistic, comparative existence in which we experience.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:in an answer that is more to that point then, a camp ground I go to a lot is in danger of being closed. SO that the tree's there can be protected. the reason trees get first priority is that in the past they havnt recieved any,which means everything is out of balance to begin with. In order for this area to survive it needs no human interference for at least 10 years.

There are a lot of places in the world today that the environment need to come first so that we can begin to ammend mistakes made in the past. Even to the detriment of man. your ideal balance can only work if each aspect has equal balance to begin with, and where in the world today is that?


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:LOL @ WA! I now want your baby.

I just noticed Petroleum Pete. Robot Chicken always makes me happy.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:what your saing essentially is that many places need another chernobyl? terrible human caused accident which made the place uninhabitable for people and has now been reclaimed by nature.

hmmm maybe we should tell the americans it was natures way of saying they should all leave the souothern states wink


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: EoNSomeone enlighten me please...

umm I'm not capable of doing that... however...

Woodland Apple has put it in excellent words: the scale has been tipping in our favor long time ago and it's up to us taking decisions on a daily basis to restore the balance.

If a lifestyle is predatory and likely to push our host, endangering the continuation of our species, than it is stupid.

Thus, environmental protection is rather "smart selfishness" than anything else.

No other species on this planet has ever had as many opportunities to seriously damage the ecosystem in a way we have today. The planet is fine (I stand to it). It will continue to wobble around the sun - even after we're long gone. Most likely it will continue to have 'intelligent' life on its surface - even after we're gone.

It is more along the lines of: are we happy with what we leave behind? As long as we live in ignorance it is no problem. Only as soon as we enter empathy, compassion and awareness it becomes a topic.

We're starting out as empathic beings - all of us. There is no baby I have ever seen in my entire life that is not empathic and aware (in the limits of its own realm). Only as we grow ^up^, we learn how not to be empathic, aware and compassionate anymore.

So when you're talking about "enlightenment" - which kind are you referring to? The kind of "enlightenment" that sees everything being part of a temporary "reality" (a holographic universe happening somewhere inside your skull), that detaches from all material existence - but continues to cling on ego and personal profit, desire and is closing ones self to the community? Or do you refer to the "enlightenment" that sees everything as being part of a temporary reality, detaching from all material existence - and realizes that ego is an advisor, not a master; that empathy, compassion and awareness are intelligent tools, ensuring the peaceful continuation of our species in equilibrium with our fellow beings on this planet.

I stop here, as I repeat myself from thread to thread. Bottom line is: if one feels that everything is alright the way one does it and has no incentive to change any of it - then don't. Celebrate whatever is there to celebrate and see how far one gets.

Just out of curiosity: if something changes along these lines - whatever - then let us... let me know.

The oil spill has been a good thing - it was raising awareness. Now it's time to clean up the mess and hold those responsible in order to set an example ("trial - and error"). It needs to be made clear that this path is erroneous - and made undesirable for others to pursue.

The problem is - what most of us are ready to blur out -only because it's not in the media anymore, it doesn't mean it's not happening anymore. Oil is still gushing into the ocean...

peace


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:*baffled, partly disgusted, but mostly confused* This is going to be a long one since no one is reading what I say and words/intent I never made seem to be in replies (like I'm shocked? this always happens here and no where else on the internet) to me so if I am wrong correct me, if not this is my response:

Um it's in the media everyday, I was actually the last person to mention updates on the latest development! Haven't heard if the hurricane that touched part of the gulf and went into Mexico pretty far from the site has made an impact yet or not since it happened yesterday, but that's just the first storm of the season.

If everyone wants to read more into what I'm saying than I am, feel free to which is all I see above and quite frankly I'm ready for it to happen every time because no one ever understands my points and takes what I write at face value save a few wonderful souls. My only point is that us humans are at a point where we are dependent on natural resources for survival regardless of who screwed up the balance we cannot change the past and there is a time to simply accept reality and try to make the right decisions in the present since we cannot predict the future or change the past.

Does that mean I don't care? No

Does that mean I don't think there is a lesson to be learned? No

Do I think that even with the most stringent controls accidents can happen? Yes

Do people need to go camping to survive? No

Do people need food, shelter, and and ability to provide those things for themselves? Yes

Am I going to listen to the ramblings of people having a fit wanting to boycott a product they wouldn't even be arguing with me if they didn't use plenty of it? No

Am I happy with what was left behind for me? No

Did I ask to brought into this world? No

Am I going to make the most of it regardless? YES

If anyone wants to have a fit and go attack people over an accident where they are already facing bigger repercussions than public opinion I'm pretty sure, yet don't live like cave men that sounds like hypocrisy from people who want to have it both ways. Just an observation and I don't understand your purpose since if you're on a computer, you live in the modern world, you spin fire... How is the blood not on your hands as well (or should I say oil) because the ball stops no where, I'm not the one going around condemning people because I understand accidents happen and if people didn't do their jobs I would be unable to provide for my survival and am a part of the series of events.

Does that make it any less horrible? No, but I do understand reality and until I see people literally practice what they preach I will have my opinion of "Well you just can't have it both ways" because it's illogical.

Good job with the enlightenment jokes FT when I wasn't using that word in such a context, good thing I don't get offended considering my religion and it seems I'm much further along in those fundamental principles as far as understanding and practicality so I don't need you to explain it thanks. I meant explain (enlighten: to help me understand like using it in the common sense) how your over compensation would do any more than harm people in vain looking at the reality of it all with the fact that regardless everything will live and die, all species at some point go extinct, and regardless of what happens energy cannot be created or destroyed.

For people against the ego and self serving you don't seem to get that without the ego it would all be meaningless and considering energy cannot be created or destroyed how is one form of transference any better than the other? I'm not very good at not listening to reason, truth, and reality so what I want to be enlightened to is how do you think things could be made right and prove to me it isn't a detriment to quality of life, survival, and wouldn't throw every system we have into chaos plus can you get the majority of 6 billion people to conform to it to even make it "plausible". If not it's all efforts made in vain, if so is the pay off worth the sacrifice.

That's the homework assignment and if anyone can make a reasonably believable response covering all of the basis and have it iron clad backed up I will change my stance on the topic, but until anyone can come up with a decent solution which hasn't happened thus far in the human time line by people for more experienced than ourselves I don't think I'll find it on a bulletin board.

That's all I've got to say and if anyone else wants to not get the point or listen to what I'm really saying that is their right (regardless of how many words are being put in my mouth that I never thought or said). I'm not conforming to or praising ideals I know are in vain, futile, and nothing more than half thought through idealist views to fit in with any subculture of people.

meditate shrug


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Originally Posted By: Myncihmmm maybe we should tell the americans it was natures way of saying they should all leave the souothern states wink

Tell them to leave the least environmentally damaged states and pack into the more damaged ones?

(Runs and locks the doors to Oklahoma)

Originally Posted By: FTI'm not capable of doing that... however...

Maybe she's capable of enlightening you wink

Originally Posted By: FTWoodland Apple has put it in excellent words: the scale has been tipping in our favor long time ago and it's up to us taking decisions on a daily basis to restore the balance.

Yea I still want WA's baby.

Originally Posted By: FTIf a lifestyle is predatory and likely to push our host, endangering the continuation of our species, than it is stupid.

Thus, environmental protection is rather "smart selfishness" than anything else.

No other species on this planet has ever had as many opportunities to seriously damage the ecosystem in a way we have today. The planet is fine (I stand to it). It will continue to wobble around the sun - even after we're long gone. Most likely it will continue to have 'intelligent' life on its surface - even after we're gone.

Has anyone considered that maybe this is the way things are meant to be? The only time we as a planet, species, culture, ect. really changes business as usual, is when we are faced with annihilation!

Human beings embody the planet. We are it's conscience, the talking, thinking part of it, one inseparable from the other. We evolved on a self destructive and constructive planet.

If this planet was never pressured to the point to which it could no longer support life, we would remain here forever. We may not be capable of leaving for another planet and taking the lessons learned with us yet, but we are capable of preserving the DNA of all life so that one day it can be brought back. Right now along the gulf that is what many people are doing. preserving what they can so that when the damaged is done, we can repair it.

Originally Posted By: EoNAm I going to listen to the ramblings of people having a fit wanting to boycott a product they wouldn't even be arguing with me if they didn't use plenty of it? No

Too right!

Unrelated, but I think we are all asking the same question. How much is too much. Will we take too much before we can find another place/way to live?


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:do I care you care or not? no

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Was this emotional sentiment FT? tongue2

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomdo I care you care or not? no

Well FT if you want to spread your views to enough people to be a drop in the bucket maybe you should about what other people think...

shrug

I'm not going to stop you from wasting your effort (and can't), it's your life and your choices, the most we can do in this world is control ourselves. Life is way better when we truly understand and accept this fact, it really is.

You want to go on and on about compassion, empathy, and awareness, then say you don't care? That's an oxymoron if it's true, the response though makes me think it isn't sincere. I care a lot and regardless of how other people take onto it, my methodology, or the side of logic I choose the explore, right or wrong, I'm not going to deny such or then I compromise my own words without help from others interpretations.

Like, wow...


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mynciwhat your saing essentially is that many places need another chernobyl? terrible human caused accident which made the place uninhabitable for people and has now been reclaimed by nature.



ahhh.... perhaps like the Miyazaki anime 'Valley of the Winds'...

EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1278029909)


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Heed
May the fires of this world always burn bright!

Member Since: 1st Jul 2010
Total posts: 38
Posted:It is my belief that we humans are here on this planet to work it and tend to it. That means having wisdom guide our actions. An ethos based on the idea that we are equal to animals and plants does not equate with the use of wisdom. An ethos that says that men are so superior to the animals and plants of this world that we shouldn't care what we do with them is also not based on wisdom.

What we humans need to do is strike a balance. We should be conservationists of the natural world but we should not be afraid to use the resources of the world either.

We must condemn the irresponsible actions of BP and all companies that seek to save money by taking higher risks. However we must also enable them to utilize the resources of this world responsibly. Companies that utilize finite resources (like oil) should, and at the very least, in their own self interest of preservation strive to safely extract their products (be it oil, coal, other minerals etc...) in a way that will not waste human lives, endanger their surroundings, or waste their product.

In fact oil companies should be investing money in alternate energy methods to stretch out their 'life-span'. It would be foolish to charge ahead and tap all the natural resources and run yourself out of business.

Placing the blame for what has happened on any form of administration doesn't do us any good. Seeking criminal charges for those responsible for the spill really doesn't accomplish anything either. (Liability is another matter all together.) I feel that instead of seeking criminal actions against BP they should be forced to not only 'foot the bill' for the clean up (without the right to recover the cost by passing the buck on to the consumer) but also force them to fund research for safer rigs and alternate energy.

This will accomplish both goals of enforcing responsible use of finite resources and furthering alternative energy (which as stated before will ensure that BP and other oil companies are actually around longer and have a higher profit margin in the long run).


The more enlightened man thinks he is the more foolish he proves himself to be.

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice

Do I think that even with the most stringent controls accidents can happen? Yes

Do people need to go camping to survive? No


hey, I do.

one last question you missed.

Will I do everything in my power to limit mine and others footprint on this earth?

EoN, I do understand your point, and where you are coming from yet change does not occur through bemoaning the realities of life. and you should Never let it get in the way of a good story or internet rant.

Yet dont you want more? dont you desire a better world?

change requires vision, and a drive to exceed in the face of adversity. It also requires motion. Take a car, it cannot change direction without a bit of forward movement to begin with. I understand the hypocritical nature of most of these posts, and EoN; you are a good person and do good things, but dont you want more?

I do. I guess Im selfish this way.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:@ heed: would you think that the industry has many incentives to prop up?

all: I completely agree that accidents do happen and that it will be difficult and unjust to prosecute them unless they directly violated regulations. But there still is the term of "gross negligence" - and I'd guess this happened here.

Fact of the matter is that if they were not required to have a (working) "backup plan" installed, they should be now - before resuming operations.

It is not as if these companies wouldn't have bad records already and as if seepage isn't happening elsewhere... there is necessity of 'cleaning up', preventive measures being taken and it's long overdue.

In the meantime you could install the BP oil spill plug in for Firefox wink here

WA: Vision for a "better future" requires realizing the present as ... not perfect. Enlightened beings perceive all present as perfect, semi-enlightened beings want to make the present become the future... wink meditate wink tongue2


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:^^^
and if we are too open minded our brains will fall out.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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