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Forums > Social Discussion > USofA - why there is (still) hope, IMHO

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:f it.
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1272299902)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Oi, Tom! Bring back your PMs!


nevermind...I was a sneaky little dragon.

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1272546482)
EDIT_REASON: journalistic evils come in handy


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Rougie - I just felt quite hurt by reading a personal motion into a recent PM - when in fact I was simply reading something into this message that was not there.

My above post took me 1hr to put in writing... I just don't want to jitter behind the scenes anymore... hug

Who knows me knows how to get to me... spank

Originally Posted By: brenPerhaps from all this we can safely conclude that it is probably not a good idea to bring up discussions on hot topic issues like politics or religion, especially on internet forums. If people really are passionate about their beliefs, is it really necessary to start discussions that can so easily get out of hand in just a few posts? Some people may view it as a game, but others may take it very personally, or at least construct posts which can easily be misconstrued, especially with only text.

Everybody needs to find some common ground if situations as such to be resolved. Hey FireTom, do you like toast also? I hope so. It is warm and crispy and an excellent place to put jelly.

We had discussions about very hot topics here in the past... the irony is that THIS thread actually has been the one in which I wanted to come to good terms with the US... shrug

I love toast... I bring the cream cheese, you care for the Nutella?

Oh, Jelly? can I put creamcheese as a base? bounce2 Please?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Originally Posted By: Rouge Dragon
Because for every wanker you meet from there, there is someone else saying "I wish those people wouldn't travel and give us a bad name" (true story!)

Because for every Miss Teen USA and her poor school children without maps, there are people at the forefront of their field who are discovering amazing things.

Etcetera.

As long as there are people who conduct themselves with humanity and live with decency then there is hope.

Because the entire country aren't members of the Tea Party wink

First of all, I will raise my hand and admit I was the one who said that I wish a good damn percentage of the Americans that traveled wouldn't. I've seen them act like inconsiderate assholes and was fully embarrassed by it, enough to at one point get up and tell them off loud enough to be applauded by natives. I tend to travel alone or with people from other countries. I learn about the cultures and language before I go to minimize any accidental disrespect.
I can't stand the tea party and believe that any group who names it's participants "tea baggers" should automatically disban and hang their heads in shame forever.

Thank you Rougie. hug

Oh, and we spell the word aluminum...so we say it correctly, for how we spell it. Since I don't speak English, I speak/read/write American, it's perfectly fine. wink tongue2


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:FireTom, I don't have a whole lot of time, but I told you what you need to do to "build better friendships" (on my end) and have me accept your apologies, it would require you admitting to your transgressions and asking forgiveness for them. Pretty simple stuff. I do not see where I have crossed any line or gotten any more personal than you (prior your edits especially) and believe me anyone who has said the things you have IRL would've gotten a MUCH bigger earful.

You can't say you have a problem with the military and then say, "but not you and your husband" just other members. If you want to say you still have hope and something bad happened to you and you had to live here in America, that I would be sympathetic to at least. I'm sorry about the Hitler thing someone said, but don't think for a minute I haven't considered comparing you to a Nazi because you act like what I've learned them to be like in history to the tee! Trying to make everything look fine while enforcing your regime and oppressing anyone who opposes you, but you what it's not because you're German it's your choice to act that way. Do you know how many racial slurs I've heard in my life? Lots, but do I want to stop people from having freedom of speech? Never!

Here's the deal, I'm a very outspoken person so taking everything I say to heart is not a good idea as many would be butthurt. Understanding that everything I say is a response to an opinion and not a person is crucial like in all debates so saying I'm personally attacking you is wrong, I'm speaking out in reply to opinions that have been spoken. I don't need everyone to like me, I want to be liked for who I really am not what I'm forced to pretend to be if I am liked at all. Why? Because I'm an American! If you don't like being held accountable for your opinions guess what you need to do? I think you know the answer to that.

Why do I take offense at the actual issues you pointed out? Because I'm the one who has to deal with them every day, I'm a registered voter making me partially responsible like all of our citizens, I'm trying to make a decent life (like survive without any assistance like all people should do IMO) in a place where the difficulty has increased my entire adult life and you bitch about it and don't even have to deal with it and dare to comment on my quality of life personally? Yeah I do have a problem with that so maybe you need to look at yourself in the mirror and re-read all of my posts, then do some soul searching before replying to me again like you have done nothing wrong.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice

Have you ever been over here at all and if so what part? I think how much we vary by state and region makes us hard to peg into any concise cultural stereotype as a nation at all. LOL


You are right that we have so much variety, even from one county to another, that we can not be stereotyped. Not truly.

I hosted a HoP Aussie here last year for a month. She was amazed that we are not as fast food based (in this area) as she thought. Themed restaurants however, are another thing. We do a lot of free activities and not everyone is pissing away money or supporting our government. It's predominantly rural, very friendly (which actually made her a bit uncomfy) and laid back.
Nothing like what news and Hollywood would have them believe.

She was surprised at the stunning amount of freshwater here, and that while I live in New York State, it takes 6+ hours and going through 2 other states for me to get to NYC.

In talking to people when I was in Aus and Europe, many don't understand how large the US is, nor how diverse.

We don't have a US culture. We have very little that when you look at it you think "OH! That's totally 'American'" We aren't as much of a melting pot as a chunky stew.
From language to food and everything in between, it changes by region and while it's part of what makes the US incredible it's also part of what makes it confusing for those who haven't really traveled here (including US citizens).


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceStout, I must concur.

I'm a member of 4 political debate forums and I'm pretty use to the hot, hot heat only having mods being called in for inappropriate links.

Ah, excellent, then you'll be aware of the "attack the argument, not the arguer" meme. That's not what happened here on this thread.

I can't exactly remember what was on here but I'll speculate

The wikileaks video. Easy to dismiss and anti-war propaganda. Difficult, but it can be done
Mike Prysner. Political extremist, go after his Marxism.
Brandon Neely. Tough one, but could be painted as political grandstanding motivated by guilt.

One thing you have to, and I mean have to, accept is that the US has just come out of 8 years of the Bush administration and he's generated a lot of resentment in the world. We don't have to live in or "know" America to be critical of it's actions on the international stage and anyone taking offense at those types of criticism is only trying to stifle discussion because they don't like what's being said.


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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stout
One thing you have to, and I mean have to, accept is that the US has just come out of 8 years of the Bush administration and he's generated a lot of resentment in the world. We don't have to live in or "know" America to be critical of it's actions on the international stage and anyone taking offense at those types of criticism is only trying to stifle discussion because they don't like what's being said.




8 years where the Supreme Court made a terrible decision with a recounting and fraud that happened in Florida, Al Gore won that election fair and square, but Bush got it with the help of his brother and appeals lawyers. I know this happened, I'm disgusted at Obama's job so far as well, however I know that these are very small pieces of a very big jumbled mess that very few feel a hard blow from and it speaks only of the federal infrastructure, but only the voting majority. I don't see how that isn't taken into account, you know the story right? (that was my first election and I was VERY ANGRY!!! devil but I pointed the finger directly at who deserved it, not the nation)

Anyway, I don't hold feelings about any nation even the ones that don't like us (North Korea, Iran, much of the Middle Eastern places) because they want to live how they want to live, I can respect that and I say leave them be. The "war on terror" concept is ridiculous because you cannot wage war on a concept, the people who did 9/11 were killed when they did it so invading a country over a rogue group is ridiculous to me let alone the fact our attackers died too.

The only place where I disagree is on the opinions/personal thing, I believe if you state an opinion you are to be held accountable for stating it and there is no reason to have an issue with a response to you as a person who stated the opinion. Like being read miranda rights "you have the right to remain silent, what you say can and will be used against you in a court of law" one understands when they open their mouth they will be held accountable for what comes out of it. I'm willing to be held accountable for what I say, plus I'm more than happy to do it. Does that make any sense?

I have only criticized what has been thrown out on the table, is that wrong? I've faced much worse than this FTF when I was in elementary school where literally name calling is going on so I don't understand why people get so upset when being held accountable for what they say in a format where restraint and decency are in action. I'm sorry I don't understand how people can think they have a right to criticize something, yet not be criticized themselves.

You see how it's paradoxical to me?

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1272562031)
EDIT_REASON: confuzzled


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: Pele
She was surprised at the stunning amount of freshwater here, and that while I live in New York State, it takes 6+ hours and going through 2 other states for me to get to NYC.

In talking to people when I was in Aus and Europe, many don't understand how large the US is, nor how diverse.

We don't have a US culture. We have very little that when you look at it you think "OH! That's totally 'American'" We aren't as much of a melting pot as a chunky stew.
From language to food and everything in between, it changes by region and while it's part of what makes the US incredible it's also part of what makes it confusing for those who haven't really traveled here (including US citizens).


I've been fortunate to live everywhere from MD, No. VA, to Hawaii (Oahu) and have traveled for a few years when I was a flight attendant. Sometimes I cross state lines and I might as well have walked into another country, which is one of the things I absolutely love! Now I'm in DE and hoping my next duty station will be in like CO, TX, or CA because I'd love to try out a new climate and culture within the US. It can be confusing because my life in Delaware where I primarily go to Annapolis/Baltimore, MD, Washington D.C., or Philadelphia, PA to have fun would be different than NY State (Syracuse is beautiful and Albany was fun, I would do many layovers all over the state which were anything but the NYC image way back) which is very different from San Fransisco and the list goes on...

I have run into many domestically who are baffled when traveling to another state, but when many of our states are larger than European countries it must be hard to keep track of 50! I love it, but that is quite interesting to hear that story because most foreign people I meet (from Asia, South America, and the rest of North America) don't have the responses I've been seeing here with Europeans and Aussies.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yes, that's true, but the point is he made some very unpopular decisions as far as the rest of the world is concerned and IMO it's not unreasonable for the rest of the world to voice those criticisms. It's when individual Americans start taking those criticisms personally, that problems like the ones that developed in this thread happen.

I've never understood this anti-corporate schtick that gets leveled primarily at American corporations. Seems to me that the best tactic to bring down the corporate machine is to simply not buy their goods. Sure, your life may suck doing without things like airplanes and computers but such is the price of actually living an ideological stance.


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: PeleWe don't have a US culture. We have very little that when you look at it you think "OH! That's totally 'American'

it's the same with Canada. We're famous for what/ Being polite? Back bacon( WTF?), saying "Eh"?, Maple syrup? The seal hunt? The tar sands?.

With the exception of the dirty oil, all that Canadiana happens so far away from where I live I could probably be in Los Angeles before I could get up close and personal with any of the above. ( the Eh thing is an eastern Canada thing, I'd never even heard of the concept until Bob and Doug McKenzie released that record in 1982.

Aw crap, now I have "take off' stuck in my head.

Coo roo coo coo coo coo coo coo


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Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Loves this guy!


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Yeah me too! I hope Stout doesn't think I'm too difficult as primarily I'm just confused and looking for clarification on philosophical matters.

I love our neighbors up north, I also think Degrassi is a wonderful gift to the American youth.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: Pele
In talking to people when I was in Aus and Europe, many don't understand how large the US is, nor how diverse.


Yes, which is why I don't like the US because a trip there will mean picking favourites among my friends! tongue2

I always knew the US was huge, but it wasn't until I actually sat down with a map to find out where everyone was that I went "I can't visit soandso cos then whatshername will miss out! Oh, and then whatsisface who came to visit me so I should return the favour is too far away...and then where do I fit in my sight-seeing??? well censored that!!!!"

And then Pele told me of the awesome festival near her place...so she BEATS YOU ALL!!!!

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1272589560)
EDIT_REASON: Navajo....


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice[quote=Pele]

I have run into many domestically who are baffled when traveling to another state, but when many of our states are larger than European countries it must be hard to keep track of 50! I love it, but that is quite interesting to hear that story because most foreign people I meet (from Asia, South America, and the rest of North America) don't have the responses I've been seeing here with Europeans and Aussies.

I have too. I've been to/spent much time in/lived in 43 of the states (soon to be more). I've also been to Australia, NZ, Europe, Mexico and across Canada.

Everyone has broad sweeping notions of everyone else. No one is immune thanks to media. From the North to the South and East to West here in the US to international visitors. It's one of the things I love most about traveling~ the learning and sharing. Yet we can't blame people for having these media fed notions. They are hammered in. We can blame them for believing it and not doing research into all sides of it. For not keeping an open mind to other views of the situations, of which there are always many.

This is actually my problem with this thread. There seems to be a lot of talk and very little listening, so to speak, as defensive guards have gone up and people are vying for the final word.

However, the Aussies in this thread have not been bad at all. Rougie is well traveled, well versed and honestly didn't deserve the lashing you gave her because of these types of generalizations. And no, your apology didn't read like one to my American eyes. You want people to be taken as individuals and not looked at by stereotypes or lumped together, and yet you are doing *just that* here.

And yes, Central New York and Western New York are lovely. It's where I'm from. wink

Stout, yes, here in East Canada (I live on the border) they say "Eh" but when I was in Vancouver people said "Hey" in the same punctuative manner...and my friends didn't even notice it until I pointed it out. I laughed so hard at that! And you forgot Mounties and drinking nothing but beer wink
Canada does have friendly, wonderful people. It has AMAZING wilderness, extremely diverse cities (I profess a love of NewFoundland and Vancouver above all...so far wink ), and yet it has the chunky stew effect like the US. More people should indulge in a visit there, for so many reasons. Though I feel that way about travel in general.
Do you think that the Olympics perhaps changed the perceptions or made them worse?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Pele, ma'am, I meant in general not this thread. LOL I think Asia (South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, and China mainly),North and South America are vastly different in their views of the US compared to Europe and the other European Colonies abroad as well based on experience from real life encounters along with various "interwebz" sources.

Honestly I laugh after almost every sentence I speak IRL and was only trying to clear up with Rouge why I made that assumption to begin with because she asked, sorry if I'm not too good at making sense in the typing realm. I honestly was and am sorry about that, I can with certainty tell you if I were speaking everything I type it would sound VERY different.

Do y'all want me clicking the keys as fast and proficient as I can talk? I think I'd need a trainer! laugh3

Thus far my travels have taken me across the US, to Mexico, Canada, and Puerto Rico along with 4 of the Hawaiian Islands (but I've only lived on Oahu for a few years way back, my mom lives on Maui and I've been to The Big Island and Kauai yay for hopping!). I've come across many good, friendly people and a few pieces of work here and there, but the biggest factor I've seen in the ratio is how much of a commercial sector are you in and how is the daily grind for the locals in that part of a town or city.

I think this holds true to America as well, I'm an equal distance literally to Baltimore, D.C., or Philly and I generally go to Baltimore because the people are the most chill and down to earth out of my 3 choices. I think it has something to with it being the smallest of the three, along with the most freedom and best cost of living as well. Taking that into account, I wouldn't trade any difficulty in the daily grind that would cost me my freedom granted to me constitutionally (that I'm active in trying to extend to the founding fathers intentions, not what I've dealt with my whole life) to think of having anything more restrictive in terms of liberty is quite honestly frightening to me.

Considering the Liberals and Conservatives (current definitions in the USA, not dictionary ones) are two ends of the same evil in my eyes and both severely flawed in their own ways I understand anyone from anywhere not liking them too much, but to say that it isn't a gameface or a method to keep them in power just to have a paycheck coming in is a fact that I find pretty hard to not even think about. Not sure how you or anyone else may feel about that or if they think about it, but that is why I posted that music video because I remember the days when I was a sellout just to keep a job or have some kind of lucrative benefit. Those days are gone and I faced many a hardship in that transition, but I'm pretty sure it's a part of life that exists universally if people really look good and hard at everything around them.

*is now listening*


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: EoNsorry if I'm not too good at making sense in the typing realm.

I subscribe to that (myself) tongue2

Originally Posted By: EoNHave you ever been over here at all and if so what part? I think how much we vary by state and region makes us hard to peg into any concise cultural stereotype as a nation at all. LOL

I married in Cayucos/ CA, spent some weeks honeymoon traveling in Utah, Nevada and California. I been in L.A. during the Rodney King riots and lived there for a few months during a later period, making jewelry on the boardwalk in Venice/ CA. Traveled from L.A. via Quartzsite to Tucson for the gemshows, spent time in North Carolina and lived a few weeks in Manhattan. List of cities visited: Boston, Detroit, New York (city and upstate), Miami, Tucson, Phoenix, Alta, Park City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego... None of that makes me an expert on the US. I said that many times. I did not - repeat for slow readers - I did not claim to be an expert on the US (culture or citizens)...

Further I did NOT aim to insult any American for being an American. If you're taking offense then this is YOUR choice - not my intent... See you said you did consider me a Nazi (and gracefully circumnavigate around it pc by making all this comparisons). No offense taken here because nothing could be further from the truth.

Of all the issues I ever had here on this board, 95% have been with Americans. And of that 90% has been because of me criticizing politics or regulations in that country... MG there is something about criticism that you seem not to understand or being able to digest. shrug

Following up on what Stout noted: If you disagree with my arguments, attack the argument. If you disagree with how I verbalize it, tell me in the same way you like me to respond to you at another stage.

I remember you starting to attack Rouge personally in another thread and I tried to step in to moderate it. I did that politely, not saying anything in polemic terms. I demand no respect from you for anything - but the basic respect every (human) being deserves from another... I've noted that people tend to be much more friendly IRL than they are online... I'm no exception... IRL I would have just walked away... trust me: IRL it would not remotely have gotten this far grin

How come that you (as a registered voter and wed to a military personnel) take responsibility for all your government frecks up? Do you take responsibility for this massacre of civilians in Baghdad (wikileak), the superiors that try to hush it up? You take responsibility for this GI getting filmed mocking Iraqi civilians/ let children run behind the truck? Where do you draw the line between what other people commit and your responsibility starts? You take responsibility for having the death penalty? For every dude going on a killing spree or school shooting? IF so (which I doubt at this point) - HOW?

For me it's a very strange concept trying to make up for every human being on the planet. But maybe you simply enjoy bashing others for diverging political views (online). Not sadistic, republicanistic, narcisstic or any of that - simply because you're who you are and you spend the time you like.

Most of us had at some stage issues with another.. but this is the main positive aspect of this (diverse) community: that we're able to set it aside and (worst case) act after "the porcupine principle for cold weather" (not too close to each other - but close enough)...

I'm not begging forgiveness from anyone, young lady... devil you give it or you don't. angel


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:^^^

Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceI'm sorry about the Hitler thing someone said, but don't think for a minute I haven't considered comparing you to a Nazi because you act like what I've learned them to be like in history to the tee! Trying to make everything look fine while enforcing your regime and oppressing anyone who opposes you, but you what it's not because you're German it's your choice to act that way. Do you know how many racial slurs I've heard in my life? Lots, but do I want to stop people from having freedom of speech? Never!

I never called you a Nazi even though it is a common slang word in America for anyone who is just stuck on being an enforcer and pushes hard for people to submit to them. It has nothing to do with being German and it's these misunderstandings and assumptions people make about when I try to express things through text because I don't have my body language, facial expressions, and lack of censorship to accurately portray myself on this forum. The reason I don't use words like Nazi on here is because of the international sensitivity possible when I mean no such context (like when I jokingly call feminist friends "femi-nazis" during one of their tirades).

This is why I'm stepping out now, if you want to drag another thread into this thread and Pele wants to tell me I have given a tongue lashing (both accusations are unfair and have greatly gotten under my skin now that I've had time to sleep on it and I haven't even come close in the history of this forum of giving ANYONE a piece of my mind) you can keep thinking whatever you want about me, but as a person who has been oppressed, abused, and victimized severely (physically and mentally) in the past I'm not tolerating such manipulation or scapegoating when I'm not even coming close to doing these things I'm being accused of. I've worked long and hard to want to hang in there and keep moving forward, people like you are never dragging me down again. Final.

It's clear how things work around here and it's anything but fair and balanced. FireTom, you aren't bending so I'm not bending, I'm not asking you to beg but I will not condone your ethics on this matter. Pele, you wanted to read into something and give someone praise just to try and make me feel bad after tossing false accusations, well we all have our opinions and you should remember what happens when a teacher does that with the teacher's pet it only breeds resentment that is misplaced. It speaks volumes that nothing I can say would even make a difference here so seriously I'm done with this thread, I hope none of you have to deal with hard things like literally fighting for your own personal survival and freedom because I do not know what you would do considering how you've handled/reacted to internet drama.

It is what it is, re-read every one of my posts and I dare you to try to read it in a different personality than you previously read, because this is the first time you've gotten the persona you imagined typing this. Peace out!


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:See EoN, I offered you a sincere apology...

Originally Posted By: EoNit would require you admitting to your transgressions and asking forgiveness for them

umm I tried to give an opportunity for you and others to post positivity on the US and made a start myself with showing how people stand up for themselves and their country, trying to "right the wrong".

Originally Posted By: EoNbut don't think for a minute I haven't considered comparing you to a Nazi because you act like what I've learned them to be like in history to the tee!

umm Thanks for showing me one more time that my wording and my topics can breed resentment and dearly hurt people. I'm trying to find skillful means - so far I obviously failed. hug

I got an opinion, I post it
a) someone agrees... end of this line
b) someone opposes it. I say "fine" and back my opinion with 'facts' or other arguments. I (often) post links to these 'facts'...
aa) someone agrees... end of this line
bb) someone still disagrees and...
aaa) posts (links to) 'facts' that back up her/ his opposing argument
bbb) says "I can't base it on facts, but to me it doesn't feel like that"... all fine with me
ccc) tells me that all I'm saying is moronic bs without any backing... say "huh?"

If you got the impression that Pele or any other mod would favor ME over you or any other member of this board then I really have to disappoint you. This is not about sympathy bonus at all.

I don't want to beat a dead horse any further [/]

This thread is completely derailed - it feels to me

What really continues to give ME hope in America is that I repeatedly watch videos originating there, which have such a beautiful message... this and the ability to boil entire books down (in)to a single paragraph mesmerizes me again and again...





the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Heed
May the fires of this world always burn bright!

Member Since: 1st Jul 2010
Total posts: 38
Posted:So, I am sorry if it offends anyone that I am bringing up an old topic that has obviously caused multiple people a lot of frustration and personal pain but as I am an American I find the topic of why there is still hope for America interesting to say the least.

Do I really feel like America will last through the ages? No. Not at all. We will be our own downfall. Rome expanded too far to be able to control its own populace. America will burn out in its own time as well. It is inevitable. Just as the Empire of England eventually fractured to where its own influence barely travels beyond its own shores America will fracture and splinter just like all regimes that grow too big for their britches (to use a phrase so many mothers have used before).

However why will America last for many years to come? For starters we are a melting pot and always have been. It is our diversity that makes us into survivors. While other nations have started seeing an influx of immigration, none of what they have can ever compare to what the US has had since its "discovery" and independence.

Americans are builders. While early in American history the building was done not only by slaves but also people abused and treated barely better than slaves the greatest parts of our country and our cities were not built by slaves but by brave and industrious men and women. While the world may once again (as they did before WWII) see us as fat playboys who have no work ethic of our own; I believe that (though there is a lot of truth in that) the populace of the US will wake up when the time is right and we will show the world that we still posses the spirit that built this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

Part of our weakness and part of our strength is that Americans are fighters. Regardless of what you may think of the current wars and conflicts waging around the world there is no way of denying that Americans are fighters. Our military is the best equipped and best trained in the world. Sure the SAS and other elite groups are potent and powerful organizations but they are not the back bone of their respective country's military. The US military can be beat. I hate to think of the army that could do it but no military is unstoppable. But that isn't all... Americans would fight to the death to protect their country. That is why I believe that no country could every truly invade and conquer America. The civilian population is its own army. I also feel that this is a weakness in its own right. We may one day regret our 5th amendment rights.

Though America may be losing its respect for life, particularly life within the womb, and those at the end of their lives... make no mistake about it when people stop caring about the well being and the rights of the unborn, the well being and the rights of the old and infirm will be the next to go out the window; abortion and euthanasia are two sides of the same coin... we are still champions (at least in our own land) of the rights of those who cannot afford to or manage to defend themselves and their own rights. While corporations may trounce the rights of those overseas and honestly try to do the same in the US the people do not take these actions lying down. Many both secular and religious organizations speak out against the actions of the few and demand social justice both here and abroad.

Americans are leaders in social reform. While yes the slave trade in America was once a popular thing it was America whose desegregation through peaceful means paved the way for Apartheid in South Africa. Maybe not physically but it was at the very least an inspiration. Women the world over have become better treated and are getting closer to becoming equals with men because of the changes that have come out of America. Yes there are still many glass ceilings but there are far fewer than would or could be. Child labor laws did not exist before American law makers created them. Or if they did were hardly enforced. Yes there are American companies that do things that are corrupt and unethical if not downright abominable in other countries and they deserve to be punished for their actions, I will not deny that. However it is the social reform stemming from America that even gives those children over seas a chance at getting out of the sweat shops permanently.

America is not what the media portrays it to be. It does not matter if you listen to the BBC or Fox News, they cannot capture the true essence of America nor can the even hope to capture the true essence of Americans. It is still the greatest nation by far because of what I have written and more, much more. What the media sees is only what sells. No media corporation does anything but make profit for its shareholders and owners. The stories that are reported are done so based on greed and on the bottom line of what sells. So all the world sees is the idiocy of the celebrities and the antics of famous. The crimes of corrupt and evil at heart are also what are shown to the world and that is a travesty. But when love is shown instead of hatred and violence it is overlooked. Sure there may be a 30 second spot on the local news and even something on Good Morning America but it really doesnt get the same amount of air time as the guy who goes out and murders a bunch of kids at an Amish school. America is so much more than what the media portrays it to be.

Our school systems need work, my own Father who teaches high school students talks about how hard it is and how hard it has become since the No Child Left Behind Act came to be, but they are not unmanageable. The biggest problem is not funding or a lack of well trained teachers, but a lack of parental control over the students. A teacher cannot make a child do their homework, or study for tests. Our children are not stupid, what they are, is unfocused. When America refocuses our youth and projects their energy into something positive the world will see a great change. Sadly, Thomas Jefferson was more than correct when he said The philosophy of the classroom in one generation will be the philosophy of the courtroom in the next. If the philosophy of our students is I dont care then when my grandchildren are grown then maybe that will be the philosophy of the government. That is, unless something changes.

There is still hope for America because change can still happen. We do need to return to our roots and I do not mean that politically or religiously. Though neither one of those things would be bad, at least not in my opinion, but what I mean is that we as Americans in order effect change must once again get in touch with our ancestors who built the sky scrapers and roads that span the country, over and through mountains, across deserts and rivers. We must stop looking for the easy job that pays well and take the job that is hard labor, and pays little in money but pays greatly in true satisfaction. There is still hope for America because I am not the only person who feels this way. There are more. We may not all say exactly the same thing, but we still feel the need for change. We still feel the need to return to the way things were, more so in action and attitude than in actuality.

There is still much great hope for America and for the world. I cannot wait to see the future not only of my country but of the world. America has once again become a sleeping giant and when it wakes up and realizes that its decadence is costing it dearly the change will shake the very foundations of the world.


The more enlightened man thinks he is the more foolish he proves himself to be.

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Fugee
Fugee

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Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
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Posted:No one is offended by this Heed. But you will be eaten alive for all of what you just said smile

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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Heed
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Member Since: 1st Jul 2010
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Posted:I hope they use Heinz Ketchup to flavor me smile

The more enlightened man thinks he is the more foolish he proves himself to be.

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Fugee
Fugee

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Posted:ROTFL! You must have gone far back to read Bren's post. Did you read the revocation, that was not authored by John Cleese but by some ingno that didn't know that at the end of the US civil war 10,000 words were added to the Oxford by just one American man? I love the crap some hypocrites spew.

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
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Posted:Heed - I partly agree/disagree with what you said.

My personal hope are based on individuals. People who stand and speak up for their beliefs and managed to change current state of affairs.

I really hope America will last - because the greatest thing a parent (Europe) could see is to see their child finally grow up and accomplish something great (promotion of world peace by peaceful means)

The question is whether this world is still in need of fighters, or rather people who are able to make peace.

I would personally appreciate to see America growing as much respect for those lives who already are on this planet as they seem to have for the queue. imo a mothers body is her own to govern and as my dad is currently in a care unit of a retirement home, I'd rather see him dying gracefully (as he himself would choose it) than continue his suffering. Euthanasia is not in opposition of compassion - I see it as part of it.

I can't see social reforms as Americas strength. The abolition of slavery was a brave act of humanity - kudos to the US. The revolt against GB and democracy installed was an inspiration to Europe at this time too. No question. That apartheid was kept in the US until the '70 is something that still puzzles me. The social reforms Obama is tying to install now were met with intense resistance... there still is something within the society that needs to learn.

Definitely the media can't grasp the essence of a society and promote it accurately - no worries it also fails in dragging it down. For me it's always been individuals and their communication to the world that did/not make the difference. I'd like to see more Americans travel the rest of the world without the attitude that their country is the greatest nation of all, because that actually blinds them from truly understanding what this "rest of the world" is really about.

To me these repetitive short displays of love, bravery, compassion and brilliant intellectuals is what preserves my hopes. I might not agree with everything said (and the way it is said) but there is an entire cosmos that sparkles and it's not coming from energy saving bulbs.

Originally Posted By: HeedThere is still hope for America because change can still happen. We do need to return to our roots and I do not mean that politically or religiously. Though neither one of those things would be bad, at least not in my opinion, but what I mean is that we as Americans in order effect change must once again get in touch with our ancestors who built the sky scrapers and roads that span the country, over and through mountains, across deserts and rivers. We must stop looking for the easy job that pays well and take the job that is hard labor, and pays little in money but pays greatly in true satisfaction. There is still hope for America because I am not the only person who feels this way. There are more. We may not all say exactly the same thing, but we still feel the need for change. We still feel the need to return to the way things were, more so in action and attitude than in actuality.

There is still much great hope for America and for the world. I cannot wait to see the future not only of my country but of the world. America has once again become a sleeping giant and when it wakes up and realizes that its decadence is costing it dearly the change will shake the very foundations of the world.

yes clap hug


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Posted:FireTom I agree with you to an extent. Yes Individual people with vision and leadership are needed, but they must be backed by people willing to follow. There is nothing wrong with following good leadership.

As far as the desegregation of America goes, the person may be quick to change but people are not. The majority of Europe still has (in part) a class system with Aristocracies, while their lines may not be drawn on racial boundaries, the effect can be much the same. Those with the wisdom and ability to lead are not given the chance based on some skewed idea of family line, or location of birth. So yes it is very sad that America did not see real change for racial desegregation until the 60's but the fact that the change happened is an amazing thing in its own right. Europe has some catching up to do. I can't wait for the first black King of England wink

My stance on abortion and yours differ, I'm not going to debate it with you. But it is a fact that abortion and (and I'm sorry for not making this more clear in my original post) active euthanasia (AKA Grand-ma is just too old and too expensive we'll just stop the machines that keep her fed and she'll just starve to death) are linked. As abortion becomes more and more socially acceptable, the other will too. Euthanasia can in fact be compassionate, however, that is not the kind of euthanasia that I meant, I apologize for my unclarity.

Yes American tourists can be morons. However, I wish everybody in every country had the attitude that their country is the greatest country in the world. Pride, though a dangerous thing in too great of quantity, can be electrifying and cause the change to spark the imaginations of future generations.


The more enlightened man thinks he is the more foolish he proves himself to be.

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FireTom
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Posted:but wasn't there some dispute in the US about abolishin slavery? wink

I side you that ol' Europe still has a lot of work to do, a lotta lot... I'm just not sure where you're going with "not getting a chance due to family line or location of birth"...

One black President doesn't make the all change, Sir. Were not all other American Presidents white anglo saxon protestants? You have no Hearst's, Guggenheimers, Morgan's, Kennedy's, Brady's or Rockefellers?

But let's not go too far this lane, kick back and wait for a black King of England being crowned by a black Pope, receiving congratulations by a President of the US who was born outside NA... wink

I'm considering opening a thread on euthanasia and abortion - maybe it would make two good threads - if not already in existence. Maybe you would like to go ahead?

I've worked in retirement homes and schools for the physically/ mentally/ multiple handicapped... The respect of life should be for the living, then for the dying and then for those not born yet. It's best accomplished by generating circumstances in which a life is still worth living and having a child doesn't mean poverty for the parents. It's accomplished by providing equal chances, regardless of color or social background.

Totally side you on the school issue. GOOD education should be available for everyone, free of charge.

I'd wish we'd go beyond borders and finally see that this is the greatest planet - that would be a goal worth striving for... but step by step we walk a thousand mile road smile

Thanks for joining the discussion. Your posts have been some of the most refreshing in a long time (at least for me). I don't mind patriotism - as long as it's not blind.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Heed
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Posted:The black president/queen thing was a joke. No JFK was Catholic, Thomas Jefferson was his own form of Christianity... just check out his "bible". We've had quite a few deists as well. And whatever religion Obama really is. That sounds really judgmental I know and I don't mean it to be but honestly I don't know what he holds to and what he doesn't.

Honestly a black Pope probably isn't that far off, there are a fair amount of black cardinals.

The problem with a debate on Abortion and Euthanasia is that each of us has a different base for morality. Even among those who have the same origins for their sense of morality there is debate among these two issues. So without a unified stance on morality the debate would be pointless. The stances I would take and the reasons behind them would be irreconcilable to those who did not share my basis for morality. So I am unsure if I would weigh in on those debates or not. It would depend on people's attitudes and if they are really willing to listen to what I had to say or if they will just judge my words as unworthy of attention simply because of my basis of morality.


The more enlightened man thinks he is the more foolish he proves himself to be.

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Fugee
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Posted:http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-lights-are-going-out-for-free-speech-on-the-internet.html
br>
Hope?


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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Heed
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Member Since: 1st Jul 2010
Total posts: 38
Posted:Okay if Obama messes up my gaming for four months I'm going to be very not happy!

The more enlightened man thinks he is the more foolish he proves himself to be.

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