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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Click here to see what happened to Charles' baby today...

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_Stix_
_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land
Member Since: 15th Feb 2002
Total posts: 2419
Posted:err. you wanted a female opinion?

I've never noticed any difference.. but then again.. I've never had a long term boyfriend who had been circumcised.. I've had a 'fling' with a guy that did.. no need for vasaline, no need for anything else.. he just needed a personality - and I don't that he lost that when he was cut..

potato / potota in my opinion.. we are all meant to be different with different ideals and goals.. thats what makes us all special..


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:KOB...as a woman with um...experience with both...
there truly is no difference in sensation for the woman at all, at least with straight intercourse. "Other" acts of a more oral nature, well, there is a big difference. Actually, the statment makes me laugh... maybe she figured it is ridged for her pleasure?!
Sorry


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:If you live in the desert, where you can't waste water by washing yourself dayly, then chop that little foreskin off, but if you live in an average climate and have access to water on a dayly basis, then it is probably better IMHO to not mess with the way god made us.

The paternal lineage of my family is not circumsised, and neither will my sons be.


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!

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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I just thought I would point out Im mostly bitching about it being done as a routine and doctors pushing for it to be done. I wasn't aware the US stopped doing it as routine. Im entirely pro-choice on the matter.

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Rick aka Loki
Rick aka Loki

member
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Member Since: 18th Dec 2000
Total posts: 134
Posted:DeepSoulSheep: I couldn't pull my foreskin back when I was 11 either, but when I hit puberty- bada-BING, everything resized itself. (It made that sound, too). The doctors had told my parents that would happen.

As far as the religion/health thing goes, I don't think it precludes a belief in God to hypothesize about WHY God would have told people to follow a certain practice. How the heck could God have explained bacteria to the old tribes? There is a school of thought that says that, like a parent with a child, God had to lay down a few laws that couldn't be fully explained but needed to be followed. The no-eating-pork rule is another one that falls into that category for some people, since some of the old tribes were nomadic, and pork may have carried a greater risk of causing food poisoning from open-spit cooking methods and from being left uneaten for a period of time.

Personally, when it comes down to something I've had no problems with (being uncircumsized), something people doing it are charging money for and so have an additional motivation, and something about which all statistics are so unclear and conflicting, I'd prefer to leave my body the way it was created rather than chopping bits of it off.

On the female vs. male circumcision question, I feel that they are ABSOLUTELY different. Male circumcision is a modification for traditional or health reasons. Female circumcision is an AMPUTATION arising, as far as I know, from oppressive and mysoginistic traditions. Like was said before, kudos and strength to all those women fighting to change that tradition.

Charles: Thanks for sharing something with all of us that is obviously an important moment in your family's life.


peace.


-Rick aka Loki
oh, man, a signature?... uuh... this is like coming across wet cement... uuh, shoot, I had something clever I was saving... I hope I don't run out of sp

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Jello
ambiguous
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Member Since: 29th Jan 2002
Total posts: 646
Posted:What I find interesting is that people on both sides claim that the other way is unhealthy and will site studies to prove it. Or at least in my experience that is, I've read articles supporting both.

I considered circumcision a while back, pondered it for a bit but decided against it. I am however considering preputioplasty, I don't know if its overkill in my case or not but I plan on talking to a doctor about it some time in the future.

I feel kind of odd, talking so freely about mens health. The news said we should do this more often cause men usually let things go for way to long while women deal with the slightest thing righ away.


_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

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_Stix_
_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land
Member Since: 15th Feb 2002
Total posts: 2419
Posted:erm Jello - big word there.. can I have the translation into ickle words please.. oh where's our walking medical dictionary when I need him?

As for discussing mens health.. I thik it should be done more..

A friends dad has just gotten over testicular cancer.. he was VERY lucky.. it was only becase his wife was err.. 'examining' him that they found it..
It funny really some guys do nothing but 'check out' what they got down there.. but never notice if anything has changed..
I check for breast cancer every month.. runs no my family... I'm lucky tho - not got that much to check


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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Jello
ambiguous
Location: Mpls, MN, USA
Member Since: 29th Jan 2002
Total posts: 646
Posted:Ickle translation time Its basically the surgical version of "pulling back" the foreskin. Instead of cutting off all the foreskin, like circumsion, only some of the connectors are cut, allowing for easier retraction and such. I don't quite know the real medical explanation. I also don't quite know whats required in order to have such a surgical procedure, so I don't know if I'd qualify. Hence my need to see a doctor sometime. But to be honest, given my current sexual/dating habits, I'm in no hurry. Most "actions" requiring foreskin retraction are what I consider acts for a more commited relationship. Which I'm millions of miles from, seeing as I'm not even dating anybody. Plus there are plenty of sexual acts where retraction isn't really necessary at all. Which once again, don't apply due to my incredibly single status.

Dear lord I'm being open today


_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:I know this should end up having it's own thread, but I think some people thinking they know the rationale behind God's instruction may be a little naive (sorry).

An instruction from God, if you are a believer, does not stop being an instruction just because the obvious reason for it appears have fallen aside.

To second guess why God says to do something, and then to not do it based on your own ideas of what it was meant to do, is , to a believer, a direct act of disobediance.

I coudl come up with hundreds of other reasons why God would want us to circumcise our sons. BUT, God is God, a being who is omnipresent and non-linear. He exists at all points of the universe and at all points of time in the same state.

I really don't think any human should pretend to be understand the motivations and logic used by a being like that.

Also, the comments of "teach him to wash himself" I also find a little naive.

Think about how much disease would be prevented in the western world if everyone, especially adults, washed their hands at the apropriate times like virtually every one of us was taught.

I agree, education will help, but to feel that once someone is taught somthing, that they will then do that thing exactly the right way for the rest of their life is showing a profound misunderstanding of human nature.

See above where i mention my cousin who was taught to wash himself who had to have a circumcision at 14 years of age!

Particularly around something as personal as sexual organs...

And, another spanner in the works, washing will not prevent infections for every person in the world. We are all different, and many have skin or other conditons (STD's included) that make us more prone to genital infections than others.

All in my opnion of course. BTW big thanks for everyone who is speaking out on this thread, even those who I diagree with. The more we talk the more we learn...


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Dio
Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA
Member Since: 11th Jul 2002
Total posts: 729
Posted:Funny Circumcision Moment: (did I just say that?)

My Tae Kwon Do instructor recently had a healthy baby boy and I was fortunate enough to be able to drop in on her in the hospital while she was recovering... the nurse walks in and in the absolute most casual voice I've ever heard asks "Do you want him circumcised?"

It wasn't so much the actual act of circumcision, but the matter-of-fact "you want fries with that?" sort of tone the nurse carried... that was the first thing that came to my mind... made-to-order baby...


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Funny circumcision moment number 2.

During the operation, Charles nearly faints, and has to put his feet up on a stool while the doctor just gets on with it...



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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I am a believer and the idea that we shoudln't question what god does doesn't fly with me. If god wanted us to be mindless drones he would have made us that way. I don't believe our intelligent andquestioning minds are the devil's work either.

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Astar, my apologies I didn't word my post more clearly.

My beef is with people who think they understand the reasons why God does things...And then explain away why that reason is now defunct, and so they don't have to do it any longer.

There is no way any of us could ever understand the motivations of a being as different o us as God is.

Sure, he can communicate with us on our level if he chooses, but there is now way we coudl ever hope to understand an omnipresent being. A human, as a linear entity, could never know what how or why a non-linear entity thinks. It just defys explanation to our causal view of the universe.


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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:I agree then.

Although I think it is worthwhile to try to understand it. as there is spinoff's.


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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Cool, lots more for me to say on this so I've started a new thread...

Here!

As far as circumcision goes...Lightning/Mike, could you point us towards any resources for stats or recent articles on the subject?


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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:well...this is probabley the most serious thread ive ever seen....

just one small comment on a big issue.

as a bisexual circumsised male, ive had 'experiences' with both cut and uncut men, and women who have experienced both.
ive concluded that the only difference it that the penis is not quite as sensitive, there seems to be no difference in orgasm or anything else for that matter.
you may sometimes need lubrication...so what? it doesnt change your sexual feelings - that the hormones acting - which are what counts, and i cant see thats its ever affected any relationship ive had.
it comes down to your interpretation of medical info, and religious beleifs. i wont enter that debate here.
just remember....NEVER trust statistics from the internet.

take care all,
ed.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Rick, good for you dude. I went to a specialist and he recommended circumcision so I listened to him. Maybe there was a chance it'd sort itself out, but I think that in that situation you have far greater risk than everyone else of problems, especially considering you're banking on it sorting itself out.

Believe me if I'd a choice I'd have avoided it. I think it's worthwhile telling you, exactly how painfull it was. My dad basically built this frame type thing around my bed so that I could lie under a duvet without it touching any part of my body for 3 days. The slightest touch anywhere down there was agony. And I was 11, when the nurse said do I need to shave before the operation, I hadn't a clue what she was on about. Imagine I was 18.

Don't worry Jello I know how you feel


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:Jumping on this topic late but will add my 2 cents...

I got my first son done (and will get the second done as well).

I based my decision on a mix of different reasons. They are:

I am "cut" and have never experienced any down side what so ever.

I asked all the females I know (including my boys mum) what they preferred or what feelings they had from a sexual experience point of view. The results were 1 out of over 15 saying she didn't mind either way and the rest saying definately preffering cut to uncut. This I guess is probably more cultural considering most they would have seen would be cut. Some even went as far as to say it was a MAJOR factor in their sexual experiences from a cosmetic point of view.

I have a very good friend who made the decision to get himself done at 21 years of age. There was no medical reason. He has vehemently indicated this is the best thing he has ever done for himself and told me he wouldn't forgive me if I didn't get my boys done.

Lastly, I found a woman who had been performing this operation for 30 years who did it under general anesthetic. A big factor for me was doing it without ANY pain relief at all. We waited until he was 1 and it was a pretty unstressful affair.

This was one of the hardest choices for me to make on behalf of my sons (along with what vaccines would I be willing to put in them - which is a WHOLE other can of worms ). Ultimately (unlike Charles) my reasons had nothing to do with religion and more to do with consensus, personal opinion and the experiences of friends and family. Whilst I understand people's reasons for doing it or not doing I do get shirty when people use the 'mutilation' argument. I've had people with piercings and tattoos use this same argument in a hypocritical way.

Anyway these are my experiences and opinion. Congrats to you Charles for reaching the first of many of those massive decisions that help our little people become big people. AND thanks for sharing. When I read the thread title I thought this was going to be bad news.



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Astar
member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Member Since: 8th Nov 2002
Total posts: 1591
Posted:how is it hypocritical? It's not like someone forced them to have those piercings and tattoo's.

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Dio
Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA
Member Since: 11th Jul 2002
Total posts: 729
Posted:Next on Springer: "I resent my parents for mutilating me as a baby!"



What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:Astar,

Point taken. Hypocritical is the wrong term to use. Someone who has speant hours under the needle in pain telling me off for something my sons will never remember and hopefully understand just came across that way to me. However 'choice' is the major difference there. I retract my use of the word.


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flid
flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire
Member Since: 27th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3136
Posted:

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:I'm completely against it as being unneccessary for the majority of men (although as people have pointed out there are cases in which it is a valid medical procedure).

Apart from those doing it for religious reasons the US the only country in the world where it is done on a regular basis. 80% of the world do not circumcise their sons.

http://www.cirp.org/library/general/wallerstein/
br>
quote:So called "health" circumcision originated in the nineteenth century, when most diseases were of unknown etiology. Within the miasma of myth and ignorance, a theory emerged that masturbation caused many and varied ills. It seemed logical to some physicians to perform genital surgery on both sexes to stop masturbation; the major technique applied to males was circumcision. This was especially true in the English-speaking countries because it accorded with the mid-Victorian attitude toward sex as sinful and debilitating/More links...

http://www.noharmm.org/bju.htm
br>http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/hestats/circumcisions/circumcisions.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/general/laumann/


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:Well' i think that cicumcision is a good i dea due to the fact of the possibility's of infection and it's not like he can't grow it back later in life if he want's www.cirp.org/pages/restore.html

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:hahahahaha!!!
just as i was reading this thread on circumsicion, a pop up advert appeared on my computer offering me dates with single jewish men!!
sorry, i have nothing profound to share with you...i just though i should share that moment of hilarity with you....ohh look! here come the men in the white coats....to take me away...ha ha ...


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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square
member
Location: gloucester UK
Member Since: 11th Jul 2003
Total posts: 35
Posted:im honestly not trying to start an argument here, and i certainly know nthg of judaism or any other religion that requires circumcision, only christianity being brought up that way...but...if a god wanted circumcision to be part of the religion, why would that god put the foreskin there in the first place? i cant imagine why you should put an ickle baba thru appendage removal to make a god happier.

you're a naughty potato!

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telic
I don't want a title.

Member Since: 26th Jun 2003
Total posts: 940
Posted:Funny Circumcision Moment #3: When my youngest brother had his bris*, when he was lying on the cushion in my arms and the mohel (doctor who performs the circumsion) was leaning over him, he let loose and peed right in the mohel's face.

Shows what he thought of the operation, maybe? ~.^


* For those of you who may not know, in Judaism when a baby boy is 8 days old, the bris is the ceremony at which he gets named and circumcised. Anyone can come. Around here, there are always many bagels. A homeless guy with a decent suit could live off of going to brisses for the rest of his life, easy.


E pluribus unum, baby.

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:quote: if a god wanted circumcision to be part of the religion, why would that god put the foreskin there in the first place?Well, lets assume for a second that He( She Them) does. then he would have to have made longish foreskins to make circumscision possible.

After watching my little lad for the 5 days after the operation, I have to say, he appeared completely and utterly normal the whole time. Sure he cried, but that was when he was hungry or needing changing, and when that was fixed he stopped crying.

I'm pretty much of the opinion now that that flap of skin, which IS NOT part of the supersensitive head of the penis, had absolutely no nerves in it at all for the first few months of my little lads life.

So, one possible theory (I'm not saying this IS the truth, but that it may a be a possibility) is that circumscision isn't for the child at all!

It's for the father to show how devout he is by doing this thing that hurts the father a millionfold, and doesn't bother the baby at all.

The irony of it is still sinking in as well...


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