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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:I was wondering if anyone knew when I should turn with anti-spin flowers. Do I do the last beat down when I turn or towards the direction that I am going. Like. I'm doing antispin flowers with my arms going in reverse do I turn so my first antispin flower petal on the other side is up right or down? Thanks.

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:It's really the same as turning with in-spin flowers, if you know how to do that. It just feels weirder. You want to start the turn when your hands are vertical so that when you make the side petals you're half way through the turn, and you should be completely turned around when your arms are vertical again.

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:Oh god, turning with antispin is so weird, I'm trying to get to do it with more than one turn, but it's proving impossible when I'm stuck inside and the ground outside is covered in snow.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:
to elaborate on what Sister said, do an anti-spin from a vertical petal (up or down)and when your arm reaches horizontal stop and chill out there in static spin. Then cross the poi from one side of your arm to the other and continue the anti-spin.

when you can do that arm cross in the amount of time it takes for the poi to travel between the top and bottom petals, you should be able to use that to turn around.

it is also possible to cross your body on the vertical petals (between each horizontal petal) but then you have to worry about legs and head.

hope that helps.


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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:This all helped a lot.

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:Do you happen to have any advice on getting the petals pointed straight up, down, left, and right. I figured out a way to do it while standing still doing them and it's by counting the spins. But I can't do it at all while turning and I figured learn to figure that out before I really start learning it because I have a tendency to keep switching between 5 and 3 petals trying to get 4 of them doing normal antispin flowers and I think I wouldn't have so much of a problem while turning with them if I learned to do it while I learn the move.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:I just sort of learned to get a feel for what it happens like when the poi make a petal (playing around with C-CAPs and extension-to-antispin transitions helped me a lot to get the feel for this), and I make my flowers even by really turning into all the motions. When I make the horizontal petals, I really turn pretty much all the way to the side, and for my vertical ones I just make sure that everything on my body is vertical and I'm facing straight forward. I count by my body positions instead of the poi.

I almost find it easier to move around while doing a flower than standing still. If I'm turning to the side to open up my arms, it's easier to just take a step forward instead of twisting my hips around.

And maybe you already know this, but it's advice that would have helped me with flowers earlier on: you don't need to do the flower nearly as fast as you think you do. Chances are you can slow it down a little and feel out your petals a little easier.


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:Yeah I do know that, I rarely do them fast. Especially while practicing I do it very slowly counting the spins on one of them and just going split time with the other so it comes out the same.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:I'm not sure I entirely understand your question so if this doesn't answer it, let me know.

Have you spent much time hand drawing compound circles (flowers)? That was probably my first step in the understanding i have of them now. While drawing play with how different variables affect the shape. Variables being things like the ratio of arm length to poi length, which affects how close the poi path is to the center of the overall circle. Then there is also the number of petals, pro-spin vs. anti-spin, what happens when there are two poi and they are doing different flowers, the paths traced by the poi when there is more then one plane involved.

Imagine where your shoulder is in the drawings then visualize those paths when you go to spin. You will see that anti-spin flowers are sort of regular spin flowers turned inside-out. For both there are wide petals and sharp petals. As you hallucinate more, begin to notice how the flowers feel at different positions on the path you are visualizing (On a side note, what you are feeling is partially the tug on your body from the centripetal forces of the spinning poi and the mostly it is their interaction with gravity). Especially pay attention to how an anti-spin flower feels as the poi passes your shoulder (the center of the circle) and as it reaches the outside tip of each petals.

When you say counting the spins, is that the same thing as counting the petals? You can make the outside petals (when the poi are in line with your arm) of an anti-spin flower to be when your arm is down, forwards, up, and back. Then your inside petals (when the poi are passing your shoulder) are at the diagonals between those. The pattern can also be rotated so that the inside petals of the anti-spin are at the up, down, left, and right, and the outside petals are on the diagonals. That will make more of an X then a +.

Here is just about every video Nick has posted on Flowers, happy spinning:


://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXJaMevBPXs

://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0anSMpb17MM



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EpitomeOfNovice
GOLD Member since Sep 2009

EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA

Total posts: 787
Posted:I'm working with flowers again and am making progress with them, if you could critique my progress and identify which one is which I'd appreciate it. Here's what I managed to get today when I went out to practice (it's sloppy, but happy it's something to work with at least and would like to clean them up and turn with them as well)




Thanks in advance for assistance, spinning for me has been serious business for the next line of moves I'm trying to do! smile

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1274119904)
EDIT_REASON: typo


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:I'm also working on my flowers, there's a few things. One is turning with antispin flowers. I can't get them clean at all. Can anyone help me with that? Also I see Nick do this a lot in videos. It's a goofy flower, hands same direction, poi opposite, but every time the poi pass by him, they both meet in the middle, so it's some type of polyrhythm and I can't figure it out.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:Originally Posted By: SpinnerofDetroit... Also I see Nick do this a lot in videos. It's a goofy flower, hands same direction, poi opposite, but every time the poi pass by him, they both meet in the middle, so it's some type of polyrhythm and I can't figure it out.
i practice that by stopping my arms every 90 degrees or so and checking that my petals are both passing my shoulder (middle) at the same time. when the arms are vertical bounce them slightly forwards and backwards, when the arms are horizontal bounces them slightly up and down.


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fearless1
BRONZE Member since May 2009

fearless1

stranger
Location: mackay nth qld

Total posts: 18
Posted:keep it up mate your on the right track

what i have noticed tho is that around the 1 min 50 sec in ya vid clip
try extending ya arms out more.. gives u better control and looks better as well when u lite em up


practice makes perfect dude ... keep it up smile


spin like your free..

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EpitomeOfNovice
GOLD Member since Sep 2009

EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA

Total posts: 787
Posted:Thanks much for the crtique, I'll work on extending and cleaning up the flow and sync. It's nice to know I'm making progress smile I'll dedicate some time to it outside since we should have clear fair weather tomorrow.

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:I mention this above to the original poster, but I think it'll help your flowers as well: not only do you want to extend your arms more, but you want to turn your torso into the flower. The only time you really want to be facing forward is when your hands are going straight up/down. This helps make your extensions more even and it can keep your shoulders safer from heavy poi tugging on them. (Sorry for only now responding to your video; I saw it before when I was in a hurry and forgot about it again until now :P)

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:I basically when turning with same direction split-time antispin flowers lock my arms and turn my torso very tilty. It works very well.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Thoroughly agree with Sister Eleven

EoN, and maybe the OP too, you need to twist your torso when your arms are flowering.
To look specifically at your video, when you're facing right (as you are in the vid), when you right hand is back, and your left foward, your upper body should be facing the camera.
With RH forward and LH back, your upper body should be facing away from the camera - regardless of whether your same-direction or butterfly'ing your arms.

This torso twist comes mostly from the waist/hips, with a bit of knee and spine twist too.
I strongly reccomend practicing just the arms (without poi) to ensure you can circle your arms fluidly and comfortably without thinking, switching between fwd, bwd, and butterfly in both directions.

Personally, (and I think Nick does too though haven't watched his tute in aaaaaaages) I advocate not learning x-petal flowers first. i.e. don't try for a 3 or 4 petal flower straight away.
Instead slowly circle your arms with your poi in fwd/bwd/bf ensuring the poi are both in plane and in time (whether split- or same-time).
You may end up doing a 52-beat flower, but it's a great way to find weak spots in the flower - and once mastered you can then start playing with the poi/arm speed which are what dictate the amount of petals.
If you find there's a certain position where the poi go squiffy, for example when you arms are at er... 7:10 - hold your arms in that position and correct the poi until they're back in time and plane.

It's a little monotonous, but as with most poi stuff, if you really drill the basics from the start, you'll reap the benefits further down the line.

The ultimate goal is to have your arms utterly independent of what the poi are doing, so it makes no difference to you if you're doing a 4bt fwd flower, or a 3:8 goofy butterfly flower.

To relate this back to the OP of turning with flowers, the torso twist is essential as it starts the turn automatically. Again using EoN's video:
Facing right, arms doing fwd circles
When you RH is back and LH forward, your upper body will be facing the camera, it then just takes a step back with the right leg, and forwad/across with your left hand for you to turn the 180 degress, whilst at the same time your RH moves to "up" and LH "down".

With practice, and depending on speed, this turn can become a spin/pivot on one (or even no) feet. Without the torso twist you're trying to spin your body 180 in a single beat, the torso twist slows this down to 2 (in a 4bt flower)

Hope this makes sense smile

P.S. EoN, I'd personally recommend against doing that first flower with arms in same time. The position of both arms back is very stressful on the shoulders, plus I don't think it looks that great as it's impossible to get your arms in plane.
Olive (From Paris) is the only person I know who can make this move work, and even then I wince when he does it.


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Originally Posted By: DurbsOlive (From Paris) is the only person I know who can make this move work, and even then I wince when he does it.


Slightly off-topic: I thought that was he was doing was actually going off-plane, so he is not trying to go straight back, but is doing something else. Could be wrong of course....


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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EpitomeOfNovice
GOLD Member since Sep 2009

EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA

Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: DurbsP.S. EoN, I'd personally recommend against doing that first flower with arms in same time. The position of both arms back is very stressful on the shoulders, plus I don't think it looks that great as it's impossible to get your arms in plane.
Olive (From Paris) is the only person I know who can make this move work, and even then I wince when he does it.


You're right and thanks for the reminder, I don't want an injury because I push to far naturally. I'm "double jointed" (well the truth is that my ligaments are too long, wonderful in dance until you push too far) so I forget because I don't always feel the strain.

I have been focusing on the petal amount I'll admit for the start of trying to get it, I'll put that energy into the pivot and hopefully not bonk myself too hardcore in the process.

Pivot makes the turn less extreme, very good perspective! Thanks much! grin


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:There is a bunch of good advice in this post. I'd like to clarify a few things.

Turning your body with flowers can be done wile keeping both poi on 1 wall plane and never changing the plane-facings. To practice this, flatten yourself against a wall with arms spread wide, turn your body round and round, arms spinning split-opposite... all the wile your hands should stay in contact with the wall and never break away. This paragraph is about the type of flower turning NOT being covered in this post, so back on topic.

Aside from the special case I mentioned above, turning involves changing plane facings, moving through cross-points, and changing which plane your poi is on.

In general the easiest and cleanest way to time your turns is with your cross-points aimed at the horizon. This means the poi head in that moment will be pointing out away from your arm and body, and will be as far away from hitting you as possible.

Review for a moment the basics of turning with one poi:
Imagine you are looking north along a corridor. You start spinning your right hand poi on the wall to your right (east), let's say forward. As the poi head is at the top of it's rotation, you start to turn and begin bringing your hand over to the other wall (west) that was on your left. As you do this with good timing, the poi head passes through the exact middle of the corridor (when the poi is exactly horizontal, poi head aimed at the horizon), and continues on to reach the other wall when the poi head points down. Since you've turned your body half a turn, you are now looking the other way: south along the corridor and what was the left-side wall (west) is now next to your right side.

The proverbial walls of the corridor are the boundary planes that frame you and the poi pattern you are spinning, but there is a 3rd plane that bisects the corridor exactly in half. This is the plane on which your cross points usually land.

Conveniently, it is the nature of antispin that every time you make a petal (loop) your poi head is pointing out as far away from you as it can. This means that if you hit your cross-point with a petal, you won't hit yourself.

When you are standing in place executing a flower in the corridor each hand is drawing it's flower on the wall (plane) next to it.

Let's say you are spinning an 4-petal antispin flower with poi and arms in split-time same-direction, arms reverse, poi forwards. As Durbs said, don't use the flower where the petals land at X diagonals (some call this box mode). Aim your petals so they land at the 4 cardinal points around a clock, like a +.

You are looking north up the corridor (exits are to the wait this is poi not D&D) You start to turn to the left when your right arm/poi is pointing down (left arm is up). When you are halfway through your turn, your body will be facing the west (what was the left wall), your arms will be horizontal and each poi will be hitting it's cross-points (wile making horizontal petals). Your right arm will have circled up to the horizon to hit the north cross-point, wile the left arm will have circled down to hit the south cross-point. You then follow through to complete the turn by landing vertical petals on their new walls. You will be facing south, right arm is up on the west wall, left arm is down on the east wall.

Notice that unlike most weave patterns each poi hit a different cross-point on either side of you at exactly the SAME MOMENT. If you aren't familiar with this feeling already, practice it with a simple Arashi jiggy practice:

Stand facing wall-plane with your arms out horizontally like your body is making a T. Spin your poi clockwise in split-time, as though they were wheels rolling north along the corridor. Turn your torso to the right a little and flip your right poi so it is drawing on the east wall. Practice turning your torso left and right, using the movement of your body to drive your poi in figure-8s. Your right poi hits the north cross-point at the same moment the left hits the south cross-point. Right poi may seem like it is spinning forward if you look over at it, wile left poi may seem like reverse. With good timing, your poi hit their cross points when they are aimed north and south at the horizon each time you turn your body.


+Alien Jon

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EpitomeOfNovice
GOLD Member since Sep 2009

EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA

Total posts: 787
Posted:I actually just turned with a flower after toying with my extensions and how I converted it in an experiment may be a good approach for somebody...

A.) In forward extended split time when my arms were horizontal/straight I did a 180 pivot and resumed in reverse split time extension and repeated this until comfortable an fluid.

B.) I slowed my arm movement slightly and allowed beat rotations to start happening while remaining in the same arm and pivot pattern.

C.) I slowed it down even further to get less beats keeping the rest of the formula the same.

D.) With a hesitation (not quite a stall) I reversed the beat rotation while keeping with the same formula of arm/pivot to get me to anti-spin

E.) I whacked myself after a few passes! tongue2

Hope that helps some, I also shortened my poi a bit since it makes it easier to observe while going through the motions. Durbs was spot on about making your move at horizontal with your dominant hand behind you, if the poi are extended to the maximum when you make your move your life will be much easier as well. smile


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Fugee
BRONZE Member since Feb 2010

Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas

Total posts: 2501
Posted:I wish it wasn't raining! I could put this method to the test!

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:My problem isn't turning with tmem, it's keeping them clean smirk I can keept it real clean flor 1 turn and then it starts to get worse and then i change the direction the petals are facing. I don't want that!

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: SpinnerofDetroitMy problem isn't turning with tmem, it's keeping them clean smirk I can keept it real clean flor 1 turn and then it starts to get worse and then i change the direction the petals are facing. I don't want that!

Practice hitting your cross-points at exactly horizontal with your petals at 3 & 9 O'clock wile your body is facing wall-plane. Then follow through to hit focus points at 12 & 6 O'clock with your body in wheel-plane.

Really focus on hitting your focus points and feeling the pulse of passing through an antispin petal.

Notice that wile continuously turning, your poi will always hit the up petal on one wall (west for example), and always hit the down petal on the other wall (east).


+Alien Jon

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SpinnerofDetroit
GOLD Member since Oct 2009

SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA

Total posts: 2280
Posted:Also when I mean they change where they're faacing, I'm not talking about "box" and "diamond" I'm talking bout someone in front of me to someone to my side.

Thanks for the help Alien Jon smile I'll practice that, probably a lot, and see if I get results grin I see Nick's and Thomas' flowers and they make me jealous tongue2


The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

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