Forums > Social Discussion > Domestic Aid, an honest assessment

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:.....THIS!

Yep, that's right it's a splinter thread to the international aid. We all know the issues within our borders and here is the place to compare and contrast this important issue that would derail the other thread. Talk about your nation, your concerns, your life, and what you see walking down the street right here. It's a much more honest assessment of our daily journey and a good way to share about things many of us don't know since this board is international.

whistleblower Tell it how it is right here, you know, so the rest of us knowyes


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:Well I have personal friends that access private domestic aid services, and their children seem to have benefited from that. However I know that my country's social security blitzes that of most countries bar Denmark, Sweden and few other very progressive countries, propped up by relatively high taxation, and relatively low defence expenditure. It certainly isnt as good as it could be, however I strongly believe that the vast majority of people who need social services could access them, but its normally that they may not know what they are able to access in a given area.

The flip side of the having a lot of available social support is that there are a very large number of people that access social support who really don't need it, and a significant minority who blatantly defraud the system.


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brenonfire413
brenonfire413

Fire Spinner Exarch
Location: New Orleans, LA United States
Member Since: 22nd Dec 2009
Total posts: 514
Posted:I don't know if this is really on topic, but a few years ago I worked in a restaurant where I was the only white guy in a kitchen of Hispanics, mainly from Mexico, Guatemala and Honduras and were illegal immigrants. Management knew, but were compassionate in that regard. They all got paid a normal rate and received paychecks. Nothing under the table, no unfair exploitation.
But anyways we'd talk a lot and they all had these amazing stories of how they eventually came to this country. Some of their travels seemed epic, the kind of stuff that would make great novels, if they weren't so cautious of our government. These two brothers who were my age came from Guatemalan jungle and grew up working in snake infested banana plantations where pay was basically food, shelter and security. When they finally left with their wives and children (and the adults were still basically teenagers at the time, they start young!)they had to sneak across the Guatemalan border into Mexico (yep, the county is so poor people hop the fence to find opportunity in Mexico) and worked their long enough to afford to be able to travel across that country and eventually sneak across into this country.
And you know what? They were all happy to be here. They saw this as their golden opportunity to work their asses off, provide for their family, be secure and to find entertainment. They said that if a man saved up $20,000 American (12,410 British pounds or 22,197 Australian dollars) he could move back to his home country and retire extremely wealthy, build a three bedroom two bathroom mansion, live comfortably and still be able to provide for family. The brothers each worked two jobs to provide for their families here and also to send money and gifts to their relatives back home. One of them was so excited to be able to buy a good stereo for cheap and was going to mail it down to his parents! Down there, they had virtually none of the things any of us here are enjoying. There was no money to buy such things and nowhere to go and get such things. The stereo would be powered in the town's communal generator and would be shared by all.
These people came from backgrounds completely different to most home grown Americans. They liked being here though, liked the culture and the people who treated them with respect. A lot of native Americans (I mean people, not Native Indians tongue2 ) outright despise these folk, seeing them as an all around burden to this country. But once you get to know them you realize they aren't any different from anybody else. Some have the potential to be jerks but most are good people who care and wish to be treated well in return.
And also that the people who make these journeys are just regular people- very young children to ageing grandparents. These weren't fit athletes with fancy camping gear, a GPS and laptop for Facebook updates, questing for spiritual fulfillment. These were people doing what was necessary to survive. Anybody can sympathize with that. If this was a different world where Mexico and Canada were the prosperous countries and America was a poor nation I think I'd be doing the same thing to try and change the way life would otherwise turn out. Wouldn't you do the same thing in that situation?


"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?"
"Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."
-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:^^ I might/ might not do the same...

Let me ask you in return: if you had 20.k US$ to retire right now to Guatemala - would you? wink

on topic social welfare is necessary as to stabilize a society within a nation, as to prevent social unrest, attempt to keep crime rates low and to distribute wealth equally.

Why do so many people regard the US as their "golden opportunity" when so many locals are struggling to make ends meet? Is it because they are highly motivated, take on jobs that locals would try to avoid and because they are able to keep up with circumstances to live in, which locals would find very hard to cope with (i.e. 4 people in a one bedroom apartment)? Is it because they do watch movies that paint the US (or the entire West) in a very different color than it actually is? Personally I was shocked to visit NYC for the first time.

I started traveling 20years ago and for the past 6 years I spent more time in Asia than anywhere in Europe. Had the opportunity to migrate to the US but dodged it after spending considerable time there. I left behind what your immigrants are looking for.

What do I see when walking down the streets in India? I see a lot of poverty a) when comparing it to western standards. But are these people really poor or do they simply live in vastly different circumstances than those in the West?

Most migrant workers here make 5$ a day in Goa (and that being a good payload), they do leave their homes in Karnataka, HP, WB, TN to come here for 5 months a year. Some of them are able to make as much as not having to work for the rest of the entire year...

I do see a lot of beggars on the streets... most of them not being locals but the wives and children of these workers, who are trying to add to the family income.

I also see an awful lot of absolute poverty in India, especially in cities like Delhi. I do observe the reaction of many locals towards beggars and do understand that this is their only way of being able to cope, facing such an amount of suffering every day.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomWhy do so many people regard the US as their "golden opportunity" when so many locals are struggling to make ends meet?

I think that it's because the US definition* of "struggling to make ends meet" is vastly different from the Mexican/Guatemalan/poor, developing country's definition of "struggling to make ends meet." *or UK, or Aus, or NZ etc

As as previously been discussed, people who are fortunate enough to live in the first world consider cars as a necessity and include their struggle for survival to be to pay for petrol for their car. People from countries who see the US as their "golden opportunity" probably see "struggling to make ends meet" as literally risking their lives as they go to work (as people do in some countries) or risking the lives of their children for reasons such as sanitation and nutrition.

They probably also see opportunity.

I never understood why so many island kids saw moving to Port Vila as their "golden opportunity" when back on their islands they had food and shelter in abundance, yet in the capital it was usually a struggle. The reason was there was opportunity in the capital, but not the islands. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a similar thing in this case.

Living with 4 people to one bedroom is probably a very, very small price to pay for those people given what they were probably living in in their home countries. The four people in one bedroom in the US probably has electricity and running water for a luxurious start!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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brenonfire413
brenonfire413

Fire Spinner Exarch
Location: New Orleans, LA United States
Member Since: 22nd Dec 2009
Total posts: 514
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom
Let me ask you in return: if you had 20.k US$ to retire right now to Guatemala - would you? wink


Yes. In a heartbeat. Year round growing conditions in a tropical climate? F**k yeah! I would buy the local populace, start a plantation and call it "Zombieland" and spend all day floating around in a hot air balloon wearing a top hat and monocle! tongue2
FT, do you live in India or are just there currently? I have a very high regard for Indian culture and have dreamed of traveling there for some time.
And what did you find so shocking about NYC? Sure the Bronx smells like an open sewer in the summer, but Times Square is cool, and it's a city so big and diverse that any person can find anything they are looking for. However NYC is hardly repesentative of the whole country. It's a cramped, loud and grey city but is quite a small island compared to the rest of the country. A two hour drive North takes you to upper New York state which is beautiful country, and Pennsylvania is right close by which is an excellent and culturally rich state, as is my home state Massachusetts.


"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?"
"Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."
-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well, keep me posted once you go 'temala wink

I'm currently living in Goa(malteka)... which to India is like CA to the US. It's one of the richest (micro) states of the sub-continent with the highest literacy rate and the best medical support/ capita. So it is not representative to the entire nation in most respects. However: To speak of "Indian culture" is like speaking of "European values"... it's a diverse nation - much like the US or the EU.

Errm first time I came to NYC, the A-train was not running and thus I had to take the bus from JFK to Manhattan, passing through Queens, in December... it's been the first time in my life that I saw homeless people standing around a barrel with a fire lit inside. Prior to that I thought this would only exist in movies. Over the years I stayed in NYC for a few months, visited Boston, Chicago, Miami, Tucson, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Alta, Park City, Sun Valley, Las Vegas, lived in L.A. during the Rodney King Riots and traveled some parts of Virginia, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Utah, California and (of course) the National Parks there... I'm no expert on American values or way of life and you definitely live in one of the ^most amazing countries on this planet, but I got enough of a first hand experience to know that - if push comes to shove - you got some real shady characters over there... definitely not my cup of tea. shrug

But back on topic:

Rouge: I guess you're right but there IS poverty in the US. There IS starvation and some people neither do have a home, access to medical support or shelter. Quite often it is just about the grass being greener on the other side... wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: Rouge DragonI think that it's because the US definition* of "struggling to make ends meet" is vastly different from the Mexican/Guatemalan/poor, developing country's definition of "struggling to make ends meet." *or UK, or Aus, or NZ etc

I've been to Mexico and there are parts where it is poor (no more poor than some bad parts of Baltimore, isolated parts of West Virginia, or tent villages of people outside of Honolulu or Kehei who cannot afford rent and still go to work/send kids to school/etc.), but poor none the less), but they still have electric and running water for the most part. Their current problem is with the drug cartels being domestic terrorists there. Mexico is a developed country and I've worked with many of their people in up here across the border, lucky our US dollars are worth a lot more down there than here. None the less, they miss their homes and once they save enough they can go chill in that awesome climate they have down there.

Quote:As as previously been discussed, people who are fortunate enough to live in the first world consider cars as a necessity and include their struggle for survival to be to pay for petrol for their car. People from countries who see the US as their "golden opportunity" probably see "struggling to make ends meet" as literally risking their lives as they go to work (as people do in some countries) or risking the lives of their children for reasons such as sanitation and nutrition.

Luxuries are not things required for survival, there is a difference between a tool and a luxury. People risk their lives to work here as drug dealers and prostitutes because if they didn't they would surely die or if they refuse (due to our human trafficing problems). They make a much better living than anyone working for minimum wage and shouldn't have that taken from them because of lacking a right to choose to do what they wish with their own bodies. Those are also the only ways to really make money as an ex-convict or a person with a low credit score who will be denied for almost all reasonably paying regular jobs that are still laying people off and having companies shut down. It's a vicious cycle that throwing money at hasn't even slowed down in the slightest.

Quote:Living with 4 people to one bedroom is probably a very, very small price to pay for those people given what they were probably living in in their home countries. The four people in one bedroom in the US probably has electricity and running water for a luxurious start!

Have you ever been forced to do this and do you understand that if you don't pay your power and water bill it's turned off? Utilities aren't for free, my electric bill last month was $200, water $50, and gas for heating $150 on top of paying my rent in a pretty low income area.

You do know that this is how our citizens live in many cases just to afford their rent (which normally starts at $700 per month for a one bedroom pending it's a non-affluent area) and the ones who are forced to squatting in abandoned buildings. Many live like this in my apartment complex and in the surrounding areas and they aren't undocumented immigrants either.

I don't think anyone can have a true appreciation for how hard things are in their own backyards when they have never been forced to be entirely self reliant or they don't stay in them long enough and go try to label another country as having problems because of superficial class terms that are absurd and irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned when people don't pull their own weight they're a liability and I have the utmost respect for the undocumented people doing everything they can to send a good life back home that someday they can hopefully rejoin.

Rouge, if you don't mind me asking the question and I'm not trying to be impolite, how do you manage to eat, keep a roof over your head, and pay your bills while being unemployed and why haven't you been able to find a reasonably paying job or a job at all?

I'm just curious about your life and experience in Australia and how you manage to survive when you're out of work without some kind of help. Maybe many of us (at times) are not that different than our perceptions of other lands if it were truly up to each of us to pull our own weight and there wasn't someone close by to help.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: EoNPeople risk their lives to work here as drug dealers and prostitutes because if they didn't they would surely die or if they refuse (due to our human trafficing problems). They make a much better living than anyone working for minimum wage and shouldn't have that taken from them because of lacking a right to choose to do what they wish with their own bodies. Those are also the only ways to really make money as an ex-convict or a person with a low credit score who will be denied for almost all reasonably paying regular jobs that are still laying people off and having companies shut down. It's a vicious cycle that throwing money at hasn't even slowed down in the slightest.

grin that's been the best justification to both keep prohibition and prostitution in one paragraph I've read in a long time... wink maybe send 'em all to San Fernando Valley... Daddy Spie is going to take care of 'em as the personified outcast social agent wink

duck footinmouth help sorry

I shut up for now - it's been a long day wink



the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:keep prohibition? I'm against the government having say over our people's bodies in any way, shape, or form. Having such laws should give me the right to think restricting what obese people eat is the right thing to do because it drives up medical costs and so forth. I don't consider that freedom and I'm a firm believer in equality. yes

What good does it do? All I see it doing is making taxes higher (because you can't claim drug deals or tricks on taxes and you get a welfare check on top of your 40K+ under the table), you also make taxes higher by putting these people in jail and through our court systems for victimless crimes, and you derail the natural order of people taking ultimate accountability for their own actions (yep, every action has an equal but opposite reaction and all that scientific mumbo-jumbo).

I think the most harm comes from inventing the secondary problems prohibition causes... wink


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceRouge, if you don't mind me asking the question and I'm not trying to be impolite, how do you manage to eat, keep a roof over your head, and pay your bills while being unemployed and why haven't you been able to find a reasonably paying job or a job at all?

I'm just curious about your life and experience in Australia and how you manage to survive when you're out of work without some kind of help. Maybe many of us (at times) are not that different than our perceptions of other lands if it were truly up to each of us to pull our own weight and there wasn't someone close by to help.

The welfare system in Australia is actually pretty good (full of flaws, aren't all systems?). There's pensions available for people who are struggling to find work (various things you need to do to maintain it though, like prove that you're looking for work) and housing planning as well.

Naturally, we still have a homeless population and the like, but for the most part I believe that our welfare system is very good. As I think Josh said, it's one of the best outside of Scandanavia.

And that's all I've got right now cos I'm racing today and I need to scoot so I can help the club prepare for the sausage sizzle beforehand!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: Rouge Dragon
The welfare system in Australia is actually pretty good (full of flaws, aren't all systems?). There's pensions available for people who are struggling to find work (various things you need to do to maintain it though, like prove that you're looking for work) and housing planning as well.

Naturally, we still have a homeless population and the like, but for the most part I believe that our welfare system is very good. As I think Josh said, it's one of the best outside of Scandanavia.

And that's all I've got right now cos I'm racing today and I need to scoot so I can help the club prepare for the sausage sizzle beforehand!

It's all good perhaps when you have some more time you can give a little more input. yes

It's pretty amazing you have that as we don't even come close here, but I more was looking for a more personalized answer on the question. I don't know how one on a housing plan and so forth can have a boat or race it at a club, shouldn't they sell that before asking the government and tax payers to help? I'm only asking because you have stated you're unemployed (I'd ask this to anyone, so I hope you aren't upset with me) and if you were to be receiving benefits I don't know how the government or taxpayers would respond to such knowledge. confused2

Just a touch confusing because I thought welfare was truly for people in dire need to stay afloat in between bouts of hard times, if this system is readily available why do people end up homeless and is it all their fault? Were they all given the opportunity to adhere to the guidelines or is there any other circumstance that could deny benefits? confused

Just curious about the true positives of a system existing and supporting people who technically are "living beyond their means" as we would call it over here making them in less need technically. I'm welcoming and asking for much more general "tell it how it is from personal experience" on this thread although it's good to have your insight on the domestic issue in general terms as well. I'm on no such program and we're a working unit here, but when bills get tough I'm quick to craigslist many things just to pay a high utility bill and or cover medical needs abruptly that can occur.

thankx in advance though for hopefully upcoming clarification and for your already standing response as well.

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1264883976)
EDIT_REASON: think it's complete enough now


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"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

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Felex
Felex

Destroyer of worlds and ooo shiny.
Location: In my own head
Member Since: 1st Jun 2009
Total posts: 268
Posted:Ok how about someone just makes a bored (play on words there) for slagging each other off and leave the hop alone?

You want to fix the world then try to fix it! Dont complain and call it as a opinion.

Right now I see a lot of angry people on here. By the way Im furious!
I can see where everyones coming from, my job involves seeing the middle ground!
Just get a grip!
Anyone want to argue, then I will argue things that I dont believe in and twist your words and beliefs any way I feel like!
Its easy a Muppet could do it.


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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:^^^
What are you talking about? There is no drama on here as of yet so why start it?

I think the best way of fixing the world is through self accountability and responsibility, so I'm holding my own in those respects (financially, etc) and I'm not a liability to anyone else (taxpayers, government, or good of my nation's well being). If everyone took such an approach the readiness for issues that arise wouldn't be complicated and undermined with long standing problems that have not been dealt with and lay stagnant.

What makes you think people are angry and why are you angry? I don't see any angry people (but you because you did yourself state that you are furious), I see people giving their points of view about what they observe through their lives and spoken through their eyes.

Anything a person thinks wether it's a complaint, a compliment, or something neutral that is simply commentary is an opinion, nothing more or less. As far as I'm concerned everyone is entitled to the 1st and 5th amendment (freedom of speech and the right to remain silent) so what's the problem? If it's so horrible the entire social discussion section should be removed because not everyone will have the same ideals, stances, or standards and this thread isn't even about one. It's about an evaluation of what we observe, comparing and contrasting.

That's it in a nutshell so what's wrong? That's quite an observation for someone trained to see the "middle ground". I'm lost on this and don't know why you'd troll like that *shrugs*

I'm not arguing, just merely asking a question as to how you got this idea and where your post is coming from. Please do tell.

BTW offtopic

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1264889571)
EDIT_REASON: forgot to state the off topic nature of Felex's post


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"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Hey EoN, wealthfare in Australia is viewed differently than in the US, it isnt just a sum of money 'for people in dire need to stay afloat in between bouts of hard times.'

It is a government income that not only allows you to stay afloat but provides for a quality of life that will improve your chances at getting a job.

If you have a low income you also recieve a health care card which dramatically reduces costs of medication, allows for discounted public transport (not in all states) or other discounts elsewhere.

You are provided with Job search facilities and training depending on our level of 'unemployedness.'

Australia also has free health care, so it actually doesnt cost me anything to see the doctors, or be in hospital (conditions do apply) again it is a broken system.

This income is potentially forever, but there are things that you need to do in order to continue payments. Ie. apply for a certain amount of jobs, attend varies seminars and skill workshops etc.

I am personally on a student form of welfare called AUSTUDY. I get a regular payment while Im studying fulltime. I can earn up to $6000 a financial year before my welfare payments are effected by work income.

Australia has a high level of tax to help pay for this. There are certainly those that take advantage of this welfare, but it is a lot harder to do today than it was 5 years ago. I knew a few people that surfed all day on welfare, or climbed on welfare.

I cant speak for Rouge, but Im not about to sell my climbing gear etc. just so that I can pay for rent for a year when I have a form of welfare available to me so that I dont have to. As a full time worker for 9 years I helped pay for people on welfare, so its my turn to benefit. And when I finish Uni and start working again I will start paying, through my taxes, for other students to do the same.

The system is really good but it does have a huge amounts of problems etc.

one of the main problems IMO is the fact that it doesnt actually provide support. People who are homeless also tend to suffer from some social or mental disorder and our disability care in Australia is woefull.

THe payment recieved are still well below the poverty line, so in you have debts or such it wouldnt cover these costs. Im pretty sure it wouldnt cover what is needed for morgage repayments, or rental repayments in capital city's.

The public housing system has a waiting list of over ten years, so it doesnt really help that much, and the amount of total houses are dropping each year.

EDITED_BY: WoodlandApple (1264919218)
EDIT_REASON: adding negatives


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Ok, another quick one as I'm still dealing with rowing stuff (just got a gig as a media relations officer for all of the local clubs and as there was a big regatta this weekend, there's a lot of stuff to report!)

Sorry, didn't realise you meant me personally!

I'm not collecting welfare or any benefits from the government, never have either.

I have a roof over my head and a full stomach because I have parents who understand my situation (uni graduate in search of that first job!) and are willing to support me. Naturally, this support is while I'm job hunting and being sensible and doesn't cover pocket money and the like. Any spending money I have comes out of my savings and odd-job money. My parents also support my racing because the see health and fitness as important.

When I wasn't living at home, I still had my parents helping me with rent and beyond rent (food, bills etc) I worked my guts off in between uni classes!

And just listen to Apple. That basically sums up anything else I could have said!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Felex
Felex

Destroyer of worlds and ooo shiny.
Location: In my own head
Member Since: 1st Jun 2009
Total posts: 268
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice^^^
What are you talking about? There is no drama on here as of yet so why start it?

All some people are doing is taking quotes from other peoples posts and then either arguing against or questioning them.
Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceOriginally Posted By: Rouge Dragon

[quote]Living with 4 people to one bedroom is probably a very, very small price to pay for those people given what they were probably living in in their home countries. The four people in one bedroom in the US probably has electricity and running water for a luxurious start!

Have you ever been forced to do this and do you understand that if you don't pay your power and water bill it's turned off? Utilities aren't for free, my electric bill last month was $200, water $50, and gas for heating $150 on top of paying my rent in a pretty low income area.

You do know that this is how our citizens live in many cases just to afford their rent (which normally starts at $700 per month for a one bedroom pending it's a non-affluent area) and the ones who are forced to squatting in abandoned buildings. Many live like this in my apartment complex and in the surrounding areas and they aren't undocumented immigrants either.


See.

Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice^^^
What makes you think people are angry and why are you angry? I don't see any angry people (but you because you did yourself state that you are furious), I see people giving their points of view about what they observe through their lives and spoken through their eyes.


Well theres you for starters.

Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice^^^

That's it in a nutshell so what's wrong? That's quite an observation for someone trained to see the "middle ground". I'm lost on this and don't know why you'd troll like that *shrugs*

I'm not arguing, just merely asking a question as to how you got this idea and where your post is coming from. Please do tell.

BTW offtopic

I never said I was trained to see the middle ground.
Thanks for saying Im trolling. I could just as easily say your doing the same.


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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:umm *cough* shrug

Felex, whatever... wink it really seems as if EoN is coming back to a open and friendly discussion, so why don't you?

EoN - not sure where you are going with all this.

As a starter you seem (!) to oppose international aid being paid between nations... as no "nation" should be put higher than another. To me basically a "nation" is representing "people"... if the vast majority of people (living within a nation) are suffering to a great extent (imo) they are legible to receive aid from donating countries.

If a single person is suffering to a certain extent, he is legible to receive welfare. Be it to receive shelter, clothes, food or money without directly exchanging it for his labor - as in "receiving donations"... If paid from the government to its citizen, society usually attaches strings to it (like having to do social or some other kind of work or to prove that this person is looking for a job - or because this person has created a bonus over the past...

Self accountability and responsibility, I'm all for it. But wouldn't that include (same) access to (equal) opportunities? wink

(btw prohibition leads to a shortage of certain goods/ services. if prohibition ends, the market usually reacts and providing them is only half as attractive)... Don't even want to inquire as to how it appears as if you support ... *cough* less legal activities as a skillful means to make money... when in reality it contributes to a vicious circle (drug pushing -> more addicts -> less workforce -> higher expenses for police/ judicial system less tax payers, more medical support necessary, higher secondary crime rate... more porn/ prostitution -> more money spent into this industry -> less funds for other markets/ promotion of drug abuse, trafficking of humans ->... just as a very simplified description) but really we don't have to go there, because I take into account that I missed your point entirely... wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: Rouge Dragon
Sorry, didn't realise you meant me personally!

I'm not collecting welfare or any benefits from the government, never have either.

I have a roof over my head and a full stomach because I have parents who understand my situation (uni graduate in search of that first job!) and are willing to support me. Naturally, this support is while I'm job hunting and being sensible and doesn't cover pocket money and the like. Any spending money I have comes out of my savings and odd-job money. My parents also support my racing because the see health and fitness as important.

When I wasn't living at home, I still had my parents helping me with rent and beyond rent (food, bills etc) I worked my guts off in between uni classes!

And just listen to Apple. That basically sums up anything else I could have said!

No worries about that as typing isn't my forte (or at least multitasking typing such as message boards) I'm a much better verbal communicator in person.

I only ask these questions in attempts at understanding where people are coming from when they discuss things to try and see where they draw their conclusions from. I think it's great if into adulthood parents choose to jump and help their kids during that transitional period and those kids are quite fortunate. The climate over here has changed so much with people losing their jobs, retirement funds, and so forth that the possibility has left for many who would have been able to say 5 years ago versus now. I think it also affects points of view as well on how things are in different circumstances so I appreciate the honesty about your personal view (ie you see the charm of living in a developed country where I see the sacrifices to survive in one).

I'm pretty sure many of our past differences come from experience view points and that's to be expected when people live two different lives and give an opinion on the same topic. I'm not exactly for or against many instituted policy practices because they can be done differently than they are and could leave a different impression on me with a change in stipulations. I'm 28 years old and have been on my own since graduating at 17 with the understanding that life is make it or break it, I still don't have a degree because I cannot afford it even though I'm technically very close (working to go to school, paying for school, then attempting to pay your bills was too much for me considering my degree would be useless without a PhD). I'm sure that if consequences were different for student loans and other US programs I would have chosen to use them, but now repaying my husbands student loans and such I'm glad I didn't because it would have been double trouble currently. I think it's pretty normal to oppose anything that seems to do more harm than good and while I'm sorry for getting on you like I have, I think my view of everyday life is very different because of the amount of potential consequences that I must take on personally where as a person who is just getting started and isn't fully financially independent isn't forced to face.

Originally Posted By: WoodlandAppleHey EoN, wealthfare in Australia is viewed differently than in the US, it isnt just a sum of money 'for people in dire need to stay afloat in between bouts of hard times.'

It is a government income that not only allows you to stay afloat but provides for a quality of life that will improve your chances at getting a job.

That is an entirely different concept than I am used to and that is for certain. When it comes to any type of aid or welfare the intentions and the policy are less of what I base my opinions on instead I draw upon the end results (yeah, an age old philosophical of ends vs means).

Quote:If you have a low income you also recieve a health care card which dramatically reduces costs of medication, allows for discounted public transport (not in all states) or other discounts elsewhere.

I thought you guys had universal health care (i guess that doesn't cover prescriptions or something, a touch confused on why a card is needed in that system) or at least not privatized health care (think the UK or Canada). I don't think that those practices are bad, but I think eliminating the concept of any "insurance" or "plan" might be the only way to keep doctors, drug companies, hospitals, and the like honest with what they charge and withing a reasonable profit margin through pure social pressure so that all beneficiaries of those services have control where it counts. I could be wrong and the switch could be catastrophic, but my second highest choice to keep them honest is universal health care that comes from taxation.

Quote:This income is potentially forever, but there are things that you need to do in order to continue payments. Ie. apply for a certain amount of jobs, attend varies seminars and skill workshops etc.

I am personally on a student form of welfare called AUSTUDY. I get a regular payment while Im studying fulltime. I can earn up to $6000 a financial year before my welfare payments are effected by work income.

Australia has a high level of tax to help pay for this. There are certainly those that take advantage of this welfare, but it is a lot harder to do today than it was 5 years ago. I knew a few people that surfed all day on welfare, or climbed on welfare.

In theory I think this is a very positive system because of it's backing in probable repayment from the recipients and isn't discouraging students from working a reasonable amount that shouldn't affect their studies. Of course there are people who can take advantage, but in the end it probably does more good than harm eliminating the concept that higher education is for the privileged (still is the case here currently and is not a good thing!).

Quote:I cant speak for Rouge, but Im not about to sell my climbing gear etc. just so that I can pay for rent for a year when I have a form of welfare available to me so that I dont have to. As a full time worker for 9 years I helped pay for people on welfare, so its my turn to benefit. And when I finish Uni and start working again I will start paying, through my taxes, for other students to do the same.

Say for example you didn't have that system, I think many things change when you look at things through that perspective. It's my personal choice to not draw that much attachment to things to be able to say I wouldn't sell things to cover one month's rent (which I've done tons and can do easily LOL), but that's a choice and "push comes to shove" is very different than what you will face with those measures put into place.

Quote:The system is really good but it does have a huge amounts of problems etc.

one of the main problems IMO is the fact that it doesnt actually provide support. People who are homeless also tend to suffer from some social or mental disorder and our disability care in Australia is woefull.

THe payment recieved are still well below the poverty line, so in you have debts or such it wouldnt cover these costs. Im pretty sure it wouldnt cover what is needed for morgage repayments, or rental repayments in capital city's.

The public housing system has a waiting list of over ten years, so it doesnt really help that much, and the amount of total houses are dropping each year.

That's the thing with systems for sure and I think we have the polar opposite in the US or at least in Delaware (you know how all 50 states have their own rights and way of doing things making most laws and policy on the state level when dealing with domestic concerns). I don't think it's right to extend disability payments for those who pay into the same social security system for a pension check that forces old people to work at walmart because it's below the cost of living when federally that is the only way to draw from that taxation and it provides no help to the able bodied people in situations out of their control that affect their well being. I don't know who could justify that to me let alone the fact that it's unconstitutional by creating a national identification card that has lead to so many problems since the internet age.

As far as medical assistance, welfare, and housing assistance, none of these things are extended (in my state) without being a parent (easiest to receive as a single parent and immediately guaranteed to the young ones) and have penalties left and right for doing right and wrong things. The maximum food stamp amounts are so low that they force people to eat the worst foods that raise obesity and health problems on such a diet. Also gaining more education or even complete high school full time is discouraged because of the amount of work required to receive benefits. I just can't support these practices in their current form as I see more harm than good stemming from them.

Originally Posted By: FireTom
EoN - not sure where you are going with all this.

As a starter you seem (!) to oppose international aid being paid between nations... as no "nation" should be put higher than another. To me basically a "nation" is representing "people"... if the vast majority of people (living within a nation) are suffering to a great extent (imo) they are legible to receive aid from donating countries.

If a single person is suffering to a certain extent, he is legible to receive welfare. Be it to receive shelter, clothes, food or money without directly exchanging it for his labor - as in "receiving donations"... If paid from the government to its citizen, society usually attaches strings to it (like having to do social or some other kind of work or to prove that this person is looking for a job - or because this person has created a bonus over the past...

I'm just trying to open a dialogue that makes several views make sense and doesn't have a right or wrong answer. It's more of an exploration than anything else. No one saves the world running their mouths on the internet, but they can gain mental stimulation none the less (and can be put to practical use on the individual level as well).yes

It's not that I'm against it or going anywhere in particular other than examining that current practices just don't cut it (mainly prioritization, management, and logistics). I believe that there is a difference between charity and taxation to go to funds for aid. I think charity is far more productive in many cases and is not as likely to be mismanaged. I also think it's vital for domestic morale that the difference is clearly seen and no money stems from bad blood or feelings of resent. Almost everything in it's current form I cannot agree with when certain policies are in place.

Quote:Self accountability and responsibility, I'm all for it. But wouldn't that include (same) access to (equal) opportunities? wink

There is a point where I think more harm than good is done (like how affirmative action causes reverse racism for example) and I don't think how (at least the US systems work) anything is being created more so than a greater divide. I also believe in the natural order of things and too much tampering has detrimental potential (example for instance could be preaching about abstinence in public schools and withholding knowledge about birth control/safe practices while only giving welfare to single parents, teen parents, and under privileged people who have children which can stem into other problems over time like over population and lack of resources).

Quote:(btw prohibition leads to a shortage of certain goods/ services. if prohibition ends, the market usually reacts and providing them is only half as attractive)... Don't even want to inquire as to how it appears as if you support ... *cough* less legal activities as a skillful means to make money... when in reality it contributes to a vicious circle (drug pushing -> more addicts -> less workforce -> higher expenses for police/ judicial system less tax payers, more medical support necessary, higher secondary crime rate... more porn/ prostitution -> more money spent into this industry -> less funds for other markets/ promotion of drug abuse, trafficking of humans ->... just as a very simplified description) but really we don't have to go there, because I take into account that I missed your point entirely... wink

Yeah, my point was more about personal liberty than anything, but at the same time I think people should be held accountable for offenses that do harm others and not their personal choices on how they treat their bodies. wink

While I see the your point, I think the level of prohibition here has created an insane amount of victimless crimes that ruin reputations forever regardless of a person changing their ways. When the substances given out by doctors are harder than most of what is desired on the streets I see things a little differently and a mixed message being sent. I also tend to think that such personal choices left to their own consequences would eradicate themselves when the sneakyness of substance abuse/prostitution/strippers(yeah I see it as the same because they're being paid for a "sexual service" and so forth they are being outed to social pressure and judgment and all the ugliness that can ensue is "out of the closet" giving the next generation something to base their opinion on other than "Just say no!" and public service announcements that I have to pay taxes on.

*has been alarmed at where my local and state tax money has been going here lately*

That's all I have for now, programs like this http://delcode.delaware.gov/title31/c015/index.shtml
are simply ones I cannot support nor do I feel do any good in the bigger picture. It's nice to have a dialogue going on and I have a better idea of where each of you are coming from (instead of a state of shock and dismay), it's good to be versed and understand your own stance before heading to the polls for voting and making many other decisions that influence finance and government so I think it's important to think about and discuss in general.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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hamamelis
hamamelis

nut.
Location: Bouncing off the walls.
Member Since: 5th Jan 2006
Total posts: 756
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceI thought you guys had universal health care (i guess that doesn't cover prescriptions or something, a touch confused on why a card is needed in that system) or at least not privatized health care (think the UK or Canada). I don't think that those practices are bad, but I think eliminating the concept of any "insurance" or "plan" might be the only way to keep doctors, drug companies, hospitals, and the like honest with what they charge and withing a reasonable profit margin through pure social pressure so that all beneficiaries of those services have control where it counts. I could be wrong and the switch could be catastrophic, but my second highest choice to keep them honest is universal health care that comes from taxation.


We do have universal health care in the UK, though we also have a private option. You can either use the National Heath Service, available to any citizens of the UK or countries with a reciprocal health arrangement (quite a long list last I checked- and we get treated same as the locals in those countries too) or pay for private treatment- some hospitals here are private, and some people do have private health insurance.

You do sometimes have to pay for prescription medication, (and dental/optical care) but it's not expensive (flat rate fee, regardless of quantity, currently 7.20- and doctors and pharmacists always seem to be really good at getting you the cheaper option- while travelling I had to get a cheap over-the-counter eczema treatment on prescription in order to be allowed to take it on the plane, and I got told by everyone at the pharmacy it was cheaper to just buy it over the counter, they took some persuading to let me pay the higher rate! Doctors also often prescribe me another treatment in silly bulk amounts so I get it cheaper- there's nothing in it for them to not do so)
Here, you don't pay at all if you're:
under 16
over 60
pregnant
unemployed
in full-time education
have certain medical conditions or disabilities.

A quick check on the NHS website states that 88% of prescriptions last year were dispensed free.

I guess the main reasons people here 'go private' is for elective surgery, and because they can have much shorter waiting lists than the NHS for non-emergency specialist treatment- my Mum paid for an arthritis diagnosis a few years ago when she otherwise would have had to wait 6 months to find out exactly which kind she had. Other people basically prefer it 'cos you can get nicer food and a private room in a private hospital.

Going a bit off topic there, but I wanted to clear that up.

I have been on unemployment benefits here- we get free or massively discounted access to a lot of college courses, they have a totally different attitude to education to what it sounds like your system had EoN- though the system is a bit messed up- depending on your area, you get a vastly different range of options for this, everyone they dealt with was only offered 'Retail NVQ level 1', which is a cringe-worthily simple course designed for those who dropped out of school at 15.
I believe in other places they actually have semi-decent options.

I did have a helpful liaison person for a while, who tried to get me on a photography course; however, it was 3 hours away by bus, which I couldn't afford, and in order for it to qualify through their system, it would have meant missing 2 days a week of the course in order to do jobsearch, then going in to sit in the college in a room by myself 3 days a week during the holidays, when the course wasn't running.. smirk

I wouldn't recommend the lifestyle, but you got enough money to live, eat OK, and do the very occasional fun thing if you were careful. I can see why a lot of people wind up really stuck in a rut and depressed in that situation; I was getting pretty far that way myself.

They didn't really help me at all getting back to work- but then there really was no work in the area at the time (really- the area I lived in was largely sheep-farming country, an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease had bankrupted a lot of farmers, followed by very badly timed closure of the two large factories in the town which had employed about 15% of the people. We had one of the highest unemployemnt rates in the country, and I think the highest youth one at the time. Being a school leaver at that point was not a lot of fun, and a lot of people I know from then who have stayed in the area- and it's 6 years ago now- still don't really work)- eventually, I wound up working back for my parents..

Here, it can bizzarely wind up being easier to afford University if your family are not rich.
Tuition fees are subsidised or not, to a varying degree based on your parents income (they are expected to pay if you're under, I think, 25, which can make it interesting in they don't want to..)- I did work last year with a guy who was at Uni, had reasonably well-off parents, but was one of their three sons who had all started Uni in the last two years (there was 18 months between him and his elder brother, and he was one of twins..) and they couldn't afford to pay for all of them.. so he was trying to work as well to pay the tuition fees.

Another guy who did a few hours a week had poor parents, they didn't have to pay a penny, and he was solely working for beer money...


THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!


If that's okay with you?

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:re. health care, it is universal kinda. The doctors at a practice (and at hospitals) send their bill to the gov. to pay. At some places you are asked to pay a 'gap' at the doctors and you recieve that money back by medicare.. That is for just normal services. Things like xrays and stuff still cost, but are discounted by medicare.

Our medications cost a flat rate if they are on the magic list of meds, around $21 (but im not too sure, its been ages since Ive been to a doctors) but if you have a healthcare card that cost of prescription medicine drops to like $5.

The govnt, here is trying desperatly to shift our health care towards privatisation. My friend has been on the waiting list for ear surgery for 9 years. If he had private health cover he would have had surgury already.

The good doctors dont want to work for the public service because it pays less, so the govt. allows them to run private clinics out of their office and using public facilities. But this means that doctors who are on the public list rarely make time to actually see their public patients.


With welfare for students. Most people I study with arnt on it because since they are under 25 they are still classified as dependant on parents. So they get no payments. With a system that accounts for students to have this welfare, to not have it is to struggle.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Originally Posted By: WoodlandApple
With welfare for students. Most people I study with arnt on it because since they are under 25 they are still classified as dependant on parents. So they get no payments. With a system that accounts for students to have this welfare, to not have it is to struggle.

And why I have never bothered with welfare and was glad I had supportive parents who helped me with rent.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Isn't the purpose of a government to govern rather than to serve the public? wink

"the natural order of things"... a quite polarizing expression innit? Sure, you got no home - be homeless then. No job, no food, no future... either die quickly or pick it up along "the natural order of things" and get yourself a blade/ gun and take what is yours to take from those who got aplenty.

"Victimless crimes" ... like credit crunch, global financial crisis? or more like a b***job in the car or a spliff on the beach? wink Might end up having to revise certain basic values of society then... wink

However, if people believe that money is 'stolen' from them and given to less fortunate (as for "aid" or "national healthcare"), then clearly they are living on or coming from a different planet than my own. Can't side you that private organizations manage their funds better than those run by governing bodies... should therefore be no more charity be given? I don't think so.

Charity and humanitarian aid (domestic/ international) are signposts for whether people still do live below animal or have evolved to human level. Even animals do help each others out.





[discl.: The above is my opinion only - you may dis/agree as it pleases you. wink )


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Felex
Felex

Destroyer of worlds and ooo shiny.
Location: In my own head
Member Since: 1st Jun 2009
Total posts: 268
Posted:The vid said more than words can do.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:FireTom, I can see where you're coming from completely, but let me clarify the technicalities to my views and how I've come to my conclusions before it all gets confusing meditate

I think government is honesty too big to be effective as a governing body or to serve the public as a governing body. With so many cooks in the kitchen it's no wonder recipes get all screwed up and orders jumbled. wink

As usual I stand squarely in the middle on victimless crime, considering that in the situations where there honestly is a victim something should be done and with other circumstances I truly believe in "no harm, no foul". I'm referring to the "in every sense of the word- Victimless" when I use the term (as in there is no way anyone else got hurt). wink

The people who truly believe they are being stolen from in my country (which is the half of my country that always makes me embarrassed to be an American ie "those Fox News Channel crazy people") have a right to complain and I think the money taken from them has bad karma in it. My definition of charity (wether it be from the government or privately) should be a choice and if the people who truly do care, but don't want it to be mandatory (which is where I stand because technically you are paying twice), would be more than happy to [insert: give/help/volunteer/make it their profession right here] and feel more call to urgency making a more well rounded, productive system with good karma than it is now. clap

Maybe I'm just a good-natured, optimistic type of person, but I think if things were gone about a different way and looked at in a different perspective we might have a very good change for society (this is coming out of the mouth of a person who thinks absurdism and antisociety are very good approaches to world peace along with lassez-faire politics) on a large scale that would manifest with a reasonable amount of patience. peace

Lastly I think that video could have been avoided from being made if humans were responsible for their pets and held a decent degree of accountability for keeping them safe and having them spayed and neutered, I can't even begin to discuss how sickened I am for people who can't take care of themselves having children or adopting pets. no I don't see how we cannot prevent atrocities like that or how that is somehow inspirational, to me it's a sad display of gross negligence. However you have to look at a huge picture to see it from that perspective and it all comes down to very basic levels of self responsibility that can make a huge impact on the welfare of others.

Much thanks as well to Woodland Apple and Hamamelis for clarification on those two healthcare systems as I think some political people opposed to reform here have twisted everything around to derail our own reform. hug

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1265055811)


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:[edited for clarity]

Karma is the law of re/action. Not sure where you're going with the "bad karma" here. There is "bad and good Karma" - like the balance of a bank account. Of course everybody is happy to cash in a check and withdraw money but always a little reluctant to pay their dues... And this is exactly where it comes to: if these people who need help wouldn't have a positive balance - according to the theory of Karma - they would not receive anything. On the other side those people who's money is taken to help are balancing their negative Karma...

And taxing citizens is within the rights of any government, there is no bad karma generated, neither for the government nor the homeless people. If tax money is used to aid (human) suffering, good karma is created.

This may or may not balance the bad karma generated by spending it on the creation of unnecessary suffering (like military actions for example).

Everybody has the right to complain - and it might be the easiest of all jobs - unless done "right" ... wink

Personally I don't identify international aid or social welfare as being "charity"... but maybe that's just me. Charity as such is not mandatory - at least last time I checked, nobody forced donations on the general public... wink As stated before: "charity" (imo) equal "social welfare"... Charity is giving something away, based on free will and generosity.

[on a sidenote]I would guess that where the above video was shot, the idea of "having pets" is a very different one to our understanding.... however I just wanted to point out that we can live together and help each others out of misery...

One more thought to ponder: One can only give what they got... and some can never have enough wink and if one doesn't feel happy sharing - don't. It's far better to be happy... at least one will share a smile and positive attitude.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1265902319)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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