Forums > Social Discussion > (International) Aid ... what is it good for?

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FireTom
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Posted:this basically is another aftershock - or a ripple of a deleted thread wink

[ed: there is another thread touching Social welfare - this one is more about the aspects of international aid - feel free to post here or there smile ]


I found the Wiki article on "Aid" and felt it touches important aspects - the most significant (imho) being:

Originally Posted By: WikiAid (...) is a voluntary transfer of resources from one country to another, given at least partly with the objective of benefiting the recipient country.[1] It may have other functions as well: it may be given as a signal of diplomatic approval, or to strengthen a military ally, to reward a government for behaviour desired by the donor, to extend the donor's cultural influence, to provide infrastructure needed by the donor for resource extraction from the recipient country, or to gain other kinds of commercial access.[2] Humanitarianism and altruism are, nevertheless, significant motivations for the giving of aid.

(...)

Aid existed in ancient times. More recently, in the nineteenth century, some private aid flowed from the Western countries to the rest of the world; missionary schools are an example. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, aid from governments was tiny compared to present levels, consisting mostly of occasional humanitarian crisis relief. Some transfers that would now be counted as aid, however, came under the purview of colonial office budgets. It was at the end of World War Two, in the contexts of European reconstruction, decolonisation, and cold war rivalry for influence in the third world, that aid became the major activity that it is today.

What do you feel about (giving) aid? Or about your governments providing aid for (humanitarian) relief to other nations?

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1264830704)
EDIT_REASON: splinters ;)


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Felex
Felex

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Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom

I must say that I find humanitarian aid a marker for the evolution of mankind.




I like that.


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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
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Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom if I find happiness in what I do I will do it the best way I can and not get tired of it. at the same time it doesn't matter if what I do pays well - but provides unhappiness - no money in the world could compensate me for peace of mind.

Yeah this was your off topic part, but not really because we were discussing communism and such. I must say that it's refreshing to hear someone publicly say that, I feel the same way and I think plenty more people do. However, they don't want the social shame or the pay cuts to allow them to do work they would enjoy.


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"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

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FireTom
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Posted:EoN: who is "they"? Personally the internal reward I'm getting from doing what I love can't be compensated for in numbers on pieces of paper...

In the end all that matters is
how much we have lived
how much we have loved and
how much we have learned to let go.

International aid as in money being paid or food being supplied is only good for the moment. In the long run only (general) education will provide chances.

But this is a double edged sword. Governments don't like educated people, because educated people do question (authority) and are not easily to be satisfied with "simply trust us".

IMO the West can pay money to developing countries. But a lot of it flows back into western companies receiving contracts and ultimately it puts these countries into a huge debt they will never be able to return.


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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
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Posted:"they" would be all of those who feel about work like you do but do not follow it for themselves due to social pressure, pay cuts, and being ostracized for making the choice to love what you do versus making a better living on a materialistic level. I think it's great that you have that internal reward but from my experiences and observation it is very difficult to set yourself up with that type of work ethic because you'd be committing social and financial suicide therefore we (mainly younger people) from my generation and the next one coming of age just don't even consider it a possibility and leave it to someone else to do because of judgment and criticism from friends and family (throw community in there too).

It seems here only people with trust funds or the very well off have the ability to go into that work with no negative repercussions financially or condemnation from peers.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:So after watching a documentary on the village in Romania that Borat was filmed in, I got to thinking.

The villagers wanted 30 million euro compensation. But what is a gypsy commune with little concept of saving or planning going to do with that much money? Certainly the do *need* that kind of money to build things like a sewer (which would probably take more than that amount, but still) but the individual people aren't the people who are going to build it. What on earth would the individual people do with the money in a town with a high level of alcohol abuse? (I'm such a sceptic...)

When people live hand-to-mouth, what can giving them large amounts of cash actually do? I don't believe that it can do much at all. Possibly even lead to bigger problems in the end.

I realise this isn't entirely on topic because aid is generally structured, but felt it was relevant in how aid in the form of infrastructure, education and opportunities is useful, but monetarily it's not necessarily the way.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Posted:^^^ very much in agreement but again wold like to point out that money is still needed for infrastructure, education and opportunites. It is easier to fundraise to pay for these things than to get contractors to work for free, or educators to teach for free.

EoN, with what you last posted, I live like that, I choose work and life satisfaction over money and chasing the Jones easily, and so do most the people I know.

If you choose to not live for money the social pressure dissolves. The concepts you mention that most people fall into is a trap. I dont care how my family or society judge me. I'll ignore them and go climbing.

Its kinda funny, because if you get rid of the desire for materialistic things, then the amount of money you need reduces dramatically.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

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Posted:Originally Posted By: WoodlandAppleIts kinda funny, because if you get rid of the desire for materialistic things, then the amount of money you need reduces dramatically.

I wish I could live that way in all honesty, but it seems that after paying rent, utilities, insurances, car payments, groceries the concept of even having a savings account is impossible. Paycheck to paycheck life is common here for middle class people due to inflation from many sources and medical costs or the car breaking or whatever else needs repair or it compromises other vital things. I don't wish this type of society on anyone and wish that something more constructive would come about, especially for people stricken by disaster wether it be natural or an invasion.

But yeah, the necessities takes up 90% of our income and accidents (aka "censored happens" kinda stuff) is what puts you into debt without being frivolous. I hope that makes some sense, although I'd love to do things that are constructive and I feel passionate about I don't have the income and would be choosing the problems of the world over my family that I'm just starting.

I think it's a tough call to live that life and to those who can do it that's awesome, there are just many ruts people come of age into and couldn't have that lifestyle without seeming self sacrificing or masochistic. Of course I'm talking about the conditions where I live and it may not be the case for citizens of other nations.


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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Posted:I dont think the difference is in the nation, I think its in lifestyle as I know many people who live outside Australia who live the same. For example when I go on "holiday" I put my tent in the back of my car and head off. It doesnt cost me anymore to go away. When I go skiing I dont go to resorts, I hike up the side of a mountain and go off piste.

But the key difference is that you have a family which is uber responsibility. For while my lifestyle requires little money it demands a whole bunch of time. Also the way that American society is set with holiday pay and time off from work blows. From what I understand is if you want a decent amount of time away you pretty much have to quit. THat would suck epic balls.

Most of my income goes into the necessities, after all is spent and accounted for, I have very little left over, but my lifestyle means that It doesnt matter if I only have $5 bucks in my pocket for the rest of the week. At the end of the day I only need enough money for the neccessities, I dont really mind about having anything left over.

Im not saying that your life or choices sucks, far from it. Just showing an example from the other side of the fence.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

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Posted:Woodland: You know that's a good point, it is a lot different for single people to help than other family prototypes who rely on each other. I bet that's pretty universal, there are pros and cons to everything I guess. I often forget how many people are married and/or starting families (especially early on) just don't have the resources like single people. I'm hoping that'll change in the next few years, but for now gotta avoid more of the sameyes

Funny how stuff evens out, it's like I've forgotten the disposable income I had in my early 20s when I was single and only had to worry about myself.LOL old

It's okay though and I'm happiest living the life that I am now, until things change easing up the usual "daily grind" and cost of living it will be a challenge, but worth it %100. As for aid, I think my biggest gripe on the topic is the mismanagement and poor prioritization on endeavors that involve money. For now and in the near future I'll maintain my lifestyle of not wasting and things that are no longer of use to me (and my household of course) being donated to those who would really need it because it's simple common sense and makes a difference on some level. I think people who can and want to make a difference is a great thing even though many people simply cannot due to circumstance or haven't considered the small changes that aren't very hard (the ones not involving actual cash or active volunteering on a time consuming basis).

It's funny in a way that this topic is being talked about and I've been wondering the whole time how many people know that the damage from Hurricane Katrina down in New Orleans hasn't been fixed and how many people are still in FEMA trailers and haven't been able to return to regular life because of how badly the management of the disaster was executed. It's been a long time since that and with the proper management and use of aid progress would have occurred and lives wouldn't still be in disarray. I don't know if any of the other nations represented on this forum saw any media asking for donations for that situation, but I'm curious to hear yea or nay and how International Aid is treated according to where tragedy strikes.

I know that many things are needed in rough times, but there are some problems that money cannot be thrown at and hope that someday a different approach is taken and advocated for.

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1264568852)
EDIT_REASON: back on topic and complete to boot:)


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FireTom
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Posted:Rougie: in such situation you describe it is necessary to not only throw money at people. Which is why not only the reason and purpose but those guiding the payments need to be of the highest ethical value.

I know that a lot of Australians (for example) oppose the social payments for the aboriginal communities and that it's similar if not the same in the US. But why do these people buy booze and sweets for that money? IMO because the very idea of money is not innate and a conception that ranges further than a few days or months doesn't appeal to them.

To some extent it's far better to show them respect and give them vast areas of land (back) so they can live the lives they want to live, spend that money on cultural programs and reward them for maintaining their "folklore". To spread (cultural) understanding at workplaces and within society.

**

International aid is even more abstract to many people because "why should we pay money to other people (that are so far away), when I need it much more (to pay my car or student loan)?"

First step to realize is: why do I need a student loan - to start with? Why is MY society built in a way that only those with corporate funds can afford good education? (not talking about elite education here... just "good"). Why has MY country the highest debt on the planet - and at the same time the most billionaires, the lowest petrol prices, the biggest cars? Why is half an hour of news packed with scary local headlines? Is there no good in my neighborhood, my hometown, my count(r)y? Or is there something that my government - or the people running my government - doesn't want me to realize?

Next thing to get a grip on is that without humanitarian aid a lot MORE people from developing countries will ultimately go where the dough is and subsequently turn up on your doorstep rather sooner than later.

"Yes, but we got homeland security for that, haven't we?" devil

Well - IMNSHO - if all the money spent on international troops patrolling Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq would be spent on infrastructure, schools, sewerage and medical support - terrorists would not have (such) a breeding ground. But that's just me. shrug If you'd ask Raytheon Company, they definitely got a differing opinion.

Books work much better than bullets in the long run (which is why they dropped bibles not bombs wink ) - because the person hit by enough experience and knowledge will not pull the trigger anymore. IMO Violence is born from despair and ignorance.

International aid is not trying to separate you from your comforts, vice versa - its very idea is to distribute wealth equally and to make your world a safer place. It's about a payback for natural resources which your corporates took (illegally) so your gallon only costs $ 2.55... should not rather them come up with international aid? You bet! But who is going to make them? Not you because you're getting stuck, thinking someone wants to rob you of what you believe is rightfully yours - when in fact it is only a compensation for what others got robbed of.

[my apologies if that comes across like a rant or condescending, not meant like this] hug


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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Posted:I donated when the hurricanes hit New Orleans, it was big news all over the world.

EoN Im interested on hearing if you heard much about the Australian Bushfires last year that ate up half our country, while the other half suffered floods? Was their much talk about that in the US?

I was evacuated from a bushwalk from those fires , and one of them came within 3 KMs of my home, pretty scary. The generosity of the Australian people through that was staggering.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomRougie: in such situation you describe it is necessary to not only throw money at people. Which is why not only the reason and purpose but those guiding the payments need to be of the highest ethical value.

I know that a lot of Australians (for example) oppose the social payments for the aboriginal communities and that it's similar if not the same in the US. But why do these people buy booze and sweets for that money? IMO because the very idea of money is not innate and a conception that ranges further than a few days or months doesn't appeal to them.

To some extent it's far better to show them respect and give them vast areas of land (back) so they can live the lives they want to live, spend that money on cultural programs and reward them for maintaining their "folklore". To spread (cultural) understanding at workplaces and within society.


um, you confused me a bit cos i'm not sure if you missed words or clauses out...but then I think I got what you meant and I agree and it's the kind of stuff that I mean.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
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Posted:yea - admittedly it comes across garbled.

My point being is that it might be difficult to pour money on people or into countries without this flow being directed by responsible organizations who know the local problems and how to tackle them.


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:bingo.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
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Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomInternational aid is not trying to separate you from your comforts, vice versa - its very idea is to distribute wealth equally and to make your world a safer place. It's about a payback for natural resources which your corporates took (illegally) so your gallon only costs $ 2.55... should not rather them come up with international aid? You bet! But who is going to make them? Not you because you're getting stuck, thinking someone wants to rob you of what you believe is rightfully yours - when in fact it is only a compensation for what others got robbed of.

[my apologies if that comes across like a rant or condescending, not meant like this] hug

I'm not upset or anything, but I am a touch confused so I have a few questions...

(side note: In the USA if you don't pay your student loans you go to jail, ruin your credit, and they are not included if you file for bankruptcy either. Yeah they can ruin your life until the day you die, just like your credit score with the big 3 agencies but more servere. Just want to make that clear. If you don't pay you go to JAIL!)

How is a car or education a luxury? Without a car you cannot get to work, without an education you cannot get a job, and you have to put gas in your car to get back and forth from work, you have to work for food and shelter... I don't get it and even if you lived on a commune you'd lose your land over property taxes and then what??? umm

Also how did I rob people of things they never had to begin with in a period where I wasn't even alive and why should I pay reparations when I'm pushed to the brink of survival myself by the descendants of those who allegedly committed this "theft" who have many messes by people long since dead on their hands? smirk Wow that was a mouth full!LOL
I think that's the other end of the spectrum that I think is as bad as extreme conservatism, extreme liberalism like that I think is equally wrong and makes equality amongst all people impossible. How much of this overcompensation will it take for equality to exist for all people anyways?

Can you please explain how that mindset is any more productive or positive than the one you speak against because once again I think these facts are a touch off in how they're being used contextually? hug


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
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Posted:Originally Posted By: WoodlandAppleI donated when the hurricanes hit New Orleans, it was big news all over the world.

EoN Im interested on hearing if you heard much about the Australian Bushfires last year that ate up half our country, while the other half suffered floods? Was their much talk about that in the US?

I was evacuated from a bushwalk from those fires , and one of them came within 3 KMs of my home, pretty scary. The generosity of the Australian people through that was staggering.

That's interesting and thanks for trying to help, but a good screaming session at Dubya and FEMA would have been the only way to get some progress done, guess The Patriot Act has everyone scared of being sent to Git-Mo if they demanded people at the top tier did their jobs. eek That's right, I went there, Oh snap! But seriously that whole situation is why I know money isn't the answer, that didn't have to happen and I'm glad the corp of engineers was held responsible for that levy have been taken to court for their negligence.

I'm really sorry to hear that happened to you and you can blame my media outlets for this, but I only saw a 30 second snippet on the evening news. If George Clooney didn't organize the huge Haiti telethon and we didn't have a large quantity of Hatian-Americans only a fraction of the attention would have been dispersed through all multimedia outlets. I'm glad your people were helpful and sorry because we have so few Australian-Americans that not much focus was extended nor aid called for.

When I see strangers in many circumstances I fear being assaulted, robbed, or killed and in disasters here it happens more frequently. Nice to know that wasn't a worry for you and hope you don't blame our general citizens for the lack of coverage on the airwaves and such, as we have no control over the AP or what they deem a top headline. no


~Rock on!~

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice

How is a car or education a luxury? Without a car you cannot get to work, without an education you cannot get a job, and you have to put gas in your car to get back and forth from work, you have to work for food and shelter... I don't get it and even if you lived on a commune you'd lose your land over property taxes and then what??? umm

a car and education is a privelige and a luxury of the 'wealthy' nations. Mainly because it is a comodity not available to most people on this planet. Or in another way, you dont have a 'right' to own a car or get an education - so therefore if you have the opportunity to have these things it is a luxury. Remember when I said that if you own three books, your in the top 10% wealthy? Its true, and I know that fact doesnt help you -or me for that matter- put food on the table, but the fact that you are able to have materialistic things is a luxury. Yes, luxuries have to be paid for and not everyone who has access to these can afford them. what I think is the real issue here is that the way that the first world is structured; these luxuries have become a neccessity.

A point that noone has raised yet is the fact that while you and I are considered wealthy in the world standard, the cost of living in a 1st world is dramatically higher than in 2nd or 3rd world countries. When I was working in Nepal, I could get a main meal at a local resturant for 20c, the same meal in Australia will cost $15.

Quote:Also how did I rob people of things they never had to begin with in a period where I wasn't even alive and why should I pay reparations when I'm pushed to the brink of survival myself by the descendants of those who allegedly committed this "theft" who have many messes by people long since dead on their hands? smirk Wow that was a mouth full!LOL


For me this issue is raised a lot in Australia when we talk about Aboriginal current and past issues. Why should we say sorry for events that happened 200 years ago, before we were born? etc. The answer to that is not one of guilt, you should not have a guilt over these things but there is a responsibility to deal with the legacy that your forefathers left behind. This isnt an individual thing, it is a people thing. Its not Eon dealing with these things, its EoN the American who should.

Or for me, I feel a resposibility to try to make amends as an Australian for what people in the past, as Australians have done to the Aboriginal communities. We inherite the legacy of the actions of our forefathers when it comes to good things but we have touble accepting the bad. A nation doesnt die and get reborn every generation, it grows and as a nation, there is a call to right the wrongs formed in its past.

In the issue of Aid, the western world has a legacy of exploitation of people and resources from now struggling nations. Africa suffers tremendously as a result of slavery, mineral exploitation and rasicm from the western world and we have a moral obligation to help resolve these things. IMNSHO.

Of course these are rants that are best served on top of a soapbox. cue emoticon - soapbox - The reality for a lot of people is that to right the wrongs of the past puts a tremendous burdern on people who are called apon to do so. I dont think its up to the middle class to continually prop up the upper class, and support the lower. THe rich has MUCH to account for in the greed and selfishness that infest their life. But mind you they have struggles too. Maserati's and Porches are really expensive to insure, and I couldnt even begin to work out the costs to heat a mansion.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

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Posted:Originally Posted By: WoodlandApplea car and education is a privelige and a luxury of the 'wealthy' nations. Mainly because it is a comodity not available to most people on this planet.

No, it's a requirement for survival. I cannot agree with this because people who don't have these cannot work and those who cannot work cannot survive. We don't have public transportation in most of our country, people commute to work on average over an hour nationwide, and this is not a choice nor do materialist examples that seemingly look valuable (but only to us in the industrialized nations) are of no use in these cultures and those goods are not a scale to judge them on. I think it's belittling and ignorant to think it's a gift to rely on technology and other modern "conveniences". It's like comparing apples and oranges, there is no comparison. meditate

Quote:Its true, and I know that fact doesnt help you -or me for that matter- put food on the table, but the fact that you are able to have materialistic things is a luxury. Yes, luxuries have to be paid for and not everyone who has access to these can afford them. what I think is the real issue here is that the way that the first world is structured; these luxuries have become a neccessity.

Than why not accept that because it is the truth. It's not my definition of luxury anymore than fire and simple tools were to the neanderthals wink

Quote:A point that noone has raised yet is the fact that while you and I are considered wealthy in the world standard, the cost of living in a 1st world is dramatically higher than in 2nd or 3rd world countries. When I was working in Nepal, I could get a main meal at a local resturant for 20c, the same meal in Australia will cost $15.

I'm against any world standard or new world order etc. This is a bad way to compare the reality of life in different areas and think it's best to abandon such misgivings. *the Cultural Anthropology major emerges from the depths*

Quote:For me this issue is raised a lot in Australia when we talk about Aboriginal current and past issues. Why should we say sorry for events that happened 200 years ago, before we were born? etc. The answer to that is not one of guilt, you should not have a guilt over these things but there is a responsibility to deal with the legacy that your forefathers left behind. This isnt an individual thing, it is a people thing. Its not Eon dealing with these things, its EoN the American who should.

Me? The EoN who is discriminated against (or can be) by Americans (even though I'm an American)for racial, religious, sociological, and other situations out of my control??? Why should I bend over backwards for part of my own blood line, it's useless and archaic thinking. You do realize I'm one of the biggest minorities in my country (thought photo would give some clues). Take it from a minority that such thinking is patronizing. Not trying to get on you or be mean, just trying to give another perspective. hug

Quote:Or for me, I feel a resposibility to try to make amends as an Australian for what people in the past, as Australians have done to the Aboriginal communities. We inherite the legacy of the actions of our forefathers when it comes to good things but we have touble accepting the bad. A nation doesnt die and get reborn every generation, it grows and as a nation, there is a call to right the wrongs formed in its past.

History should never be forgotten, lest it be repeated, however continually dredging up the past never allows the oppurtunity for new beginnings and a fresh start for peace.

Quote:In the issue of Aid, the western world has a legacy of exploitation of people and resources from now struggling nations. Africa suffers tremendously as a result of slavery, mineral exploitation and rasicm from the western world and we have a moral obligation to help resolve these things. IMNSHO.

You know African history yeah? You know where all the rest of the world got many of their ideas for such things from those regions?

Quote:Of course these are rants that are best served on top of a soapbox. cue emoticon - soapbox - The reality for a lot of people is that to right the wrongs of the past puts a tremendous burdern on people who are called apon to do so. I dont think its up to the middle class to continually prop up the upper class, and support the lower. THe rich has MUCH to account for in the greed and selfishness that infest their life. But mind you they have struggles too. Maserati's and Porches are really expensive to insure, and I couldnt even begin to work out the costs to heat a mansion.

While I think your soapbox was good intentions, might I get on mine soapbox Coming from a minority who has experienced some harsh conditions might I tell you that much of these concepts have been hindering the progress of any international understanding since the beginning of exploration. Really look into history and tell me how these ideals that have never worked are going to work with better intentions? Please don't patronize the entire world with these misleading "Western" concepts of a great life, it's just foolish and shouldn't be the grading curve nor should one exist. Repeating the same acts over and over again (yes I mean with modifications even) and expecting different results is insanity, some dictionaries agree with that definition. Something else is needed and it's not more of the same and with some ego loss might become common in all of our consciousnesses.

Thanks much! I feel better!


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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:I dont think its comparing apples and oranges, I think its comparing one apple, from both sides. I look at a car and see the possibilities that are now open to me, I think you see the lack of a car and see all the problems associated with it. I dont know maybe.

When I was calling you EoN the American, and myself the Australian I was attempting to call us out as representatives of a nation, not individual stories. the nation has to account for issues that it still has to deal with. We cant keep dwelling on the past, but nor can we continue to sweep it under the rug. Im not asking The Italians to recompensate the Celtic nation for suppression during roman times. Im usking us to deal with situations that are still a problem that was caused by us (us not actually being us, us being a nation or a society)

I would say I have a good understanding of the African modern history, having been born and raised there. I had first hand experience (thankfully from the 'white' side) of Apartaid South Africa, of tanks rolling down my street and of having to be led to school with armed escort. Having experienced the problems with Zimbabwe I can say that it is a tribute to western manipulation.

I dont think that repeating the ways we are 'trying' to help are going to help. my verbal diatribe is more on that there is a need to help; not in what form. Our help may be ineffective but trying to make a difference is better than doing nothing at all.

As for what examples of western best intentions working, well when I helped build that school in Nepal, and that hospital in Cambodia; the people seemed pretty happy and greatful about it. but thats probably my western ego talking.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:*scratches head* I don't think Nepal or Cambodia are like the people of the Amazon or Savannah. When I think of history, Africa and the Middle East taught everyone else practices such as slavery so I'm confused there too. If I'm an 1/8th native American why should I pay to a reservation that is covered and thankfully sovereign? I'm part Mayan should I also hold a grudge against Spain and missionaries? Assuming that people cannot do things and won't appreciate something done for them is just as ignorant as assuming they cannot do it themselves and somehow need pity.

I'm a multiracial, Buddhist female in America who has either been pitied for being born mixed or has been assumed to be foreign and harassed at the airport after 9/11 as though I'm something I'm not. I'll tell you I have never met an under privileged person or minority who likes pity but more so puts on a show to benefit from it or hide the pain.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:also, while Im thinking it. Having Lived and worked in 2nd and 3rd world contries, of experiencing the troubles they deal with (albeit through a window) and then returning to Australia and facing the issues that a 1st world nation confronts is the reason why I continue to compare these things. Having to walk for days through the himalaya's to get to the nearest medic clinic carrying a Nepalese porter has made me appreciate the use of a car. Watching a man carry a fridge strapped to his forehead down a street makes me appreciate a moving van.

I still concider a car a luxary having lived and worked in an area that has no other transprt than the two feet on the ends of your legs.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:2nd and 3rd world isn't even a politically correct statement and hasn't been for the last 10 years atleast. These places you speak of have their equal counterparts in my country, with no electric, cars, running water and some are close to metropolitan areas. While I know how ethnically diverse America is (first hand and seeing all the different people every where I go) and knowing many of them love their original homes more than here even though the money is here says a lot. With money comes problems. Most of the cultures I admire are step beneath your grading scale due to being tribal cultures who you wouldn't even classify as a developing country. There are culture who have existed without power and many other things for thousands of years in South America and they had to teach us how to make pharmaceuticals. I'll never think I'm better than many people, cultures, and lifestyles that are wrongfully pitied in my opinion.

If I didn't have a car, I couldn't get food, work, or anything for survival because of where I live. It's harsh to know you need money to make money, I think it's worse to instill the same values in those not already plagued with that.

I have never known anyone who can leave this country to help others or for a vacation (outside of North America so only Mexico and Canada) who are not already wealthy or have someone else supporting them.

While you see luxuries and think I see problems, I see imminent death without those tools you consider a luxury. I suppose many things confuse me on these topics and how many people think of them, but as a person who hasn't left my continent I've met plenty of wonderful people not from here who would vouch for the fact that it all pans out and has pros and cons either way. They hate being treated differently just like most people find offensive. Until this type of thinking ceases true change cannot occur.

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1264642937)
EDIT_REASON: It's now complete and hopefully sensable


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:maybe politically incorrect, but still a convienient way to describe geographical locations in a reference to the conversation at hand.

I agree. I have always said that without a job, you cant buy food, without food you cant eat, without eating you cant poo and without pooing you die. I also agree that you need money to earn money. But I also understand that the opportunities I have as a poor Australian is greater than the oportunties of a poor Nepalese. Yes, I need a car to surivive, but a car also gives me the chance to travel with convienience.

Quote:I have never known anyone who can leave this country to help others or for a vacation (outside of north america so only Mexico and Canada) who are not already wealthy or have someone else supporting them.

well, hello. My name is Jono smile

I paid for my travels through failed relationships, periods of homelessness and finding food in the bins in the back of bakeries. I have travelled through Australia because I figured if Im to be homeless, I might as well be homeless in pretty places. So I hitchhiked. I appreciate my car because there is times when Ive had to live out of it.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: WoodlandApple
well, hello. My name is Jono smile

I paid for my travels through failed relationships, periods of homelessness and finding food in the bins in the back of bakeries.

Hi, my name is Jessica and I've been homeless before due to this horrid monetary system and it took a ton of hard work to get out of it, but alas it's still challenging. wave

Nice to know we're still alive and kicking... and you're pretty lucky because if you pulled that here you'd be arrested! laugh3

I care a lot, have known a lot of people, managed to get a good education, and have seen enough bad juju to balance it all out which is where my approach comes from I suppose. I guess the best thing is that we both care although I think new ideas and rethinking the current "grading system" should be high priority instead of using conventional methods and practicality.yes


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovice[quote=WoodlandApple]

Nice to know we're still alive and kicking... and you're pretty lucky because if you pulled that here you'd be arrested! laugh3



its illegal here too. I got busted pulling beer out off a bottle shop bin once, it was pretty funny. the police dint press charges, they made me put the beer back though frown

Thats what Im trying to push, is to get people to care. The only way we can fix a flawed system is by caring about it in the first place. Ive been arguing in relation to overseas aid, so that is where my posts have been pointed to, how we can care and help people overseas. Dont get me started on the aid and troubles of our own individual countries. Then this thread will get accidentally deleted too.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: WoodlandApple Dont get me started on the aid and troubles of our own individual countries. Then this thread will get accidentally deleted too.

I think this is an interesting experiment and also an important issue as well. Glad we see eye to eye, hang tight and get a load of.........

Splinter Thread Inserted Here!

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1264645910)
EDIT_REASON: added link;)


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Owning a car is a true luxury. Here some tips on how to live without a car wink

Aid is not about the past. It's very much about the present. Resources are still being taken from poor and developing nations at an alarming rate today and for a fraction of what they are worth. And it's so people in the West can own that car and watch that TV.

And at the same time complain about "poverty". Poverty rate of indigenous people in the US is double of that affecting the rest of its population. And that is not a US American problem alone. FYI. These people are alive today. Like all of us.

Many people around the world don't even have material to build the very places where they could receive some form of education... let alone the teachers or books.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1264830924)
EDIT_REASON: blunting edges


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:*You know what, I don't think the above was warranted and I'm deleting the remainder of this off topic splinter that is a waste of everyone's time and my energy*
EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1264782669)
EDIT_REASON: because it's the right thing to do


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Felex
Felex

Destroyer of worlds and ooo shiny.
Location: In my own head
Member Since: 1st Jun 2009
Total posts: 268
Posted:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8477345.stm

EDITED_BY: Felex (1264659649)


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This Jaded Flesh
This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham
Member Since: 30th Oct 2009
Total posts: 323
Posted:Isn't that the kid that had his little brother bite his finger and his father put it on the net?

"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"

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