Forums > Social Discussion > Sentience...
Login/Join to ParticipateStargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
when it comes to vegetarianism or Buddhism I hear this term over and over again - often used as a class distinction between lifeforms...
Originally Posted By: Merriam Webstersen·tient
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel
Date: 1632
1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions
2 : aware
3 : finely sensitive in perception or feeling
This is the first chapter of Wiki on "Sentience":
Originally Posted By: WikiSentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. The term is used in philosophy (particularly in the philosophy of animal ethics and in eastern philosophy) as well as in science fiction and (occasionally) in the study of artificial intelligence. In each of these fields the term is used slightly differently.
In eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires our respect and care. In science fiction, sentience is "personhood": the essential quality that separates humankind from machines or lower animals. Sentience is used in the study of consciousness to describe the ability to have sensations or experiences, known to some Western academic philosophers as "qualia".
Some advocates of animal rights argue that many animals are sentient in that they can feel pleasure and pain, and that this entails being entitled to some moral or legal rights.
Personally I am stumbling over this topic especially since I am living in India and ... especially ... for as long as I can remember... Noticing in retrospective how dull I myself have been in earlier years (childhood) to the (possible) feelings and (possible) suffering of plants and animals - and other human beings... and how this seems now to partly repeat itself, facing .... India.
It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived here... (*)
I'm certain that someone will come up with a load of links to Buddhist literature (which frankly speaking I will simply not have the time to read). However...
More and more I am confronted with the impression that it doesn't really take much "intelligence" to drive a motorized vehicle or to receive training in higher business science or political science or law... as can sometimes be observed at climate conferences and how some companies t(h)reat their workers... or how some worker let himself be t(h)reate(n)ed... or how some presidents run their country... or how some nations let themselves be ruled.
Maybe even a PhD doesn't require that much intelligence or empathy as what I always thought...
It a huge topic as it covers much of human aspiration and self definition... Looking forward to see page 5
when it comes to vegetarianism or Buddhism I hear this term over and over again - often used as a class distinction between lifeforms...
Originally Posted By: Merriam Webstersen·tient
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel
Date: 1632
1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions
2 : aware
3 : finely sensitive in perception or feeling
This is the first chapter of Wiki on "Sentience":
Originally Posted By: WikiSentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. The term is used in philosophy (particularly in the philosophy of animal ethics and in eastern philosophy) as well as in science fiction and (occasionally) in the study of artificial intelligence. In each of these fields the term is used slightly differently.
In eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires our respect and care. In science fiction, sentience is "personhood": the essential quality that separates humankind from machines or lower animals. Sentience is used in the study of consciousness to describe the ability to have sensations or experiences, known to some Western academic philosophers as "qualia".
Some advocates of animal rights argue that many animals are sentient in that they can feel pleasure and pain, and that this entails being entitled to some moral or legal rights.
Personally I am stumbling over this topic especially since I am living in India and ... especially ... for as long as I can remember... Noticing in retrospective how dull I myself have been in earlier years (childhood) to the (possible) feelings and (possible) suffering of plants and animals - and other human beings... and how this seems now to partly repeat itself, facing .... India.
It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived here... (*)I'm certain that someone will come up with a load of links to Buddhist literature (which frankly speaking I will simply not have the time to read). However...
More and more I am confronted with the impression that it doesn't really take much "intelligence" to drive a motorized vehicle or to receive training in higher business science or political science or law... as can sometimes be observed at climate conferences and how some companies t(h)reat their workers... or how some worker let himself be t(h)reate(n)ed... or how some presidents run their country... or how some nations let themselves be ruled.
Maybe even a PhD doesn't require that much intelligence or empathy as what I always thought...
It a huge topic as it covers much of human aspiration and self definition... Looking forward to see page 5
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
(*) A man goes to sleep and in his dream an angel comes to him.
"You're soon going to die, so let me show you what to expect in the afterlife."
He get taken to heaven... an endless abode with soft, sun-drenched, rolling hills, birds in the sky and people hanging out in hammocks under huge palmtrees.
After that the angel takes him to hell... thumping heart throbbing rhythms play and the party is in full swing. Beautiful girls in seductive costumes move their bodies to the music and great laughter is all about... "Welcome," devil says to him... "see anything you like?"
He wakes up in his bed...
After some time he indeed dies and that same angel comes to him again... "Now, where do you want to go?"
"What a question," the man replies - "take me to hell, of course!"
So it happens, only that he finds himself in a huge pot of hot boiling water and the demons do all that nail pulling, skinning and poking with iron rods...
"But where is the party!" he exclaims...
Devil replies: "never mix up a brief visit with immigration!"
(*) A man goes to sleep and in his dream an angel comes to him.
"You're soon going to die, so let me show you what to expect in the afterlife."
He get taken to heaven... an endless abode with soft, sun-drenched, rolling hills, birds in the sky and people hanging out in hammocks under huge palmtrees.
After that the angel takes him to hell... thumping heart throbbing rhythms play and the party is in full swing. Beautiful girls in seductive costumes move their bodies to the music and great laughter is all about... "Welcome," devil says to him... "see anything you like?"
He wakes up in his bed...
After some time he indeed dies and that same angel comes to him again... "Now, where do you want to go?"
"What a question," the man replies - "take me to hell, of course!"
So it happens, only that he finds himself in a huge pot of hot boiling water and the demons do all that nail pulling, skinning and poking with iron rods...
"But where is the party!" he exclaims...
Devil replies: "never mix up a brief visit with immigration!"
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Quote: when it comes to vegetarianism or Buddhism I hear this term over and over again
That must be a Goa thing, I never hear it outside of sci fi movies. Might it be one of those "buzzwords" that people are using without clarifying what they mean by the term ? It could be something as simple as life.
Consciouness is another one of those words that gets battered around with everyone having their own interpretation of what the word means. What is it to you. a thing or a process?
Quote:It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived here..
Yes it is, first it's the guilt brought on by being a privileged "outsider" who has the freedom to leave and seek out a "better" life should they so choose. Then it's the eventual callousing of your empathy in the face of the realization that you can't do anything to fix the situation. You're talking about the poverty here I assume, and by here, I mean there.
Quote: when it comes to vegetarianism or Buddhism I hear this term over and over again
That must be a Goa thing, I never hear it outside of sci fi movies. Might it be one of those "buzzwords" that people are using without clarifying what they mean by the term ? It could be something as simple as life.
Consciouness is another one of those words that gets battered around with everyone having their own interpretation of what the word means. What is it to you. a thing or a process?
Quote:It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived here..
Yes it is, first it's the guilt brought on by being a privileged "outsider" who has the freedom to leave and seek out a "better" life should they so choose. Then it's the eventual callousing of your empathy in the face of the realization that you can't do anything to fix the situation. You're talking about the poverty here I assume, and by here, I mean there.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Tom, I think you have two different questions. One on sentience and on one dukkha.
Dukkha, is a Pali term which roughly corresponds to suffering, pain, unsatisfactoriness, sorrow, affliction, anxiety, dissatisfaction, discomfort, anguish, stress, misery, and frustration.
I think you get sentience, and compassion ie. “.. Noticing in retrospective how dull I myself have been in earlier years (childhood) to the (possible) feelings and (possible) suffering of plants and animals - and other human beings... and how this seems now to partly repeat itself, facing .... India. It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived here... (*).”
However, the next part of your question seems to relate to more to dukkha ie. “More and more I am confronted with the impression that it doesn't really take much "intelligence" to drive a motorized vehicle or to receive training in higher business science or political science or law... as can sometimes be observed at climate conferences and how some companies t(h)reat their workers... or how some worker let himself be t(h)reate(n)ed... or how some presidents run their country... or how some nations let themselves be ruled. “
In Buddhism, the Four Noble Truths on dukkha are taught as the primary means to end suffering ie. 1. Life means suffering. 2. The origin of suffering is attachment. 3. The cessation of suffering is attainable. 4. The path to the cessation of suffering.
Cheers
Tom, I think you have two different questions. One on sentience and on one dukkha.
Dukkha, is a Pali term which roughly corresponds to suffering, pain, unsatisfactoriness, sorrow, affliction, anxiety, dissatisfaction, discomfort, anguish, stress, misery, and frustration.
I think you get sentience, and compassion ie. “.. Noticing in retrospective how dull I myself have been in earlier years (childhood) to the (possible) feelings and (possible) suffering of plants and animals - and other human beings... and how this seems now to partly repeat itself, facing .... India. It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't lived here... (*).”
However, the next part of your question seems to relate to more to dukkha ie. “More and more I am confronted with the impression that it doesn't really take much "intelligence" to drive a motorized vehicle or to receive training in higher business science or political science or law... as can sometimes be observed at climate conferences and how some companies t(h)reat their workers... or how some worker let himself be t(h)reate(n)ed... or how some presidents run their country... or how some nations let themselves be ruled. “
In Buddhism, the Four Noble Truths on dukkha are taught as the primary means to end suffering ie. 1. Life means suffering. 2. The origin of suffering is attachment. 3. The cessation of suffering is attainable. 4. The path to the cessation of suffering.
Cheers
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Tom, I don't actually understand your question
Tom, I don't actually understand your question
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
GOLD Member
Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
787 posts
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
787 posts
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Posted:
The essence of Buddhist is an understanding that all phenomena is transient and everything is essentially empty in nature. All we have is the moment we are living in and there is no past and no future, only the present. While that may not seem to be monumental to mentally process, it's really hard to employ such knowledge in a practical nature. Until that point is reached "sentient beings" are a reality in our everyday human experience and are to be treated mindfully since that is the existence we're living in presently. Lesser lifeforms on the wheel of life don't have this knowledge to our understanding and higher lifeforms are beyond our comprehension so in the end it's a judgment call up to each individual that depends on how they view/receive the stimuli and environment around them.
Now here it gets interesting... *all other Buddhists reading this please acknowledge I'm a Vajrayana Buddhist who practices in the Nyingma tradition so your teachings may be different*
Considering the empty nature of the universe and how we create our own reality, everything on some level (that we either encounter or envision) is a sentient being and is to be approached with mindfulness. I'm sure this concept has many interpretations, but the intention has more to do with awareness and mindfulness more so than it has to do with any type of ethics or morality (as those are suppose to naturally stem from the preceding and the rest of the chain of events progresses from there based on the former, etc).
I didn't see an actual question in your post and think you wanted to just open up a dialogue about the topic so that is a tidbit of what I have learned at temple (during lectures, transmissions, and other functions there), through study, and in my reading. Hope the contribution gives the insight on the views of one Buddhist tradition.
The essence of Buddhist is an understanding that all phenomena is transient and everything is essentially empty in nature. All we have is the moment we are living in and there is no past and no future, only the present. While that may not seem to be monumental to mentally process, it's really hard to employ such knowledge in a practical nature. Until that point is reached "sentient beings" are a reality in our everyday human experience and are to be treated mindfully since that is the existence we're living in presently. Lesser lifeforms on the wheel of life don't have this knowledge to our understanding and higher lifeforms are beyond our comprehension so in the end it's a judgment call up to each individual that depends on how they view/receive the stimuli and environment around them.
Now here it gets interesting... *all other Buddhists reading this please acknowledge I'm a Vajrayana Buddhist who practices in the Nyingma tradition so your teachings may be different*
Considering the empty nature of the universe and how we create our own reality, everything on some level (that we either encounter or envision) is a sentient being and is to be approached with mindfulness. I'm sure this concept has many interpretations, but the intention has more to do with awareness and mindfulness more so than it has to do with any type of ethics or morality (as those are suppose to naturally stem from the preceding and the rest of the chain of events progresses from there based on the former, etc).
I didn't see an actual question in your post and think you wanted to just open up a dialogue about the topic so that is a tidbit of what I have learned at temple (during lectures, transmissions, and other functions there), through study, and in my reading. Hope the contribution gives the insight on the views of one Buddhist tradition.
~Rock on!~
"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life
(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Rouge
it's okay, cause the only question is "what is the question?" - the answer - as we all know - (to the ultimate question) is........... *drumroll*
42
[after]
Stout: nope... the term "sentient being" arose all over the threads on vegetarianism, as plants are not considered "sentient" beings. In this context, "sentience" is used as a class distinction to name what you can kill to eat and what you can't...
As to whether consciousness is a thing or process... no process without something that processes - so me thing(ks)
India is an entire subject on its own... only thing I can say is that mankind is doomed... And it's first the conditioned "guilt" that the outsider brings along, indoctrinated from all misconceptions about "poverty and colonialism and 3rd world country"... next is the rising awareness that you either go mad, run out screaming, strip from all your possessions until naked, cover in ash and let hair and nails grow or simply detach from your conceptions about "providing help" in its essence.
Stone: I can't really detect a question here... maybe it's misleading... EON has grasped it when saying that I'm looking for an open dialog on the topic... unfortunately it's between chat and discussion... but that forum doesn't exist...
If I remember correctly, suffering results from attachment... to my current possession, existence, body, society, planet, conceptions... ?
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is self-chosen" - a quote that resonates to a certain degree... There are two souls struggling within my chest. One is outraged by the condition of the environment on this planet, the condition of the human race, starts to believe that indeed Aliens control mankind and corrupted parts of our race, namely "the ill-huminati"
The other one is calm and just watches everything passing by - the ultimate observer so to speak... it's untouched by the misery of Pahar Gunj, leprosis, doesn't know about the killing fields, concentration camps, wars, plagues and least worries about "the end of the world"... it even regards everything as necessary for the development of higher consciousness...
EON: thanks for that.... considering the emptiness of the Universe... what (or who) is "we" that you refer to when saying: "we create our own reality"... ?
I'm not subscribing to -isms as such, though I find a tickle here and there in any one of them...
Steering a motorized vehicle requires some stage of awareness... is that already sentience? So how can sentience be determined? (here we got two questions now already)... is there a scale upon which we can measure sentience and (like on Moh's table of hardness for gemstones) determine "preciousness"?
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1260687850)
EDIT_REASON: lunch
Rouge
it's okay, cause the only question is "what is the question?" - the answer - as we all know - (to the ultimate question) is........... *drumroll*42
[after]
Stout: nope... the term "sentient being" arose all over the threads on vegetarianism, as plants are not considered "sentient" beings. In this context, "sentience" is used as a class distinction to name what you can kill to eat and what you can't...
As to whether consciousness is a thing or process... no process without something that processes - so me thing(ks)
India is an entire subject on its own... only thing I can say is that mankind is doomed... And it's first the conditioned "guilt" that the outsider brings along, indoctrinated from all misconceptions about "poverty and colonialism and 3rd world country"... next is the rising awareness that you either go mad, run out screaming, strip from all your possessions until naked, cover in ash and let hair and nails grow or simply detach from your conceptions about "providing help" in its essence.
Stone: I can't really detect a question here... maybe it's misleading... EON has grasped it when saying that I'm looking for an open dialog on the topic... unfortunately it's between chat and discussion... but that forum doesn't exist...
If I remember correctly, suffering results from attachment... to my current possession, existence, body, society, planet, conceptions... ?
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is self-chosen" - a quote that resonates to a certain degree... There are two souls struggling within my chest. One is outraged by the condition of the environment on this planet, the condition of the human race, starts to believe that indeed Aliens control mankind and corrupted parts of our race, namely "the ill-huminati"
The other one is calm and just watches everything passing by - the ultimate observer so to speak... it's untouched by the misery of Pahar Gunj, leprosis, doesn't know about the killing fields, concentration camps, wars, plagues and least worries about "the end of the world"... it even regards everything as necessary for the development of higher consciousness...
EON: thanks for that.... considering the emptiness of the Universe... what (or who) is "we" that you refer to when saying: "we create our own reality"... ?
I'm not subscribing to -isms as such, though I find a tickle here and there in any one of them...
Steering a motorized vehicle requires some stage of awareness... is that already sentience? So how can sentience be determined? (here we got two questions now already)... is there a scale upon which we can measure sentience and (like on Moh's table of hardness for gemstones) determine "preciousness"?
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1260687850)
EDIT_REASON: lunch
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
787 posts
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
787 posts
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: FireTom
EON: thanks for that.... considering the emptiness of the Universe... what (or who) is "we" that you refer to when saying: "we create our own reality"... ?
Yeah, what I was referring to would be that it is in the hands of each individual (that would be the "we", more specifically the human race) through their perceptions of their surroundings and all incoming stimuli, their actions, the interpretation of one's own thoughts and the esoteric nature of consciousness including the hyper real, and the feedback accepted from others are all a small fraction of a human's involvement in creating their own reality. Humans have a nature of assigning values to things and that's just a short list of influencing factors that make it vary a great deal between individuals.
Since everything truly is empty in nature (without meaning when not assigned by an individual) we truly do have more power over ourselves than is often thought about, so that's what I mean about "creating your own reality". Hope that clears up the phrase a bit.
Originally Posted By: FireTom
EON: thanks for that.... considering the emptiness of the Universe... what (or who) is "we" that you refer to when saying: "we create our own reality"... ?
Yeah, what I was referring to would be that it is in the hands of each individual (that would be the "we", more specifically the human race) through their perceptions of their surroundings and all incoming stimuli, their actions, the interpretation of one's own thoughts and the esoteric nature of consciousness including the hyper real, and the feedback accepted from others are all a small fraction of a human's involvement in creating their own reality. Humans have a nature of assigning values to things and that's just a short list of influencing factors that make it vary a great deal between individuals.
Since everything truly is empty in nature (without meaning when not assigned by an individual) we truly do have more power over ourselves than is often thought about, so that's what I mean about "creating your own reality". Hope that clears up the phrase a bit.
~Rock on!~
"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life
(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
the universe is mostly filled with "nothing"... aka "space" (the 5th element according to Tibetan Buddhism)... so it is not exactly "empty" but 'filled' with this element.
whether or not there is an "atman" - a self - is matter of dispute. i tend to feel there is but ultimately don't know. I could be just part of your movie - or you're just a part of mine... "we" could just be the same 'thing', looking back at 'itself'.
so "you" are telling "me" that there is a "we" or "us"... However I would say that every being assigns values to things (like dogs assign value to ... cookies and even trees might assign value to ... hugs )
you're talking about the holographic universe, aren't you? that "reality" as such is just a reflection of the incoming stimuli in the back of our skulls. ultimately we got no proof that "red" (or "strawberry") is exactly the same for every individual... and what Jasmine actually smells like.
the universe is mostly filled with "nothing"... aka "space" (the 5th element according to Tibetan Buddhism)... so it is not exactly "empty" but 'filled' with this element.
whether or not there is an "atman" - a self - is matter of dispute. i tend to feel there is but ultimately don't know. I could be just part of your movie - or you're just a part of mine... "we" could just be the same 'thing', looking back at 'itself'.
so "you" are telling "me" that there is a "we" or "us"... However I would say that every being assigns values to things (like dogs assign value to ... cookies and even trees might assign value to ... hugs
)you're talking about the holographic universe, aren't you? that "reality" as such is just a reflection of the incoming stimuli in the back of our skulls. ultimately we got no proof that "red" (or "strawberry") is exactly the same for every individual... and what Jasmine actually smells like.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Plants are sentient - therefore go vegan
"Evidence of a Primary Perception in Plant Life" aka "the Backster Effect"
insects and plants... animal rights forum
Originally Posted By: sentient timesAs a society we find it easier to attribute consciousness to humans alone, while even “Nature lovers” usually grant sentience only to those “higher life forms” that most obviously inspire, influence and animate our beings. We’re generally more aware of the consciousness expressed through butterflies and frogs than wild grapes or redwoods. Plants are nonetheless primary, essential repositories for a life-sustaining vision, for a “greener” way of being that’s needed now more than ever. The plant world helps us to recognize the myriad patterns of inter-connectedness, instructs us in the ancient code of reciprocity, and thus negates any unpleasant connotations currently being laid on “codependancy.”
How is it possible to reduce sentience to humans and plants alone?
Plants are sentient - therefore go vegan
"Evidence of a Primary Perception in Plant Life" aka "the Backster Effect"
insects and plants... animal rights forum
Originally Posted By: sentient timesAs a society we find it easier to attribute consciousness to humans alone, while even “Nature lovers” usually grant sentience only to those “higher life forms” that most obviously inspire, influence and animate our beings. We’re generally more aware of the consciousness expressed through butterflies and frogs than wild grapes or redwoods. Plants are nonetheless primary, essential repositories for a life-sustaining vision, for a “greener” way of being that’s needed now more than ever. The plant world helps us to recognize the myriad patterns of inter-connectedness, instructs us in the ancient code of reciprocity, and thus negates any unpleasant connotations currently being laid on “codependancy.”
How is it possible to reduce sentience to humans and plants alone?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
787 posts
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
787 posts
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: FireTomthe universe is mostly filled with "nothing"... aka "space" (the 5th element according to Tibetan Buddhism)... so it is not exactly "empty" but 'filled' with this element.
*scratches head and laughs knowing this would happen* I agree with you entirely but I mean the other definition of nature, not in the literal sense. Yes "space" is considered the 5th element but every single thing in our environment around us organic or synthetic can be broken down into subatomic levels that could equate it to space making everything equal to a degree that can be backed by science. I know I'm really not that different from a rock, water, plants, animals, and even synthetics because we start with the same elemental building blocks. I was also using empty in a different context as well, I'm sure you're just having fun now I hope and I'm not horrible at bulletin board philosophizing.
I enjoy how "full" emptiness can be and how "empty" that ultimate fullness is as well. I can't imagine how much everything would be lacking without having a comparative nature to analyze and balance everything.
Quote:whether or not there is an "atman" - a self - is matter of dispute. i tend to feel there is but ultimately don't know. I could be just part of your movie - or you're just a part of mine... "we" could just be the same 'thing', looking back at 'itself'.
I absolutely agree with you, but considering I'm perceiving and responding to this dialogue until proven otherwise I believe I am myself. I would love to experience the ability to truly question other possibilities, but until then I've gotta roll with what I've got.
Quote:so "you" are telling "me" that there is a "we" or "us"... However I would say that every being assigns values to things (like dogs assign value to ... cookies and even trees might assign value to ... hugs )
I'm sure that they can, but considering I'm not one of those other beings I can really only speak for "me" and the perception/possible illusion of being able to communicate with "you" and "me&you" according to grammar equals "we&us". I don't disagree at all with you, but certainly won't begin speaking for other beings or objects since I don't have any experiences from their perspectives first hand.
Quote:you're talking about the holographic universe, aren't you? that "reality" as such is just a reflection of the incoming stimuli in the back of our skulls. ultimately we got no proof that "red" (or "strawberry") is exactly the same for every individual... and what Jasmine actually smells like.
Partially I am, but actually the answer is more intricate than the holographic universe. I'm including much more than basic input and I know it differs in all individuals. I'm actually taking into account other factors like fantasy, hyper-reality, dream states, cognition, interpretation of perceived events, illusions, hallucinations, disassociative states, brain dead, truly dead, and many other variables...
Wow, I'm a far better talker than typer!!! It's all good though!
Originally Posted By: FireTomthe universe is mostly filled with "nothing"... aka "space" (the 5th element according to Tibetan Buddhism)... so it is not exactly "empty" but 'filled' with this element.
*scratches head and laughs knowing this would happen* I agree with you entirely but I mean the other definition of nature, not in the literal sense. Yes "space" is considered the 5th element but every single thing in our environment around us organic or synthetic can be broken down into subatomic levels that could equate it to space making everything equal to a degree that can be backed by science. I know I'm really not that different from a rock, water, plants, animals, and even synthetics because we start with the same elemental building blocks. I was also using empty in a different context as well, I'm sure you're just having fun now I hope and I'm not horrible at bulletin board philosophizing.
I enjoy how "full" emptiness can be and how "empty" that ultimate fullness is as well. I can't imagine how much everything would be lacking without having a comparative nature to analyze and balance everything.
Quote:whether or not there is an "atman" - a self - is matter of dispute. i tend to feel there is but ultimately don't know. I could be just part of your movie - or you're just a part of mine... "we" could just be the same 'thing', looking back at 'itself'.
I absolutely agree with you, but considering I'm perceiving and responding to this dialogue until proven otherwise I believe I am myself. I would love to experience the ability to truly question other possibilities, but until then I've gotta roll with what I've got.
Quote:so "you" are telling "me" that there is a "we" or "us"... However I would say that every being assigns values to things (like dogs assign value to ... cookies and even trees might assign value to ... hugs
)I'm sure that they can, but considering I'm not one of those other beings I can really only speak for "me" and the perception/possible illusion of being able to communicate with "you" and "me&you" according to grammar equals "we&us". I don't disagree at all with you, but certainly won't begin speaking for other beings or objects since I don't have any experiences from their perspectives first hand.
Quote:you're talking about the holographic universe, aren't you? that "reality" as such is just a reflection of the incoming stimuli in the back of our skulls. ultimately we got no proof that "red" (or "strawberry") is exactly the same for every individual... and what Jasmine actually smells like.
Partially I am, but actually the answer is more intricate than the holographic universe. I'm including much more than basic input and I know it differs in all individuals. I'm actually taking into account other factors like fantasy, hyper-reality, dream states, cognition, interpretation of perceived events, illusions, hallucinations, disassociative states, brain dead, truly dead, and many other variables...
Wow, I'm a far better talker than typer!!! It's all good though!
~Rock on!~
"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life
(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)
GOLD Member
Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
787 posts
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
787 posts
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: FireTom
How is it possible to reduce sentience to humans and plants alone?
Beats me, I have never done it and in my early instruction it was made clear that it encompasses more than we may ever know.
Originally Posted By: FireTom
How is it possible to reduce sentience to humans and plants alone?
Beats me, I have never done it and in my early instruction it was made clear that it encompasses more than we may ever know.
~Rock on!~
"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life
(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
TJF - or you are a mirror to the world and discovering it through the emotions and thoughts that its reflections create within you.
TJF - or you are a mirror to the world and discovering it through the emotions and thoughts that its reflections create within you.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
EON: we're on the same track
"sentience" used as a "class-distinction" IMHO is similar to racial hygiene in nature.
Not that long ago, animals were not considered to feel or perceive subjectively and thus they (still) can be treated inhumane and industrially farmed. Sports fishers claim that fish can't feel pain (same way as humans) so they wouldn't suffer from that iron hook penetrating through their heads...
I'm lacking words to express my feelings towards these obvious lies and practices.
The problem in that could be "empathy"... which is directly related to "sentience". The inability to subjectively feel what another subject might feel - considering ones self in that particular position under the same circumstances - is that what separates one from the other and as such sharply defines "individuality".
If this sharp definition breaks away, it is more about "us" that it is about "me"...
EON: we're on the same track
"sentience" used as a "class-distinction" IMHO is similar to racial hygiene in nature.
Not that long ago, animals were not considered to feel or perceive subjectively and thus they (still) can be treated inhumane and industrially farmed. Sports fishers claim that fish can't feel pain (same way as humans) so they wouldn't suffer from that iron hook penetrating through their heads...
I'm lacking words to express my feelings towards these obvious lies and practices.
The problem in that could be "empathy"... which is directly related to "sentience". The inability to subjectively feel what another subject might feel - considering ones self in that particular position under the same circumstances - is that what separates one from the other and as such sharply defines "individuality".
If this sharp definition breaks away, it is more about "us" that it is about "me"...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
stranger
4 posts
4 posts
Posted:
Haha! -Just FYI I get your Hitchiker's Guide reference. You can e-mail me at fordprefect@live.com
Haha! -Just FYI I get your Hitchiker's Guide reference. You can e-mail me at fordprefect@live.com
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
and that be good for...... ?
and that be good for...... ? the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Perhaps it would be useful to move away from senient/not-sentient to the idea of degrees of sentiency.
So, in terms of what most humans class as sentience, a dog would be 'less' sentient than a human.
(Whilst acknowledging that it other ways, dogs could have aspects of sentiency greater than humans- the obvious example being that dogs live in a world of smells which humans are completly oblivous to.)
But, when it comes to things like (human) social relations, awareness of self (in the human sense), humans have greater seniency.
Plants of course, in those aspects, being far removed from humans and lacking much of the physical apparatus by which those aspects of sentiency are realised (eyes, data processing brains, ability to move, etc, etc) would have less of such sentiency than either humans or animals.
------------------------
Additionally, it's useful to be aware that, in the eyes of some vegetarians, the issue of plant sentience/animal sentience, is not necessarily part of their choice to consume plants and not animals.
This is because many vegetarians/vegans choose to consume plants rather than animals, not because they consider plants to be non-sentient, but, because they're playing a 'numbers game'.
i.e. because animal production involves massive use of plant crops to feed the animals over their lifespan- so, even if a person ate exclusively meat and no plants, they would effectively be indirectly consuming far more plant life than a vegan.
The reasoning from there onwards being that, even if plants are sentient, the vegan lifestyle involves far less destruction of sentient plants than if they were eating meat instead.
Perhaps it would be useful to move away from senient/not-sentient to the idea of degrees of sentiency.
So, in terms of what most humans class as sentience, a dog would be 'less' sentient than a human.
(Whilst acknowledging that it other ways, dogs could have aspects of sentiency greater than humans- the obvious example being that dogs live in a world of smells which humans are completly oblivous to.)
But, when it comes to things like (human) social relations, awareness of self (in the human sense), humans have greater seniency.
Plants of course, in those aspects, being far removed from humans and lacking much of the physical apparatus by which those aspects of sentiency are realised (eyes, data processing brains, ability to move, etc, etc) would have less of such sentiency than either humans or animals.
------------------------
Additionally, it's useful to be aware that, in the eyes of some vegetarians, the issue of plant sentience/animal sentience, is not necessarily part of their choice to consume plants and not animals.
This is because many vegetarians/vegans choose to consume plants rather than animals, not because they consider plants to be non-sentient, but, because they're playing a 'numbers game'.
i.e. because animal production involves massive use of plant crops to feed the animals over their lifespan- so, even if a person ate exclusively meat and no plants, they would effectively be indirectly consuming far more plant life than a vegan.
The reasoning from there onwards being that, even if plants are sentient, the vegan lifestyle involves far less destruction of sentient plants than if they were eating meat instead.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
wow - it took over 15 minutes to believe my eyes thanks for coming back and sharing, OWD.
So "sentience" might often be used as a "class distinction"... and as such I would regard it erroneous. Mostly to the fact that humans tend to look at other organisms from outside, caught up in their own conceptions and delusions.
This "mind" most of us are using for determination can actually pose a greater hurdle than it comes as a blessing - depending on its usage.
I'm not certain you are there, but I follow on that slope of "capacity". In "perception", "processing" and "expression" (of sentience) - this said we're still to understand exactly how much plants (and animals) do communicate with each other (on which topics) and to exactly read their way of expression. One might be surprised what is in the craw of a crow.
Maybe a tree neither feels the necessity to mourn nor to suffer, or simply does it in a way we can't understand it due to our limitations.
From the first part of your response I take one thing:
Is "sentience" applicable for the human level alone? Or are we trying to compare a... MIG23 with a... mountain bike? Both specifically designed for their environment and (better) not to be exchanged for one another...
From the second part of your post I take:
Though it could take less animal products to feed a human being sufficiently than it takes plant products (the current dietary habits of many carnivores set aside), not ethical - just maths.
A cow for example feeds on a variety of plant life, but grazing itself mostly involves "grass". Itself a rather simple and perennial plant life form. Can be mowed, grows back...
But before now embarking on a rather lengthy journey, it's helpful to cut it down: (disclaimer: I personally oppose the current industrial farming of livestock - no question that it's inhumane and perverted; poses the source of unnecessary suffering on a large scale; spoils the environment to an intolerable degree. Which is why I do subscribe to "the numbers game" myself.)
Have you ever considered that this "suffering" referred to, might be a mere human conception?
When looking at nature, it is apparent that (physical) life and death are two inevitable components. Pain as such is also... inevitable.
Is "suffering" a human invention? A mere concept?
Don't get me wrong: empathy, true empathy is a gift. Projection on the other hand is a curse.
wow - it took over 15 minutes to believe my eyes
thanks for coming back and sharing, OWD.So "sentience" might often be used as a "class distinction"... and as such I would regard it erroneous. Mostly to the fact that humans tend to look at other organisms from outside, caught up in their own conceptions and delusions.
This "mind" most of us are using for determination can actually pose a greater hurdle than it comes as a blessing - depending on its usage.
I'm not certain you are there, but I follow on that slope of "capacity". In "perception", "processing" and "expression" (of sentience) - this said we're still to understand exactly how much plants (and animals) do communicate with each other (on which topics) and to exactly read their way of expression. One might be surprised what is in the craw of a crow.
Maybe a tree neither feels the necessity to mourn nor to suffer, or simply does it in a way we can't understand it due to our limitations.
From the first part of your response I take one thing:
Is "sentience" applicable for the human level alone? Or are we trying to compare a... MIG23 with a... mountain bike? Both specifically designed for their environment and (better) not to be exchanged for one another...
From the second part of your post I take:
Though it could take less animal products to feed a human being sufficiently than it takes plant products (the current dietary habits of many carnivores set aside), not ethical - just maths.
A cow for example feeds on a variety of plant life, but grazing itself mostly involves "grass". Itself a rather simple and perennial plant life form. Can be mowed, grows back...
But before now embarking on a rather lengthy journey, it's helpful to cut it down: (disclaimer: I personally oppose the current industrial farming of livestock - no question that it's inhumane and perverted; poses the source of unnecessary suffering on a large scale; spoils the environment to an intolerable degree. Which is why I do subscribe to "the numbers game" myself.)
Have you ever considered that this "suffering" referred to, might be a mere human conception?
When looking at nature, it is apparent that (physical) life and death are two inevitable components. Pain as such is also... inevitable.
Is "suffering" a human invention? A mere concept?
Don't get me wrong: empathy, true empathy is a gift. Projection on the other hand is a curse.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
This is a philosophy student's answer, but in ethical discourse "sentience" is used to denote the ability to suffer (whatever that happens to mean). It is also sometimes used, largely outside of analytic philosophy, to denote what most philosophers call "sapience", or possessing of some manner of intentionality (where "intentionality" is a further technical term)...
I recommend the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Online for more on what the terminology means in academic philosophy (which is probably where a lot of translators of Buddhist ideas borrow their terminology from).
This is a philosophy student's answer, but in ethical discourse "sentience" is used to denote the ability to suffer (whatever that happens to mean). It is also sometimes used, largely outside of analytic philosophy, to denote what most philosophers call "sapience", or possessing of some manner of intentionality (where "intentionality" is a further technical term)...
I recommend the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Online for more on what the terminology means in academic philosophy (which is probably where a lot of translators of Buddhist ideas borrow their terminology from).
p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s
GOLD Member
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
Why funny exactly?
Why funny exactly?
p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s
GOLD Member
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
I think I understand why it might be amusing.
Also, I can handle amusement at my expense; what I was mostly worried about was being grossly incorrect without somehow knowing it
I think I understand why it might be amusing.
Also, I can handle amusement at my expense; what I was mostly worried about was being grossly incorrect without somehow knowing it
p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
quite interesting...
"sentience denotes the ability to suffer"... gives food for thought.
Animals (or plants) are not able to suffer to the same extent that humans are, thus they are not (as) sentient as humans are and thus we can kill and eat them without suffering from remorse...
I've already expressed that I absolutely doubt any underlying philosophy of any religious concept to still be "pure" or the way their founding mothers/ fathers have intended them... so to me it doesn't really matter how much Buddhists today borrow or not. "- isms" by large don't appeal to me.
Thanks for pointing out the Stanford website, right now I'm a bit short of time but I willl browse it and shall return thereafter...
in the meantime merry x-mas
quite interesting...
"sentience denotes the ability to suffer"... gives food for thought.
Animals (or plants) are not able to suffer to the same extent that humans are, thus they are not (as) sentient as humans are and thus we can kill and eat them without suffering from remorse...
I've already expressed that I absolutely doubt any underlying philosophy of any religious concept to still be "pure" or the way their founding mothers/ fathers have intended them... so to me it doesn't really matter how much Buddhists today borrow or not. "- isms" by large don't appeal to me.
Thanks for pointing out the Stanford website, right now I'm a bit short of time but I willl browse it and shall return thereafter...
in the meantime
merry x-mas the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Hey, Tom!
Are YOU sentient?
Oh, you are? Then prove it.
Hey, Tom!
Are YOU sentient?
Oh, you are? Then prove it.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Interesting documentary on the (undiscovered) life of plants...
Interesting documentary on the (undiscovered) life of plants...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
Yet it didn't even reference my favorite botanical documentary, Day of the Triffids...
Yet it didn't even reference my favorite botanical documentary, Day of the Triffids...
p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
how would you know? you didn't even watch 30% ...
how would you know? you didn't even watch 30% ...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Cooler than bubblegum!
2,501 posts
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Cooler than bubblegum!
2,501 posts
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Posted:
Hmmm... Buddhist ideas + Stanford =
Hmmm... Buddhist ideas + Stanford =
The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...
GOLD Member
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: FireTomhow would you know? you didn't even watch 30% ...
I know because it's funnier my way.
Originally Posted By: FireTomhow would you know? you didn't even watch 30% ...
I know because it's funnier my way.
p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
SE: telling from the time you posted your reply, you were not able to watch even 30% of the documentary - so how would you know that "day of the triffids" would not be referenced?
now - "sentience" is all about "being funny" and unsolved equations... ?
SE: telling from the time you posted your reply, you were not able to watch even 30% of the documentary - so how would you know that "day of the triffids" would not be referenced?
now - "sentience" is all about "being funny" and unsolved equations... ?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
shadow stranger
462 posts
Location: Carmi, Illinois, USA
shadow stranger
462 posts
Location: Carmi, Illinois, USA
Posted:
wow the video on a tour through reality blew my mind wow
wow the video on a tour through reality blew my mind wow
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus
BRONZE Member
Cooler than bubblegum!
2,501 posts
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Cooler than bubblegum!
2,501 posts
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Sister ElevenOriginally Posted By: FireTomhow would you know? you didn't even watch 30% ...
I know because it's funnier my way.
I think it's all funny because when we start applying this term to plants we are in danger of loosing maple syrup because of unnecessary stress on the tree or subjecting produce to the torment of refrigeration. We may as well return to hunter gatherers and give a general disregard to our own nature.
Originally Posted By: Sister ElevenOriginally Posted By: FireTomhow would you know? you didn't even watch 30% ...
I know because it's funnier my way.
I think it's all funny because when we start applying this term to plants we are in danger of loosing maple syrup because of unnecessary stress on the tree or subjecting produce to the torment of refrigeration. We may as well return to hunter gatherers and give a general disregard to our own nature.
The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...
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