• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 200.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Lye
Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop

Member Since: 24th Sep 2009
Total posts: 270
Posted:So I'm trying to learn the 4 beat moves. When you do a 4beat corkscrew, if the right hand goes up first normally you just wrap your arms and let the left hand lead. On windmills the hands don't discernibly lead, so can you lead with either hand in the four beat in either direction?

Delete Topic

JaredW
JaredW

enthusiast
Location: Flying south for the winter.
Member Since: 26th Oct 2009
Total posts: 375
Posted:Start off doing a 4bt corkscrew, then keep the poi on the same planes but lean forward into it. Then just slowly start to raise back up but this time shift your planes with your body.

Delete

Sister Eleven
Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2009
Total posts: 1277
Posted:With a windmill it's probably easier to think in terms of your direction of spin than in terms of leading hands. Say you're doing the windmill, and it's spinning clockwise relative to your view. If you were to let your hands spin in that direction with your poi (albeit in a much smaller circle) you'll reach a point where your left hand crosses on top of your right; and it's the other way around if you're spinning the other direction. Whatever hand is under the other is going to more or less push the other to the other side of your body--the timing is tricky, but it's just a matter of practice.

One thing I had a hard time with for a long time is getting my hand to stay in front of me for an extra beat while I crossed them over. Say again you're spinning clockwise. When your right hand comes to the front of your body and the left goes behind you, you need to hold your right hand in front of you just one extra beat while you bring the left hand back in front for the twisty part.

Also I would recommend kind of emphasizing the wrist motion with the pushy hand. When pushing the windmill to the back of your body, really flex the right hand (again, assuming clockwise) back over your left wrist, and when coming forwards bend it forwards over your wrist. This give you a little bit more wiggle room to avoid getting smacked while you switch back & forth.

I hope this helps. The plane tilting trick from the 4bt corkscrew is probably the easiest way, but I had a hard time learning it that way. Hopefully this can be used independently of, or in conjunction with, that method.


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

Delete

AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:The good old "do the corkscrew version and tilt it up into a windmill" is a tried and true method.

Let's clarify a few things:
Corkscrew, Windmill, Hipmill, Watermill, Inside Windmill, BTB Watermill, etc, etc are all of the same topology. I would term this set of moves "Mills" (creative, I know). They are essentially the same move reoriented and placed in different zones around the body. This means they all follow the same rules, including adding beats to them.

So we have "Mills" and "Weaves", both of which are sub-types of the set of "Chase moves". All chase moves happen to follow this rule: If it takes an odd number of poi rotations (beats) to complete a cycle of the move, then the hand that leads over the cross-point will keep alternating. If it is an even number of beats, then THE SAME hand will always be leading over the cross-point, for a given direction of spin.
(cross-point defined simply: the place where a figure-eight intersects itself)

Said simply: Odd beats alternates the leader. Even beats the leader stays constant.

Of course, whether the chase move has a symmetric number of twists on each side of your cross-point for odd or even beats depends on wether you do a Weave move or a Mill move.

For Weaves, odd beats are symmetric about the cross-point.
For Mills, even beats are symmetric about the cross-point.

Originally Posted By: Lye...When you do a 4beat corkscrew, if the right hand goes up first normally you just wrap your arms and let the left hand lead...
If the right goes up 1st and then the left goes down 1st, that means you are actually doing a 3-beat corkscrew, which is asymmetric, and therefore has a "left-handed" or "right-handed" version. In other words it has chirality. You are either spinning anti-clockwise (when your plane faces the floor) and putting the extra twist at the top, or you are spinning clockwise (floor) and putting the extra twist at the bottom. So, you may need to go back and review what you think is a 4-beat cork and add the last beat!

Take a look at your plane old 2-beat windmills as well. The leader is the hand that crosses to the next plane 1st. if you are spinning anti-clockwise ( when your plane faces the front wall), then your right hand leads all the time. Left leads for clockwise.

If you add a 180 twist of the wrist to each side, you have a 4-beat (or 2nd degree) windmill**. What you have also done is switch which hand will be the leader. Every time you add or subtract a degree of twist (180) it changes which hand will lead!

So if you are doing an anti-clockwise 4-beat windmill, it is your left hand that wraps around and leads from plane to plane, dragging the right with it. The right hand is always just spinning on the current plane until the left carries it along for the ride.


** {for those of you who are thinking the math of adding two 180 twists doesn't add up to 2 additional beats: each 180 twist we add also has a corresponding 180 of rotation as we pass through the cross-point. 180+180 = 360 = 1 rotation = 1 beat.
Another way to count beats based on degrees of twist may be less confusing: count beats for every 180, but only for how long it takes to get from one side back over the cross-point. For example, in a 3-beat weave, we've just crossed to the right with our wrists twisted into a 1st-degree position (start counting at 0 beats). Now our wrists untwist 180 to a 0-deg position (thats beat #1). Our wrists continue another 180 twist into a 1st-deg position (thats beat #2). As we move back over the cross-point to our left side, we finnish another 180 (and beat #3), then find ourselves at beat 0 for the left side. Thinking of "beats" in this way gives you more information, especially concerning offset weaves or mills. If you add the 180 beats from each side up, and then divide by 2, you get the number of 360 beats for the whole move, which in this case is 3}


+Alien Jon

Delete

aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:That.... made so much sense....

Wow.... *click*


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

Delete

Rives
Rives

Nothing but circles and smiles...
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Member Since: 5th Jun 2009
Total posts: 118
Posted:wow... your explinations are great. if you made a dvd i would buy it, oh wait. you have. I'm gonna go do that now.

Delete

Sister Eleven
Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2009
Total posts: 1277
Posted:Originally Posted By: AlienJon...

Let's clarify a few things:
Corkscrew, Windmill, Hipmill, Watermill, Inside Windmill, BTB Watermill, etc, etc are all of the same topology. I would term this set of moves "Mills" (creative, I know). They are essentially the same move reoriented and placed in different zones around the body.

...

As a delayed point of curiosity, I'm starting to study general topology at a purely formal level, and I'm wondering how you go about applying topological concepts to poi. I could give you the definitions of what a topological space is, but right now actually applying it is kind of beyond me. tongue2

The only approach that occurs to me is to take the "sheets" traced by the poi in space as the objects of topological interest; am I on the right track? (Probably not the right forum for this type of question, but I'm hoping it'll get noticed here more easily...)


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

Delete

aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:I thought that sheets in topology had to be of infinite extent? Or am I misunderstanding?

Although it could have some interesting consequenses. smile


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

Delete

Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: Sister Eleven
I'm wondering how you go about applying topological concepts to poi.

You Don't

Yoy take a word like topology, sprinkle it liberally with white gas, set it on fire and once it's finished running around screaming, you stomp it's lifeless charred corpse with your plain English jackboots then scatter its component bits so it can't possibly reassemble itself like some sort of nightmarish etymological starfish which will grab your head with it's tentacles of confusion and slam it into your desk repeatedly until you do something foolish, like take up staff.

Seriously though, the key sentence is here.

Quote:They are essentially the same move reoriented and placed in different zones around the body.

Meaning...it's the same hand motions or pattern just with a different name depending on where that pattern is spun in relation to your body. What's a windmill ? Why it's just a corkscrew tilted up 90 degrees, same hand motion, only this time your head is in the way.



Delete

Sister Eleven
Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2009
Total posts: 1277
Posted:Originally Posted By: astonI thought that sheets in topology had to be of infinite extent? Or am I misunderstanding?

Although it could have some interesting consequenses. smile

For all I know, maybe? Like I said, what I know of topology at this point is at a level of extreme generality, and the text I'm reading is extremely abstract (Waclaw Sierpinski's General Topology) and doesn't really take an interest in the application to more familiar geometric objects.

Still, it seems implausible that topology should be able to give an account of something like a mobius strip (which, to the best of my knowledge, it can) while requiring that it be infinite in extent; though my sense of what's plausible could be easily awry here. Trying to tackle the basics of topology on one's own as a hobby is not really the easiest way to learn it, but it's what I've got to work with tongue2


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

Delete

Sister Eleven
Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2009
Total posts: 1277
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stout...

Seriously though, the key sentence is here.

Quote:They are essentially the same move reoriented and placed in different zones around the body.

...

Sadly, not the sentence I care about. tongue2

I can believe the term "topology" was being misused above (say, as a generic term for the moves sharing certain invariances), but on the off chance that it's not, I stand to learn something interesting. I'll let Jon tell me, if he will, about his use or misuse of the word.

Or if topology is actually, for sound mathematical reasons, inapplicable, I would love to hear what those reasons are.


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

Delete

aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoutOriginally Posted By: Sister Eleven
I'm wondering how you go about applying topological concepts to poi.

You Don't

You take a word like topology, sprinkle it liberally with white gas, set it on fire and once it's finished running around screaming, you stomp it's lifeless charred corpse with your plain English jackboots then scatter its component bits so it can't possibly reassemble itself like some sort of nightmarish etymological starfish which will grab your head with it's tentacles of confusion and slam it into your desk repeatedly until you do something foolish, like take up staff.

That was beautiful. clap


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

Delete

Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:We wouldn't want you doing anything foolish now, would we? angel

hug

Delete

AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stout
... Yoy take a word like topology, sprinkle it liberally with white gas, set it on fire and once it's finished running around screaming, you stomp it's lifeless charred corpse with your plain English jackboots then scatter its component bits so it can't possibly reassemble itself like some sort of nightmarish etymological starfish which will grab your head with it's tentacles of confusion and slam it into your desk repeatedly until you do something foolish, like take up staff.


Sir, That was an excellent roast! That cracked me up, and I take the hint about my use of terminology... Which I am trying to restrain to some extent. Hopefully you find my more recent posts filled with more plain english that cuts to the heart of the matter, rather than stuff that confuses.

I will say that poi terminology is already compiled from a sampling, interpreting, and often distorting of terminology from other fields. Some times it makes sense contextually during the initial discovering. Then later as a more thorough understanding of a move or idea develops, it makes less sense, yet we still try to bootstrap the old terms to the new understanding, and so it goes.

As such, I do introduce new terms sometimes, to avoid bootstrapping old terms and concepts into a situation that my intuition tells me will be equally confusing for people to try and makes sense of. The motivation is to get people to do a little side research on the body of knowledge from which the new term comes, in a hope that it will inspire a new way of perceiving some part of the poi body of knowledge or another. The idea is that there are plenty of fields out there that have been around longer, been more thoroughly researched & thought about, and are more over-archingly descriptive of how stuff works than poi alone. No need to reinvent the wheel, especially when poi is one particular type of wheel that plays by the same rules as a lot of other ones.

Some times I do a good job of picking a term from a body of knowledge outside of poi, where the atributes and concepts I'm trying to convey are already well understood and defined. This is of course dependent on how thorough my own understanding of said term from another field is. I may have a good internal grasp of the material, but fumble in transitioning the metaphor (sometimes I smash square pegs into round holes). Other times I might even be lucky enough to grok the part of another field of study that I am trying to convey well enough where I can make an eloquent application to poi.

So far, my track record of being able to help beginners advance their technique and their understanding is pretty darn good. I've been able to show beginners things that others deem "advanced"... and give them the model to understand it by, so that they have successfully made creative discoveries and interesting flow. On the other hand, some "advanced" spinners have learned "advanced" moves, but have a hard time integrating them into their flow, so that it looks like they just cut and pasted move X at random. They tend to lack the same understanding I was able to facilitate for the "beginners". But every body learns a little different, and not everyone is into my teaching.

So, everyone please do let me know how I'm doing. Question me as to why I'm talking in new terms. Question why I chose this term or metaphor. How well do I understand the field from which it comes, or prompt me to try to better describe which part of that field I think is importhat to apply to poi. It will help me to more concisely communicate what are sometimes concepts I struggle with conveying.


Concerning the term "topology", this has prompted me to look back into it a bit, because when I asked myself what I meant, I didn't haves as clear an answer as I thought. My familiarity with the term comes more from:Physical puzzles, which I was pretty good at as a kid.Knot theory, which I perused in a self directed manner long ago.Geographic Information Systems (GIS), which I studied in high-school (was in a pilot program as one of the 1st student groups using Arc Info on DOS)Computer networking, which I went to vocational school for, then interend at the IT dept of University of Maine @ Presque Isle I've also applied some of the techniques of topological simplification to play the board game Go (AKA Weiki in China, Baduk in Korea)
All of those are long ago, and my brain is a bit scattered and preoccupied with new things. Wikipedia's disambiguation of the word has to say this about it:
Originally Posted By: wiki
Topology is a branch of mathematics concerned with spatial properties preserved under bicontinuous deformation (stretching without tearing or gluing); these properties are the topological invariants.


This is what I'm trying to get at. There are certain forms created by poi in space-time, who's properties remain intacts even as you reorient them all around your body, stretch them out bigger and smaller, etc, etc. When you've augmented then enough, you come to a threshold (sometimes a fuzzy one) that once you cross, you've changed into another "poi topology". Getting to know these forms, and recognize when they are still the same form even in a drastically different situation is really useful. Or conversely, recognizing when there has been a barely perceptible change that has shifted to a different for is good too.


In terms of a practical application of topology concepts, one often simplifies a complex network, knot/puzzle, game state, or map down to to an iconic version that only illustrates the important relationships.

For instance, the subway maps in London, NYC, Berlin, ETC are topologically accurate, but topographically inaccurate, in order to simplify the presentation for ease of use.

Or in a game of Go, after reading out a game-state, I may see that there will be a forced exchange of 20 moves or so, with only a few good possibilities to fork off into. The results will be several big convoluted blobs of go stones on the board: hard to keep track of in the head, 20 moves deep. But there will be only a few key areas, and the rest of the blobs can simply be ignored as taking up the space in between the key points of interaction. often times the key points are the same for many or all of the possible good game permutations... just approached from a slightly different sequence, or angle. Cultivating these skills has allowed me to make sense of the relationships between many thousands of different poi variations. In fact I couldn't remember them all as individual things, but they make sense to me as permutations of "topological forms". This is also integral to how I can so readily extrapolate new ideas from any given poi concept.


Sister11:
Looking at the manifolds that the poi trace over time is indeed useful, and did arise from my brain churning topology around in there. A 3d modeling app makes it a lot easier to visualize. I think of different forms as manifolds in space, that your poi can trace along in different cycle timings.

A simple example I use when teaching beginners, usually without the mention of the words 'topology' or 'manifold', is that of the figure 8 as a race-car track: once you can do a figure 8 with one hand, you get a feel for the "track" your poi head is traveling on through space (not to be confused with the train tracks on the ground that Nick likes to talk about. We're talking RACE-CAR tracks here people!). Both poi could travel along the track, neck in neck, if you put your hands together. Or you could have them drive along the track from opposite sides of the track (together time 2-beat). Or, you could offset one, so that it chases the other through the cross-point. Keep in mind that these are all "same-direction" moves in the spin plane (This is to say when you project the pattern onto a plane that is perpendicular to the predominant axis of rotation). Each varient is using the same race-track, but with their overall cycle timings phase-shifted. You could also explore the same track with the poi going in opposite directions, in various cycle-timings.

Another interesting way to look at things: consider the spin plane projection of a move (say hybrid flowers for instance). This projection is 2d (x,y). If you graph it's passage through time as depth (z), then you have a 3d object. You can now more easily look at symmetries (both radial and mirrored) in the pattern of one poi, or between the 2 poi. If you do transforms on this object aligned with x and y, or rotations about z, you deal with spatial symmetries. If you do transforms in z, or rotations about x or y you deal with temporal symmetries. This will give you insight into how poi patterns relate and connect. you can think of the poi spinning as a plane slicing through these solids passing along the z axis. You can play it forwards reverse, whatever.

A simple example would be that if you "press the rewind button" on a weave it is reversed. Or you could think of the 3d solid as having flipped around x or y, it will be reversed along z, and therefor if time flows say in the positive direction along z what was a forwards weave 3d solid, will now be a reverse 3d one. Further more (assuming x is horizontal and y is vertical) if you flipped it around y, this corresponds to why a weave is backwards when you turn a 180. If you flipped it around x, that has to do with why someone hanging upside down wile watching you spin a weave, can perceive it as a reverse weave. Or, said another way, if you imagine a move upside down it can help you figure out how to spin that move in reverse.

Ok, enough of that craziness for now.


+Alien Jon

Delete

aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Quote:Another interesting way to look at things: consider the spin plane projection of a move (say hybrid flowers for instance). This projection is 2d (x,y). If you graph it's passage through time as depth (z), then you have a 3d object. You can now more easily look at symmetries (both radial and mirrored) in the pattern of one poi, or between the 2 poi.

Query: have you made this sort of space-time diagram?

Most I have seen are either in juggling or relativity concepts, which are 2D. Sadly my modelling skills are not up to the challenge of doing this myself. (Yet....)


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

Delete

Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Cheers Jon

I know we've been down this terminology road before and I'm sure we both have an understanding where each other is coming from.

I appreciate your efforts at clarification and IMO those efforts are head and shoulders above "that other guy" who liked to drop "strange" words into poi discussions.

Might the term topology be better suited to discussing concepts like extensions?


Delete

leospoi
leospoi

Poi explorer
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2008
Total posts: 108
Posted:Sorry for straying a bit too much off topic, but is there a name for the crosser meltdown kind of moves, where you have both arms crossed on one side of your body and you then move the arm belonging to that side to the other side?

Delete

AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: leospoi... is there a name for the crosser meltdown kind of moves, where you have both arms crossed on one side of your body and you then move the arm belonging to that side to the other side?
When you say "... you have both arms crossed on one side of your body...", I think you are referring to what Glowstringers refer to as an UTA crosser (Under The Arm). Here is some random tutorial I found on youtube:




When you say "... you then move the arm belonging to that side to the other side..." do you mean behind your back to get to the other side of your body? I do a sloppy moment of what you are talking about in the Arizona Poi Transmission vid at 2:21




Zan has calls those "Cocoons" for quite some time. I've heard Glowstringers call them "Full-body crossers", but I've heard even more stringers call a meltdown a full-body crosser... kinda ambiguous. I can kinda agree with the 1st usage, but I disagree with calling a meltdown a full-body crosser.

To head back towards the topic, a Mind Meltdown is one of those moves that is on the fuzzy boundaries between "topological forms". It is essentially the same as the 4-beat 'mill form in a lot of ways, but you have put your body in the middle of it. Because your body is in the middle it tends to change where the cross-points are, and of course you have to carry the poi all the way around your body (which gets in the way). This shifts the transitions between parallel planes a bit, in a way that corresponds to the change in cross-points.

Another move that is of the same topologic form as a 4-beat 'mill is what Nick likes to call a 4x4 fountain.




You are basically just taking the 4-beat mill and moving that around in a circle. Notice how Nick does this in several different "flavors" so to speak, form very close to the body, all the way out to arms stretched.


+Alien Jon

Delete

AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: aston
Query: have you made this sort of space-time diagram?...


Only in my head so far. I have my new laptop: a certified preowned Macbook Pro for those wondering (thanks Stout and anyone else who contributed to that endeavor). I have not yet installed bootcamp, WinXP, and ultimately 3ds MAX. I do have a good idea how I would make the models. If it was based on a simulation, I can use a modifier that extracts a 2d curve from the cross section of the poi models. I would do this for each frame arrayed along z by equal steps. I could then loft all the cross sections into the actual 3d form.
The vision I had today, however was to shoot live video. Then in post production animate a fade to a video effect like "find edges". This would turn the real-looking video into simple outlines of the hands and poi. From there they could be more precisely color coded if need be... basically stylized into an animated illustration. Once This is done, I can use the animation as a texture map on a rectangle that shares the same aspect ratio as the footage, in 3ds MAX. I would animate the rectangle moving in a positive direction along Z axis, corresponding with the videos progression from beginning to end.
It would then take a bit of work but I would trace out curves that correspond with the outlines in the video: at key points in the video. Then these curves could be lofted in the same way as mentioned before.
The beauty of this approach is that if I texture the 3d form so that it is "ghostly", ie mostly transparent, then we could see the form AND see the video passing through it, lining up perfectly with each slice of the 3d form.
I'm thinking of doing this with the basic variants of "cross-threading". Since there is an inside frame both bellow and above the shoulders, this will illustrate the power of "3D time-form" symmetry transformations:
Let's say we start with an inwards butterfly cross-thread in the lower inside frame. If you flip the "3D time-form" about the y axis you'll have the outward version in the low inside frame. If instead you flip it about the z axis then you have outward version in the upper inside frame. Or if you flipped it about the x axis, you'd have the inward version in the upper inside frame.
Hopefully that made some sense to someone, and hopefully I will make this video soon, so that it will visually make sense to even more people.


+Alien Jon

Delete

Lye
Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop

Member Since: 24th Sep 2009
Total posts: 270
Posted:So I've always wondered if you can do a uta crosser(just found out that move had a name) the other way... the poi going the opposite direction as they are in that video? I can't, but could one?

Delete

Lye
Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop

Member Since: 24th Sep 2009
Total posts: 270
Posted:Also I think what the guy is talking about is like half of a waistwrap.

Delete

AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: LyeSo I've always wondered if you can do a uta crosser(just found out that move had a name) the other way... the poi going the opposite direction as they are in that video? I can't, but could one?

Yes, it can be done the other way. When you do the one in the video, look over at that side of your body, and you could think of the poi as spinning forwards. You can aslo do it as though they were spinning in reverse. Further more, you can do these over the shoulders as well. So 4 a given direction of spin there are 4 possibilites, 4 zones to use.

These types of moves are all using a 2nd-degree twist position, and locking into a "crosser" there. It is very close to the same 2nd-degree postion that makes up a 5-beat weave on each side, but with your hands slid apart, so that one hand is near the armpit or shoulder. I was just thinking of making a video of these patterns.


+Alien Jon

Delete

leospoi
leospoi

Poi explorer
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2008
Total posts: 108
Posted:Ok, Cocoons sounds like a good name. I specifically avoided "behind the back" and "under arm crosser" in order not to leave out the other half of the variations, that is like the same move you are doing in the transmission video but the behind back version, so instead of the arm initially crossed in front of you, it is crossed in waistwrap and the arm that crosses to the other side does so from the front. I think that opposites and wheelpane variations are also possible.

Delete

Sister Eleven
Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2009
Total posts: 1277
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoutCheers Jon

I know we've been down this terminology road before and I'm sure we both have an understanding where each other is coming from.

I appreciate your efforts at clarification and IMO those efforts are head and shoulders above "that other guy" who liked to drop "strange" words into poi discussions.

Might the term topology be better suited to discussing concepts like extensions?

I think extensions would actually be the least interesting point to discuss topology. All an extension does is expand part of an existing movement. That is, if poi moves can differ topologically (as I would guess they can), an extension is the least interesting sort of topology preserving transformation. The same with rotating the movement, or translating it relative to the body. Where we would find interesting information is, say, seeing whether the path of one cycle of a three beat weave can be transformed by bending, stretching, etc., into something like a five beat weave or a windmill or a meltdown.

Not every transformation would yield a workable move, but I would find it theoretically interesting at least, and may offer further suggestive clues of the kind Jon mentioned when this thread was on topic. Too bad I don't have the mathematical prowess to actually do this sort of analysis myself tongue2


p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

Delete

AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: LyeSo I've always wondered if you can do a uta crosser(just found out that move had a name) the other way... the poi going the opposite direction as they are in that video? I can't, but could one?
Check out my 2nd Tech Blog.


+Alien Jon

Delete

Lye
Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop

Member Since: 24th Sep 2009
Total posts: 270
Posted:Originally Posted By: AlienJonOriginally Posted By: LyeSo I've always wondered if you can do a uta crosser(just found out that move had a name) the other way... the poi going the opposite direction as they are in that video? I can't, but could one?
Check out my 2nd Tech Blog.


Thanks!


Delete

SpinnerofDetroit
SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Member Since: 25th Oct 2009
Total posts: 2280
Posted:I thought those were wallplane 2bt weaves, at least that's what they were in the video that I learned it in. I still can't do i backwards though, I can't seem to get I to work even for a single cycle.

The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

Delete

Sister Eleven
Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2009
Total posts: 1277
Posted:A UTA crosser is basically a two beat weave in the same way a normal crosser is a windmill. The poi are doing the same things, but the arm positions and transitional possibilities are different. A standard 2 beat weave in that position would have the arm crossing your body in front of your other arm. It becomes a crosser when that same hand tucks under the other arm. The visual difference isn't big, but it makes things look weirder going in and out of it. Plus it requires some flexibility (that I don't have quite yet).

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

Delete

AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:You can also think of UTA & OTA crossers as "offset weaves" of a 2-beat nature. Similar to how if you do a 2nd-degree twist (5-beat) on one side paired with the 0-degree part of a 2-beat, you get a 3-beat pattern. The twists have been offset from 1<->1 to 2<->0.

+Alien Jon

Delete

SpinnerofDetroit
SpinnerofDetroit

All High Dude, Ruler of What You Want
Location: Trenton, MI, USA
Member Since: 25th Oct 2009
Total posts: 2280
Posted:Sorry Jon, but I had no idea what you were saying XD I also, on another not, just figured out the link between the 4bt windmill, the 4x4 fountain, and the matrix move. And it helped me learn the matrix move in a matter of 1 try after mentally figuring out the link between it and the 4x4. HOORAY! I've wanted to do this move and have been failing at it for at least a month grin
Can't wait to do it on my first burn coming up hopefully on Friday grin grin grin grin grin grin and about a million more grin


The only luck is bad luck.

Shut up before I stall my poi up your ass grin

Delete