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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:President Obama adresses students in nationwide speech


"The Cato Institute, a public-policy research foundation, issued a press release entitled "Hey Obama, Leave Those Kids Alone," criticizing the "troubling buzzwords" in the lesson plans:"

Originally Posted By: Cato Institute"It's one thing for a president to encourage all kids to work hard and stay in school that's a reasonable use of the bully pulpit. It's another thing entirely, however, to have the U.S. Department of Education send detailed instructions to public schools nationwide on how to glorify the president and the presidency, and push them to drive social change."

The US "indoctrinating" students? "Glorifying the president and the presidency"? whistle

weavesmiley peace angel what's "news" about this? help footinmouth

wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneWell MNS, I had a go at answering my own question on continental philosophy, and I came to a rather alarming conclusion. That was, given the combination of racism, ignorance and misplaced patriotism that was evident at the DC rally on the weekend, then the tea party must closely resemble an early nazi party. The rally was extremely well organised, and given that some estimates were as high as two million people attending the rally, then that is some scary message they are sending to the world.


Hi Pele, good to see you back.

Sorry, Stone... isn't that a bit "Given the global temperature rise over the last few decades my shoes are getting pretty worn out and soon I may have to buy a new pair."

How does continental philosophy fit in precisely??


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hiya Pele..LTNS. I've been doing the lurker thing too but keeping quiet because I came up with this personal philosophy of not posting on the internet when I should be working. I'm self employed, so slacking costs me money.

IMO it's a really good idea to have people who actually live in the country we're currently discussing, all we have is various media reports to cite in our discussions and, well you know the limitations of those.

So these teabaggers, photos of the march here how much of a role do you feel racism plays in their politics? Stone figures it's quite prominent, but in all those photos I can only find one that could be construed as racist ( the lion/lyin one ) but my feeling is these guys are more afraid of anything remotely leftist than anything.

I can understand the conservatives getting up in arms about the speech since two conservative POTUS had already given partisan speeches, so it's natural to think that "tho other side" would do the same thing.Edit..I see you said the same thing

Quote:Their bitterness, their antiquated ideals are under scrutiny and it makes them shift in their seats.

I fully agree with this and i can only figure this is what's *really* behind faith-based AGW denial.

The Full Quiver movement..yikes,,that's a new one on me. I'm well aware that conservatives subscribe to the breed like rabbits philosophy ( while liberals become "pet parents" wink ) however I'm not surprised to find that they've organised themselves under a banner. What to you figure, they homeschool their kids, send them to Camp American in the summer, then ship them off to Patrick Henry College ? These guys OTOH, certainly appear to be racially motivated, at least according to wikipedia and an article in The Nation that I read.

Stone..I too am completely lost on the continental philosophy thing.


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Stone, it was many different groups lobbying, mostly those of the health care venues, that helped the DC rally along. However, it was a convergence of many different groups on different levels.
The internet is a wonderful tool for rallying..well...tools wink

There is a video that was shot by a journalist at the rally. He went group to group and asked what they were protesting. People were there for many different reasons.

For example, Obama appointed a czar. Now, most people read the word and assume it means Russian leader. Yup but the US long ago adapted it to apply to the role of an advisor of sorts. People were there protesting this appointment, citing that we aren't in Russia. Imagine their embarassment when it was pointed out to them that both Bush's and Reagan all appointed czars. Whoops.

Others were protesting because they could. Refering to Obama as creating a fascist nation. Yet when asked what that meant, they described, and even used the terms interchangeably, communist and socialist.

Even though they showed up as a group, they weren't at all unified in achieving one clear goal or even making one concise point. That makes the rally ineffective.

The selective ignorance of people in this country pains me.
Anyway, I will look up the video and post a link here because it is really worth seeing, and it gives you the clear idea that no one really knew what they were there for. They saw and ad online and showed up with placards and redderick at the ready.
*sigh*

Hi Stout! smile It's a good philosophy really. Makes sense. How's it working for you? lol

With Teabaggers, first I have to say, the issue with being so conservative is that you don't even realize when you choose a sexual act for the name of your group! Bwahahahaha...
Anyway, they aren't racially charged.
When I was overseas I saw a lot of what I would call misrepresentation media. There was emphasis put on Obama being black. That isn't really the core of much, though there are many people who hate him for that reason...absolutely.
This is about power and money, like most other conflicts.

Racism is a really great shield to hide behind, and they are.
So is religion.
All that equates to is power and greed wearing the guise of Jesus in Blackface on the shield of war and discontentment.

For example, Bill Clinton proposed very similar health care reform. Republicans fought and he backed down. He even admits it.
Obama is not backing down.
Health care reform will mean a huge upset to the way money flows through pharmacuetical companies, through health care providers and make more work for less money on the end gov't. Drug companies are some of the strongest and loudest lobby-ists and this wouldn't do well for many of them.

This is also principle based. If he gets change on health care, something the conservatives have been able to control since jesus was a baby, what else will he push for change on? How far will he go?
He wants to end the war. War is an excellent money maker, and reputation builder. It creates this whole aura of strength, might and illicits fear. What do we have if we lose that? Less money and more scrutiny. Oh look..let's bomb them instead of looking at how I run my state!

Uh-oh, he wants to close Guantanamo. But that's where the secrets are. Again, whoops.

This is about money and control. It's about keeping dirty laundry hidden. It's about being comfortable being fat and lazy on the backs of others because when everything falls apart, these guys will still be in the senators seat believing they are untouchable.
It's about all that changing, and these good ole boys don't appreciate change so much.

Race is a really convenient scapegoat.
If Hillary won, it would be because she's a woman that things are screwed up, though I don't for a second believe she would have been strong enough to withstand all that Obama has.

Ah...Full Quiver.
*choke*
Scary aren't they?
You've nailed it...except they don't send their girls away. Girls are to remain in the home, with long hair and in dresses. Men are to go into politics.
They use the bible as their shield because they do believe that go forth and procreate brings them closer to God, but they have quoted the same bible verses that the neo-nazi's have, that conservatives have, to support their "White makes right" ideals. Racial purity is part of religious conservation to them. It's all one and the same, not viewed of as seperate at all.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: MNSSorry, Stone... isn't that a bit "Given the global temperature rise over the last few decades my shoes are getting pretty worn out and soon I may have to buy a new pair."

How does continental philosophy fit in precisely??

Fair enough, MNS. I dont think I professed to be an expert in the field, quite the contrary. However, Im left wondering if the superman/super race concept did not come from the continental philosophers, then where did it come from?



Good point Pele, the internet is a wonderful tool for rallying. A point not lost on the commentators.

I have to run now, but back tomorrow smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Existentialism is a part of continental philosophy... so is French Feminism and apparently the idea of otherness... if anything the dispelling of the super race concept has come out of continental philosophy. I didn't mean to come off rudely, I was just rather perplexed by your comment... where exactly were you reading?

Originally Posted By: Pele
Others were protesting because they could. Refering to Obama as creating a fascist nation. Yet when asked what that meant, they described, and even used the terms interchangeably, communist and socialist.

I have a few friends of friends involved in a right of centre political movement... having political discussions with them is pretty funny... They'll condemn their opposition as being facists and communists in the same breath. When opening up a discussion on certain things they tend to spout one liners and go quiet... spitting out what they've heard, not what they actually know.

Its quite startling how prevalent this kind of thinking is among zealots.

On Teabaggers... do they really know about the dirty laundry that they're trying to keep hidden? Or are they just gobble up the party propaganda that is driven by the urge to cover up dirty laundry?

I only wish hate and greed didn't have to be such a prominant part of politics, but its such a massive component of the thirst for power and as such will always be prevalent until we adopt a greek system...


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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:Originally Posted By: PeleEven though they showed up as a group, they weren't at all unified in achieving one clear goal or even making one concise point. That makes the rally ineffective...

...They saw and ad online and showed up with placards and redderick at the ready. *sigh*


so true, i've seen the vid and the bside and i decided to look up the teaparty website, it has lots of people being 'patriotic' but theres no explanation of what they actually are or stand for on the home page, perhaps theres more if you become a member, but i'm hardly going to let them use me as a number of their members just to find out what they actually exist for..

on a side note, i hope the blonde girl from the bside becomes a meme for youth of today, t'would crack me up smile


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonI have a few friends of friends involved in a right of centre political movement... having political discussions with them is pretty funny... They'll condemn their opposition as being facists and communists in the same breath. When opening up a discussion on certain things they tend to spout one liners and go quiet... spitting out what they've heard, not what they actually know.

Its quite startling how prevalent this kind of thinking is among zealots.

On Teabaggers... do they really know about the dirty laundry that they're trying to keep hidden? Or are they just gobble up the party propaganda that is driven by the urge to cover up dirty laundry?



It's disheartening how people spew a line they hear, with all of the conviction in the world, without knowing what one single syllable of it means.

I was actually equating this to a failing of so many principles in our education system in the US to a friend the other day.

Our education system was originally based on a seperation of church and state for all public schools, obviously this is *not* happening. Not when states~ more the point, the leaders and elected officials~ won't seperate themselves from church and in fact use religion as a platform to control the flocks. It leads to a single sided education system. This is mostly evident in the south and only limitedly so in the north, thankfully.

Then of course there is the original principle of education being based on the Socratic Method. Teach the students to research, to study, to ask and then answer their own questions and we will have a more educated society. This would be true if they followed up on that.
Public schools in the state of Texas recently passed that..kid you not, if a student hands in a paper with only their name on it and nothing else a teacher must give him/her a 50% instead of a 0. Why? It's bad for their delicate egos and easier to work back up to passing from a 50 than from a 0.
Oh and, if the kids fail the test, offer it again..as many times as it takes for them to pass. But not after school since that will cut into their sports time. They don't learn anything at all.
And this is very sadly not uncommon in many southern and some midwest states.
I was offered a teaching job at the Marine Military Academy in south Texas. I turned it down when I read all of that in the handbook. I have several friends who are high school teachers around the state and it's pretty uniform.

I truly think this is one of the many reasons why people talk sans knowledge, but do it with absolute conviction. They are told they aren't wrong. It's ok. And it doesn't matter if they learn as long as they can spew back what they've been told.
They've no interest in learning or educating themselves, that would take work and in this lazy, instant gratification society it's too hard to look up both sides on the internet? They only have to listen to FOX network or ABC and have their (religiously backed) Conservative views laid out for them.

*choke*

And no, I don't think for an instant the placard carring-tea bagging-hate and ignorance spewing vigilante groups know what they are saying, let alone what they are helping to keep hidden. I think they are loving what they are being spoon fed because it is so filled with warm and fuzzies over protecting *THEIR* version of the American dream, regardless of how many others have to pay the price and sacrifice their own.

Mr. Majestik...Thanks for the links! smile
Oh noes! I could totally see the blonde girl doing that and I think I would die laughing. I'm not ready to die!!!! lol


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: MNSI didn't mean to come off rudely, I was just rather perplexed by your comment... where exactly were you reading?

Nietzsche wink I did ask for advice on the subject.


Originally Posted By: PeleHe wants to end the war. War is an excellent money maker, and reputation builder. It creates this whole aura of strength, might and illicits fear. What do we have if we lose that? Less money and more scrutiny. Oh look..let's bomb them instead of looking at how I run my state!

Pele, I think you mean Obama wants to end the war in Iraq. Mainly because it has little to do with ending terrorise. On the other hand, I think he is in favour of increasing troops in Afghanistan, where the real war on terrorism is being fought.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

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Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
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Posted:Originally Posted By: Stone On the other hand, I think he is in favour of increasing troops in Afghanistan, where the real war on terrorism is being fought.

dont forget afghanistan is also the largest producer of poppies that are used to make heroin.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Stone, the war is actually in Iraq.

Afghanistan is listed as a police action and wasn't elevated to war status.

No joke, and I suspect you're right.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:That interesting Pele, I was just repeating what I heard in the media. I was under the impression the war in Afghanistan was a NATO operation.


Majestik, for sure they produce a lot of opium in Afghanistan, its how they pay for their weapons. I remember Obama saying, just after he was elected, that he would encourage the tribes people to grow other crops, but thats been tried before and has not been successful. Apparently, there is 3 or 4 years harvest in storage, so even if they stopped growing poppies it would take a while before their supplies ran out. The down side of this is that the price of opium is decreasing, and will lead to a flood of cheap heroin.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: Pele Hi Stout! It's a good philosophy really. Makes sense. How's it working for you? lol


It's working great, this year I figure I can get a 40' TV just from the money I saved actually working rather than tapping away on a keyboard. Woot, I can finally replace that 12' black and white unit I've been watching since 1976. laugh3

Ummm yea, the name, lol, I'm sure more than a few jokes have been cracked over that. When I look through the photo and videos of the big rally, I'm noticing it's as white as a Nascar rally however the only commentary I've seen regarding these guys being racially motivated has come from the far left, which is rather typical. IMO they're really after the right's bogeyman.....socialism, which somehow, equates with Communism and all the negative imagery of standing in a line. in a blizzard, wearing shoes made of newspaper and hoping to get "your share" of the loaf of bread that's being meted out crumb by crumb.

No Obama=Chairman Mao signs though, one would figure that if being anti-Communist is the goal, they'd make that comparison rather than one with Hitler. Maybe they don't know about him ?

Close Gitmo? yea sure, but what about the "other" prisons ? Sure Gitmo gets all the press however there's other sinister prisons out there where "enhanced interrogation" is carried out on a contract basis.

I side the idea it's all about money and control and also about that traditional American value, self reliance. I don't know why people are willing to take the risks with health care though. It's my understanding that the "average" uninsured American is only one heart attack away from bankruptcy. Here, in BC, if you decline to pay into the provincial health care fund yet end up hospitalised, then you'll still get treated however the government *may* try to sue you for three years of back premiums...about 2 grand. A financial burden to the working poor, for sure, but nobody ever went bankrupt over 2 grand.

If you're on welfare, health care is completely free, as is dental.


Quote: Ah...Full Quiver.
*choke*
Scary aren't they?
You've nailed it...except they don't send their girls away. Girls are to remain in the home, with long hair and in dresses. Men are to go into politics.
They use the bible as their shield because they do believe that go forth and procreate brings them closer to God, but they have quoted the same bible verses that the neo-nazi's have, that conservatives have, to support their "White makes right" ideals. Racial purity is part of religious conservation to them. It's all one and the same, not viewed of as seperate at all.


Wow..Hey, anybody remember Patriarch917? I discussed this issue with him, and he admitted that there is a problem in his community that had led to split and formation of a separate congregation over the issue and his stance was that the bible wasn't racist, that concept was developed long after the bible was penned.

Based on that conversation, I'm only willing to accept that racism *could* be an issue with these guys,but based on identity politics, rather than scripture.

No where did I read that quote...." it's a vagina, not a clown car" ..lol ?


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stone
However, Im left wondering if the superman/super race concept did not come from the continental philosophers, then where did it come from?



AFIK, the concept of race was introduced when "the new world" realised it need slave labour in order to be successful so the whole idea of "inferior" races was introduced as a marketing trick to sell the idea that "these aren't real people" to those colonies who were hesitant about importing forced labour.


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: MNSExistentialism is a part of continental philosophy... so is French Feminism and apparently the idea of otherness... if anything the dispelling of the super race concept has come out of continental philosophy. I didn't mean to come off rudely, I was just rather perplexed by your comment... where exactly were you reading?



Ah, I see you tried to slog through the same Wikipedia page I did, but then I remember why I hate philosophy.

Amazing, isn't it, how many people will spout out terms like fascism as a rhetorical device when they've never studied, nor experienced fascism IRL.

This word, like many others, is loosing it's impact


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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:He's found the ubermensche theory.

And stone, you forget that to these people Communist/facist are the same, so that means they should go for the most horrific example they can find.

Mao did too good of a job of cleaning up after himself... nobody is really 100% sure if he was evil or good, Hitler however was exposed very well and is the most identifiable example of facism(and therefore communism) that there is.

I'd say you're right about identity politics... for a number of individuals race relations may come into it, but for the entire movement it'd be about general othering... "he's not a Christian, he's a muslim"


EDIT: I would engage in this conversation a little more... but I suspect the party I go to this saturday will be saturated with people such as those displayed in the video and I may get to experience it for myself a little more. *facepalm*

EDITED_BY: Mother_Natures_Son (1253285741)


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:"Fashionism" is de new slang word for it wink

There is no more war in Iraq... and Afghanistan either. Riiiiight... Now tell that to the Iraqi and Afghan settlers getting cought in the middle of Hellfire missiles and roadside bombs... shrug

The US seems to have slipped from their "war against drugs" (interrupted by 911) to a "war against terror", sorting their (oil) interests in Iraq and now even find themselves supporting the drug cartel in Afghanistan... it would be ironic, if it wouldn't be so cynical.

Though the easiest job always is "to criticize others", Obama can't be coined "a great leader"... yet. He would make Karzai cut his ties with the poppy farmers and pull out more swiftly than pouring more troops in (and the national health care bill hasn't passed so far either).

The US doesn't need another lecture in patriotism - IMHO - it needs a rather urgent colloquium on history and its own world politics. If he would have gone like that in his speech - a lot of international recognition and reward would have poured upon him - but sure it wouldn't have made him look better at home...

(((Awwww. Patriarch917... epic discussions with this fellow... bright smile btw anyone seen OWD recently?)))

Though it might get me on the scanner wink - Bin Laden recently criticized Obama, claiming that he is "failing to fundamentally change foreign policy because of his decision to retain key figures from the previous administration, including Defence Secretary Robert Gates" and that al-Quaeda will continue its campaign as long as there are (US) troops in Afghanistan.

We're slipping off topic, but I strongly believe the international community should train local police and military as fast as possible and pull out of there.

At the same time the US should TRULY look into atrocities:

Originally Posted By: the new yorkerTwo years ago, at Abu Ghraib prison, outside Baghdad, an Iraqi prisoner in Swanners custody, Manadel al-Jamadi, died during an interrogation. His head had been covered with a plastic bag, and he was shackled in a crucifixion-like pose that inhibited his ability to breathe; according to forensic pathologists who have examined the case, he asphyxiated. In a subsequent internal investigation, United States government authorities classified Jamadis death as a homicide, meaning that it resulted from unnatural causes. Swanner has not been charged with a crime and continues to work for the agency.

and a few other cases...

Patriotism sometimes can be healthy and help a nation to sail through rough times, but it would be better off not forget the consciousness and memory of families and friends of those wrongfully killed in the process.

Wouldn't it be more useful to reflect on its mistakes and try to correct them where possible? Patriotism based on reconciliation and generosity makes it walk tall... based on ignorance it makes it just sneak around the corner like a hypocrite (at least in the eye of those suffering from the effects)... the civilian body count since 911 is preposterous... it's stirring more and more hatred towards the US and the West (disaster waiting to happen)...

(sidenote in reference to Originally Posted By: MNSMao did too good of a job of cleaning up after himself... nobody is really 100% sure if he was evil or good Mao... definitely is one of 20st century mass murderers initiating the murder of ~ 30m pop.)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Tom, please read what I wrote.

I said there IS a war in Iraq.

A "Police Action", which is a power driven movement sanctioned by NATO involving strong arm countries acting as police to uphold NATO laws/rules/sanctions, is not considered a war though the tactics of it are extremely similar. This is what's going on in Afghanistan.

The war on drugs Tom, really? That focus was over long before 9/11 and turned to oil long before. That's a completely antiquated excuse, since the late 80's early 90's in fact. We'd have larger fish to fry in South America than Afghanistan.

And the US is looking into other such atrocities, which is why that article made it into the New Yorker, and was also on CNN and Newsweek and....months and months ago, which follow up articles since. If the US didn't want to look into things, they would keep it quiet, as they have so many things so oft before.
Obama actually stopping the journalism hush has done amazing things for accountability.

Stout, I agree with all you are saying. Hilter is the easy one to pull up. The very name creates a knee jerk reaction globally. He's a figurehead of control and hate that everyone recognizes on a big ole sign. Hold a up sign or say Mao and most Americans will go "Who?"
(which brings me back to the complete lack and fault in the education system...see Tom? We're on topic! wink tongue2 )

What gets me is that people are calling Obama a new Hilter BUT then Neo-Nazi's and the like are marching against him right along with people who are holding placards calling him Hitler. That proves two things...they aren't unified and they are contradictory, idiots.

I actually agree with you on the health care resistance thing. We're losing Dr's left and right in this country because having a private practice is soooo expensive, more and more are retiring/folding/going to research. This has put more pressure on the ones left, so they are burning out. It's a horrible cascade. There've been more and more articles in the past year about the Dr. shortage. It's *really* hard to find a dr accepting new patients, let alone a good dr.
Nationalized will help with that a bit.

"One heart attack away from bankruptsy." No truer words have been typed.
My accident cost almost half a million dollars in medical expenses alone. $407,356.42 to be exact. When you look at the bill, a single pain killer pill was listed as $4. I can go buy a bottle of the same thing, 50 pills for $3. It's unreal and you are sooooo right.
Of course, the proposal has issues. They always do. And I am sure there will be unforeseen snags that need to be worked out once it is implements but it's got to be better than people avoiding proper care because they can't afford it.

I had forgotten about Patriarch, but that view point for him makes sense.

Whiter than NASCAR, niiiiice. lol True too. I agree with your statement about identity politics, not scripture but let's face it, these are also the people who think Jesus was blue eyed and blonde haired, and will argue any logic to the contrary down.

At least Full Quiver have a (misguided imo) goal and care for their kids. Clown Car mom is just disgusting to me, but that's beside the point wink lol


EDITED_BY: Pele (1253315187)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Pele, not saying that there is no (more) war in Iraq - but claiming that there has been and still is a war going on in Afghanistan. Whatever label is put on the individual operation is none of my concern.

Considerable amounts of civilians are getting killed in these conflicts and what I was trying to point out was that the US came down from its war against drugs (in South America) to now supporting the drug cartel (by supporting Karzai). And it is this very cartel that might even be using Taliban militia to transport and protect the dough.

shrug

Whether or not the media is looking into atrocities is insubstantial.... unless there is censorship. Whether or not the government is taking action against the accused and pursues investigations - that is important. Do those kidnapped from other countries (including the EU), wrongfully incarcerated at Guantanamo bay also get paid off like US American inmates? These are the question of concern.

I thought Bush got called "the new Hitler"... maybe this title now is part of the US presidential heritage... comes with the oval office? umm wink

Now I'm trying to discern and not hold every US citizen accountable for their government actions but I feel that for ages they fall prey to a nationalist propaganda, keeping their horizons narrow (at least in terms of global issues). "Othering"

"We are such a great nation" (on what grounds ever) "and subsequently we should rule the world" - well the same is dun in many systems around the globe and at some stage it is another catastrophe waiting to happen...

at least on a local and personal level.... like anti-Indian violence in Australia .... stupidity is contagious and racial issues show that people still have not realized that it is neither about the color of skin, nor of that of their passports...

A ... colored president of the US is setting a sign, only if he's not hitting the same nails as his predecessors.

smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:I was wholly unsurprised that Tom started this thread. but it looks like I'm a little late to the game

it's also nice to know thing don't change around here

and Tom, we don't say "coloured" any more. considered racist and all that

EDITED_BY: faithinfire (1257959751)


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted:Once again, Pele comes in as the voice of reason, so I'm not going to try to elaborate on what's already been said.

My only commentary here would be that until you have lived in the US and had experience with the every day life, then stop making assumptions on things that you only get information from in the media. Basically, just STFU!!!

This will be my only post in this thread...I am sick to death of crap like this spewed from the minds of hate!

EDITED_BY: Bek66 (1258031859)


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:I'm a member of the Libertarian party for good reason myself and wish I could be proud of my country and not see her as a shady hypocritic flock of sheep. I'm kind of shocked at the media coverage and all that some of you non-U.S. citizens are giving too much credibility and I'm actually shocked at the word "colored" being used considering that was racist since the civil rights movement of the 60s. Obama's problem is the conservative pressure is preventing him from doing what needs to be done in a timely manner and is hindering good decision making because he is afraid of the reaction from the right wing extremist followers, opinion polls, midterm elections. He was given quite a mess to clean up along with much adversity, I'm sure his job is at least 4 times harder than he anticipated due to media coverage and social pressures.

Our country is a messed up, hard place to live because where the focus needs to be is ignored because it's not good controversial TV so it's not fueling the economy. The news is anything but balanced and the important issues of taking care of our own people and getting America to be what the founding fathers intended comes in second to political parties, special interests groups, lobbyists, and the international stock market. While there are many of us here that find it sickening that people buy into such propaganda like this "indoctronation" crap which is just a lie by the conservatives to instruct the children to fear and hate their president as much as their parents do, I can't believe that the international communities believe any of this ignorant talk produced by dumb hicks with too much money and crazy bible thumping extremists who don't know the definition of communism.

Pele has a pretty good grasp on all of this, I just want to remind all of you guys overseas that America is far more than just Democrats and Republicans, we have a very diverse country and most of us 3rd party members (libertarians, independents, green, etc.) will never be heard by a mainstream media outlets and are the most appalled at what is happening in our own backyard because it's just an embarrassment. I don't know how non-issues become so prevalent, but I wish it were just another passing trend.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNovicePele has a pretty good grasp on all of this, I just want to remind all of you guys overseas that America is far more than just Democrats and Republicans, we have a very diverse country and most of us 3rd party members (libertarians, independents, green, etc.) will never be heard by a mainstream media outlets and are the most appalled at what is happening in our own backyard because it's just an embarrassment. I don't know how non-issues become so prevalent, but I wish it were just another passing trend.

out of curiosity, what percentage is made up of 3rd party members? and i suppose does the US democratic system mean that if the person you voted for doesnt get enough they then direct on those votes to another candidate?


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:preferential voting?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:thats the term smile

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: Bek66My only commentary here would be that until you have lived in the US and had experience with the every day life, then stop making assumptions on things that you only get information from in the media. Basically, just STFU!!!

This will be my only post in this thread...I am sick to death of crap like this spewed from the minds of hate!

My initial comment to this post has been somewhere along the line of "shove it" and "where sun never shines" but then reconsidered, as the tirades exactly prove my point.

The US (by large) is not an outstanding example in "educational brainwash"... many of the countries I got a chance to visit - and spend considerable time in... (* btw I visited and spent considerable time in Detroit, New York, L.A., Boston, Miami, Phoenix, Tucson and a few minor places along East and West Coast - and myself been witness to the Rodney King Riots, Ma'm)... many countries use this way of indoctrination.

It usually works quite well, as everybody wants to live in good faith - especially with their own government... it makes the day much more easy and one doesn't feel the need to research into the "facts" stated for - say - starting a war against another nation.

"WoMD" - rings a bell? It should, as the casualties resulting from your (ex)President lying to your nation seems to cross the mark of 100.000 now.

I recall a time where it was all: "Trust your (republican) government!"...

Originally Posted By: EONWhile there are many of us here that find it sickening that people buy into such propaganda like this "indoctronation" crap which is just a lie by the conservatives to instruct the children to fear and hate their president as much as their parents do, I can't believe that the international communities believe any of this ignorant talk produced by dumb hicks with too much money and crazy bible thumping extremists who don't know the definition of communism.

Your opinion honored, but "indoctrination" didn't start with Obama - and you might have missed my point entirely (as the others)... if the USsians - for once - would be ready to admit that their voting and (grossly speaking) their economical system is "a messed up, hard place [for humans] to live" and not take it so fr1cking personal (cause it's not meant as such) - the world might slowly start shifting into the right direction.

Freaking out when facing criticism and coining everything as (hate)speeches that doesn't fit your picture is just following the government doctrines (whoever sits in that throne).


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mr Majestikout of curiosity, what percentage is made up of 3rd party members? and i suppose does the US democratic system mean that if the person you voted for doesnt get enough they then direct on those votes to another candidate?

Well, America isn't a democracy for one thing, we are a republic. The elections are done in the form of an electoral college. How that is supposed to work are the people cast their votes which are separated into districts on the state level. It all begins by the majority vote of the districts win the state and then the state will be given points by the electoral college and at the end of the night whoever what the most electoral points (regardless of party) wins the election. The popular vote has nothing to do with it and that's why Al Gore didn't make it we had to put up with Bush due to a technicality that the supreme court upheld because they didn't want to elect the president regardless of what the people wanted.

I'm a member of the 3rd largest party the Libertarian Party and this is their official site http://www.lp.org/
(if you browse around there you can kinda see how different our ideals are and how we have a different approach at keeping order). There are many Americans who are registered as Independent and will pick who they think is best and we have smaller parties like the Reform, Green, and Constitution parties as well. I think about 1/3 of the country falls under independent/3rd party voting under the registration stats but since we don't vote for the same thing it dwindles down the numbers a lot for federal level elections.

On an optimistic note Independents and Libertarians hold important roles on the state and local level of government in several states and they have a few positions in the House of Representatives and Senate.

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1258125031)


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom
Your opinion honored, but "indoctrination" didn't start with Obama - and you might have missed my point entirely (as the others)... if the USsians - for once - would be ready to admit that their voting and (grossly speaking) their economical system is "a messed up, hard place [for humans] to live" and not take it so fr1cking personal (cause it's not meant as such) - the world might slowly start shifting into the right direction.

Freaking out when facing criticism and coining everything as (hate)speeches that doesn't fit your picture is just following the government doctrines (whoever sits in that throne).

Oh I know that, I may not have been alive but I can do some Nixon ranting!!!LOL

I just think that things here are really complicated and the rest of the world doesn't understand how hard it would be with the lobbying, agendas, and pissing contests to get anything in order. On top of that Americans are complacent, discouraged, doing everything they can to not have their houses repossessed and fight losing battles everyday with a system that works against them. The only thing I can tell you is that what you would like to see from America and I would like to see from her as well cannot happen with Democrats or Republicans in control, but our regular citizens aren't independent enough of thinkers to shift the power balance because they are not educated enough to pass a civics test. They are literally ignorant in our country's history and their part in her rule book, makes me fortunate for my education.

EDITED_BY: EpitomeOfNovice (1258124793)


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Actually, the US is a democracy by definition as the government is elected by the people in a free system. The CIA refers to it as a Constitution-based federal republic; [with a] strong democratic tradition.

US Election in Australian English or British English

Sorry Tom, I could look for German but could end up with how to mate pigs or something equally off topic wink


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:thanks Rougie... wink

EON: And thanks to you too, for keeping up a reasonable discourse.

I feel quite misunderstood, but that's in the nature of an online discussion... and I'm getting quite used to it. meditate

I'm not condemning the US as a whole, neither its citizens. There are some major flaws in the system and I'm putting my finger where it seems to hurt most. I have no problems in doing that with my own country...

Germany by far is not perfect, neither is the EU. Maybe it's that they don't stick their heads out to the same extent. Maybe it's because Europe has learned a few lessons in its extremely bloody history... putting the world at the edge quite e few times.

If the US aims to police other countries, it should live up to their own principles of democracy and freedom FIRST. As you lead best by example, no?

Let me ask you a question: how often would you usually have to sing the national anthem in an ordinary year at school (starting from elementary to University)?

Let me tell you one thing: to my knowledge in Germany they wouldn't have to sing it even once.

shrug

Maybe I shall make a list of things that I love about the US... just to show that I'm hatred is none of my motifs... At some stage I even considered migrating, I got married in Cayucos, CA... guys there is a big difference between "hate" and "criticism"... I hope your (loving) relationships do reflect that fact. It's more like Bert Brecht put it: if the boat leans to the far right - naturally I lean more to the left.... wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: Rouge DragonActually, the US is a democracy by definition as the government is elected by the people in a free system.

No it is not, there are too many technicalities preventing that from being an honest statement. I'm an American, who has taken American History, Government, and Civics up to the collegiate level and almost every educated American knows that we are a Republic. The government is not elected by the people in a free system, that decision is up to the electoral college not the voters and there are loopholes. Who can vote, the popular vote, registration technicalities are all irrelevant when it's up to the Electoral College, the required stats they are allowed to call their district with, and how the end tally is compiled.

Quote:The CIA refers to it as a Constitution-based federal republic; [with a] strong democratic tradition.

That is a textbook definition^^^

Quote:US Election in Australian English or British English

The BBC site called it a Republic appropriately, but I'd suggest taking a US Government course to really know all the ins and outs because both of these explanations of the election procedures here are very brief and leaving out much detailed information.

Just trying to clear up some misinformation.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

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