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jj89


jj89

Enthusiast of Grasping-Poi-Most-Generally


Total posts: 6
Posted:this topic is about the families of movement in the art of poi: what are they?

there are many experienced poi players in this forum, many know the characteristics of most of the types of moves. in order for you to help me I've restated the question of this topic in different ways:

how would you divide the art of poi in your mind? how do you divide it in the most general way? suppose you would want to create a lesson plan for a poi course, write a teaching book about poi or build a site with tutorials. which technique families would you divide your teaching to? what would be the chapters in your book? what are the DIFFERENT possible ideas in poi? when you play- how do you grasp your tricks? for an example: "I'm now spinning opposites" or "I'm gonna do some crossers".

think about it however you want, and most importantly- please post your personal opinion about how YOU grasp the art of poi in terms of elements, how do you organize poi playing in your head. you must have thought about this at some point as this is the heart of playing a skill toy and performing an art.

huge thanks!


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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:It's becoming more apparent that all there is can be described as follows:

Plane x relative motion

that is every combination of:

wall plane, wheel plane and floor plane

verses

every combination of
same time same direction, split time same direction, same time opposite direction, split time opposite direction

this makes up pretty much all 'normal moves' with the added scalar of applying this to your poi and arms, but I would just use it to describe the poi and put them all in the same category regardless of arm motion because while your arm direction may change, the moves share transitions and the same link to other moves of their type, they're completely modular.

in addition to normal moves there are like split plane moves and polyrhythms etc, but I feel as though a lot of that is just a subset of the larger groupings I've mentioned.


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jj89


jj89

Enthusiast of Grasping-Poi-Most-Generally


Total posts: 6
Posted:- can you explain some more about what you mean?
you're saying that the moves are grouped by their spin type, planes and the specific motion?

- could you give an example of how you group the different moves this way? especially moves which can fall in all categories (like stalls and turns), very varied moves (like contacts & throws), and moves that can be applied as variations of other moves (like isolations & lock-outs)?


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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:ok so like say the poi are:

wall plane x same direction split time

That's a group of moves and I can move through them seamlessly:

waist reels, shoulder reels crossers, windmill, weaves on the side of my body, airwraps, flowers etc, because they're all on the same planes and the poi are going the same way... from there I can do different patterns by my arm motions and the distance between the poi, but they're always doing basically the same thing.


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Everything can be broken up into Split time, same time, butterfly, same direction, driving style(isolation, extention, normal spin) and the relationship of the poi to one another (prospin/antispin(does this also come under driving style for those more familiar with the term than I?))

Anything that is a hallmark of a movement that can't be said of any other movement is what I would say classifies something as being part of a "family"

Weaves for example, theres the twisting and untwisting that your hands or your poi do in order to complete the motion.

This rule of thumb can really only apply to the basics however... since "Hybrids" would be considered a family of their own, but by their definition are all easily classified by directionality, driving style, etc.

I think there are a few different threads kicking about with other peoples opinions including some of the more experienced poisters.

If you want my own thoughts then, simply because i'm lazy I'll refer you onto the poi terminology page in the learn section. ^_^


hug

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jj89


jj89

Enthusiast of Grasping-Poi-Most-Generally


Total posts: 6
Posted:thanks guys,
most moves are indeed interchangeable when thinking the way Lye suggested. but some are still hard to classify- all the transfers.

@ Mother_Natures_Son: I'd say arm-movement are included in the driving style as they're the repositioning of the center of spin= the driving of it. so a weave is a driving style as much as an antispin in that manner. the driving style idea is excellent though and that's what defines a family within the "plane X relative spin" form.


this way we'll have 3 characteristics in defining poi spinning moves (contact and throws would be a separate family in 3. Iguess):

1. their relative spin
how the poi relate to _each other_:

same/split time same/opposite direction and others.

2. their planes
how the poi relate to _your body_ and the gravitational force. we define the planes, as our head would always be considered as "up" even if there was no gravity:

wheel/buzzsaw/wall/horizontal etc. I really prefer the terms side/middle(buzzsaw)/front/top(?)/diagonals etc. because they relate to you body and are more simple than the geometrical terms.

3. their spin center manipulation type
in which way in relation to the body and planes are you moving the center of spin. that's where move families really kick in:

butterflies- centers are close, flowers, weaves- crossing the centers between planes, isolations- obviously a center manipulation, lock-outs- spreading centers in the middle of the move, tangles- spin centers are moved in a way that creates collisions, although plane selection actually explains it but you don't think of it as something you do in a new plane, and more.


=> now the question is which spin-center-manipulations are there!

* the order is this because it goes from the most general to the least- I's say you first choose the spin type and then play between planes, although you can go the other way, but choosing the plane and changing spins is less smooth. you can argue about that I guess.

=> also- is there anyone else out who think _this_ way when playing or with _more/other_ theories?
your contribution is greatly appreciated!


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Hmmm.... After getting involved in discussion on what hybrids are, I am not so sure about driving styles. At the least, I am not convinced that they are defined rigourously enough to be useful.

I tend to think of things in terms of timing and direction and whether they are doing the same thing in time or not.

Or at least that is how I most recently think of it.

My "lesson plan" so to speak, is very different, starting with the 8 timings and directions, then starting to play with where those are around your body. Or at least how they relate to being around your body.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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jj89


jj89

Enthusiast of Grasping-Poi-Most-Generally


Total posts: 6
Posted:where can I find out more about 8 directions and timings theory?
I've found a wonderful 9-Square Theory just recently uploaded on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/charlicopter
br>
are there more comprehensive theories like that? it's covers a ton of movement possibilities!


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Lye


Lye

Fate Keeps Telling Me To Stop


Total posts: 270
Posted:Originally Posted By: jj89are there more comprehensive theories like that? it's covers a ton of movement possibilities!

Buy encyclopoidia 2


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Well, you have forward and backward directions.

But you have two poi, so you can have two forward, two backward.

You can also have one forward, one backward. Then you have the other forward, the other backward.

So four direction combinations. [edit for clarity: That is of course relative to yourself, as Alien pointed out lower down.]

Then as major timing modes (forgetting stuff like quarter time and polyrhythm [edit: not doing much polyrhythm, I am not sure that it really counts as a timing mode for me. This is very subject to change] for now) you get two major timings: split- (or follow-) and same-time. Which means 8 major combinations that are useful when starting out.

Once you start adding in the timings I ignored, such as quarter time, the possibilities get more interesting, and there are more of them.

I think that that sums it up. Basically, in teaching, I start off with this and with planes.

EDITED_BY: aston (1258713588)
EDIT_REASON: some points AlienJon made


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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jj89


jj89

Enthusiast of Grasping-Poi-Most-Generally


Total posts: 6
Posted:aston, how do you grasp the planes? how would you teach 'em?

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Hmmm....

Just that you can think of yourself in a cube. So you have a plane parallel to your centre line of symmetry (that is, forwards and backwards), on either side of you. Then that there are two perpendicular to that, one parallel to the floor and one parallel to your arms if you stretch them straight out to the sides.

It helps to relate the planes to one's body, similar to the image that has cropped up a few times on here (person with three planes through them, forget where I saw it last).


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:I think this is the thread I saw the image in.

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:That was it.

Sorry, had an exam this afternoon so could not go hunting for it. smile


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:Question every thing you think you understand...
A trick is just a move that you have polished a particular presentation of.
A move is just a pattern that you choose to commit to muscle memory as a base.
A pattern is a particular sequence of attributes over time, through space.
"Move Families" are Ven diagram collections of patterns that have certain attributes in common.
Attributes only exist in an individual's mind.
Minds seem to transmit information between each other (always with some noise in the signal, as stated by communication theory).


"Only from stillness does one have infinite possibilities" (0-point, no momentum from your local frame of reference).

Once you start to move you collapse infinite possibilities into finite ones that follow certain forms. By investing energy/momentum in a particular way, you impose limits on what you are doing. Limitations etch form out of no-form. Negative space defines form in space (so say the artists).

We have entered the realm of duality. A limit (boundary condition), can be a pole. A pole insinuates a corresponding reciprocal pole. Energy oscillates between 2 poles. An example would be to look at someone spinning a poi side on, perpendicular to the axis of rotation. You don't see a circle. You only see the poi oscillating between 2 poles (ie up/down), it is moving between its limits (boundary conditions). Just like a sine wave oscillates between 1 and -1.

Having 2 poles insinuates having a mid point. For example, cosine oscillates 1 -> 0 -> -1 -> 0 -> 1 -> repeat. 0 is the mid-point. In the case of rotation in a plane, just as your poi oscillations pass the mid-point (0) in one dimension, it reaches one of it's poles in the 2nd dimension.


The fundamental framework of 2 poles and a mid-point show up everywhere in poi:your poi has 2 ends and a mid-pointas insinuated above, rotation in a plane is comprised of vertical and horizontal oscillatory components, 90 (pi/2) out of phase.by adding oscillation in a 3rd dimension your poi crosses between 2 planes (as boundaries) through a middle reflective plane (the plane on which your cross-point falls). An example would be a figure-eight, where the oscillation in the 3rd D takes twice as long to complete a cycle. This is why a figure-eight hase "2 beats", one on each side, crossing back and forth through a cross-point (mid-plane).when comparing the phase relationship of a pair of rotating poi you have:in phase aka 0 (2pi) aka together-time180 out-of-phase (1pi) aka split-timemid-way between the 2 poles: 90 out of phase aka quarter-time, which has chirality: poi A could lead, or poi B could lead.When comparing the plane orientation of a pair of poi you have:0 differentiation between planes aka same-direction180 differentiation aka opposite-directionmid-way between those 2 poles: 90 differentiation aka perpendicular aka atomics. Of course atomics have chirality: there are 2 different 90 planar orientations given a particular direction of spin local to the plane.If you bound an atomic X in 2 planes 45 off of either 90 plane (45 is mid-way between 90 and 0) you insinuate another reflective mid-plane that bisects the atomic nexus and is also oriented mid-way between the perpendicular planes orientations (45). This can be used to related components of the atomic form to the corresponding parallel plane form (ie an aspect of an atomic move is like same-direction). Rotate this construct 90 to the other postion 45 off of the atomics and you can relate to the component of the atomic form that is like opposite-direction.You can relate the cycle timing of patterns using these ideas: Take a pair of poi doing pendulums.You can have them in-phase so that they pendal to the exact same place at the same time.You can phase-shift 180 so that they pendal to opposite parts of the pendulum path. You can phase-shift them 90 so they hit each end of the pendulum in an offset manner. Of course, offset has chirality, there is a version where poi A leads or poi B leads.together (0), apart (180), and offset (90) applies to may things:how each poi in a pair does a crosses over the cross-point can be together, apart, or offsethow the pair of poi spin in plane can be together (together-time), apart (split-time), and offset (quarter-time). This is simple for radial symmetry (same-direction). For mirror symmetry (opposite-direction) the timing only makes sense when taken with respect to something else, ie gravity, or a body axis.repeating stalls (up/down or left/right for example) can happen together, apart, or offset.more complex sequences can cycle together, apart, or offset (some of my CAP animations illustrate this)how you work with a partner in a pattern can also be together, part, or offset timings in a variety of ways

"Timing & Direction" are better thought of as "Phase & Symmetry" when we are focused on the geometric relations over time between the pair of poi.

When 2 things are rotate in the same direction (wile in parallel planes) they can be said to have radial symmetry. If they are together or apart the poi's angle of rotation will always be parallel each other. If they are offset then their angle of rotation will be perpendicular to each other, and there will be 2 possible chiralities.

When 2 things are rotate in opposite directions, they can be said to have mirror symmetry. There will be a mirror line that divides the relationship in half. The orientation of this line will be determined by the phase of the poi. You commonly have: vertical (same-time), horizontal (split-time), and diagonal (quarter-time). The diagonals have chirality: there is a left and right diagonal.

"Direction" is better at talking about how things are oriented to the human body, and how it senses it's surroundings. In this context, it is meaningful to talk about up, down, left right, back, front, forwards, reverse, clockwise, anti-clockwise, etc. You can orient your spin-plane to face the audience so that they see your poi rotating clockwise. However, you can move around your poi, cycling through your feelings of forward, clockwise, reverse, anti-clockwise, without changing the planar orientation to the audience. Therefore "Direction" is relative and dependent on frame of reference.

The way most people conceive of planes (the cube around you) can limit ones perception of what is going on. This is a nice point to bring the audience and gravity into it.

In a global reference frame (on earth and not in a micro-gravity situation), gravity is a constant, and a defining factor for how you perceive your bodies relationship to the world around you (yeah vestibular sense). Same goes for gravity and your poi. There are no such things as wall/wheel/floor planes. Gravity does a good job of defining 2 poles (again with the poles): vertical and horizontal plane orientation. Of course mid-way between is 45 aka diagonal. Any planar orientation to gravity can be defined as having vertical and horizontal components. This is analogous to how a vector can be defined by vertical and horizontal vector components, ala the good old right triangle (yeah Pythagoras). If you pay attention this will relate nicely to what you feel when spinning your poi with respect to gravity.

Beyond this we can define orientation to an "audience" in the global reference frame. This "audience" has a viewing ray, which is normal to (perpendicular to) it's viewing plane. Often times spinners want to align their poi planes with the viewing plane. There is of course another viewing plane perpendicular to the 1st viewing plane, that defines the range of angles from wich you could view the poi. Depending on where your onlookers are actually placed in 3D space, you make have a number of possible viewing planes to switch between, and you may choose to present whatever angle you want to whoever you want.

I put forward that "wall-plane", "wheel-plane", are actually just constructed from the relationship between vertically oriented poi planes, and the axes inherent in the human body. As was referenced earlier, anatomy defines coronal, sagittal, and transverse planes bisecting the body into ventral/dorsal (front/back), left/right, and head/tail. For poi I like to put transverse at the shoulders, dividing above the shoulders or bellow, since he shoulders are where the spinny things connect to the body. These planes can be combined to divide the space around the body into what we referred to as "zones around the body" in Encyclo-poi-dia 2 DVD.

Here is an illustration of why a simple understanding of wheel/wall plane isn't enough:
stand with a wide stance and feet planted, toes pointing at the audience. Spin a spiral wrap who's plane faces the audience, and happens to be parallel with your coronal plane. keep it going in that orientation while you twist your torso 90 degrees. What plane are you spinning in now? Now without untwisting your torso, tilt your hips 90 forward towards the audience, until the crown of your head is pointing at them... while still maintaining the spiral wraps. What plane are you in now? Untwist your torso, but keep your hips bent. The point is that relative to gravity and the audience, the spiral wrap has stayed the same, but your body orientation to it changes through positions that dictate your arms act like you are going from "wall" to "wheel" to "horizon".

Ok, I'm losing my attention span, but that is a glimpse at a model for defining poi as a network hierarchy of relationships. From that model, "patterns" are just configurations of attributes. Moves and move families are a matter of tagging patterns with certain names that can be defined by a particular set of attribute configurations. The important thing is that there can be overlapping tags, creating ven-diagrams. This is perhaps a more meaningful way to come at move families.


+Alien Jon

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Sister Eleven
GOLD Member since Aug 2009

Sister Eleven

owner of the group property
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1277
Posted:Ack! Must not be drawn into ontology debate! tongue2

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:Originally Posted By: Sister ElevenAck! Must not be drawn into ontology debate! tongue2

Well, I'm not asking to debate anyone, so perhaps you are resisting the urge to draw yourself into an ontological debat... with yourself?!

I suspect debate would be a little off topic here, since the original post asked about how each individual models move families for them selves. So unless you want to debate about whether someone is conveying truthfully how they model poi in their own mind, I think debate in this post is neither here nor there.


+Alien Jon

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jj89


jj89

Enthusiast of Grasping-Poi-Most-Generally


Total posts: 6
Posted:the poi art is simply moving the poi in our 3-dimentional space through the dimension of time.

that is what one attempts to do as he plays with his poi.
we draw in space with our poi.

according to what/how we grasp all the possible movements- how we divide and categorize space and the movement of the poi in it? that's my quest.
the options are endless therefore the categorization should be done via the elements all moves are made of.

here enters the question of "why to categorize?", why to understand what is possible? putting aside answers like "because of our brain" and "it's our control wanting nature", the answer is to be able to transfer this knowledge and most important- to be able to express ourselves through space with our poi however we need. that means to have a way of thinking about what is possible when we play.

this leads to thinking about how we understand poi while we play. when we actually quickly and consciously think about what we'll do next, we think in terms of what characteristics would I want to express. we think about what would we want to change.

would I want:
- to change the spin of the poi relative to each other?
- to change the plane relative to my body?
- to change the move in or between the planes?
these are the most practical aspect of our play.
they're the most immediate.
which spin, where and how!

and that's how I see poi and how I think it should be taught. you first master you poi, then space and then the options.

I'd like to hear your opinion about my way of seeing poi, and what does it lack!

also- what/ how do you think when you play?
when you think about a change- what parameters do you think about?
which parameters that can define moves do you think about?


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