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MynciBRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom


Posted:
Lord Stern has been quoted as saying we all need to go vegetarian to save the planet
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6891362.ece

some interesting points raised, as well as the fact that on the radio they were saying the average family dog produces the same carbon footprint as a small car - 0.8 metric tonnes per year due to the high meat and cereal diet dogs have.

Is this really a viable option? meat (essentially fish) is the main reason we have such highly developed brains, should we stop to save the planet or are there much better ways to go?

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
*wonders if she should ask permission before expressing her opinion* wink

I like that spin on it - the mentality rather than the practicality. Because mentality can be extended into other aspects of life and isn't restricted to diet alone.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
umm

Originally Posted By: Stonemany presidenst started as rebel leaders

"many"'s such a vague term that I cease to comment wink

Originally Posted By: Stoneeven make their own bio-diesel.

Originally Posted By: blog makezineBob Teixeira decided it was time to take a stand against U.S. dependence on foreign oil.

So last fall the Charlotte musician and guitar instructor spent $1,200 to convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He bought soybean oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, spending about 30 percent more than diesel would cost.

His reward, from a state that heavily promotes alternative fuels: a $1,000 fine last month for not paying motor fuel taxes.

He's been told to expect another $1,000 fine from the federal government.

And to legally use veggie oil, state officials told him, he would have to first post a $2,500 bond.

wink spread the word tongue2

Originally Posted By: StoneSo apart from the obvious negative impact of unbridled meat consumption on the environment, I'd say respect for humans beings starts by learning to respect all sentient beings.

ONE of my criticisms on "practical (western) Buddhists" is the continuous neglect and discrimination of plants... spank

Remember: If you decide to "go green" - don't trample! wink

Originally Posted By: JKVegetarianism because you respect other life forms and believe that they have just as much right to exist as we do on this planet.

*scratches head* if that was meant to be serious I would rather advise "fruitarianism" no plucking, no cutting - only picking up from the ground wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Fire Tom, no one if forcing you into this discussion. You have already said you don’t care what happens to the planet, so what’s with the faux arguments? More importantly, why are you trying to denigrate those who obviously have an enlightened understanding of what is going on in the real world?

I really don’t see the point to continue discussing your points because you really have to figure it out for your self. To that end, I have compiled a reading list, in which, I hope you will find the answers you seek.

The Garnaut Climate Change Review

Biodiesel production and use by farmers is it worth considering?

Biodiesel in australia - small scale production

What about plants?

The western Buddhist Conception of an Ecological Self

Vegetarianism - in Buddhist's eyes

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
Stone - your open approach continues to impress me smile

beerchug

J

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Stone:

Originally Posted By: StoneYou have already said you don’t care what happens to the planet

STOP putting words into my mouth spank or - at least quote me.

In lack of appropriate quotes, kindly admit that you (continue to) throw vast assumptions at me... (instantly forgiven - in the course of recent years I learned to handle your 'style' wink )

I said that "this planet is fine". I stand to it. You have (presented) NO arguments whatsoever to prove my statement wrong.

This planet is circling around the sun as it has done for billions of years and (most likely) will continue to do so a few billion years after mankind has been washed off or deserted it. We do NOT have the power to change that.

This planet has gone through a lot worse than us... Ice Ages, Meteor Showers, Continental Drifts to name a few... species got extinct... but to be precise the vast majority of them did. Climate has always changed.

As to the part where we - as a species - are contributing to the climate changing and whether or not we therefore are eradicating ourselves: there are a number of opposing opinions on the topic.

Climate change, hoax of the century - @ Infowars to give another angle (disclaimer: I'm not necessarily subscribing to this POV)

Biodiesel is far off topic, but okay: I got NO problem with it... only that it COULD be illegal (tax evasion) in some countries under certain circumstances. Hence my link. smile

Sentinence: plants DO have intelligence and feelings. You appear to deprive them and classify them as lower life forms... I see quite a number of people who have no problem with insecticides, pesticides, mono cultures - in the kingdom of PLANTS. Why? Because you can't hear them scream? Plants have been around for a substantial longer period than any "sentinent" being... You seem to lack of respect for this fact.

Sorry, I'm not subscribing to -isms of whatever kind. I am merely observing that quite a few people seem to have their own idea of who any of the great spiritual leaders of this planet were and what they actually said. Thus I also don't care too much for your passive aggression and denigration towards myself. Spiritual capitalism and elitism is quite common, always has been. I'm not going further on a spiritual debate with you as this.

I honor everybody who chooses awareness, but wouldn't go as far as calling them (or myself) having an "enlightened understanding of what is going on in the real world"... whatever you connect to the term "real"...

We have - in another thread - already made a ranked list of diets and figured which one of them has the least impact on the environment. Whether or not they are actually healthy is a completely different topic smile

However it got clear that - when it comes to completely "karma free food" the only way is 'fruitarianism'. Of that particular path only picking up what has already fallen to the ground can be considered absolutely "karma free"... btw devouring on already dismembered bodies of animals (or humans) could be considered "karma free" also... bit morbid but still - it's that...

Point is that I honor anyone's opinion and way of life - as long as they're not stepping on my feet, take away my habitat, tote their guns at/ threaten me or try to shove it down my throat or up the other end...

So: whatever makes you (a) happy (hippie) - be my guest.

I notice(d) myself condescending to people who don't practice or live "unaware", eat steaks or poke smot for breakfast already, ride the beach on a motorbike, guzzle fuel in SUV's, travel to space for chuckles or rub off on their guns...

Take it from me: it's just a reflection of inadequacies of "the self". (almost) Everytime I catch myself and ask: Tom, you seem not to be happy. Get a break, make a holiday or hug a tree for this sake... 'Cause ultimately it's my mind that creates this world and there's space for everyone... even for you wink hug peace

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Thanks Josh smile

Fire Tom, you might like to check out these docos when you get a chance:Planet Earth: The Future and Saving Planet Earth

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Originally Posted By: Fire TomSentinence: plants DO have intelligence and feelings. You appear to deprive them and classify them as lower life forms... I see quite a number of people who have no problem with insecticides, pesticides, mono cultures - in the kingdom of PLANTS. Why? Because you can't hear them scream? Plants have been around for a substantial longer period than any "sentinent" being... You seem to lack of respect for this fact.

Fire Tom if you could really hear the plants screaming then I think you would have a totally different outlook on global warming and the future of the planet.

The fact is that most of the plants we consume for food are annual plants. An annual plant is a plant that germinates, flowers, and dies in a year or season. Many food plants are annuals. This includes domesticated grains (wheat, rice, lentils, soy, navy beans etc), tubers (potatoes, carrots, swedes) and leafy vegetables like cabbages. So, the reality is that these plants aren't screaming is because they aren't being killed. But you do have a point, some plants are screaming.

The plants that are screaming are likely to be noble long-lived trees and plants from rainforests in places like the Amazon. They are screaming because they are being cut down at alarming rate to make way for cows that are turned into super-size-me hamburgers. The irony is the unnecessary decimation of the rainforests and the slaughter of cows accelerates global warming.

Now you have a nice day smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


hamamelisBRONZE Member
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)


Posted:
Potatoes, swedes and carrots aren't annual, they're biennial wink The roots of any tubers we eat would naturally survive and regrow- though still being the same plant- after a dormant period.

By the way, I could try and find a reference for this if you want, but I do recall reading that the rate of deforestation for soy plantations actually exceeded the rate of clearing for beef farming several years ago. Bit ironic really- eat tofu, destroy the rainforest?

Well, except for the fact that most of the soy produced is used as cheap high-protein animal feed.. wink

THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!


If that's okay with you?


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Fair enough, one year or two. You could wait for the carrots seed. I posted a reference on deforestation by soy plantations in the old vegetarian thread. Some of us move on. These days, as you noted, I’d suggest that the most of the soy produced in Brazil is used to feed animals kept in animal factories. In Japan most of the soy that is used in Tofu comes from America and Canada and not Brazil. This is due to quality issues. I suppose the bottom line here is to avoid eating meat and soy.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
wink I've seen it on ... *fill in any established and reputed television agency, like BBC, CNN, Animal Planet, Discovery Channel, National Geographic, Nikelodeon, MTV* ... thus it just GOT to be true... wink

I'm taking all reports from media as being biased to get their content sold... in whichever direction. Not saying that it's necessarily WRONG - only saying that it's that: populist propaganda....

THE PLANET (EARTH) IS FINE! More than once ALL trees and MOST animals have vanished from its surface... life has the tendency to rebound - maybe not in the shape that we are used to (and like so much at this point) BUT life is extremely... perennial. Only because there are TV shows that say: SAVE THE PLANET it doesn't mean that its necessarily the case...

Stone - thanks for the links provided hug thanks for trying to raise awareness... I really hope we have the chance to meet IRL one day beerchug

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Fire Tom, if you are taking all reports from the media as being biased because they charge for their products, then you problem is with the media, not climate change.

Or to put it aniother way, it's unreasonable to ignore the implications of climate change because you distrust the media. There are a number of people at HoP who will give you their first hand experiences on the implications of climate change.

I see your point about the plant surviving climate change, but if you don’t think we can kill the planet then you are dreaming. Anyhow, while technically a planet devoid of animals, trees, water, air and all forms of life is still a planet, but what’s the point? Better we look after the planet we have, and leave it in better condition when we depart than when we came. You never know, you might be “reborn” one day wink

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia


Posted:
aside from that Tom, I'm amazed that you can live in India where you come into contact with chronic human suffering due to poverty and not have any concern for the human suffering that is going to be (already has been) wreaked on low lying places like Bangladesh through climate change. Don't you care that millions of people are going to have their lives screwed up through this? I mean I can understand your argument about the inevitability of extinction (not that I agree with it), but to not care about all of the people who are going to suffer death and hardship from this, while living in an environment where death and suffering from poverty are a daily occurrence just seems inconsistent.

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Stone: Climate has been changing (significantly) throughout (human and planetary) history - what's the point? Which scale do you apply? 50 - 500 - 5.000 - 50.000 years? Worried about your comfortable lifestyle?

We can't kill the planet - and it's even unlikely that we will be able to kill all lifeforms on it (even if we'd try with all nuclear weaponry that we currently have at our disposal - however unlikely the event at all). If your perception of "life" is limited to that existing (and present) one on this planet, so be it... but it has little to do with "real(ity)"

Trying to leave a place better than you found it, is an honorable attempt (and my personal motto btw) - however you'll have to do a lot of sweeping up to turn the clock back before mankind fuddled with agriculture, cut down trees and domesticated animals ...

Rebirth is not a Buddhist concept is it? wink

Pyro: I don't claim to know the masterplan - personally I wouldn't settle in areas plagued with droughts, floods, poverty or oppressive regimes - which is why refugees usually find my full compassion (if these are their motifs).

I can't follow up on the inconsistency you're talking about.

Try to care for half a billion of people (officially living under the poverty line)... without becoming aware that the wealth of the 5% of India is directly built on it (and has been long before East India Companie has ever come to existence). So how to challenge it?

We're greatly getting offtopic right here and might derail another thread, but trying to solve mankind's problems by staying away from McD's alone is what I'd call "dreaming".

And suffering from the delusion that a veggie diet is preventing floods in Bangladesh or turning one into a better person (than another) will only result in separating us from each other even more, when most that we need right now is compassion and understanding... yesno?

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


OuchStaffBRONZE Member
journeyman
65 posts
Location: The netherlands


Posted:
I live in the Netherlands (pays bas in french wich means lower lands) because on averege we live below sea level. ie we're screwed if global warming causes the sea level to rise.

however we are getting reports that the water levels of alot of our streams and rivers are getting lower.
alot of people with house boats are having trouble with this problem

(the house boats are on the bed of the streams/ rivers)

Ouch o.O


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Fire Tom, significant is when something differs from what is normal. A one-in-a-thousand-year event, like in Cumbria, is significant. As too was the recent spring heat wave in Australia.

As to the comfortable lifestyle, fiddle away. You are the one having trouble coping with change.


Hi OuchStaff, our rivers are also getting lower, buts that because we are not getting the rainfall we have in the past. Much of this has to do with El Niño. However, sea-levels are rising as the Atarctic icesheet loses mass.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


JayKittyGOLD Member
Mission: Ignition
534 posts
Location: Central New Jersey, USA


Posted:
It's one thing to accept change, but just because you accept something does not mean you should be indefferent to it and not try and do your part.

Don't mind me, just passing through.


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Did I mention that I regularly plant trees, live on a 98% veg diet, am only driving a motorbike, do not need heating (tropical climate), install energy saving lights though my maximum electricity bills sum to a mere 15$/ month, conserve water where possible and am one of the very few separating trash and not burning plastic in my backyard?

I find myself confronted with a few misconceptions about "poverty" "save the planet" and "FireTom doesn"t care for the environment" wink

"Save the planet" is a slogan only - care for your environment and act locally without imposing your concepts on others... \

wink cool

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Jay Kitty, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Kübler-Ross change cycle, as in coping with change.


Just catching up:

Originally Posted By: Fire TomAnd suffering from the delusion that a veggie diet is preventing floods in Bangladesh or turning one into a better person (than another) will only result in separating us from each other even more, when most that we need right now is compassion and understanding... yesno?

Well almost Tom, acknowledging and taking ownership of the effect that "your” environmental foot print has on other societies is the first step in compassion and understanding.

From an Eastern perspective, we could say Karma, the law of moral causation, arises from Avidya.


Originally Posted By: Fire Tom..."FireTom doesn’t care for the environment”.

Judging from you hostile attitude and arguments against climate change, I don’t think it’s a misconception at all.


EDITED_BY: Stone (1259454198)
EDIT_REASON: clarity

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


OuchStaffBRONZE Member
journeyman
65 posts
Location: The netherlands


Posted:
It was a quote not something he means.

Ouch o.O


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
I know, and I was editing while you posted.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
The following story was taken from the Lancet medical journal as part of a series on climate change and health ahead of the Copenhagen global climate summit scheduled next month.

Eating 30 Percent Less Meat Good For Health, Planet

LONDON - Cutting meat production and consumption by 30 percent would help to reduce carbon emissions and improve health in the most meat-loving nations, scientists said on Wednesday.

Using prediction models, British and Australian researchers found that improving efficiency, increasing carbon capture and reducing fossil fuel dependence in farming would not be enough to meet emissions targets. But combining these steps with a 30 percent reduction in livestock production in major meat-producing nations and a similar cut in meat-eating, would lead to "substantial population health benefits" and cut emissions, they said.

The study found that in Britain, a 30 percent lower intake of animal-source saturated fat by adults would reduce the number of premature deaths from heart disease by some 17 percent -- equivalent to 18,000 premature deaths averted in one year. In Sao Paulo, Brazil, it could mean as many as 1,000 premature deaths averted in a year, they said.

According to the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization, 18 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions are from meat production and experts say rising demand for meat, particularly in countries with growing economies, could drive livestock production up by 85 percent from 2000 levels by 2030...


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Stone: there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path... wink

You color my arguments the way you like to hear them, not the way I mean them.

You have concepts and ideas about me and my way of life, continue to throw vast assumptions and judgments at me, when in reality you are only shooting in(to) the dark with your eyes closed.

Live up to your signature and act from compassion, love and understanding... and you might actually get somewhere smile

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Tom, I know you from the comments you make in these discussions, in particular your negative attitude towards environment issues like global warming and water conservation. So, I’m not making any assumption or shooting into the dark. I’m going on what you actually say. If you don’t mean what you say, then think before you post! So, judging from you previous negative attitude towards the environment, I find it incongruous that you should suddenly try an appear to be an “environmentalist” (having concern for the environmet). If you claim to care for the environment, then be an environmentalist and not an apologetic. As to my signature, I meditate every day. Meditation like most thinks in life takes practice.


EDITED_BY: Stone (1260059367)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
Just because someone has a different theory about how to help the environment doesn't mean that they're not concerned for the environment or an environmentalist. Especially with the varied countries that we live in, not all environments work in the same way and many people don't realise what is glaringly obvious for their own country/region/culture could actually be drastic for another and visa versa.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Preventing this to again turning into a boring one-on-one debate between Stone and me, I divide this post into two parts: one addressing him and one addressing directly the topic:

first on topic

No rocksolid evidence whatsoever has been presented by any human being so far that this planet indeed is in trouble. Planet Earth is circumnavigating its sun as it has for billions of years.

Even since the first lifeforms have emerged on its surface the planet went through serious catastrophes, sometimes wiping out most existing lifeforms on its surface.

More than 90% of all species that ever existed have vanished and Earth's climate has significantly changed over the course of the ages of its existence. Right now we're living in a comparably warm period.

No rocksolid evidence whatsoever has been presented that global warming will actually lead to the extinction of all lifeforms on the planet (including mankind). Sea levels have been significantly changing over the past and right now it is comparatively low.

My line of argument is not that you should eat meat, or that vegetarianism is a bad thing altogether. Hence I'm not an "environmentalist"... All kind of "-isms" repulse me as they are dogmatic, based upon the smallest common denominator and usually establish clichés which lead to "us vs. them". It's (IMNSHO) rubbish.

I said: The planet is fine. Mother Earth is not in trouble. I stand to it.

If you base your actions of water conservation, choice of diet and environmental protection out of worries for the planet *alone* then I perceive your horizon as extremely limited.

When looking at deserts you will notice one thing: the absence of water. Still there is an amazingly high amount of life there, waiting for a chance to sprout. When looking at life on this planet (and life in general) it proves one thing: it's amazingly persistent and flourishes in the most extreme conditions you can possibly imagine. Take the extreme conditions on ocean bottoms, near underwater volcanoes, in the absence of light, oxygen and other ingredients we as humans perceive as "vital" ingredients for the existence of life.

It's a quite limited perception to claim that life can only exist under the given circumstances and that any change would destroy the entire thing. This limitation is (ab)used to stir up emotions and worries to pursue particular goals. To boil it down here: IMHO it's about control (only). The more I worry, the easier I am to be controlled, because I'm not centered. The war against communism is followed by the war on terrorism and ultimately we will return to fight for resources (like water) and ideologies.

There is nothing wrong with caring for the environment. But it's far better to do it, because you enjoy living in a human body and have a moderate attachment to trees and birds, rather than clinging on to the idea that this (world) is the ultimate expression of existence.

This world has a due date and it can come any given moment in form of a meteorite (or another completely unpredictable catastrophe) or it can linger on for a few billion years more until the capacity of our sun has surpassed its peak, triggering a chain of events that no global diet is able to change.

Whether or not we'll be able to spot another planet with earthlike conditions and "seed" another human race (Ark) on it, is matter of speculation. Though I dearly enjoy it, I obviously feel less attached to the/this human form than others.

I save electricity and water wherever possible (and reasonable), separate garbage and try to avoid it wherever possible. My organic waste goes to cows or compost. I burn paper and what comes out of the garden to recycle it into the garden as we do not have a recycling plant here (not to mention garbage trucks) so I am forced to transport my plastic to the garbage dump at the next city, 20k's away. I don't burn it or dump it in the vicinity, like most of my neighbors in hope that one day they will establish such plant.

I frequently plant trees (this season so far alone I planted an almond tree, three palm trees, a hibiscus, two roses, one banana and two papaya - I intend to plant more before years end)... I don't haggle at nurseries in order to support their business.

I am not a vegetarian, but my diet is mostly meat-free. This is due to reasons beyond physical, as I can see my body negatively adapt to it (not ready to discuss it into detail here and now). I refrain from eating meat not because of an environmental approach but because of an ethical one: I dislike the way animals are farmed industrially.

I am not for people living out their ego trip and trying to sell it to me as charity. Trips to space or (global) concerts are not doing the trick (IMO). There is "poverty" here in India. Of course. A lot of it is "relative poverty", measured against western wealth and most of it is intentionally created and perpetuated by a system based on corruption and greed. By falling for the "pity game" of some organizations you change nothing. You only change something by actively going out there and doing something about it. (btw It's quite interesting to note how many beggars turn around on my doorstep when I offer them work...)

weavesmiley


Stone: I really don't give a [censored] what you think I should be(come), say or do and whether or not you're meditating 99% of your life. You seem to have casted a judgment against me a long time ago and remain ignorant to reason. You seem to fall for any kind of government/ media propaganda and trust more in their pamphlets than independent sources, subordinating to mainstream propaganda. You indulge in personal attacks, vast assumptions and populism... Maybe you meditate but you're not getting anywhere with it because you remain stuck in your mind. I challenged you to present evidence or disprove my claims with facts - you refuse and continue the same old boring cursing... If you hold personal grudges and want to sort it out I (again) ask you to use PM's and not drag it across all threads in which I don't agree with you. You're quite smart to always keep it below the level under which a mod would slap your wrist... Buddhism (IMO) is not the cure of all evils... it's my opinion and I stand to it. Take it from me (or not): you could as well make a nice career working for the RTA... It's funny (strange) that recently I met so amazingly sweet people from Brisbane when I confronted with someone who appears to be an obnoxious babbitt from Melbourne... when I lived in Oz it always seemed the other way round ... but times might have changed wink tongue2 wink hug peace <- fill in any soothing graemlin necessary

and watch:


EDITED_BY: FireTom (1260119815)
EDIT_REASON: life after people

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
Originally Posted By: tom
There is nothing wrong with caring for the environment. But it's far better to do it, because you enjoy living in a human body and have a moderate attachment to trees and birds, rather than clinging on to the idea that this (world) is the ultimate expression of existence.


That reminds me of my philosophy when it comes to the environment and all the political/social/everything stuff that's flying around:

Do the right thing because you believe that it's the RIGHT thing to do. Not because social pressures are forcing you to subscribe to the latest environmental religion.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Tom, the problem is about anthropogenic global warming or man-made global warming. Ok, that’s different to what happens naturally. If people don’t understand that then how are we going to stop that process. There are a vast amounts of scientific evidence to prove this, and they are freely available. But you have to take the time to read them. Anyhow, the debate has gone way past scientific papers. The poles and the glaciers are melting. Even the Chinese realise what going on, and are starting to tackle the issue. Many are hoping they will lead the way at Copenhagen this week.

China unveils plan to limit emissions.
Garnaut Climate Change Review
ABC Climate Change
Antarctic icesheet losing mass
Grizzlies, polar bears breeding because of climate
Tibetan glaciers rapidly melting.



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


hamamelisBRONZE Member
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)


Posted:

Non-Https Image Link


Sorry....

Couldn't resist...

THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!


If that's okay with you?


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Originally Posted By: FireTomNo rocksolid evidence whatsoever has been presented that global warming will actually lead to the extinction of all lifeforms on the planet (including mankind). Sea levels have been significantly changing over the past and right now it is comparatively low.

Nobody's making that argument.The one that is being made is that AGW is going to cause life to suck, and suck hard for a lot of people. It probably won't happen in our lifetimes, but id you come to know your grandchildren, they may have questions about why "your" generation did what they did, knowing what they know.

Of course it's possible the whole thing could blow over, but at this stage of the game it's not looking to likely. The whole planting trees thing has absolutely nothing to do with the threat posed by AGW. I know we've been down this road before, but planting trees only helps to offset the trees removed for "other" things, like clearing the rain forest to grow cows, for instance.

The AGW carbon is carbon that "we're" releasing into the environment that's bees sequestered for millions and millions of years and as such is 'new" carbon as far as the biosphere is concerned. During the last ice age, this carbon was happily sitting deep underground which does serve to show that climate change is a "natural" phenomena and is bound to happen again, but we appear to be accelerating that process and bringing on those changes faster that we'd like.

How's this for cynical? I proposed my own Internet law, Stout's Law. It stated..No matter what the forum, threads involving the participants disclosures of what lifestyle advantages they'd be willing to give up in order to reduce their carbon footprint will fall to the bottom of the page at freefall speed. I submitted this to Wikipedia only to be told that it's too obscure and "go market it someplace else, if you get a following, then maybe come back"

Those days of anyone writing anything they want on Wikipedia are long over.

Quote: IMHO it's about control (

Pretty much, yes. Around here, Hummers are no longer socially acceptable.

Quote:Trips to space or (global) concerts are not doing the trick (IMO).
No, they may serve to "raise awareness" but the do as I say, not as I do thing is so transparent as to be laughable and has probably created more climate change deniers than supporters. All Al Gore is doing is preaching to the converted.

Quote:and watch

Interesting series, I have a bunch of episodes recorded but it's a little shy on the disaster porn. I'm waiting for 2012, the movie, now there's some serious destruction.

StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Originally Posted By: Rouge DragonThat reminds me of my philosophy when it comes to the environment and all the political/social/everything stuff that's flying around:

Do the right thing because you believe that it's the RIGHT thing to do. Not because social pressures are forcing you to subscribe to the latest environmental religion.

Yes, but it all depends on what information you're basing those beliefs on and if you're willing to change those beliefs in view of new information. That the recent H1N1 freakshow, with the thimersol and squalene.

Many people were wiling to label the vaccine as a hazard due to the mercury content in it yet they were unwilling to give up eating fish to avoid getting a way higher dose of a more lethal form of mercury. ( methylmercury vs ethylmercury) Or get all worked up about "good" squalene" vs "bad" squalene all based on one article written by one quack whose trying to sell books and supplements ( Mercola ) oh yea, and then there's Blaylock.

So..what do you do ? Believe the vaccine is evil and advocate against people getting immunized in the face of what looked like it might have been a pandemic ? Sit on your hands and just keep quiet and avoid the vaccine yourself? Or..debunk and expose misinformation for what it is ?

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