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Forums > Social Discussion > Vegetarianism for climate change?

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Mynci
Mynci

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Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:Lord Stern has been quoted as saying we all need to go vegetarian to save the planet
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6891362.ece
br>
some interesting points raised, as well as the fact that on the radio they were saying the average family dog produces the same carbon footprint as a small car - 0.8 metric tonnes per year due to the high meat and cereal diet dogs have.

Is this really a viable option? meat (essentially fish) is the main reason we have such highly developed brains, should we stop to save the planet or are there much better ways to go?


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Rouge, if you are into practice change to get adoption of things like bike riding as an alternative to cars then check out:

Our Iceberg Is Melting by John Kotter
John Kotter on change
The Iceberg Manifesto

Old skool Bennett's Hierarchy to implement change, See Figure 4


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Stone: that was not what I meant either.

Present evidence that "PLANET EARTH" - not the environment on its surface - is in trouble... (and STOP to throw vast assumptions at me). FINALLY QUOTE where I've denied global warming or rising sea levels! :madrant:

Climate change is a fact (mankind contributing or not)... Rising seal levels too. Temperatures right now are quite warm (but not the highest in history) as sea levels are quite high (not highest in history)... Its rather about how we find ways to cope with change...

Melting glaciers are a topic for decades, as is the ice sheet. These are not new topics, THIS THREAD pointed out that if you'd to become a vegetarian, you may reduce your CO footprint and as such prevent climate from changing. I didn't deny that.

But it is an erroneous "feel good" approach. Your change of diet is not going to do the trick (alone) - planting trees isn't going to do it either (as Stout pointed out).

I resent to mere "feel good" approaches that (IMO) are rather breeding separation, than a unified approach - which is necessary to tackle global topics. Rather than saying "but I AM a vegetarian!" (thus "better than you carnivore") it is more about "hey this is my contribution and it's no less no more valid than yours"...

Thanks for demonstrating me "how to breed resentments to sound and valid arguments by filing personal attacks". You're quite good at that and I may have to learn some deal from it.

It's maybe as much about developing sustainable agricultural systems as it is about the distribution of wealth and food according to necessity rather than according to profit margins. But that would require a quite radical shift in (capitalist) philosophy. Which is not going to happen unless governments (and the general public) is holding CEO's directly accountable for the actions they decide (not) to take in their way of running business... it's not about "eco-terrorism" as it is about "eco-justice"... (IMHO)

And it's not about "being right/wrong" - it's about a wholesome approach, shedding lights on all aspects of the topic (without breeding resentments). I've just had enough of your populism and personalized attacks that bear any logic and are based upon selective reading and judgments casted a long time ago.

Woodland: thanks for enlightening me about the historical aspects. When I lived there I've been quite shocked over what appeared to be the general approach and attitude of Australians (and USsians btw) when it came to environmental issues.

It's difficult to hold people accountable for the actions of their (grand)parents... can you notice any generation-debate that's being addressed towards your elders for their actions?

"What are we going to say, if one day our grandchildren will come to ask us?" - heard that before and just can't see it happening, neither in ethical, environmental - hardly in personal issues.

I live in a country that comprises 20% of the global population and when transferring the predominant attitude towards the environment to that of other 3rd world (or emerging) countries, then I tell you that this climate conference is not going to yield ANY feasible results.

The developed nations can't bear all the payload, especially not when the developing nations sacrifice all useful regulations already established in favor of growth. Historical pollution yes/no - doesn't matter. We're exporting jobs and production and at the same rate our old technology. In these countries, plastic (at worst) is getting burnt in the backyard, toxins poured into water bodies and emission regulations are a joke. Pesticides and herbicides that are already prohibited in the West are being exported or manufactured and used here.

It's hard to get a good overview on what is really going on whilst taking pictures of the Taj Mahal, rather than living here. Industries need to be addressed - and the (in)direct damage they produce.

Because at some stage you can't clean up as much as is going to be polluted...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom
It's difficult to hold people accountable for the actions of their (grand)parents... can you notice any generation-debate that's being addressed towards your elders for their actions?

There is, for example the Coorong (the murray mouth) is pretty much dead, farms in WA in particular is facing huge salinity issues due to government land clearing practices 30 years ago, and water rights issues are rampant, but they are not really in the spotlight. For example with the coorong, just before summer, and the main tourist season, the gov. pumped a heap of water into it so it was the fullest its been in a decade. By doing so they completly drained lake alexandrena. They did this so that city day tripper wouldnt see the real issues at stake.

I dont think though that pointing the finger at past generations is going to solve anything, I dont think that people in the past were being delibrately harmful,but it is important to discover the reasons behind past attitudes to land so that we can finds means to address the reasons behind current land useage. Its not enough to just say "we are destroying the environment, fix it."

Another example of harmful worldviews is the attitude towards brumbies (wild horses) in the high country of NSW, they are creating incredible damage to the environment but we are not allowed to cull them. Some animal rights group caused a stink when they saw footage of arial shooting, so now shooting of these pest animals is banned. With trapping being the only recourse only 80 brumbies are brought out of the Kosciouzsko National Park a year. But the population is growing by 1000 a year.

how can we protect an area of over 6 million hectares when the current prevailing attitude of animal libiratarianism is defending the main causes of environmental degradaton and lack of biodiversity. This idea of "preservation" by certain lobbyists is contributing to the problem that they are trying to fix? So why? And why cant they see it?

I believe its the same with climate change issues. Why do some people think climate change is not an issue? Why do others believe its the only issue? instead of attacking the beliefs, lets discover the fundamental worldviews that create each beliefs. Lets not deal with what we think, but why we think it.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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Stone
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Posted:Originally Posted By: WoodlandAppleI believe its the same with climate change issues. Why do some people think climate change is not an issue? Why do others believe its the only issue? instead of attacking the beliefs, lets discover the fundamental worldviews that create each beliefs. Lets not deal with what we think, but why we think it.

I think you will find that the psychology of climate change has already been posted previously from a Report of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Psychology and Global Climate Change. Nevertheless, Ill post a couple of the points again.

Section 1: How do people understand the risks imposed by climate change?

Long-term climate is a phenomenon not easily detected by personal experience, yet one that invites personal observation and evaluation. Concern about adverse consequences of climate change (e.g., extreme weather events like droughts or floods) is low on average in places such as the United States, in part because small probability events tend to be underestimated in decisions based on personal experience, unless they have recently occurred, in which case they are vastly overestimated.

Many think of climate change risks (and thus of the benefits of mitigating them) as both considerably uncertain and as being mostly in the future and geographically distant, all factors that lead people to discount them. The costs of mitigation, on the other hand, will be incurred with certainty in the present or near future. Emotional reactions to climate change are likely to influence perceptions of risk. Yet, emotional reactions to climate change risks are likely to be conflicted and muted because climate change can be seen as a natural process, and global environmental systems perceived as beyond the control of individuals, communities,and, quite possibly, science and technology. There is, however, significant variability in peoples reactions to climate risks, much of which is mediated by cultural values and beliefs.

Section 5: Which psychological barriers limit climate change action?

Many psychological and social structural barriers stand in the way of behavioral changes that would help limit climate change. Many people are taking action in response to the risks of climate change, but many others are unaware of the problem, unsure of the facts or what to do, do not trust experts or believe their conclusions, think the problem is elsewhere, are fixed in their ways, believe that others should act, or believe that their actions will make no difference or are unimportant compared to those of others. They may be engaged in token actions or actions they believe are helpful but objectively are not. They have other worthy goals and aspirations that draw their time, effort, and resources, or they believe that solutions outside of human control will address the problem. Some or all of the structural barriers must be removed but this is not likely to be sufficient. Psychologists and other social scientists need to work on psychological barriers.

The link is from the psychology of climate change in Margot O'Neill's blog from ABC Lateline.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:Originally Posted By: TomI resent to mere "feel good" approaches that (IMO) are rather breeding separation, than a unified approach - which is necessary to tackle global topics. Rather than saying "but I AM a vegetarian!" (thus "better than you carnivore") it is more about "hey this is my contribution and it's no less no more valid than yours"...

Completely agree hug


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Stout
Stout

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Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneBTW, "climate change" is not some "ghostly enemy or threat", it's real and it's here. The poles and the glaciers are melting, pacific islands are flooding

Yes, and AGW is markedly different from all these other 'world ending scenarios" that we've had in the past. Now where's that list ? BRB. OK: acid rain, global thermonuclear destruction, Y2K, the hole in the ozone layer. overpopulation, and I'll toss in leaded gasoline, just for effect.

The difference being that all these issues didn't involve much in the way of lifestyle changes to combat and were basically "somebodyelse's problem that could be dealt with by, well bitching and moaning. As a consumer, all I needed to "do" to combat the hole in the ozone layer was quit spraying my armpits with Right Guard and switch to a solid ( or go all hippy and just stink ) easy peasy.

There's not much i could do personally about "the bomb" nor acid rain. All Y2K involved was stocking up on bottled water and junk food, and I'd never planned on having a brood of children, so there was no sacrifice there.

AGW OTOH, demands that WE, as consumers make the "right" choices. It's way past the usual fun stuff, like going to protests, signing petitions and banging out posts on the Internet. It's way past the "somebody should do something" phase and IMO the article on psychology and global climate change is well, awesome.

Originally Posted By: Tom I resent to mere "feel good" approaches that (IMO) are rather breeding separation, than a unified approach


Yes, I agree here but I'm rather cynical towards the idea that this won't always be the case. As I said before IRL (and IMO) the population of deniers is growing with faith being put into ideas like Copenhagen or HopenChangin if you're into memes. 140 private planes, 500 limos, caviar, and free hookers....all so we can listen to developing nations demand money.

BTW did anyone see the President of The Maldives on television two weeks ago accusing 'rich" countries of murder and genocide through their carbon emissions? The Maldives, whose entire economy is built on tourism, huge jets and resorts....


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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
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Posted:^^^The Maldives was nearly wiped out by the Tsunami - and so rising sea levels will probably be pretty much at the front of their minds...

Could someone provide an example of one of these "feel-good approaches"?

J


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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

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Posted:Originally Posted By: Pyrolific
Could someone provide an example of one of these "feel-good approaches"?


I have a sticker on my drink bottle that says:
"Keep Winter Cool, the snow seasons short enough as it is...Fight global Warming"


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:how 'bout these bumper stickers?


Non-Https Image Link


And there are a few more... how 'bout representatives of charity organizations flying first or business class, lodging 5* and the average dummy financing all this in order to polish their image and point their finger at others?

Stout: WE as consumers might be making "right" choices... but for every consumer in the West, there are 100 consumers in the East, who don't understand the impact their choices make. You NEED to live in some of these countries to understand exactly WHERE the change has to happen in order to yield a result. In this country MOST people are veg already...

BUT check here: http://www.indiatogether.org/environment/
br>
Stone: and where do you find me denying global warming? Finally quote me. On the bottom I'm posting some charts for an overview. Stop instigating and using me as your target only because I have a different view on HOW exactly to tackle the problem.

However, global warming and rising sea levels are not going to be the end of the world as we know it. Last time I checked the NASA website this planet was still circumnavigating the sun, the full moon reappears quite predictably, North is still on the top side of the map. THE PLANET is fine... the people are f***ed.

These psychological studies didn't result from counseling the upper management of EXXON, BP or Du Pont, did they? Or extracted from the G.W.B. files... wink

What Rouge is referring to when naming the global warming issue a "religion" is that for decades people have chosen to ignore the facts and turned deaf to scientific "prediction models". Now it's in front of (y)our very doorsteps. Address your governments, because in Germany I did along with many others and environmental protection levels are still amongst the highest on the planet... we sacrificed competitiveness and yielded unemployment and high prices as a reward. Because companies shifted their production to third wold countries... In the end Germany is now starting to regress, because people need jobs FIRST.

And really I start to believe that it's more about the gender-conflict... my girlfriend starts resenting to my reforestation efforts as "the energy flow gets blocked" and my water conservation attempt in the kitchen sink is abandoned due to "aesthetics"... shrug

wink



Non-Https Image Link


Non-Https Image Link


So neither higher temperatures, nor sea levels are going to put THIS PLANET in jeopardy... WE as a race will face a lot more... intimacy when (for example) the kaaskopp has to snuggle in with the muff and us mountaineers will need to come up with very sophisticated methods to live in harmony with all them lowlanders...

(PS all my posts need to be read with a certain kind of humor, somewhere between New Yorkian, Pommie and German)...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
Stout

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Posted:Quote:Stout: WE as consumers might be making "right" choices... but for every consumer in the West, there are 100 consumers in the East, who don't understand the impact their choices make. You NEED to live in some of these countries to understand exactly WHERE the change has to happen in order to yield a result. In this country MOST people are veg already...

I fully agree here and it's an issue I try to remain silent on by avoiding flinging accusations at developing nations. I do see it all the time though. What about India? What about China? why should "we" be forced to give up our lifestyles when "they" are poised to be worse.

I'm all up for the per capita carbon emissions though and as a Canadian I realise we're among the worst offenders however we seem to magically slip under everyone's radar, well the oil tar sands are getting some attention now.

Quote:THE PLANET is fine... the people are f***ed.

Agreed, not just the people though, most of the critters as well.

Quote:... my girlfriend starts resenting to my reforestation efforts as "the energy flow gets blocked

Now that's just plain weird. Everyone knows this is tres oldschool and that plants only block bad energy and the majority of species actually convert that bad energy into good energy and pass it on, much like the way they convert toxic CO2 into beneficial oxygen.


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Stone
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Posted:Hi Stout, glad you liked the article on psychology and global climate change. This one is simpler, but nevertheless insightful - Societys Grand Challenges. Insights from Psychological Science. Global Climate Change. Now you have a fun Asian adventure, y'hear.



Originally Posted By: Fire TomStone: and where do you find me denying global warming? Finally quote me. On the bottom I'm posting some charts for an overview. Stop instigating and using me as your target only because I have a different view on HOW exactly to tackle the problem.

However, global warming and rising sea levels are not going to be the end of the world as we know it. Last time I checked the NASA website this planet was still circumnavigating the sun, the full moon reappears quite predictably, North is still on the top side of the map. THE PLANET is fine... the people are f***ed.

Tom, you appear to be using the charts to deny global warming. If that's the case, then I find it difficult to understand how you are going to tackle the problem of global warming, if according to your EXXON charts, there is no problem. (I will admit that I am jumping to conclusions here, because I honestly have no idea what the charts are meant to mean: Sea leves falling, temperatures increasing? Temperature and sea levels are decreasing?) So, you can put up all the graphs you like, but they wont change whats happen in the real world. Take this NASA picture of the snow and ice melting on Kilimanjaro. The big difference here is that it's a real NASA photo. The scientists who actually measure climate change parameters are the ones who understand whats happen with the environment. And then there are the sceptics. Basically, desk jockeys who speculate about what happening, and produce pretty graphs to mislead people and sell books.

And Tom, Im not attacking you personally. Its just that the argument against Global Warming is absolute rubbish.


EDITED_BY: Stone (1260495191)
EDIT_REASON: calarity and accuracy


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
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Posted:Stone: FINALLY QUOTE ME WHERE I AM DENYING GLOBAL WARMING! umm unbelievable really...

What I have pointed out is that this planet had warmer (and much colder) periods in its history, water levels have been (significantly) higher - and yet continues its course steadily.

IMO we are contributing to a climate change on a very big scale. Some deny this - NOT ME. WE - as a species - gobble up the resources of this planet (IMO) is fact - but that in itself is nothing against nature (from observation). Species often continue to thrive until thresholds are surpassed and the natural resources they depend their livelihood on are running out. USUALLY natural selection kicks in before. Not so with humans who have the ability to quickly adapt to extreme circumstances and are opportunistic in nature.

The last environmental disaster - which lead to the extinction of dinosaurs - might have been the very opportunity for humans to arise... wow, how thrilling. Who would know, maybe MOTHER NATURE will come up with far more advanced organisms - after mankind vanished?

BACK ON TOPIC:

Originally Posted By: World environment newsThe scientists said global action was needed to maximize the benefits of cutting meat production and consumption, and that the environmental advantages "may apply only in those countries that currently have high production levels."

And who would guess that this affects China, Brazil and India? According to a HINDU-CNN survey, about 60% of the Indian population are non-veg... and this equals more then 600 million people... in India alone. Hello...

IMO "becoming veg" will not do the trick (alone)... it will contribute to a change - but a change that will take far too long to have the necessary short term effects. Vice versa, the gases created in meat production could be used for the generation of energy... THIS in itself doesn't mean that I do approve the life defying methods in meat production at all!

But it's not about pointing at others saying "YOU have to"... it's about here, now and rather say "WE ALL should"... and "everyone to his possibilities".

IMO industries need to be held accountable for their policies and their products need to be taxed (on import) due to the environmental impact they create... competitiveness on a market should not be increased by dirty policies. Further should be the management of said companies be held directly accountable for their (dirty) decisions. This (along with worldwide education) will make the change (much faster)...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
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Posted:Tom, as to the World Environment News, how about you quote the whole article. See page 5, this discussion. Eating 30 Percent Less Meat Good For Health, Planet

Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:did you? laugh3

And need to revise my earlier statement: actually I have little clue about what really needs to be dun... what lies within range of possibilities at all...

Do we really hold our parents accountable for their actions? Because they already had sufficient information...

Only the outcome was not predictable... is it going to be cold or hot? Or wot?





Watch at 1:49...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mynci
Mynci

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Posted:Did anyone see on BBC 4 this week "Man on Earth" with Tony Robinson? He was explaining passed global climate changes and the last time there was a 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature like we are facing it turned the dry african areas into lush green plains full of grasses and trees. He also showed how sea levels were at least 6 metres higher then than they are now. I agree with Tom it's not the planet just the current species which are screwed. I did like his comments on how the last major global warming was what may have actually saved humans from extinction.

I'm not sure if that would be a good thing or not as humans would then be likely to start farming there and the cahnge in environment would be bad for animals with no means of migration due to human populations.
It all made me think. we struggle to save endangered species that are designed to fit in tiny niches and yes we should do our utmost to not destroy them, but we have to focus on the fact that the climate will change and diversity will be effected.

I do wonder when Politians will actually put the planet and the people first and put restrictions on them regardless of the fact there will be public outcry. How long before they are able to make the tough decisions. population control, border control, emission control.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Stone
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Posted:Tom, that was 89 000 years ago. You are living in the past. Its the future we have to worry about. For example, whats going to happens when the Punjab runs out of ground water?

Hi Mynci, I havent seen Man on Earth" with Tony Robinson, but I will keep an eye out for it, as it will surely be shown locally. I have to say that Tony Robinson, while persuasive and often funny, is an actor. His suggestion that temperatures are likely to turn dry african areas into lush green plains full of grasses and trees, is a far cry from reality. For example, Mali villagers fight back against Sahara.


Originally Posted By: MynciI do wonder when Politians will actually put the planet and the people first and put restrictions on them regardless of the fact there will be public outcry. How long before they are able to make the tough decisions. population control, border control, emission control.

Originally Posted By: Fire TomIMO industries need to be held accountable for their policies and their products need to be taxed (on import) due to the environmental impact they create... competitiveness on a market should not be increased by dirty policies. Further should be the management of said companies be held directly accountable for their (dirty) decisions. This (along with worldwide education) will make the change (much faster)...


I think a many of these policies are actually happening, for example.

US environment watchdog moves to fight climate change.

The US administration of Barack Obama has signalled it will regulate greenhouse gas emissions even if Congress does not approve climate legislation. The decision comes from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), which has concluded greenhouse gases are endangering people's health and must be regulated.

EPA director Lisa Jackson says the accumulation of carbon dioxide and five other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere can lead to hotter, longer heat waves that threaten the health of the sick, the poor and the elderly. Ms Jackson says such gases increase pollution linked to asthma and other respiratory illnesses.

"This long overdue finding cements 2009's place in history as the year the United States Government began seriously addressing the challenge of greenhouse gas pollution and seizing the opportunity of clean energy reform," she said."


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

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Posted:I wouldn't discredit Tony Robinson just because he's an actor. After all, one of the loudest voices that got climate change awareness off the ground was a politician wink

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
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Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
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Posted:So now we say "lots a worries, mate!" ? wink

Originally Posted By: StoneTom, that was 89 000 years ago. You are living in the past. ...

It's these kinds of perpetual punning that is so extremely tiresome engaging in a discussion with you (apart from your inability of insight and maxime "j'excuse, j'accuse"...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
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Posted:Fair point Rouge.



Tom, just to bring you up to date with what's happening in the "real" world -
A Journey through Climate History










If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:I reckon people are beginning to find it difficult to actually justify their lifestyles IRT the overwhelming evidence supporting the Anthropogenic Climate Change model. As such, they are experiencing Cognitive Dissonance ("...an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously.":wiki). In order to reduce CD, people cast about for any evidence that might support their previous choices and arguments, as this is by far easier than admitting you are wrong, and therefore having to change your behaviour. In such a state, authoring a belief system that would be popular with people looking for alternative evidence could be very profitable. As such, you find these books and blogs of people who are stringing together a few points of contrary evidence into a belief system that allows people to feel that perhaps they are ok and that its just some silly scientists getting in a huff about it blah blah.

The problem with stringing together a theory from a few points of evidence to the contrary of thousands of pieces pointing the other way is that it totally discredits the theory - if you apply scientific method. And here you find religion. So I guess if you want to label one camp in this debate "religious", it should really be the ACC skeptics.

Have you guys even read this page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_of_recent_climate_change


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FireTom
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Posted:*yawn* another feel good attack, Stonie?
enjoy living in a world that consists of those who agree with you and those who are "just wrong"... ?

Are you missing Lurch and DoppelGanger responding to you in the gun thread?

CLIMATE CHANGE IS A FACT!!! peace

Now do remember this post of mine, because I will just link to it anytime you accuse me of denial wink Remember that behind most avatars and nicks there might actually be a living (sentient) being. wink

Josh - in the same line - recent climate change IS manmade, or at least accelerated by mankind. No denial from my side.

The only angle I am offering is that

- mankind either is going to cope with concurring change, takes according measures to slow down the process and comes up with solutions to deal with a changed (climatic) environment (floods, droughts, rising sea levels...) OR
- will suffer its demise... maybe even quite miserably...

just that THIS itself will not mean the end of planet earth itself and most likely not even the end of all life on this planet...

If you scroll through my posts you will find that I never advocated eating meat... but I simply stated that becoming veg (alone) will not do the trick and warned that "turning veg" (alone) will be a misleading "feelgood approach". Moreover I pointed out that it might lead to separation of people... at times where we should celebrate each others contribution towards saving the environment and positively encourage more.

Thanks for enlightening me for that last bit of last paragraph and make me round it up as follows

Become veg - but don't suffer the delusion that it will do the trick alone. Beware of pointing your finger at people who do eat meat as certainly they will resent and it's not helping the cause. Be(come more) gentle and go further: organize a rally, volunteer, whatever suits your lifestyle and abilities, contribute - however small. Offer feasible solutions. And above all try to enjoy and celebrate life, for grumpy people are roaming this planet enough already. Keep up a positive playful attitude.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mr Majestik
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coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomBecome veg - but don't suffer the delusion that it will do the trick alone. Beware of pointing your finger at people who do eat meat as certainly they will resent and it's not helping the cause. Be(come more) gentle and go further: organize a rally, volunteer, whatever suits your lifestyle and abilities, contribute - however small. Offer feasible solutions. And above all try to enjoy and celebrate life, for grumpy people are roaming this planet enough already. Keep up a positive playful attitude.

and if you have the time, attempt to discover a method of electricity production derived from people spinning staff and poi smile


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Pyro,

I think the Liberal party experienced Cognitive Dissonance, or some kind of melt down, over the emissions trading scheme bills. As a result, I think many people have dismissed Anthropogenic Climate Change, and are just hoping global warming will all go away.

The page on attribution of recent climate change makes much sense. And, I see what you mean by ACC skeptics being religious. You would need a lot of bind faith to believe some of the stories.




If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoutIt probably won't happen in our lifetimes, but id you come to know your grandchildren, they may have questions about why "your" generation did what they did, knowing what they know.

there's been this thread about carbon offset for fire performers but I can't find it...

"Granpa, is it true that at the beginning of the 21st century people were still burning fossil fuels for entertainment?" "Yes, kid - I've been one of them."

...

is(n't) it a bit frivolous to discuss "vegetarianism for climate change" on a fireperformers forum? It kind-of forces this "feelgood approach" thing on me...

wink

And Stone, being religious doesn't require b(l)ind faith...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Not really, but I see your point though.

In actuality, when I add up all the fuel I burn spinning and factor in the fuel used getting to and from gigs and compare it to what i *could* be burning if i actually commuted to and from work every day, it's not much in the grand scheme of things.

This year was by far the least carbon intensive as the cops have a brand new law to use against us re recreational fire ($400 fine) that's killed our weekly fire jams.

So I'm claiming less than a hundred litres of fuel burned by me personally in the past year for my indulgence in these arts.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Dont worry Stout, you can always plant a tree wink










If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Yes..I can plant a tree

A tall tree with a straight trunk..an evergreen like a mountain hemlock. I could water and fertilise it so it grows all tall and majestic and stalwart and breathtaking and awe inspiring and....stout!!!.

I could grow that tree fro 500 years and once it's reached it's full height I could chop it down. Now here's my reasoning.

Cellulose is mostly carbon by weight, right? so if I take that stout trunk, toss it in the ocean and hook it to my kayak ant tow it out to the really. really deep part of the ocean. You know the place, the one with the mud bottom.

So I'm out in the middle of the ocean with my tree trunk, it's all waterlogged and wanting to sink, but here's the kicker. In my kayak I have a 5 tonne conical weight that just happens to fir perfectly on the top, narrow part of the trunk. I chain this sucker on real good, maybe hammer in a few spikes just for insurance.

Then I let the thing go.

By my reckoning that thing's going to head for the bottom at near the speed of sound and when it impacts in the mud, it's going to bury itself deep in the mud.

So we have a bunch of carbon, literally sealed in a high pressure environment in the absence of oxygen. Ha! it'll never rot...never!

I'd be effectively taking that carbon and returning it to the underground from whence it came. I'd be carbon freakin' neutral, when it comes to firespinning at least.

Here's the kicker, I already bought the tree. It's going to live in a pot for a few years and serve as a live Christmas tree before it gets planted in the ground.

It's genius I tells ya and 500 years from now I'm going to be famous.


smile


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WoodlandApple
WoodlandApple

addict
Location: Australia
Member Since: 1st Dec 2009
Total posts: 474
Posted:reasons why climate change is a good thing:

1. The warmer weather means that the rock climbing season is extended as the rock is always drier and the weather nicer.

2. I read somewhere that it will push the southern hemisphere weather patterns up closer to the equator. This means that for a while, Australia will get New Zealand snow. I could live with that.

3. rising sea levels mean Im living closer to the beach.


sticks and stones my break my bones, but ski patrol will save me.

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stone

Hi Mynci, I havent seen Man on Earth" with Tony Robinson, but I will keep an eye out for it, as it will surely be shown locally. I have to say that Tony Robinson, while persuasive and often funny, is an actor. His suggestion that temperatures are likely to turn dry african areas into lush green plains full of grasses and trees, is a far cry from reality. For example, Mali villagers fight back against Sahara.


Hi Stone it wasn't a suggestion it was history it was how the savanah formed and flourished before the sahara. On his last episode they showed the many human settlements in the (now) sahara based upon lake shores, although I agree it is unlikely to happen exactly the same way twice espescially since the sahara formed about 8000 years ago there is not the same base soil for the grass / plants to grow back.

I can honestly see humanity breaking back down to smaller groups fighting for resources and dramatically reducing human population. The one question I have regarding climate change (which is a fact and humans contribute towards it ) is what happens when climate change occurs and it is NOT driven by humans? this is the fact that I think is avoided by many climate change proponents. Yes we are currently driving climate change. what happens if we reduce carbon output make everything cleam and temperatures again rise - because climate change overall does not NEED to be driven by humans. wouldn't we be better off working to deal with climate change rather than trying to prevent it? because humans cannot perpetually control the Earths climate. we could spend billions of dollars and all our resources and effort cutting back emissions for it to actually not do any good as there is no guarantee the world will correct the balance.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Working to deal with climate change rather than trying to prevent it is what we're going to end up doing. I'd like to claim credit for that ridiculous ( yet plausible ) scenario that I posted last might but I can't.

I adapted the idea from an English university professors. His plan is to freeze giant dry ice torpedos out of manufactured CO2 and bomb those into the bottom of the seabed. High pressure+ cold temps+CO2 being re-sequestered.


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