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Forums > Social Discussion > Vegetarianism for climate change?

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:Lord Stern has been quoted as saying we all need to go vegetarian to save the planet
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6891362.ece
br>
some interesting points raised, as well as the fact that on the radio they were saying the average family dog produces the same carbon footprint as a small car - 0.8 metric tonnes per year due to the high meat and cereal diet dogs have.

Is this really a viable option? meat (essentially fish) is the main reason we have such highly developed brains, should we stop to save the planet or are there much better ways to go?


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: JayKittyI was refering to walking around a place like target and seeing something like lysol or windex saying they have a new green formula, things like that.

And to Fire Tom's issue on people getting mental over stuff. I've been doing pretty well as a vegetarian these past few months, but ate some bacon to spite a rather pushy obnoxious vegan. At breakfast he flaunted how he wasn't eating the pancakes because they weren't vegan and how vegan vegan vegan vegan blah blah blah. Bacon is still as yummy as I remember. Totally worth it laugh3

I don't mind your lifestlye so long as you don't feel the need to tell me about it every second you are awake... also he made some t-shirts so he could tell people even when he was sleeping.

Exactly, greemwashing and the automotive industry is the worst offender IMO

You know, I've never actually met a vegan like that IRL, I've run across a few on the internet but most vegans seem rather mellow about "pushing" their views on us carnivores. I can't remember the last time i saw/heard of a protest out McDonald's or KFC, they used to be commonplace. Several years ago we had "some animal rights group" claiming that they went into a grocery store and injected a frozen turkey with a noxious substance in order to convince people to have a meatless Christmas. Despite demonstrations on the news that it was impossible to stick a needle into a frozen turkey, many people went for ham or beef instead meaning that many turkeys died needlessly and were thrown out, uneaten.


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:I think people should be prepared to kill and butcher their own meat in order to eat it. It would be interesting to see how many people would become vego in such a situation.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I used to wonder that - if I could kill and prepare it myself.

Until I realised that every time I saw a pig or heard a chook I thought how hungry I felt. Or that when my sister slaughtered the pigs we had named and gushed over their cuteness, all I could think of was how pissed off I was that she hadn't shared.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:If I had to slaughter my own meat and cgrow my own crops I would be very hungry and living on chicken,

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I wonder how these farmers would do, if they had to build their own houses, design and fit their own machinery, mix their own chemical fertilizers and transport the cattle to the slaughterhouse themselves...

I also wonder how many presidents would start a war, if they would have to pull the trigger each time...

I am quite certain that people will even be prepared to kill and butcher each other, if only their stomach hurts enough and their children die from hunger... after all, humans seem to be quite easy prey wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, Im not sure Im following you here.

Originally Posted By: Fire TomI wonder how these farmers would do, if they had to build their own houses, design and fit their own machinery, mix their own chemical fertilizers and transport the cattle to the slaughterhouse themselves...

I say they would do very well. Farmer are robust and innovative, and many farmers do exactly as you say. That is they build their own houses, design and build machinery, mix their own (organic) fertilisers, and even make their own bio-diesel.

Originally Posted By: Fire Tom also wonder how many presidents would start a war, if they would have to pull the trigger each time...

I'd say many presidenst started as rebel leaders and would have no problem pulling the trigger. Thats the problem.

Originally Posted By: Fire TomI am quite certain that people will even be prepared to kill and butcher each other, if only their stomach hurts enough and their children die from hunger... after all, humans seem to be quite easy prey.

My take is that people will keep killing and butchering each other until they learn to respect other sentient beings by not killing them and eating them. Note that plants are not generally considered sentient.

So apart from the obvious negative impact of unbridled meat consumption on the environment, I'd say respect for humans beings starts by learning to respect all sentient beings.



Be Veg, Go Green, Save the Planet hug2


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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JayKitty
GOLD Member since Nov 2004

JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey

Total posts: 534
Posted:Now there's something we haven't brought up yet. Not really the nutritional aspects of vegetarianism to help save the world, but the mentality. I mentioned trying for a karma free diet, but Stone really got it. Vegetarianism because you respect other life forms and believe that they have just as much right to exist as we do on this planet.

Don't mind me, just passing through.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:*wonders if she should ask permission before expressing her opinion* wink

I like that spin on it - the mentality rather than the practicality. Because mentality can be extended into other aspects of life and isn't restricted to diet alone.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:umm

Originally Posted By: Stonemany presidenst started as rebel leaders

"many"'s such a vague term that I cease to comment wink

Originally Posted By: Stoneeven make their own bio-diesel.

Originally Posted By: blog makezineBob Teixeira decided it was time to take a stand against U.S. dependence on foreign oil.

So last fall the Charlotte musician and guitar instructor spent $1,200 to convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He bought soybean oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, spending about 30 percent more than diesel would cost.

His reward, from a state that heavily promotes alternative fuels: a $1,000 fine last month for not paying motor fuel taxes.

He's been told to expect another $1,000 fine from the federal government.

And to legally use veggie oil, state officials told him, he would have to first post a $2,500 bond.

wink spread the word tongue2

Originally Posted By: StoneSo apart from the obvious negative impact of unbridled meat consumption on the environment, I'd say respect for humans beings starts by learning to respect all sentient beings.

ONE of my criticisms on "practical (western) Buddhists" is the continuous neglect and discrimination of plants... spank

Remember: If you decide to "go green" - don't trample! wink

Originally Posted By: JKVegetarianism because you respect other life forms and believe that they have just as much right to exist as we do on this planet.

*scratches head* if that was meant to be serious I would rather advise "fruitarianism" no plucking, no cutting - only picking up from the ground wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, no one if forcing you into this discussion. You have already said you dont care what happens to the planet, so whats with the faux arguments? More importantly, why are you trying to denigrate those who obviously have an enlightened understanding of what is going on in the real world?

I really dont see the point to continue discussing your points because you really have to figure it out for your self. To that end, I have compiled a reading list, in which, I hope you will find the answers you seek.

The Garnaut Climate Change Review

Biodiesel production and use by farmers is it worth considering?

Biodiesel in australia - small scale production

What about plants?

The western Buddhist Conception of an Ecological Self

Vegetarianism - in Buddhist's eyes


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Stone - your open approach continues to impress me smile

beerchug

J


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Stone:

Originally Posted By: StoneYou have already said you dont care what happens to the planet

STOP putting words into my mouth spank or - at least quote me.

In lack of appropriate quotes, kindly admit that you (continue to) throw vast assumptions at me... (instantly forgiven - in the course of recent years I learned to handle your 'style' wink )

I said that "this planet is fine". I stand to it. You have (presented) NO arguments whatsoever to prove my statement wrong.

This planet is circling around the sun as it has done for billions of years and (most likely) will continue to do so a few billion years after mankind has been washed off or deserted it. We do NOT have the power to change that.

This planet has gone through a lot worse than us... Ice Ages, Meteor Showers, Continental Drifts to name a few... species got extinct... but to be precise the vast majority of them did. Climate has always changed.

As to the part where we - as a species - are contributing to the climate changing and whether or not we therefore are eradicating ourselves: there are a number of opposing opinions on the topic.

Climate change, hoax of the century - @ Infowars to give another angle (disclaimer: I'm not necessarily subscribing to this POV)

Biodiesel is far off topic, but okay: I got NO problem with it... only that it COULD be illegal (tax evasion) in some countries under certain circumstances. Hence my link. smile

Sentinence: plants DO have intelligence and feelings. You appear to deprive them and classify them as lower life forms... I see quite a number of people who have no problem with insecticides, pesticides, mono cultures - in the kingdom of PLANTS. Why? Because you can't hear them scream? Plants have been around for a substantial longer period than any "sentinent" being... You seem to lack of respect for this fact.

Sorry, I'm not subscribing to -isms of whatever kind. I am merely observing that quite a few people seem to have their own idea of who any of the great spiritual leaders of this planet were and what they actually said. Thus I also don't care too much for your passive aggression and denigration towards myself. Spiritual capitalism and elitism is quite common, always has been. I'm not going further on a spiritual debate with you as this.

I honor everybody who chooses awareness, but wouldn't go as far as calling them (or myself) having an "enlightened understanding of what is going on in the real world"... whatever you connect to the term "real"...

We have - in another thread - already made a ranked list of diets and figured which one of them has the least impact on the environment. Whether or not they are actually healthy is a completely different topic smile

However it got clear that - when it comes to completely "karma free food" the only way is 'fruitarianism'. Of that particular path only picking up what has already fallen to the ground can be considered absolutely "karma free"... btw devouring on already dismembered bodies of animals (or humans) could be considered "karma free" also... bit morbid but still - it's that...

Point is that I honor anyone's opinion and way of life - as long as they're not stepping on my feet, take away my habitat, tote their guns at/ threaten me or try to shove it down my throat or up the other end...

So: whatever makes you (a) happy (hippie) - be my guest.

I notice(d) myself condescending to people who don't practice or live "unaware", eat steaks or poke smot for breakfast already, ride the beach on a motorbike, guzzle fuel in SUV's, travel to space for chuckles or rub off on their guns...

Take it from me: it's just a reflection of inadequacies of "the self". (almost) Everytime I catch myself and ask: Tom, you seem not to be happy. Get a break, make a holiday or hug a tree for this sake... 'Cause ultimately it's my mind that creates this world and there's space for everyone... even for you wink hug peace


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks Josh smile

Fire Tom, you might like to check out these docos when you get a chance:Planet Earth: The Future and Saving Planet Earth


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: Fire TomSentinence: plants DO have intelligence and feelings. You appear to deprive them and classify them as lower life forms... I see quite a number of people who have no problem with insecticides, pesticides, mono cultures - in the kingdom of PLANTS. Why? Because you can't hear them scream? Plants have been around for a substantial longer period than any "sentinent" being... You seem to lack of respect for this fact.

Fire Tom if you could really hear the plants screaming then I think you would have a totally different outlook on global warming and the future of the planet.

The fact is that most of the plants we consume for food are annual plants. An annual plant is a plant that germinates, flowers, and dies in a year or season. Many food plants are annuals. This includes domesticated grains (wheat, rice, lentils, soy, navy beans etc), tubers (potatoes, carrots, swedes) and leafy vegetables like cabbages. So, the reality is that these plants aren't screaming is because they aren't being killed. But you do have a point, some plants are screaming.

The plants that are screaming are likely to be noble long-lived trees and plants from rainforests in places like the Amazon. They are screaming because they are being cut down at alarming rate to make way for cows that are turned into super-size-me hamburgers. The irony is the unnecessary decimation of the rainforests and the slaughter of cows accelerates global warming.

Now you have a nice day smile



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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hamamelis
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

hamamelis

nut.
Location: Bouncing off the walls.

Total posts: 756
Posted:Potatoes, swedes and carrots aren't annual, they're biennial wink The roots of any tubers we eat would naturally survive and regrow- though still being the same plant- after a dormant period.

By the way, I could try and find a reference for this if you want, but I do recall reading that the rate of deforestation for soy plantations actually exceeded the rate of clearing for beef farming several years ago. Bit ironic really- eat tofu, destroy the rainforest?

Well, except for the fact that most of the soy produced is used as cheap high-protein animal feed.. wink


THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!


If that's okay with you?

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fair enough, one year or two. You could wait for the carrots seed. I posted a reference on deforestation by soy plantations in the old vegetarian thread. Some of us move on. These days, as you noted, Id suggest that the most of the soy produced in Brazil is used to feed animals kept in animal factories. In Japan most of the soy that is used in Tofu comes from America and Canada and not Brazil. This is due to quality issues. I suppose the bottom line here is to avoid eating meat and soy.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:wink I've seen it on ... *fill in any established and reputed television agency, like BBC, CNN, Animal Planet, Discovery Channel, National Geographic, Nikelodeon, MTV* ... thus it just GOT to be true... wink

I'm taking all reports from media as being biased to get their content sold... in whichever direction. Not saying that it's necessarily WRONG - only saying that it's that: populist propaganda....

THE PLANET (EARTH) IS FINE! More than once ALL trees and MOST animals have vanished from its surface... life has the tendency to rebound - maybe not in the shape that we are used to (and like so much at this point) BUT life is extremely... perennial. Only because there are TV shows that say: SAVE THE PLANET it doesn't mean that its necessarily the case...

Stone - thanks for the links provided hug thanks for trying to raise awareness... I really hope we have the chance to meet IRL one day beerchug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, if you are taking all reports from the media as being biased because they charge for their products, then you problem is with the media, not climate change.

Or to put it aniother way, it's unreasonable to ignore the implications of climate change because you distrust the media. There are a number of people at HoP who will give you their first hand experiences on the implications of climate change.

I see your point about the plant surviving climate change, but if you dont think we can kill the planet then you are dreaming. Anyhow, while technically a planet devoid of animals, trees, water, air and all forms of life is still a planet, but whats the point? Better we look after the planet we have, and leave it in better condition when we depart than when we came. You never know, you might be reborn one day wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:aside from that Tom, I'm amazed that you can live in India where you come into contact with chronic human suffering due to poverty and not have any concern for the human suffering that is going to be (already has been) wreaked on low lying places like Bangladesh through climate change. Don't you care that millions of people are going to have their lives screwed up through this? I mean I can understand your argument about the inevitability of extinction (not that I agree with it), but to not care about all of the people who are going to suffer death and hardship from this, while living in an environment where death and suffering from poverty are a daily occurrence just seems inconsistent.

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Stone: Climate has been changing (significantly) throughout (human and planetary) history - what's the point? Which scale do you apply? 50 - 500 - 5.000 - 50.000 years? Worried about your comfortable lifestyle?

We can't kill the planet - and it's even unlikely that we will be able to kill all lifeforms on it (even if we'd try with all nuclear weaponry that we currently have at our disposal - however unlikely the event at all). If your perception of "life" is limited to that existing (and present) one on this planet, so be it... but it has little to do with "real(ity)"

Trying to leave a place better than you found it, is an honorable attempt (and my personal motto btw) - however you'll have to do a lot of sweeping up to turn the clock back before mankind fuddled with agriculture, cut down trees and domesticated animals ...

Rebirth is not a Buddhist concept is it? wink

Pyro: I don't claim to know the masterplan - personally I wouldn't settle in areas plagued with droughts, floods, poverty or oppressive regimes - which is why refugees usually find my full compassion (if these are their motifs).

I can't follow up on the inconsistency you're talking about.

Try to care for half a billion of people (officially living under the poverty line)... without becoming aware that the wealth of the 5% of India is directly built on it (and has been long before East India Companie has ever come to existence). So how to challenge it?

We're greatly getting offtopic right here and might derail another thread, but trying to solve mankind's problems by staying away from McD's alone is what I'd call "dreaming".

And suffering from the delusion that a veggie diet is preventing floods in Bangladesh or turning one into a better person (than another) will only result in separating us from each other even more, when most that we need right now is compassion and understanding... yesno?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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OuchStaff
BRONZE Member since Sep 2009

OuchStaff

journeyman
Location: The netherlands

Total posts: 65
Posted:I live in the Netherlands (pays bas in french wich means lower lands) because on averege we live below sea level. ie we're screwed if global warming causes the sea level to rise.

however we are getting reports that the water levels of alot of our streams and rivers are getting lower.
alot of people with house boats are having trouble with this problem

(the house boats are on the bed of the streams/ rivers)


Ouch o.O

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fire Tom, significant is when something differs from what is normal. A one-in-a-thousand-year event, like in Cumbria, is significant. As too was the recent spring heat wave in Australia.

As to the comfortable lifestyle, fiddle away. You are the one having trouble coping with change.


Hi OuchStaff, our rivers are also getting lower, buts that because we are not getting the rainfall we have in the past. Much of this has to do with El Nio. However, sea-levels are rising as the Atarctic icesheet loses mass.




If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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JayKitty
GOLD Member since Nov 2004

JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey

Total posts: 534
Posted:It's one thing to accept change, but just because you accept something does not mean you should be indefferent to it and not try and do your part.

Don't mind me, just passing through.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Did I mention that I regularly plant trees, live on a 98% veg diet, am only driving a motorbike, do not need heating (tropical climate), install energy saving lights though my maximum electricity bills sum to a mere 15$/ month, conserve water where possible and am one of the very few separating trash and not burning plastic in my backyard?

I find myself confronted with a few misconceptions about "poverty" "save the planet" and "FireTom doesn"t care for the environment" wink

"Save the planet" is a slogan only - care for your environment and act locally without imposing your concepts on others... \

wink cool


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Jay Kitty, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the Kbler-Ross change cycle, as in coping with change.


Just catching up:

Originally Posted By: Fire TomAnd suffering from the delusion that a veggie diet is preventing floods in Bangladesh or turning one into a better person (than another) will only result in separating us from each other even more, when most that we need right now is compassion and understanding... yesno?

Well almost Tom, acknowledging and taking ownership of the effect that "your environmental foot print has on other societies is the first step in compassion and understanding.

From an Eastern perspective, we could say Karma, the law of moral causation, arises from Avidya.


Originally Posted By: Fire Tom..."FireTom doesnt care for the environment.

Judging from you hostile attitude and arguments against climate change, I dont think its a misconception at all.


EDITED_BY: Stone (1259454198)
EDIT_REASON: clarity


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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OuchStaff
BRONZE Member since Sep 2009

OuchStaff

journeyman
Location: The netherlands

Total posts: 65
Posted:It was a quote not something he means.

Ouch o.O

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I know, and I was editing while you posted.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:The following story was taken from the Lancet medical journal as part of a series on climate change and health ahead of the Copenhagen global climate summit scheduled next month.

Eating 30 Percent Less Meat Good For Health, Planet

LONDON - Cutting meat production and consumption by 30 percent would help to reduce carbon emissions and improve health in the most meat-loving nations, scientists said on Wednesday.

Using prediction models, British and Australian researchers found that improving efficiency, increasing carbon capture and reducing fossil fuel dependence in farming would not be enough to meet emissions targets. But combining these steps with a 30 percent reduction in livestock production in major meat-producing nations and a similar cut in meat-eating, would lead to "substantial population health benefits" and cut emissions, they said.

The study found that in Britain, a 30 percent lower intake of animal-source saturated fat by adults would reduce the number of premature deaths from heart disease by some 17 percent -- equivalent to 18,000 premature deaths averted in one year. In Sao Paulo, Brazil, it could mean as many as 1,000 premature deaths averted in a year, they said.

According to the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization, 18 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions are from meat production and experts say rising demand for meat, particularly in countries with growing economies, could drive livestock production up by 85 percent from 2000 levels by 2030...




If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Stone: there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path... wink

You color my arguments the way you like to hear them, not the way I mean them.

You have concepts and ideas about me and my way of life, continue to throw vast assumptions and judgments at me, when in reality you are only shooting in(to) the dark with your eyes closed.

Live up to your signature and act from compassion, love and understanding... and you might actually get somewhere smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Tom, I know you from the comments you make in these discussions, in particular your negative attitude towards environment issues like global warming and water conservation. So, Im not making any assumption or shooting into the dark. Im going on what you actually say. If you dont mean what you say, then think before you post! So, judging from you previous negative attitude towards the environment, I find it incongruous that you should suddenly try an appear to be an environmentalist (having concern for the environmet). If you claim to care for the environment, then be an environmentalist and not an apologetic. As to my signature, I meditate every day. Meditation like most thinks in life takes practice.


EDITED_BY: Stone (1260059367)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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