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Forums > Social Discussion > Vegetarianism for climate change?

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:Lord Stern has been quoted as saying we all need to go vegetarian to save the planet
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6891362.ece
br>
some interesting points raised, as well as the fact that on the radio they were saying the average family dog produces the same carbon footprint as a small car - 0.8 metric tonnes per year due to the high meat and cereal diet dogs have.

Is this really a viable option? meat (essentially fish) is the main reason we have such highly developed brains, should we stop to save the planet or are there much better ways to go?


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


This Jaded Flesh
This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham
Member Since: 30th Oct 2009
Total posts: 323
Posted:Just a little off topic question. If you refuse to eat soya, what other sources of protein are there? Apart from Mushrooms of course.

"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"


Charlie Fox
Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2006
Total posts: 156
Posted:Actually soya is one of the lower content Protein sources of the Vegan/Vegetarian possibilities compared to Many Grains, Quinoa & Couscous

Vegan sources of protein
Amaranth
Cereals and grains - buckwheat, rye, corn, rice, pasta...
Leafy green vegetables, including spinach
Legumes - beans, lentils, peas, peanuts
Nutritional yeast
Nuts - almonds, walnuts, cashews...
Quinoa
Seaweed - spirulina, kelp ...
Seeds - hemp, sesame, sunflower...
Vegetables - Brussel sprouts, potatoes, yuca

Ovo-lacto sources of protein
Eggs
Cheese
Milk
Yogurt

Remember, the biggest of the dinosaurs were the Plant Eaters ;


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)


This Jaded Flesh
This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham
Member Since: 30th Oct 2009
Total posts: 323
Posted:Awesome thanx.

"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"


Charlie Fox
Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2006
Total posts: 156
Posted:No Trouble at all smile

I'm a huge fan of Quinoa (Pronounced Keen-Wa), I only discovered it recently, very high protein (16g/100g ish), Low GI (35), Alkaline, and quick to cook.


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)


This Jaded Flesh
This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham
Member Since: 30th Oct 2009
Total posts: 323
Posted:My veggie friend has tried to give it to me before. I found it abit bland... Think it needs alot of herbs or to be served with something like curry?

"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: stoneAs to fire-breathing cows, umm, Im sure like most people we would rather forget the rather unsavoury and dangerous school boy practice of lighting farts.

Sez you. grin

Sigh, the lengths I go to to try and link social discussion to these arts.


Quote:Im not sure I agree that you have to be a vegan, from a Buddhist perspective .

From a Buddhist perspective, maybe not but from the more popular, colloquial interpretation of karma then yes, once you know that suffering is caused on order to furnish you with a product, then one would think that would affect your karma. I don't know if there's anything like a free range dairy cow, or what that would actually mean in a real world example.
Certainly (well, theoretically ) I could get myself a dairy cow, stick it in the backyard, treat it well and enjoy karma free dairy.



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: Charlie FoxActually soya is one of the lower content Protein sources of the Vegan/Vegetarian possibilities compared to Many Grains, Quinoa & Couscous

Actually Charlie, with about 36% protein I think you will find soy bean is one of the highest sources of grain protein. Other pulses or grain legumes like navy beans, lentils, chickpeas etc are also good sources of protein, and tasty too.

I looked up quinoa and like most cereals and pseudocereals its mostly carbohydrate with about 14% protein. However, there is a good balance of amino acids compared to cereals. Interestingly enough, quinoa is related to a weed we call fat hen, which surprisingly enough they used to feed to chooks. Its also worth noting that saponins in quinoa can be mildly toxic, however the risks are minimal, provided it is properly prepared and leaves are not eaten to excess.


Originally Posted By: StoutFrom a Buddhist perspective, maybe not but from the more popular, colloquial interpretation of karma then yes, once you know that suffering is caused on order to furnish you with a product, then one would think that would affect your karma. I don't know if there's anything like a free range dairy cow, or what that would actually mean in a real world example. Certainly (well, theoretically ) I could get myself a dairy cow, stick it in the backyard, treat it well and enjoy karma free dairy.

Stout, your efforts to raise the standard of social discussion have been noted smile

Fair enough about karma. Being mindful of what you consume really does mean that eating meat is just unacceptable. No need to get a cow though, just buy soy milk. Or if you really like cow milk, go organic.

Cheers peace





If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:I don't know that going full on vegetarian is the right thing to do to save the planet, but pushing back meat consumption and lowering demand would make a huge impact on lessening the carbon footprint and sustaining the land.

Switching to organic farming practices that do less harsh impact to the land and waterways would be vital to the vegetarian switch making any type of positive impact.

Come to think of it, there are towns powering themselves off of livestock waste currently and it's very clean power and quite a form of recycling.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)


EpitomeOfNovice
EpitomeOfNovice

Putting the "FUN" in fundamental since 1981
Location: Dover, Delaware USA
Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 787
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stone
Im not sure I agree that you have to be a vegan, from a Buddhist perspective . In Precepts it says undertake to abstain from harming living beings. This leaves much open to interpretation. As part of a useful guide written by Thich Nath Hanh it says Be aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption, be committed to cultivating good health, both physical and mental, for myself, my family, and my society by practicing mindful eating, drinking, and consuming

Cheers wave

Thank you so much for saying that, I'm Buddhist myself and this is what I have been taught at temple (meat is served for sangha meals there as well as a vegetarian option, but that is not due to any practicing reasons). It has greatly affected my shopping practices and in turn has improved my health at the same time. Mindful consumption would set off a positive chain reaction from the individual to society to the planet.


~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)


Charlie Fox
Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2006
Total posts: 156
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneOriginally Posted By: Charlie FoxActually soya is one of the lower content Protein sources of the Vegan/Vegetarian possibilities compared to Many Grains, Quinoa & Couscous

Actually Charlie, with about 36% protein I think you will find soy bean is one of the highest sources of grain protein.


You are correct, I was not aware you could eat the physical bean without extensive processing, usually it's turned into milk or tofu for example, which traditionally have Protein around 6 - 12 % wink

I've attempted to buy the beans before, but in NZ at least they are not available.


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Good point, I always look up nutritional information on the grain. I didnt realise you lost so much protein when processing into tofu.

Try soybean meal or soy flour. Check the net for recipes. Where to buy soybean.

Enjoy smile


EDITED_BY: Stone (1257200916)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


JayKitty
JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey
Member Since: 7th Nov 2004
Total posts: 534
Posted:Over the summer I spent a lot of time hanging around a Krishna friend. He was the one that told me about karma free eating, so I can't really pretend that I know everything about it. The Krishna diet also says no stimulants, so coffee and black tea are out, and mushrooms and onions are out to, I think I read someplace that they are supposed to make you less sharp mentally. Anyway, the founder of the Krishna movement was saying that milking a cow does not harm the cow, it gives its milk freely and that milk can be made into many different nutritious products. The practices used today might make that wrong today, but I don't see the need to go full vegan to be karma free.

As for saving the planet, yeah, eating less meat would help. Will it happen? Do your part, try and teach those around you who are willing.


Don't mind me, just passing through.


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stone

Stout, your efforts to raise the standard of social discussion have been noted smile



I'm tryin' smile

Did you notice I didn't call Lord Stern an elitist douchbag for suggesting that the price of meat be raised up so only people in his economic class can afford it. Dammit Jim, those poor people can't be trusted with the health of the environment we have to take away their ability to cause harm for their own good.

Nor did I demand he whip out his own carbon footprint and slap it on the table for us all to measure and judge. Lord knows 9 ha, see what I did there ) that it's not the bourgeoisie capitalist pigdog scum ruling class that's trashing the planet with their ruling class excesses.

I didn't even demand that he take a canoe, or some sort of "alternative" transport if he's planning on going to Copenhagen.

I've been converted, I've seen the light !

I read this



Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:^^^Interesting read Stout - thanks.

I see what this guy is getting at - but I dont completely agree with his central argument; Living simply is a flawed method of bringing about change in the world. If you read the comments after the article, there are plenty of people debating this too.


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:
Stout, I think the Orion article Forget Shorter Showers is really just another cop out in the global warming debate. I dont agree with Kirkpatrick Sale who said The whole individualist what-you-can-do-to-save-the-earth guilt trip is a myth. We, as individuals, are not creating the crises, and we cant solve them.

We are all part of the global warming problem so the buck stops with us. Individual need to take responsibility, and we all need to work together. That includes governments.

I think there are many fallacies in the article. Shorter showers have helped the people of Melbourne reduce their water consumption to 155 L/day. Our water supply comes from rain fed dams, and has nothing to do with agriculture. Having personal water targets works when water is in short supply. If nothing is done to curb green house gas emissions, then water will become scarce in many countries. If the Swiss glaciers keep melting , for example, then the mighty Rhine river will be a muddy creek in 25 years. Fish are dying because of acidification of the oceans, a non global warming result of increases CO2 emissions.

I could go on, but I'm just fed up discussing the impact of global warming on the environment with apologetics duck


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:Saw this and thought of all of you wink

http://trueslant.com/hivemind/2009/11/01...global-warming/
br>
It's an article saying how lucky humans have been with global warming. It doesn't say global warming is bad only that an Ice age would be worse and if we can manage our resources we could possibly maintain global temperatures for a lot longer rather than blow our fossil fuels and be at the mercy of thousands of tonnes of ice. IT suggests trying to reduce CO2 back to 280ppm and suggests we have to be aware of long term global trends in temperature and be ready to manipulate the planet accordingly.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Mynci, thanks for the article. My home State used to be called the Garden State, now its almost a desert. Forgive me if I am less than convinced by your article. Ninety nine point nine percent of scientists accept climate change, and are trying to work out solutions. If people are not part of the solution, then they are part of the problem.

Cheers smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stone
Stout, I think the Orion article Forget Shorter Showers is really just another cop out in the global warming debate.

Ditto. I've seen that viewpoint implied several times but I've never seen it spelled out like that before. I missed the comments section at the bottom of the article, thanks josh, and it looks like several people are taking him to task on this. i wonder what part of demand driving supply he doesn't get or whether he's just using this an as excuse to consume and trying to give himself a moral 'get out of jail free' card by acting strictly on the political, rather than the personal, level.

I've never heard of Kirkpatrick Sale but a quick glance at wikipedia shows he's a far left extremist freakshow which, incidentally, is where i got the link to that article from. Strange, of that forum nobody debated the it.



Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: MynciSaw this and thought of all of you wink

http://trueslant.com/hivemind/2009/11/01...global-warming/
br>


Ha!! Excellent, now I can get the viper out of the garage and not only drive it but leave it running 24/7 ( you know just in case I hurt my wrist starting it up ) and actually help the planet by doing so.

wink

EDITED_BY: Stout (1257290008)
EDIT_REASON: Added winking smily, just in case



Charlie Fox
Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2006
Total posts: 156
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneM...Ninety nine point nine percent of scientists accept climate change,...

I feel like i should add to that statement, whilst yes the vast majority of Scientists accept that the climate is indeed changing, that fact alone should not generate and controversy, earth has a tendency to do that.

The controversy, and scientific split, a). whether man is having much, if any impact on the change, and b) whether man can have much, if any impact on slowing or preventing the change.
The whole rising CO2 argument is flawed badly, historically Temperature rises, THEN CO2 rises, not the other way around, there is no scientific or historical basis to state that increased CO2 in the atmosphere will have much, if any effect on global temperatures (in the long term), does no one recall several decades ago the great Global Cooling Debate where scientists suggested that if we worked to INCREASE the CO2 in the atmosphere the global cooling and imminent ice age might be preventing.

lols.


One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne

Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)


JayKitty
JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey
Member Since: 7th Nov 2004
Total posts: 534
Posted:You have to wonder how much the public's mentality factors into the climate change. With more and more people wanting greener options and trying to live greener, the corporations that at least try and cut back to appear greener are flourishing. Some corporations are cutting back, others are not, but as far as companies making sonsumer products, they are directed by what their consumers want. If the majority of the public is going greener, then the company will keep with that image.

I was re-reading the posts and giggled at the thought of militant vegetarianism... I saw a frightened little girl hiding in an attic eating a hamburger while vegan nazis searched the houses. lmoa.


Don't mind me, just passing through.


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:1 thought. based on the ropey article I posted, made me think what would be worse for the planet? extreme warming or an ice age. I think Humans could survive severe global warming we are accustomed to dealing with water etc. however if an ice age did occur after we'd run out of resources how bad would it be? I honestly think major Earth Cooling would be worse for humans than global warming, however for the planet I think the reverse would be true.

I still think reducing birth rate needs to be the first thing we do to save the planet, less people less emissions simples ;)even if we reduce carbon footprint per person by half it will do no good if the number of people doubles.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


JayKitty
JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey
Member Since: 7th Nov 2004
Total posts: 534
Posted:Reducing the birth rate would be ideal, but I think people are going to die out the same way as bacteria. We are currently in the same growth trend. Our population expands exponentially until the resources can't support anymore, the population plateus and then experiences massive death from lack of any sort of resource. It may be a while, but we aren't we already making plans to move off this rock?

Don't mind me, just passing through.


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoutYou do need to be a vegan if you want to go down that 'karma free" road.

Fruitarian to be precise - and only collect what has already fallen wink

because plants too have feelings...

As such the climate is subject to change... it's merely about whether or not we accelerate the process.

Like it or not: mankind is going to be washed off the surface of this planet long before this planet stops revolving around its star.

WE ARE NOT A THREAT TO THIS PLANET - vegetarian or carnivore... IMHO this is all just a mind-shag... wink

go back and enjoy your dinner - whatever is on the plate cool

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1257607481)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


This Jaded Flesh
This Jaded Flesh

One soul is as good as another...
Location: England, Durham
Member Since: 30th Oct 2009
Total posts: 323
Posted:Here here! When I listen to people talk about climate change thats all I hear too.

"For the planet"

We should be thinking about us.


"I may lack virtue, but I'm penitent"


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: JayKittyYou have to wonder how much the public's mentality factors into the climate change. With more and more people wanting greener options and trying to live greener, the corporations that at least try and cut back to appear greener are flourishing. Some corporations are cutting back, others are not, but as far as companies making sonsumer products, they are directed by what their consumers want. If the majority of the public is going greener, then the company will keep with that image.


Do you mean greenwashing or you referring to people's preference to participate in the more fun aspects of being green like going to protests, boycotting or making internet posts ?



Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: Mynci1 thought. based on the ropey article I posted, made me think what would be worse for the planet? extreme warming or an ice age. I think Humans could survive severe global warming we are accustomed to dealing with water etc. however if an ice age did occur after we'd run out of resources how bad would it be? I honestly think major Earth Cooling would be worse for humans than global warming, however for the planet I think the reverse would be true.



You mean the "snowball Earth: theory ?
Yes, this would really and truly suck, and suck hard as we wouldn't even be able to get a Logan's Run type society going on under the ice.



Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomOriginally Posted By: StoutYou do need to be a vegan if you want to go down that 'karma free" road.

Fruitarian to be precise - and only collect what has already fallen wink

because plants too have feelings...



And don't forget to replant the seeds smile My heart is still weeping for those pumpkins that we kidnapped from their natural environment, eviscerated then defaced by cutting funny faces into their corpses then filling them with white gas and danced around the cremation in a joyous celebration of fire and music....and we did it for money.

Quote:go back and enjoy your dinner - whatever is on the plate

Breakfast actually and it's bacon

mmmmmmm bacon



FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: AltpersonaWe should be thinking about us.

this actually is the crucial point... the planet is fine (and will continue to be fine)... but we're about to extinct ourselves.

my above post has been a bit... cynical wink

there is nothing wrong with awareness about environmental issues as long as you don't get mental over it... and as long as you're not running around, poking your finger into other peoples faces over their choice of lifestyle.

Be(come) the change you want to see in the world meditate


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


JayKitty
JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey
Member Since: 7th Nov 2004
Total posts: 534
Posted:I was refering to walking around a place like target and seeing something like lysol or windex saying they have a new green formula, things like that.

And to Fire Tom's issue on people getting mental over stuff. I've been doing pretty well as a vegetarian these past few months, but ate some bacon to spite a rather pushy obnoxious vegan. At breakfast he flaunted how he wasn't eating the pancakes because they weren't vegan and how vegan vegan vegan vegan blah blah blah. Bacon is still as yummy as I remember. Totally worth it laugh3

I don't mind your lifestlye so long as you don't feel the need to tell me about it every second you are awake... also he made some t-shirts so he could tell people even when he was sleeping.


Don't mind me, just passing through.


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