Forums > Help! > Binding a cracked staff

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Markov
stranger

Member Since: 19th Sep 2009
Total posts: 1
Posted:I just got a new woode fire staff recently and I missed a throw and immediatley the end of it cracked. Its not a bad crack, but its close enough to the wick that if I light it, I think any tape used to bind it will just melt off. Is there a fire retardent tape or epoxy or something I can use to reinforce the ends, to keep the crack from getting worse?

I just cant afford to invest in a new staff, and would hate to have one I just bought break so soon.


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Try PVC/ electrical insulation tape.

smile


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:umm as long as you can fix it with Duct tape - it ain't broken!

this one can't be fixed with duct tape - so consider it "broken"... wink

sorry but I'd rather twist my own arm than seeing that one end of the staff (with the wick) sail towards the audience when lit.... umm at least not in Europe where law actually IS law wink

If that staff is "almost" new - contact it's manufacturer... some of them actually do honor customer satisfaction and grant a warranty smile

good luck


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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steambug
stranger
Location: Adelaide, Oztralia
Member Since: 16th Sep 2007
Total posts: 21
Posted:Umm, so I'm guessing you spin for your own pleasure, not a professional performer wonder

This is all speculation, I've never owned/ tried to fix a wooden staff, anyhow... whistle
Something like this might be okay(it's an australian site but I'm sure there are equivalents elsewhere)- it is supposed to still be fully operational at 260C, but fairly expensive if aim is to save money smirk .

...Alternatively maybe a bit of self- adhesive aluminium flashing (often used on the end of wooden staffs under the wick)would work, though you'd have to add some to the other side as well since it would effect weighting.

Oh and fire resistant epoxy's are available, i just can't find any useful links right now.

Good luck with it smile


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:"wooden fire staff" seem to still exist despite the fact that wood and fire don't match...

IF you really intend to fix it, I'd suggest aluminum tubing (then on both ends) as to plug the pieces back together, screws and epoxy... "tape" to me (as Germanski) sounds too flimsy wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Wire would probably be your best bet, just make sure to wrap it really tightly.

Did you actually buy a wooden staff, or make it yourself ? The reason I'm asking is, I've blown plenty of throws with my wooden practice staff and it's showing no signs of cracking, it weighs 720 grams and has hit the concrete more times than I care to admit, so you could have a really crappy piece of wood there that's not worth fixing because the other end is bound to go.

For wood, the best IMO is rosewood. Super dense and strong and readily available at martial arts supply stores. I was going to make a fire staff out of it, but I got lazy and just bought an aluminium one instead.


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Charlie Fox
Charlie Fox

Burinating the village like Trogdor
Location: West Auck, NZ
Member Since: 2nd Jun 2006
Total posts: 156
Posted:Originally Posted By: steambug...
Something like this might be okay(it's an australian site but I'm sure there are equivalents elsewhere)- it is supposed to still be fully operational at 260C, but fairly expensive if aim is to save money smirk ....

These tapes come under the category of "Self Amalgamation Tapes", I have tried a few different types, but all of them dissolve into goop when exposed to solvents (e.g. Kerosene), which is a shame, because they would make super grippy grips.


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Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)

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steambug
stranger
Location: Adelaide, Oztralia
Member Since: 16th Sep 2007
Total posts: 21
Posted:Aah oops, yeah have to admit I have not tried using them for such things myself. tis definitely a shame, can think of lots of handy applications frown

good to know though, cheers smile


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoutFor wood, the best IMO is rosewood. Super dense and strong and readily available at martial arts supply stores. I was going to make a fire staff out of it, but I got lazy and just bought an aluminium one instead.

*cough* "All genuine rosewoods belong to the genus Dalbergia. The pre-eminent rosewood appreciated in the western world is the wood of Dalbergia nigra which is now a CITES-listed endangered species." wink

For any sort of (fire)staff, personally I'd recommend aluminum tube with a (regular pine) wood core....

wink


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Well, then we'll be expecting the supply to dry up and I'll consider this staff I have as an investment.

I went this route because i thought a wooden firestaff would be rather cool looking, with copper on the ends extending maybe 15 cm past the wicks, down the length of the staff, all polished and glinty, no tape, just that super thick finish that they put on those things.

Also, I was having a hard time finding a length of white oak greater than 120 cm ( I wanted 150 cm, but settled with a length of 135 cm for both my practice and fire staves.

I do have a wood fire sword, which is just kevlar wrapped around that wood sword I bought at the martial arts store. I didn't bother with putting any metal on it, thinking that if it does start to burn up, I'll just get another one. It's been a year so far, and no signs of damage.


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Stout...you are too funny! ..an investment! lmao

Pine is one of the worst woods to use, imo. It's a soft wood so it splits and cracks easily. It is also a sap wood, which means if it isn't properly dried, it does flame up. If it's properly dried, it combusts really well. I work with pine a lot (stilt making) because of it's lightness and strength but whenever we used it for fire stuff..ick.
And it shouldn't be pressure treated wood, we found out from the lumber guy. Something about chemicals used in the process not going well with fire.

What's your fire sword wood? I thought most non-kata specified bokken are of American White Oak, Asian Red Oak or Hickory.

@ Markov. I would suggest a flame resistant epoxy. My local hardware store carries them, so I perhaps they will be readily available where you are. After that I agree with Stout on wiring it.
I would actually advise against screws because they may cause the wood to split further.

Did you purchase this or make it? If you purchased, I agree with contacting the manufacturer about a warranty.

Best of luck!


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:any wood, INSIDE an 1-2.5mm aluminum tube...

aluminum: protection (of wood from fire), weight, stability
wooden core: flexibility with added stability to prevent aluminum from bending

one of the reasons, rosewood is "kind-a" precious is because rose wood (as opposed to pine or other "commercial" trees) is growing VERY slow. At the same time it is not as easy to find SLIM pieces of considerable length that are STRAIGHT.

Originally Posted By: GreepeaceRosewoods comprise 100 species, distributed in many tropical regions of South and Central America, Africa, India and Southeast Asia. Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) is listed as CITES Appendix I. The situation is almost as dire for other rosewood species, particularly African Blackwood (D. melanoxylon), Honduras rosewood (D. stevensonii), Indian rosewood (D. latifolia) and Cocobolo (D. retusa). Despite international recognition of green felling bans, demand is so high that illegal trade continues.

refer to this handy guide of Greepeace for your choice of wood wink

but I'm a bit confused... am I really the only one in here having safety issues if someone is spinning fire with a cracked staff? umm


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:The first staff i ever made, I made out of fir, (It wasn't a fire staff) and it ended up being the bendiest, spriongiest staff ever and soon hit the trash as one of those failed experiments.

Pele, the bokken I'm using appears to be red oak. I didn't actually buy it, someone else did and he got "the cheap ones" figuring that we weren't going to be hitting each others flaming swords with any force...'cause that's not only damaging to the kevlar, but really ups the chance of an accident on stage.

I can't say I know how to use it properly so if I light it up for a solo, I more flail about trying to appear like i know what I'm doing but the choreographed fight scene is coming along swimmingly smile

Personally, I've never bothered with wood inside a aluminium staff, I prefer the extra weight to come from more kevlar and until I start bending these things on an annoyingly regular basis, I just going to stick with the hollow tube method. I suppose there's always titanium, if I feel the urge to haemorrhage cash.

Originally Posted By: Fire Tom am I really the only one in here having safety issues if someone is spinning fire with a cracked staff

No, presumably, the safety issue is why this thread was started and we're hoping to help out the OP with helpful hints so nobody ends up wearing a flaming wick in their eye.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I bent 3mm aluminum tube (20mm diameter) - when hot, it's much more prone to bending.

Now I prefer 1.5-2mm (on 20mm diameter)... all with wooden core - pine preferred. Good commercial, fast growing wood. Serves the purpose perfectly.

A widely used technique - not my invention. You could also use tubing and pour raisin into - but the raisin hardens and might shatter on impact... wood does keep the flexibility... then again I dunno about the high tech stuff available these days..

If you're looking for hard(er) wood (and are environmentally concerned, check out the guide). Not trying to save the rain-forest here, only highlighting the issues with rose- and other woods. That been said: Everybody's own choice...

As initially put: tape (or glue) IMHO are *not* safe for repairing a cracked staff. I would guess that only a few methods are suitable to restore the integrity of a cracked staff.

So if you don't want to go for a new one and the dealer is not giving you warranty (which is a shame but at the same time I could understand) - and if you want to play it safe - then you may try the following:

Buy an aluminum tube which inner diameter matches the outer diameter of your staff, you may want to ideally opt 1.5mm tubing (i.e. staff outer diameter = 20mm + 2x1.5mm tube = 23mm outer diameter of the tube) - hope that is not confusing.

Choose at least 15cm long pieces (x2 => for both ends) remove the wick and slide the tube over the cracked end, so that the crack is half way in the middle. You can add epoxy if you wish but I wouldn't think that it's necessary. Just drive two screws on each side of the crack through the entire thing.

Repeat that on the other side for equal weight distribution.

Personally I'm far less concerned with your own personal safety but that of the "innocent" audience - forgive me, but I would say that people who play with fire most likely will get burned at some stage... but people who are merely drawn to watch you, should not get endangered - also for reasons of fire safety regulations... the more accidents happen, the tougher the laws get.

You may choose to keep us posted how things went wink

Happy spinning

smile

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1253698763)
EDIT_REASON: clarity


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Stango
stranger

Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 5
Posted:it really depends on your workmanship and how crafty you are, the best bet would be to take the wick off, im assuming its screwed on wrapped around etc. once the wick is off you drill a hole in the center CENTER of both sides and insert a wooden dowel into the sides so they meet evenly you may need to cut it so its flush and maybe even get better wood, so you can extend the stick. then just wrap 1 or 2 layers of the thinnest layer of fiberglass you can find. re wrap the staff and screw the wick back on. thats just how i would do it. epoxy or even titebond III would work good with a few wood clamps or even hose clamps. the only thing about this is you may need to add some sort of counterweight to the other side, maybe making the wood glue a better choice. you could even buy a deck sealer and coat the whole wood staff if your worried about the glue desolving, should be fine if you give it a 5 days of no solvents.
EDITED_BY: Stango (1253680851)


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Well, it looks like Markov has abandoned his thread.

My online search for "wood fire staff" proved unfruitful, I found a few wood core ones but that's it ( and lots of wood fired pizza oven places ). so I'm thinking this is some sort of local or homemade thing rather than a 'reputable" manufacturer.

I'd seriously consider making myself a wood fire staff, but I'd sure be hesitant to go into business with them, especially with a flimsy wood that's probe to cracking. So if one end broke, then what about the other ? This thing seems doomed anyways.

Stango...good idea(s) but if he's going to put that kind of effort in, then he's probably better off rebuilding the whole thing with the proper materials. So far my white oak practice staff hasn't cracked and it's hit the concrete more times than I'd care to admit.


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Stango
stranger

Member Since: 15th Sep 2009
Total posts: 5
Posted:yeah the easy way would be to start over with the right wood.

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:and the fastest would be to just shorten the staff on the other side and re-apply the wick wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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