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Posted:Hi I'm just wondering if anyone can post a tutorial and/or explain what "CAP"'s are. CAP's are reffered to on the channel Drex's Poi Tech Blog: Link: YouTube-Drex's Tech Poi Blog: one of his video's that contains CAP's

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:... quite nice stuff there but I couldn't watch it till the end...

are you looking for CAP's as in "a move's name that I've never heard and am curious about" or is there a particular move in that vid that you like to learn and don't know how it works?

With names it's a bit difficult in the (tech) community, but if there's a particular move, then maybe you could isolate it? (start xx:xx end xx:xx)

Thanks for posting smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/ubbt...html#Post889948
br>
The answer lies in the above link. smile


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Posted:Thanks for the link Mother Natures Son :), in response to Fire Tom's question about what I mean by CAP's; I mean Continuous Assembly Patterns.

The following link goes to a video that I just found that explain's how to do the specific CAP type that I want to learn and I'm posting it in order to help others like myself who might be having trouble finding out how to do it: Poi Lesson: Basic CAP smile


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Blue sunshine


Blue sunshine

stranger
Location: Albuqquerque, New Mexico

Total posts: 24
Posted:These are next on my list, they look awesome when done clean enough. don't have a sterdy inter-webz conection right now so i can't check out the vids but if anyone has the chance there's a whole chapter on CAP's in the "Encyclo-poi-dia Vol. 2" along with LOTS more. Try and check it out if you havn't!

Trance is the motion-
Check out for events going on all around New Mexico, we have a busy summer ahead of us!
WOOT!~~~

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-sandy-
BRONZE Member since Jul 2004

-sandy-

old hand
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 716
Posted:I thought those were called pac men? meh, parallel evolution.

"Don't do it naked!"

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AlienJon
GOLD Member since Mar 2002

AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere

Total posts: 290
Posted:I got the term from Damien. Read the Yuta Move Analysis thread.

+Alien Jon

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DyamiTK
GOLD Member since Mar 2008

DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

Total posts: 159
Posted:No one in this thread has stated what they personally believe a cap actually is. It's obvious poipeople, a cap is a type of small hat...

My point is that it really doesn't matter so much. We are again getting stuck on a term that most folk really don't seem to understand well enough to explain but still like to use because it is a big, complicated sounding idea, which only seems complicated because most folk understand it well enough to do it but not to explain it.

Here is an excerpt from everyone's favorite Alien on the matter:
(taken from this post: homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/889948/Re_Poi_Theory_of_Everything_An.html#Post889948)
Originally Posted By: Alien JonAt Burning Man 2007 The peeps at OMCC (Noel, Greg, Jordan, Zan, myself, etc) really started to germinate some synergistic ideas that lead to our current understandings of poi. Damien (French_Saltimbanque) Showed up and really added to that with his explorations of CAPs. Later, on HoP he contributed to the Yuta moves analysis post. That is where he coined the term CAPs. I liked it and started using it. To me, it means taking basic "poi geometry" building blocks or fractional piece of other moves with simpler symmetry and assembling them together into more complexly layered moves. Typically this means that each part of the sequence has you change between different driving styles or building blocks.

This is a bit different from what I think a hybrid is, but there are some cases of overlap.

If anything it is a larger overarching concept and family of moves that could be labeled with a CAP attribute. I am not intending to mean "a move". It is silly to say spinning a circle over and over is a CAP, "because you are assembling a sequence of the same building bock repeated over and over again". This is silly in the same way as insisting people refer to a circle as "an ellipse who's focii are an infinitesimal distance apart".

Durbs once petitioned people to only refer to a move as a hybrid if it constantly changed which poi was doing what driving style. To me that is a form of CAP. Where as repeating an iso vs extension hybrid hand-to-poi head is a simple repeating move that hybridizes a different driving style for each hand. If you do a hybrid weave where the hands change driving styles that is a subtle form of CAP to me, but it is more highlighting of its "hybrid-ness". If you do a hybrid weave where you don't change driving styles it is not a CAP in my book.

Derek (in that tutorial Onyx posted a link to above) i think also gives a good definition, and I paraphrase: "two or more moves broken down to little bits and pieces put all together to make one continuous pattern." Back in traditional dance terminology this is known as a movement sequence. I am not sure what Damien originally meant but from what I've been able to decipher from all the ways I have since seen them applied, a continuous assembly pattern is essentially any sequence of multiple repeating patterns. To reiterate Alien Jon, continuous assembly patterns are not a move, they are a way of thinking about movement. A lot of what Alien Jon teaches is like that.

Here is the Alien's playlist of some possible patterns: youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5519AC72F48076EB.


EDITED_BY: DyamiTK (1247820402)
EDIT_REASON: changed my mind


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DrexFactor
GOLD Member since Jul 2007

DrexFactor

Defeats the purpose
Location: Washington, DC USA

Total posts: 73
Posted:Originally Posted By: DyamiTKNo one in this thread has stated what they personally believe a cap actually is. It's obvious poipeople, a cap is a type of small hat...

My point is that it really doesn't matter so much. We are again getting stuck on a term that most folk really don't seem to understand well enough to explain but still like to use because it is a big, complicated sounding idea, which only seems complicated because most folk understand it well enough to do it but not to explain it.

This may totally open up a can of worms, but I'm going to quibble a little bit here. I think we can all agree that there have been far too many cases in which a body has come up with a repeatable move that they're proud of and have promptly christened it with a new name that sends the rest of us scrambling for a definition--it's exactly like how the skateboarding community grew up and it certainly seems as though poi is working at least somewhat in that mold. At the same time, as we discover the different ways different types of movement can fit together, I absolutely believe it is helpful to come up with frameworks to understand these relationships.

For example, mathematical ideas such as fluxions and Aleph numbers are really just nonsense words that blanket categories of concepts, but give us a proper title to use in common transmission of these ideas. I could instead continue to ask people about how one determines the area of a curve or adding together infinite number sets, but having titles like these allow people who've come at the problem from a different angle to have a common frame of reference to draw together multiple ideas under the same banner.

In that regard, I'd say coming up with names for individual combinations of movements are unhelpful in exactly the way you describe, for example having competing terms for orbitals and uberloops that neither clarify the the movement's appearance or approach nor suggest its relationships to other types of movement.

In that regard, I think the term CAP, like hybrids, is actually a helpful way to pool different concepts together into a single frame of reference that not only provides a person learning their first CAP a place to go in learning what else is possible with the movement they just learned, but also predicts types of movements we haven't seen before such as those in the animations you included in your post.

So, to summarize, while I'm not a big fan of the term "CAP", I am a fan of what using it accomplishes in bundling movements together. Ultimately, though, this is a matter of taste.

EDITED_BY: DrexFactor (1247937994)
EDIT_REASON: lots of spelling mistakes :-P


Peace,
Drex

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Hi everybody !!

It have been a long time i did not take a look in HOP ... and then i have not exactly caught all the purposes of the previous posts ... so i am just gonna answer the question of the topic ... sorry by advance for the possible repetitions i could make.

So what's that i have called CAPs (Continuous Assembly Patterns) ?!?


Firstly ... let me explain my vision of what a pattern is.

To my mind a pattern is a cyclic curve that can be define in a unique way by its harmonic component (frequencies or number of tours) and by its "modulus" component (radius or lengthes).

In the field of the 2 circles compounds ... which is for instance the most commonly used (i'll explain later the general case of the 3 compounds circles) ... here are some examples according to this model :


Non-Https Image Link


O is the shoulder, M is the hand ("Main" in french), E is the Extremity of the object (po, club staff) and Ebis is the other extremity in the case of the staff.

Theta1 and Theta2 (frequencies or number of turns) define the harmonic part of a pattern whereas Rho1 and Rho2 (radius or length) define the "modulus" part.

Rho=1 when the arm is stretched (when the po is unwrapped).

The patterns will be defined in the following way : Theta1 Theta2 ; Rho1 Rho2.


And now examples :


Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link


The first example is 1 4 ; 1 1 (if E would have run the other way : -1 -4 ; 1 1)
The second example is 1 -6 ; 1 1 (if E would have run the other way : -1 6 ; 1 1)

As we can see these patterns are in a particular case of "modulus" component ... as the 2 radius or lengthes are equal (in this case ... the simplest ... the values are 1) ... and called "rosettes".

There is another particular "modulus" part mode which give curves called cyclods.
This case happen when the speeds of M and E are equal in the earth (or audience) reference. It means in terms of maths that Rho2/Rho1=abs(Theta1/(Theta1+Theta2)) (Rho1.abs(Theta1)=Rho2.abs(Theta1+Theta2)).

With the first example (1 4 ; 1 1) above it would give us :


Non-Https Image Link


And it would be called 1 4 ; 1 1/5.

With the example of a 3 foils "rosette" antispin (1 -3 ; 1 1) :


Non-Https Image Link


It would be called 1 -3 ; 1 1/2.


All the cycloids are not feasable ... i mean if we keep the arm stretched (Rho1=1) ... because the differents cases of wraps (thumb excluded) can only take the following values :

Rho2 -> Wrap

1/5 -> 2h+1f
1/4 -> 2h
1/3 -> 1h+3f
2/5 -> 1h+2f
1/2 -> 1h+1f
3/5 -> 4f=1h
2/3 -> 3f
3/4 -> 2f
4/5 -> 1f
1 -> 0f

(h for hand and f for finger)


There is also patterns with more than one arm turn (Theta1>1) ... the most popular example of these kind of pattern would be :

Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link


AKA 2 -5 ; 1 1 and 2 -5 ; 1 2/3 (if we keep the same sense of running as the examples above)


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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:But there is a lot of other examples like:


Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link


AKA 3 2 ; 1 1 and 3 2 ; 1 3/5 (rotated by 90 in this image)


Non-Https Image Link

Non-Https Image Link


AKA 3 4 ; 1 1 and 3 4 ; 1 3/7 (typical case of unfeasable cycloid ; rotated by 45 in this image)

In general ... with pos ... all inspins patterns are feasable whereas antispin patterns have a rule of feasability : abs(Theta1)<abs(Theta2)/2.

Why ? I'll explain this later because i don't have the right schematics yet ... (sorry blush).

Ok we have now our elementary patterns ... defined by Theta1 Theta2 ; Rho1 Rho2. If we want to take only a part of the full cycle of these patterns ... we should add another number in the definition : d (for division). 0>d>=1 and d=1 means that we take the full cycle of the pattern. So far we have Theta1 Theta2 ; Rho1 Rho2 ; d for the definition.


As the brain have two independent hemispheres ... there 2 processes of motion creation in spinning fields.

One of these is the process of patterns superposition with the two hands/pos ... which refers to the parallel/simultaneous information treatment of the left part of the brain. The results of this process is what is commonly call : Hybrids.

The other one is the process of elementary patterns assembly (obviously drawn with one po) ..; which refers to the serial/sequencial information treatment of the rightpart of the brain. he results of this process is what is commonly call : CAPs.

A CAP ... or complex pattern ... must as well be cyclic ... and can be the assembly of 2 (or more) elementary patterns iterated one (or more) time.


Here are some examples of CAP of 2 elementary patterns iterated one time :


Non-Https Image Link


The famous 1 0 ; 1 3/4 ; 1/2 & -1 4 ; 1 3/4 ; 1/2 from the yuta move analysis post.


Non-Https Image Link


AKA 1 0 ; 1 3/4 ; 3/4 & -1 4 ; 1 3/4 ; 3/4 (with another starting position)


Non-Https Image Link


AKA 1 3 ; 1 3/4 ; 2/3 & -1 3 ; 1 3/4 ; 2/3 (with another starting position)

I let you think about CAPs with more than 2 elementary patterns and more than one iteration (i'll try to add some of these with my explanation later).

Also think that ... as these CAP are patterns ... it is also allowed to put them in the hybridisation/parallel/simultaneous process to see what happen.

As i said ... later some extra explanations ... and some complements ... about the notation and the model.

If some notions need to be clarified ... do not hesitate to reply wink !!

Topette ("See you" as we say in my area in France) grin !!


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Danny_
GOLD Member since Aug 2005

Danny_

.
Location: Brighton

Total posts: 95
Posted:Nice, Zaltymbunk!

I disagree on some things:
The cycloids are close enough to being possible. Not all in-spins are possible - noteably when theta1 is almost equal to theta2. And the feasibility of antispins is generally true, but the rule can be broken (although, only briefly).

I too have been modelling poi movements, but my notation is a little different. I've found it easier to have the poi rotation (theta2) referenced against the ground, not against the arm. But here isn't the place for detail on that.

Good explanation of a CAP though!


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Cycloids are possible, thanks for posting it, I hadn't thought about them in ages!! The prospinspin versions require a little point iso at each point which can be achieved by speeding up the arm movement, easiest to do in a bf wallplane flower.

The antispin versions are line isolations.


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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Originally Posted By: Danny_The cycloids are close enough to being possible. Not all in-spins are possible - noteably when theta1 is almost equal to theta2. And the feasibility of antispins is generally true, but the rule can be broken (although, only briefly).

Ok that's interesting ... could you give me a few examples of those not possible inspins ... and of the rule breaking antispins ... by using my convention of notation or yours ?!?

Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonThe antispin versions are line isolations.

What do you mean by line isolations ? Which point ?


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:horizontal and vertical line isolations are essentially point isolated cateye patterns.

Point isolated antispin patterns can make diamonds, triangles, etc.

Edit: I don't have much time to post now, so sorry for my very basic explanation, if you need more info, fire a question and I'll clarify what I was saying when I've got more time. grin

EDITED_BY: Mother_Natures_Son (1248185428)


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Has anyone played with doing CAPS from front to back? That is, from in front of you in a semi-circle from front to back. Um....

Instead of the left and right halves of a flower, using the top and bottom halves? It has some interesting arm-bending possibilities and ties in nicely to Olive's weird 3D spinning that was mentioned here, if only because some of them require you to have both arms behind your back at the same time.

Also of interest, and I think maybe technically a CAP, is using only half a flower movement with one arm and changing directions with it every pi revolutions (like a regular CAP). The other arm goes the full 2pi as normal.

Anyway, not sure any of this is anything revolutionary, but is what I have been playing with recently (read: last couple days).


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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mike_juggles
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

mike_juggles

Controversial Penguin
Location: East Troy, Wisconsin

Total posts: 8
Posted:As far as CAP's go, I think a spinner just need to take his knowledge of moves and put pieces of a couple together to make something new.

If you wanna push then I'm ready to push, but if you're pullin' while I'm pushin' then why'd you ask me to push?

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Danny_
GOLD Member since Aug 2005

Danny_

.
Location: Brighton

Total posts: 95
Posted:Quote: Ok that's interesting ... could you give me a few examples of those not possible inspins ... and of the rule breaking antispins ... by using my convention of notation or yours ?!?

Using purely your notation, to avoid confusion.

Remembering that theta2 is the second number; if theta 1 is 1, then theta2 being anything between 0 and 2 is impossible. The upper limit might be a bit lower than 2, I'm not sure. As an example. 1 0.5 ; 1 1 is impossible. Looking at the lower end, 1 0 ; 1 1 is nearly possible, and if included for just half a spin, is as good as possible. As soon as theta2 is increased from 0 (with all other numbers = 1), it becomes impossible, and it isn't until it gets to about 2 it becomes possible.

However, taking the example of 1 1 ; 1 1, note that a similar visual effect is possible by doing an assembly: 0 1 ; 1 1 ; 1 & 1 0 ; 1 1 ; 1

Quote: antispin patterns have a rule of feasability : abs(Theta1)<abs(Theta2)/2.

Examples of breaking the antispin rules? I'm struggling to remember what I was on about, but I think I had in mind line isolations: 1 -2 ; 1 1 which is possible, but is not stable, so cannot be repeated (perfectly) indefinitely. 1 -1 ; 1 1 is possible, and stable (with the correct starting position!)



As an afterthought, the lack of consideration of tension in the string / chain / sock means quite a few possible patterns deviate from their ideal form.

EDITED_BY: Danny_ (1251106192)


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ligeiassong


stranger


Total posts: 9
Posted:Awesome Zaltymbunk!! Thank you for the info on these! Have been wondering what this move is for a long time! Off to spin spin spin smile Thank you!

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Zaltymbunk


Zaltymbunk

newbie
Location: Toulouse, France

Total posts: 38
Posted:Ok Danny thanks for your answer ... finally we are nearly agree ... as i consider feasible a pattern which is possible with ANY starting position with pos.

With this consideration ... i keep the pos antispin motions rule of feasibility as abs(Theta1)<abs(Theta2)/2

... which exclude the 1 -1 and 1 -2 patterns (not possible in ALL cases of starting positions) and also patterns like 2 -2, 2 -3, 3 -3, 2 -4, 3 -4, 4 -4, 3 -5, 4-5, 5 -5 etc.

And i would add a rule of feasibility for pos inspins motions ... abs(Theta2)>abs(Theta1)/2

... which does not exclude patterns like 1 1 and 1 2 but patterns like 2 1 (not possible in ALL cases of starting positions), 3 1, 4 1, 4 2, 5 1, 5 2 etc.

Notice that these rules of feasibility are used only for the composition of two circles ... i.e for theta1 and theta2 which are not equal to zero ... as it is obvious that the 0 # and # 0 patterns are fully feasible (read : # as any relative number).

According to my simulator and my practical tests ... i would say that it sounds something like that in the main lines ... but maybe i have miss something in the details.


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Derek_Faughn
PLATINUM Member since May 2008

DerekJF85
Location: Garland, TX

Total posts: 101
Posted:CAPs are when you break down fractions of 2 or more moves (antispin, extension, linear stuff, etc) and putting them into a pattern which those moves connect, and you can continously repeat them.

"Dream as you will live forever, and live as you will die today"
James Dean

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