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Gresk
SILVER Member since Mar 2009

Gresk

stranger
Location: Cyprus

Total posts: 13
Posted:I had a bit of difficulty working out where to place this post within the forums so I figured that, well, Spiral Wraps are a beginner move and so here I am. Admins feel free to move should it be deemed a requirement.

The background is this, I've been spinning poi now for 5 months, all unlit. I practice almost daily as my suntan session (I live in Cyprus) and I think I am now ready to light up. Unfortunately there are only 2 other fire spinners on island that I know of (but don't know socially) and so I will not have an accomplished fire tutor at hand.

I have researched extensively all risks and have everything set, both myself and my frau are aware of fire safety drills etc and pretty much everything from posts to movies has been taken into account.

I've been practicing a structured flow session, little movement and footwork to minise risk and only rotating through moves that I am comfortable with. My poi sessions often exceed 45 minutes during which time I will knock myself with the poi heads maybe a total of 2 or 3 times.

I'm going to be doing my first burn on the 28th June and I am a sucker for spiral wraps. I'm going to be using fresh 63mm Monkey Ball Heads fueled with straight up lamp oil, (no mixing with white gas). I have 3" Kevlar chain guards that will be pre-dampened with water protecting the lower parts of my chains. I'm going to be 30cm from the sea (incase I panic I can then just dive straight in) and have the most trusted person in the world as my fire safety so I know that she will be 100% focussed on the task at hand.

So the question is this smile When reaching the centre of my wrap (The change point where the spiral reverses) what is the risk of fuel transfer to my hands from the poi head. As there generally tends to be a 'bounce' as the poi heads hit your hands I wondered if any residual fuel left after spinning off would likely spill out of the poi head and set my hands on fire.

I'm probably over worrying but I haven't seen an answer yet that satisfies my concerns specifically regarding fuel transfer from poi to body when spinning.

Many thanks in advance.


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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:The risk of burns has more to do with the hot metallic objects. If you do spiral wraps you will get burned at some point.

I also do a lot of spiral wraps and have been burned, despite being quite proficient with them.

I would strongly recommend against doing spiral wraps for your first burn. Try getting used to the fire first, the last thing you need is panicking right as the poi get close to your hands, there is a big risk of getting seriously burned unless you're comfortable with what you're doing.


To answer your question in regard to fuel transfer, it really depends on the kind of fuel you're using... I have a very high flashpoint fuel and as such it wouldn't ignite so well anyway, a small amount does get in your skin but whether or not is enough to burn or the flame will transfer is up to your fuel.

If you eventually do attempt them, try not to do so when the poi have been spinning slowly because this causes the metallic components at the bottom to heat up and will burn you.


The sea won't help you a whole lot, you'll have a good set of 2nd degree burns by the time you get there anyway, its much better just to avoid the spiral wraps until you're quite comfortable with both the flames AND doing spiral wraps with your fire rig.

Good luck and stay safe...


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Gresk
SILVER Member since Mar 2009

Gresk

stranger
Location: Cyprus

Total posts: 13
Posted:To be honest I really don't think there will be any panic on the day as I'm comfortable working with high risk equipment, flame, blades, weapons systems (I'm in the Army, not a weapons fanatic btw) but I have to ensure I plan for every eventuality.

I have been training with my fire rig for the last 2 months almost exclusively and believe it or not I've already picked up small burns from the chains already without even setting them on fire (Reminder to self - Do not leave poi in the blazing sunshine) so I do believe that my spiral wraps are as good as I'm going to get. I have only planned to do one in my routine, again to minimise risk. I also practice tangle drills daily with those moves that would really cause a lot of damage if they went wrong.

I am in no way however neglecting your advice and firmly agree that there is a lot of difference in lit and unlit poi, weight, sound, light, heat, natural instinctive fear of fire all of which as you rightly point out in the comments about being comfortable with fire as all are factors of consideration, and I thank you for that. Having provided the answer to fuel transfer to the hands you have reduced any real worries I had.

I think in conclusion that I will only know when I'm there, its not a performance for anyone so there is no pressure for me to do anything that I don't want to. I have seen too many videos online entitled 'my first burn' and thoughts.... "Holy crap you most certainly shouldn't be playing with fire yet" and that is what has driven me to ensure I have sufficient ability to control my poi before lighting them up.

It's all going to be filmed so if I turn into a human fireball well at least I'll be able to see where I went wrong lol.

EDITED_BY: Gresk (1245319964)
EDIT_REASON: added content


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:If you do it more towards the end of the burn (ie, with smaller flames as the poi start to burn all the fuel) it will probably also be less likely to cause a problem.

Just a thought, I am not sure where in your routine you want to place it.

Maybe do the routine without it and try afterwards when the poi are nearly dead? You seem fairly confident and seem to be preparing well, so do what your own judgement suggests. Also, work out an alternative move in case you decide on the night that this is a bad idea or something.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:I agree with aston, do it somewhere from the mid to the end of the spin and you will have no trouble with fuel transfer. Your chains have guards, and monkey heads dont have exposed metal at the bottom , so you should be fine.


A tip, in case you tangle around your wrists/hands... if you are unable to untangle easily, and are at risk of getting burned, start slowly turning, with your hands outstretched in front of you. The turning action pulls/angles the poi out from under your hands, so the flame does not come up directly onto you. If necessary then lower to the ground and have your safety put them out with a damp safety blanket, making sure not to press the poi against you at any point.

nick taught me that ages ago, and though i have not had to use it myself, i have seen it come in handy for others...

have fun!


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:hmmm

bad news: whenever I really managed to not burn myself at all, it's been a rather ... slow performance ...

good news: lamp oil burns on a rather high flashpoint with a low temperature, so you can relax... it's not as if your hands will fall off or something... you could take your staff and do fire-next-to-skin.... all that'd happen would be some singed hair and a slight skin irritation...

the longer you wait into the burn, the lesser the fuel but also the hotter that stuff is getting... any wraps involving contact with fabric (shirt or pants) should be held towards the end of the burn (when there is less fluid) any wraps involving contact with skin should be held rather towards the beginning of the burn... thus, it depends on how much metal you have in fixed contact to the wick... metal transfers heat quite well, only screws, keyrings, swivels and maybe tubing of the poi will be getting quite hot...

that said: you're playing with fire, man - I mean, what is this??

wink

devil


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:A slow corkscrew will heat the metal up hugely, FireTom... but maybe your version of slow and mine are completely different things.

I didn't realise you had the kevlar protectors, they'll help hugely.

Try practicing getting your poi in a tangled mess around your hands from a spiral wrap and then dropping them off your hands. Not 100% certain what BansheeCats description exactly means, I'd need a visual, but some sort of backup plan would be good.

Now, for a tip that isn't related to safety at all.. you said you were going to do it at the beach. Be really careful about getting sand on your heads... it can really tear up the kevlar if it gets and in there, will increase wear on your heads quite significantly.

Good luck, Gresk. smile


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:umm not sure w.o.e. you are referring to, MNS as this is almost exactly what I said: over time (and with slow moves) the metal will heat up, thus it might be a good idea to do the wraps more to the beginning of the burn.... shrug wink

However, I am not sure whether it had been mentioned:

Gresk... why are wraps your concern anyway? Are you getting paid for that first burn by the local firefighters or hospital (as in "kids don't do that at home")... If these wraps are your worry, maybe you simply don't do them on your first burn...

get used to the sensation of playing with fire, do some basic moves forward, backwards... or is it that are you trying to loose your (fire) virginity in a superAllstars orgy?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom
bad news: whenever I really managed to not burn myself at all, it's been a rather ... slow performance ...


I assumed that this related to spiral wraps since thats what the thread is all about and you said it was during a slow performance that you wouldnt be burning yourself at all. In relation to spiral wraps if you're doing quite slow movements then it will heat up.

The metal can actually cool down to some degree while twirling them, so its not as though the heat just continues to rise the longer they're exposed to flame. If the flame is moving its not usually large enough to displace the loss of heat.

If you leave your poi hang then they will heat up considerably and will definitely burn you. But then if you whirl them around in circles they will not continue to get hotter, they can actually cool to the point where they will no longer burn you. Give it a try if you like. (Not testing whether or not it'll burn you at the beginning, but test it later on if you like, even just after you've extinguished them.)

The flames are smaller at the end of the burn, also decreasing the rate they're heated...

Having said that you still don't want the metal touching your skin for very long at all at any point, so its good to have your spiral wraps bouncing away as soon as they're wrapped up, timing is crucial and I would not recommend anyone try spiral wraps unless they consider themselves very, very proficient in their use.

He stated he wasn't getting paid a few times, Tom. I know exactly where he's coming from, spiral wraps are quite addictive, I don't think its due to an egotist boost.


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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:hmn, i shall try to describe the safety tip I suggested a bit better... maybe we can convince Nick to do a video example! It is a good one to know.

To see what i mean, try this: With your unlit practice poi, stand with them shortened up, or tangled around your hands, with just a couple inches dangling. Imagine, if the poi heads are below the hands, as they are in this neutral, still posture, the flames would come up and burn you.

So, try turning slowly in one direction, with your hands a bit in front of your body. Watch how as you turn, the centrifical motion pulls the poi away from the body, so they are extended out from the hands, not below them. So, if they were on fire, the flames would come up and still not touch you.

Obviously, this only works if you still have at least an inch or two of chain left untangled...

From this position you are not being burned, so sometimes you can then think clearer, and have a good look at whether you can untangle on your own and keep spinning, or not.

If not, keep turning, and slowly lower your hands to the ground, with the poi resting out in front of them. Then your safety person smothers the poi with a damp fire blanket.

Hopefully that is clearer!

as i said, never needed by me, yet, but just last week i saw a beginner with fire panik when tangled around the hands, , and we got her to do exactly this, which prevented her from being burned. Useful!


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:that's a great advice, Andrea clap if the poi get tangled and stop motion, keep the arms extended and turn the body whilst slowly bringing them down to the ground...

quite simple and effective smile

MNS this is not what I said - bottom line has been: you play with fire, so you might get burned at some point. Personally I haven't met a firespinner that hasn't... burned.... her/himself.... ever. wink it's part of the nature of the game, wich is why some ppl look at us as if we were 'freaks'

peace


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gresk
SILVER Member since Mar 2009

Gresk

stranger
Location: Cyprus

Total posts: 13
Posted:Some excellent advice and I can't thank you all enough, I think the thing that is difficult to express through forums is the nature of oneself and how it relates to this thread subject, I'll try my best.

Originally Posted By: FireTomumm
Gresk... why are wraps your concern anyway? Are you getting paid for that first burn by the local firefighters or hospital (as in "kids don't do that at home")... If these wraps are your worry, maybe you simply don't do them on your first burn...

get used to the sensation of playing with fire, do some basic moves forward, backwards... or is it that are you trying to loose your (fire) virginity in a superAllstars orgy?

As MNS said it is not a case of ensuring that I can perform a spiral wrap on my first burn, more so that I don't want my first burn to be a concentration exercise as I believe that if I'm continually thinking about not performing a move then if muscle memory takes me into it then I'm more likely to make a mistake. Continually when in practice flow I'm inclined to drift into auto pilot, call it meditation if you will and I end up performing certain transitions without thinking about it, one of which contains a link into a spiral wrap.

That said, don't get me wrong I'm not going to be treating the first time I light up as a flow session but also, as mentioned, I don't want it to be a fully structured 'think, think, think' exercise as I will not get any enjoyment out of it.

I don't know how to say it, I'm no expert at poi but neither am I uncoordinated or frivolous when it comes to carrying out something potentially dangerous. It's maybe an obsessive compulsive thing on my behalf (I'm not taking the mickey out of the disorder btw as I honestly think that it is inherant in everyone to some degree) in that I'm a planner, prior planning and preparation prevents p*** poor performance smile

I should maybe have phrased it to ask simply 'can the fuel transfer to your hands on a spiral wrap?'

All posts in this thread have helped extremely with filling that void that is/was the unknown, I also believe that maybe this thread will help those who have been poi-ing with fire for a while but never tried spiral wraps, again fearing the unknown.

Maybe I'll dust off the tripod and get filming prior to lighting up, I think if others can gauge the compentence of a spinner then maybe it makes it easier in determining a response.


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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:I should work on mine. I never actually do spiral wraps. wink

I just do a simultaeneous double hand wrap (that is, the poi are not actually wrapping but I catch both heads on the opposite hand and reverse their direction).


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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