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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:stone, a sydney man recently killed his wife daughter and three grand children, all without a gun.

i agree with you that tighter gun control would probably be a good idea, but simply mentioning mass killings that involved firearms doesnt make the argument.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Majestik, I just wondering if there is a cover up. Perhaps, even some admission that putting semi-automatic assault weapons in the hands of civilians might not have been the brightest thing to do seeing how often they are used in massacres.

In the early reports Heinze made a call to the emergency 911 line that led police to the New Hope mobile park Saturday morning where they found bodies of seven people and two others injured, reportedly the victims of a shooting. So whats happening?

Most of the media stories, including the ABC, ended their reports with links to previous gun massacres like the following: The killing at the New Hope trailer park, is the latest in a spate of mass killings in the United States. In August, a Pennsylvania man embittered by what he described as constant rejection by women, walked into a gym and opened fire on a dance class, killing three women before turning the gun on himself. In an online blog uncovered after the murders, he documented in chilling detail his plans to carry out the shooting, and even described how he carried out a trial run of the killings. Earlier, in April, a spate of mass shootings horrified Americans. On April 3, Jiverly Voong barricaded a civic center in upstate New York, killing 13 people, most of them recent immigrants, before shooting himself. Days later, a Washington state a man shot and killed his five children, between the ages of seven and 16, then turned the gun on himself after his wife told him she was leaving him. Then on April 7, a gunman shot dead his wife, daughter and two other people before killing himself in Greenhill, Alabama.

So the question remains, when is America going to take a stand and introduce legislation to reduce gun violence. As opposed to legislation that puts semi-automatic assault weapons into the hands of civilians?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:tomorrow? tongue2

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I'm not suspecting a cover up in this story, Stone. Time will tell the truth in this one.

Mr. M!!!! you, here!! wink The point in posting the massacres committed with firearms is to show people how many there are in such a short period of time. Obviously many are not aware of how much violent abuse of firearms there is.

People do kill (a number of) other people without guns - absolutely true statement. Only not remotely that frequently and in those large numbers as they do with firearms.

Personally I'm not saying that the devil lives in a gun, waiting to be unleashed. I'm saying that the US applies double standards when it comes to the protection of its citizens.

They require to write "objects are closer than they appear" in every rear mirror, but no warning about the misuse of a handgun to be found on them. They seem to consider most consumers as fools, but they fully trust them operating deadly weapons - it seems.

I understand when Lurch says:

Originally Posted By: LurchWhy on earth do you think it's acceptable to ask someone else to risk their life to save yours? That boggles my mind to be honest. If someone wants to risk theirs to save mine, that's great, I won't argue with them. But to ask.. no wait.. to expect someone to put their life on the line whenever you ask is beyond pompous. Yet people do it with the military, with law enforcement, and with EMS/Fire/Rescue every single day.

My answer: because you take the job and receive (tax payers) money for it! Every single hour on duty YOU get paid!

You have a problem with people raising expectations for that reason, consider changing your profession FIRST! Because - IMHO - you accept this. Taking the $ and not doing your duty... well... could be considered "fraud".

Originally Posted By: LurchThis is beyond guns, it's beyond some mystery fight that you think you're fighting against the corporate machine. It's about people, it's about their rights as a human. We have the right to be safe in our home. We have the right to live away from violence, and we have a right to protect ourselves when violence comes into our lives.

I'm not fighting a fight, Lurch. I'm part of a (silent) majority that raises their voices - like it or not.

You do "have the right for safety"... how so? Who or what gives you this right? I don't understand. Because you're paying your government? Do you yourself not trust your life and health on firefighters and medics?

I only see a whole bunch of inconsistency in your argumentation guys... Maybe the same you see on ours, but

you really believe that you could make a stand against your own or the Russian military? umm *humms: dream on...*

dG and Lurch: Do you support that countries like North Korea or Iran should not have WoMD? Or would you rather accept that the same standards you request for yourself should apply for nations?


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Groovy_Dream
Groovy_Dream

addict

Member Since: 26th May 2005
Total posts: 449
Posted:This video made me think of this thread:




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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:not sure what was more scary.... the vid or the comment "...good to see that nothing has changed..."

thanks for posting, Groovy smile


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:ye ye the odd shootout update:

article

Originally Posted By: APAn Army psychiatrist opened fire with two handguns at the Fort Hood Army post on Thursday, killing 12 and wounding 31 others, Army officials said, adding the suspect had not been killed as previously believed.

Authorities identified the suspected gunman as Major Nidal Malik Hasan, who had treated soldiers wounded in foreign wars preparing for foreign deployment at the post.

"Our investigation is ongoing but preliminary reports indicate that there was a single shooter," Lieutenant-General Robert Cone, Fort Hood's commanding officer, told a news conference. "The shooter is not dead but in custody in stable condition."

Cone said the suspect had been shot multiple times. He previously said the suspect was killed by police officers during the attack at the biggest military facility in the world.

Should be sufficient evidence to flatten the CCW argument... wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:Oh I knew this was going to pop up..

How does that possibly squash CCW? If anything it reinforces it. US Military bases that are stateside are pretty gun free. The only generally armed on base are the MP's (military police). That's not to say there aren't weapons, they just aren't supposed to pack them. Particularly because some people go nuts when they find out they're getting deployed.

It was a female cop that stopped this guy by shooting him. And you had a room full of trained soldiers who were all unarmed. The whole thing was over in 3 minutes.

I don't get why you prefer a cop arriving on scene minutes after the fact and dropping a suspect, to a civilian being able to at least have the chance to end it faster. Granted that doesn't apply much to a military base cause they're under orders not to carry. But the concept of this tragedy should carry over.


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:hmm - last time I checked the guards were carrying ... shrug and then you get a looney who somehow (in an "arms free - military base" laugh3 ) gets hold of a few handguns and starts shooting people... and they have to call the cops... (kind of ironic innit?) let's wait for that looney officer who goes on a spree in a police station and they (got to) wait for the army to move in...

You can see it from two sides - I guess - I for my part didn't expect you to change your opinion either... smile

for all the other questions you raised: we have been over this so many times that they got to be rhetorical smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Another day in America, another gun massacre

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:US bases stateside aren't much different from a small town. Most people don't carry on base, and sometimes it's under orders. MP (guards) carry obviously, and in this case Fort Hoods policing was contracted out to Department of Defense civilian police, not military personnel.

Like I said up there, the whole thing was done and over with in 3 minutes, that's a fast response time for anywhere.

It's not like the UK doesn't have enough problems with its legal system.. they gave out 40,000 'cautions' last year instead of actually doing any policework


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Lurch... would you do us a favor please?

Take a piece of wick and aim a bullet at it... would like to know whether that stuff is any good for it....

peace


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:wrong kinda kevlar my friend wink I have a vest anyways..

Maybe I *will* shoot an old wick, you kinda have me curious anyways.. phone books work remarkably well


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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I would say the yellow pages also burn quite well - only they are too heavy to spin and it's a one time gig only wink

pls kep us posted - there'sa "Kevlar and the war" threat on SC hug

beerchug


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Such
Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here
Member Since: 17th Sep 2008
Total posts: 253
Posted:Whoever said the guards carry guns is semi-correct. A lot of weapons carried on base are not loaded. In fact most of them I am pretty sure have no rounds in them at all.

Human

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Lurch
Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon
Member Since: 1st Nov 2003
Total posts: 929
Posted:You're a little off doppel. Guards most definitely carry, and are definitely loaded. Anyone in a police position who carries an empty weapon is an idiot, and asking for trouble.

General troops, when they're loading up to go overseas are usually unloaded though yes. But there isn't a reason for them to be locked and loaded stateside, and it would add another 20+ pounds per man which adds up quickly when you're flying guys by the hundreds


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Ringshadow
Ringshadow

journeyman
Location: SW Michigan, United States
Member Since: 31st Oct 2009
Total posts: 81
Posted:Criminals will get guns whether you outlaw them or not. If you don't believe me look at the crime rates in Washington DC, where even off duty cops can't have guns yet gun crimes are through the roof.

Sometimes regulation is more effective than prohibition.


Happiness is a skill, not a commodity
I have been kidnapped by hooping.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:which is why I've always supported enforcing more completely the laws that are already in place but perhaps loosely enforced

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Ringshadow
Ringshadow

journeyman
Location: SW Michigan, United States
Member Since: 31st Oct 2009
Total posts: 81
Posted:In my experience, people who want to get rid of guns are that way because they fear guns. And there's the problem of gun bans vs. the constitution as well.

My brother has four rifles and a hand gun. He open carries the hand gun around town. We live in Michigan so open carrying a firearm is completely legal. And you know what? Basically no one gives a damn. The only people who freak out are the people who don't understand the local laws, and once they do they mellow the hell out.

Prohibition doesn't work. It didn't work on alcohol, it isn't working on weed, it will never work on guns. The more you ban firearms the harder you're making it for law-abiding citizens, not criminals. If your logic worked Washington DC would be totally free of gun crimes but it's completely off the scale high.

The reality is, about 15K people a year die in gun related deaths in the United States. Know how many people die a year in auto accidents? Over 40K. Clearly, we must BAN ALL PRIVATELY OWNED CARS!

And while we're at it nearly a quarter million die a year from medical errors! BAN ALL DOCTORS!

Seriously. We can ramp this up real quick. You're more likely to be killed in a car accident or by your own doctor than a gun, two things which are a hell of a lot more regulated than guns if you think about it.


Happiness is a skill, not a commodity
I have been kidnapped by hooping.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: RingshodowThe reality is, about 15K people a year die in gun related deaths in the United States. Know how many people die a year in auto accidents? Over 40K. Clearly, we must BAN ALL PRIVATELY OWNED CARS!

Actually, I think the stats you quote is more likely to be 15,000 people over the age of 19 years old in the USA were killed by murder in 1991. Even then I suspect it is an gross underestimation.

If you are worried by the number of people killed in automobile accidents each year then you would know that the number could be significantly lower if mandatory seat belt legislation was introduced.









If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Ringshadow
Ringshadow

journeyman
Location: SW Michigan, United States
Member Since: 31st Oct 2009
Total posts: 81
Posted:Stone, I don't know where you live in the United States but it is the law to wear a seatbelt and cops around here will bust you for it without even thinking about it if they pull you over and you aren't wearing one, and will bust you further if you have kids and the kids aren't. How the cops enforce it where you are, who knows, but the states I've lived in recently ticket for it.

The 15K I quoted is actually a number I got from my brother, who's been advocating locally for the concealed carry ban for campuses to be lifted. He said it's yearly gun related deaths overall, minus suicides.


Happiness is a skill, not a commodity
I have been kidnapped by hooping.

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DarkEye
DarkEye

stranger

Member Since: 26th Nov 2009
Total posts: 4
Posted:glad im not in the US :S



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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ringshadow, fair enough, Its good that seat-belt laws are enforced in your state. It will help save many lives. Im not from the states, so I had to look up the seat-belt laws. They vary widely, with different states having different levels of regulation. Mostly it seems tokenism, and like gun regulation, there seems to be little commitment to reducing unnecessary deaths.

It all comes back to people objecting to seat-belt laws or gun regulation because any law is seen as an infringing on civil liberties. It is also falsely believed that that since deaths are caused by seat-belts in accidents, that the government has no right to legislate an activity (buckling up) that may cause a person's death in the hopes it will maybe save others. Go figure!

Its s similar story with guns. Most gun deaths are a result of accidents. For example, Ferrum student's death unusual: Accidents rarely involve non-hunters. On a more reassuring note, Medford school teacher loses again in bid to carry gun to school.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Ringshadow
Ringshadow

journeyman
Location: SW Michigan, United States
Member Since: 31st Oct 2009
Total posts: 81
Posted:Stone, I'm fine with teachers having guns. In fact, I think they should carry them. There's another statistic out there saying that one in ten teachers will be attacked by students in their career. Not cool. If they can't have guns, they should at least be allowed to carry tasers or mace. Not that I'm holding my breath for this to happen.

Mostly I just find all the reactionary stuff about this just... annoying. Of course I'm a future nuke worker so people blowing things out of proportion is just part of my day to day life. I had a friend who didn't realize there was steam in nuke plants... Basically, yeah. I'm sorry if I seem really irritated but ill informed debaters make me facepalm. I mean if US gun laws are "license to murder" but only about 15K die a year from guns, then are a doctor's license to practice a "license to genocide" because over 200K die a year from medical errors? Silly. Just silly.


Happiness is a skill, not a commodity
I have been kidnapped by hooping.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: Ringshadow..I mean if US gun laws are "license to murder" but only about 15K die a year from guns, then are a doctor's license to practice a "license to genocide" because over 200K die a year from medical errors? Silly. Just silly.

For a start, the number you quote of 15,000 underestimates the number of gun deaths per year. The actual figure is more like 60,000 deaths per year, of which most are preventable.

Doctors dont kill 200,000 people a year. Thats the figure quoted for the number of people that die from in-hospital medical errors. Perhaps thats why President Barack Obama is trying to reform the U.S. healthcare system. Unfortunately, it seems that the people that advocate more and more gun rights are the same people that are trying to block medical reform. Its also nave to suggest that because less people die from guns compared to medical errors, then the number of gun deaths is somehow acceptable.

The bottom line is that a civilised society tries to reduce unnecessary death from all areas. This includes car accidents, medical errors and guns. And guns in school, are definitely not cool.





If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneUnfortunately, it seems that the people that advocate more and more gun rights are the same people that are trying to block medical reform

Interesting observation.

Ummm yea..guns in school. now that'd be a way for substitute teachers go gain instant respect. Walk into the classroom with a Desert Eagle strapped onto their hip.
Or better yet, a big honking shotgun to clip into the blackboard-side shotgun rack. Kind like this thing , but vertical.


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Stout, I dont know if I would call it an interesting observation perhaps sad is a better description. Anyhow, I picked up the observation while I was watching TV interviews with the gun slingers (open carry) that showed up when Obama was on the hustings.


White House Takes On Gun Lobby's Health Care Reform Attacks.

You might not necessarily think that health care reform would end up in the crosshairs of the gun lobby. But you'd be wrong. Gun Owners of America have been raging against the Senate health care bill for all sorts of imagined threats to the Second Amendment, and now the White House has taken notice..

Gun Lobby Mobilizes Against Health Reform By Claiming Obama Administration Will Issue No Guns Decree.

The "armed-citizen" is the backbone of the country, dont ya no?, u all!


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Sad would fit nicely. Paranoid even better.

I've never heard of the GOA before I suppose they probably side with Kellerman on the idea that guns are a public health issue. wink

Really, it's self reliance that's the backbone of the country, that guy with the sign is just a gun industry shill and any step towards anything that even remotely resembles socialism instantly gets the panties of groups like GOA into one huge collective knot. First, it's health care for poor people, the next it'll be standing in line wearing a Chairman Mao jacket hoping for a ration of government issued gruel just like us commie hordes in Canada.


Pssst,,,that's Y'all


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Stout, Im not sure about the GOA guys siding with Kellerman. Though, you have to love the irony in the wellness and prevention program inserted the new Public Health Services Act. It allows the government to offer lower premiums to employers who live healthier lifestyles ie. lives with out guns. Y'all. Did I get it right? Cheers.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:^^^^LOL. so the gun lobby is interpreting that to be another form of gun tax (ie if you carry a gun, you and the people around you will cost society more through health treatment therefore pay more if you are riskier).

smokers and old people already pay more health insurance = why shouldnt American gun slingers?


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