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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/01/air.france.brazil/index.html


An Air France A330-200 with 228 people aboard has disappeared en-route from GRU (Rio de Janiero) to CDG (Paris- Charles de Gaulle). The only information available at this time is that the aircraft was traveling in an area with thunderstorms and that prior to loss of contact, the aircraft sent an automated signal indicating loss of pressure and electrical fault. No wreckage has been found yet. It has been far too long at this point to hope that the aircraft could appear at any airport with a failed radio transmitter or something silly like that; it would have run out of fuel long ago.

The aircraft was an Airbus A330-200 that entered into service 18 April 2005 and had 18,870 flight hours. Its last maintenance check was on 16 April of this year.

My heart goes out to all those who lost people on board.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Felex
SILVER Member since Jun 2009

Felex

Destroyer of worlds and ooo shiny.
Location: In my own head, United Kingdom

Total posts: 268
Posted:It is strange when something like that happens. Everyone including my self feels deeply for the families involved.

A couple of things to note
Where I live in Lincolnshire The Environment Agency air quality reports, have revealed traffic-fuelled air pollution annually claims the lives of 291 people. [by the way its very rural]. Also a average of 79 [last time a checked] people are killed on Lincolnshire roads a year.

Flying is safer than living in a rural area down the eastern side of England.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I side the mourning.... and hope that the guys had a wonderful time in Brazil, nobody rushed to the airport to catch the plane and they had little time to realize what was going to happen...

Sidenote: On my recent flight from Bali to Bangkok (Air Asia), we had quite blue skies with thunderstorms in the very distance. However, the nature of air (in a stormy environment and especially above islands) is quite unpredictable.

So we crossed medium turbulences. A few minutes later, the stewardess announced that we'd cross more and should fasten the seat belts. Only a few seconds later, it started and turned into the worst experience I ever had in over 20yrs of flying. The initial rattling I've been used to - but suddenly the plane nose-dived to almost 45 downwards. We were sitting on the wings - and it looked pretty dramatic already.

The passengers in the back started screaming in panic. Their view down the aisle must have been quite sensational.

It lasted almost a minute or a bit more and I'm not sure how much altitude we've lost in this period. But the feelings of this are still quite imprinted in my memory.

After that - upon approaching Bangkok airport - I've never experienced such a landing maneuvre ever: with full blown flaps, the pilot was dragging the plane into a full turn to get in line with the runway... he must have had a worse day (I really hope) and then we parked right next to the inspection and repair hangar...

All this time: not a single word from the cockpit.

I feel that airlines - as to save petrol - are not giving enough tolerance to the pilots (and sufficient training) in order to avoid hazarduous regions and to fly in "safer" altitudes.

Sorry, it's not really on topic - just came to mind...

meditate to the friends and relatives of those, lost.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:I heard that Lost was based on this accident frown

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Suspected that Air France airrplane broke apart in mid-air

....


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FreakyHair


stranger


Total posts: 18
Posted:This is really quite upsetting, one of the passegers was an 11 year old that went to a local school, he was on the plane without his parents or family frown

I have never liked fyig for many reasons, mainly for the fear of something like this happening to me. This accident has just fueled my fear so much that the next two years that I am travelling I will end up going overland across most of the world.

I can't imagine what it must have been like for the passengers or crew, or the families..

I have heard that extreme turbulence is far from rare.

my heart goes out to all those lost..


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: APOfficials with knowledge of the investigation and independent analysts all stressed they don't know why a plane that seemed to be flying normally crashed just minutes after the pilot messaged that he was entering an area of extremely dangerous storms.

my advice: don't enter when responsible for 227 people, whose lives depend on your judgement and skills...

Freaky hair - always a tragedy when children involved... poor guy has spent the last moments without anyone he knew...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: AP(...)The French agency investigating the disaster, meanwhile, said airspeed instruments were not replaced as the maker recommended before the plane disappeared in turbulent weather nearly a week ago during a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris with 228 people aboard.

(...)

The investigation is increasingly focused on whether external instruments may have iced over, confusing speed sensors and leading computers to set the plane's speed too fast or slow a potentially deadly mistake in severe turbulence.

Airbus recommended that all its airline customers replace instruments that help measure speed and altitude, known as Pitot tubes, on the A330, the model used for Flight 447, said Paul-Louis Arslanian, the head of the agency.

"They hadn't yet been replaced" on the plane that crashed, said Alain Bouillard, head of the French investigation.

Air France issued a statement Saturday saying it began replacing the monitors on the Airbus A330 model on April 27 after an improved version became available.

The statement stressed the recommendation to change the monitor "allows the operator full freedom to totally, partially or not at all apply it." When safety is at issue, the aircraft maker puts out a mandatory service bulletin followed up by an airworthiness directive, not a recommendation.

The Air France statement said that icing of the monitors at high altitude has led at times to loss of needed flying information, but only a "small number" of incidents linked to the monitors had been reported.

Air France has already replaced the Pitots on another Airbus model, the 320, after its pilots reported similar problems with the instrument, according to an Air France air safety report filed by pilots in January and obtained by The Associated Press.

The report followed an incident in which an Air France flight from Tokyo to Paris reported problems with its airspeed indicators similar to those believed to have been encountered by Flight 447. In that case, the Pitot tubes were found to have been blocked by ice.

The same report says Air France decided to increase the inspection frequency for its A330 and A340 jets' Pitot tubes, but that it had been waiting for a recommendation from Airbus before installing new Pitots.

I'm speechless... possibly mind over matter - once again.

meditate


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Felex
SILVER Member since Jun 2009

Felex

Destroyer of worlds and ooo shiny.
Location: In my own head, United Kingdom

Total posts: 268
Posted:It just keeps getting worse.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So the update:

1) We have no idea what brought the plane down. There is talk of pitot tubes and recommended service bulletins that Airbus put out and that AF was in the middle of implementing at the time. There is no clear evidence that icing of the pitot tubes brought down AF447. Many other planes have had problems with those tubes and not crashed. It may have been wholly unrelated. All we know is that the tubes on this aircraft hadn't been replaced yet.

A recommendation is different from an airworthiness directive where the manufacturer says that your airplane is not airworthy until a given modification is made.

2) I can't think of how a faulty pitot tube causes a plane to break apart in mid-air. It could conceivably make a plane crash, but not break up.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Mike

a)greed - we don't know exactly what brought the plane down. might/ not have been the tubes... problems had been reported, AF began to exchange them.... (for what reason ever) already since April 27th... (which is little more than 2 months ago)... many other planes that reported problems might not have encountered such violent storms, yet they reported and the Atlantic is a quite dangerous environment.

a negative airworthyness directive might imediately ground ALL planes of that particular type - or fitted with this particular part - at least for flights from and to in Europe (a mere insurance issue)..

b)efore the flight recorders have been found, nobody can tell anything for certian.

the pilot engaged the storm in full confidence of his capabilities and the plane's integrity... all events prior finalled in the desaster that claimed 228 lives.... and as it feels to me, ONE reason is because pilots don't have enough leeway to circumnavigate such areas...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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johndhaive
GOLD Member since Jan 2009

johndhaive

Kebab Embalmer
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, Philippines

Total posts: 316
Posted:SO sad about the news... I also saw the movie Passengers this morning, it was about a plane crash with passengers thought they survived but actually roamed the Earth as wandering ghosts who cannot find peace of their death.

And I am travelling to Philippines this June 13... I am actually scared and worried and at the same time so excited. Hakuna Matata then...


Tam tam tam cheketitamtam, ketumpantam, ketumpan kete kete kete, tam tam tam ketumpanketey!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom

the pilot engaged the storm in full confidence of his capabilities and the plane's integrity... all events prior finalled in the desaster that claimed 228 lives.... and as it feels to me, ONE reason is because pilots don't have enough leeway to circumnavigate such areas...

Well, several other planes traversed the same region without a problem. I wonder if the plane got a large-sized hailstone in the cockpit windows, enough to incapacitate both pilot and F/O.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:you see there is always more than one event that causes such a tragedy, it's always the chain of events that lead up to it.

Even if there's a huge hailstone, the autopilot would continue to fly and as the signals indicate, a series of trouble happened just prior to the event, including malreadings of instruments, disengagement of the autopilot, loss of electricity and cabin pressure (which is why some people speculate on the plane braking apart in mid-air)

the details we only know when blackboxes will be recovered, for certian I only know that IF the plane wouldn't have been in that area, most likely nothing would have happened...

I'm flying from Bali to Bangkok tomorrow, Thai airways... inshallah

meditate

smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Originally Posted By: the west.com.auA French couple is lucky to be alive today after not being able to board the doomed flight of Air France flight 447. The couple, medical professor Claude Jaffiol and wife, Amina, tried desperately to get on the plane that would later disappear into the Atlantic ocean.

Its miraculous we should have been on the plane said Claude. The couple were in Brazil and decided to cut their trip short and return to the French city of Montpellier. Claude explained that he had been in Rio de Janeiro for a seminar and decided to stay a little longer for some tourism. They decided to leave a little earlier than planned.

Despite trying everything they could to get on the earlier flight, they were turned down because the flight was full.

Weve had an amazing stroke of luck. After awhile we were afraid, and our thoughts are with those who were in the plane, his wife Amina said.

As sad as this tragedy is, the only good news that is ever going to come out of this is stories like this of people who are lucky to be alive today because of some random chance.

"random chance"...

This is exactly what I figure: when you do everything against the odds - and catch that flight...

Initially I wanted to stay two more weeks here in Bali... and only then final to Kaliningrad beginning of July... makes me ponder "which of my choices had been the right one"? (sorry if I appear selfish enough to post my ridiculous thoughts here)

My compassion goes to those who lost their beloved ones...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:the black box is only sending signals for another week or so - after this it is quite impossible to find the wreckage and to every clarify what happened on board, subsequently to ever find out what brought down the plane.

All that is clear now is that the bodies suffered multiple fractions and that there has been no water in the lungs - meaning that they died before they hit the water. So it's very much likely that the plane broke apart in mid-air.

After Air France pilots threatened with strike at least two more seonsors (responsible for measuring air speed) have been exchanged. Not sure about the sensors of other airlines...

Going to fly to Bangkok today... smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:totally have to correct my previous post:

black boxes are found and en route to France...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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aston
SILVER Member since Dec 2007

aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa

Total posts: 4061
Posted:Yeah. Quite lucky to actually find the wreckage.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:*bump*

the investigation is still ongoing... it is said that nobody on board was realizing what was going on until the crash happened... whilst that is a solace for family and friends I fail to understand how that is possible...

the plane crashed after stalling in a thunderstorm - means it first went up up up and then down.... - can't fathom that nobody felt what was about to happen... umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomit is said that nobody on board was realizing what was going on until the crash happened... whilst that is a solace for family and friends I fail to understand how that is possible...


They may not have known they were going down, but prior to impact, the aircraft banked 60. The steepest bank a commercial airliner is permitted to perform is about 30. Most pilots will tell you that they'd never go over 25 with passengers aboard. That had to be TERRIFYING.

But I do not enjoy thinking about what it must have been like at that moment.

My suspicion is that pilot error will be found to be the cause.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Mike we once had ~ a 20 (sitting on the wings) the entire back of the plane was screaming, my gf and I were holding hands. while my temperature was going through the roof, she was frozen.

It seem to have lasted an eternity, but might only have been a few.

A stall from 10.000 ft can't go unnoticed by crew nor passengers...

They already say it's a pilot error, but imho that's frigid. In that weather a pilot is only as good as his instruments and it seems they left him in this moment...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:A pilot is trained for loss of instruments, including airspeed.

I'm told that in the A330, when airspeed is unavailable, set engines to 80%N1 and nose-up 15. Other pilots have been put in an identical situation in the sim since the accident and successfully averted the stall. It appears from what I hear that some of the actions taken by the clue were not the recommended responses to the situation.

That's rough on their families and on their memories.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:that said: were these pilots rookies? there must have been other things preventing a proper reaction, no?

an accident may never be determined by that one isolated moment but more by a chain of events...

however, it taught me one thing: never rush to catch a plane... meditate


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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