the best smiles are the ones you lead to
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
Written by :FireTom
We have presented sufficient scientific data and studies that unmistakeably prove the arguments of NRA and gun owners to be erroneous. We have presented enough evidence that ridicule the *need of guns for self defence*.
Written by :Firetom
We have tried to explain that "second hand sales" of guns performed without proper background checks raise the number of illegally owned guns within the US - BY THAT we have again proven that the US gun laws are 'license to murder'.
Written by :Firetom
We have presented a lot of evidence on the small percentage of justified self defence involving guns and proved how unlikely it really is that a gun can actually prevent a crime and by that shown how ridiculous it is to claim that "guns make a society safer".
Written by :Firetom
On a sidenote: Lurch himself has admitted that a knife in a skilled hand is more dangerous (and effective) than a gun.
Written by :Firetom
It is obvious that the arms industry causes a great deal of suffering not only within the US but also worldwide.
Written by :Firetom
However, we have tried to explain how the world inside the heads manifest on the outside world and how paranoia feeds a violent system, how a violent system is in desperate need of paranoia and fear and people who run around with (best intent) to kill each other.
Written by :FireTom
We will fail to prove that the difference between a responsible gun owner and a thug is only the intent on *why he carries* a gun. Intent can change, responsibility can change, the 'right to carry' remains.
Written by :Stone
I agree it’s not about providing scientific evidence or rational thinking
Written by :Stone
Though, I can see that there has been at least a token acknowledgement of the hypothetical fantasises that go into justifying the need to carry a firearm for self defense.
Written by :Stone
I’ve answered this question before. If you take out the morality and the self-righteous attitude, then there is no difference. Both are carrying guns, with the distinct possibility that they will cause harm or kill another human being.
Written by :Stout
I wonder how many of those guns used in domestic disputes were bought with "good intentions" Likewise, how many guns sold at second hand gun sales or those guns that leave their owners against the owner's will only to be later used in a criminal way
Written by :OWD
Many of Stones points are good ones- for example, I fully agree that fear and paranoia lead to more violence.
Written by :OWD
It's like insurance- chances are good that it won't be needed, but, there's a chance that it may and, those who have a realistic understanding of the risks, realise that, if that chance arises, when they need the gun, if it isn't present, they may not be around afterwards to learn from the experience.
Written by :Stout
You may rest assured that that guy who you just cut off in traffic, acting in a moment of rage, emptied his clip into your chest is going to get life for his crime as you lie in the street taking your last breaths, but wouldn't you prefer that he didn't have the means to fill you full of holes in the first place?
Written by :Stout
our border guards weren't armed until last year and were only armed due to the threat of American citizens and their personal firearms.
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Written by Lurch
Fantasies? It might just be that it's difficult to tell intent through text on a screen, but comments like those certainly sound like demeaning 'holier than thou' statements. There are thousands of rapes, murders, assaults, and robberies every year. Those are not hypothetical. Luckily I have not been raped or murdered. Sadly some people on this forum have been, they are not beyond the realm of possibility as you seem to imply.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Written by :onewheeldave
I've been involved in this discussion at the start and, at the last couple of pages- I've missed much of the middle section, so can't really comment on what happened there.
(...)
As to why my opinions have changed, in part it's because Lurch has presented a lot of facts about, for example, 'concealed-carry' requirements, which, previously I was not aware of.
Secondly, there's the actual supporting arguments, which, I've found, in Lurches case, have been rational, clear and sincere.
Whereas, the anti-gunners arguments have frequently been somewhat dubious, appearing on occasions to be, as previously mentioned, more political (point-scoring, deceptive, avoiding etc).
Written by : myself earlier
Compared to the rest of the (so called) "civilized world" you are drowning in (gun) violence and (gun) crime. There (currenty) is no other westernized country on the planet where massacres or gun related deaths happen to the same extent.
I asked: IF assault weapons (so far) are only a small portion of the guns in civilian possession AND do not serve a "reasonable purpose" - WHY then are the pro gunners so eagerly defending their availability to the public? To me this is a sign of "stand my ground at all costs" (which is characteristic).
Focussing on the larger problem: I don't know where you focus on the problem alltogether, you're not even ready to answer simple questions (that I adressed on previous page). I'm uncertain whether you acknowledge that there IS a problem in the first place.
Maybe it's that the majority of the american public considers the carnage of Columbine, VT and the daily madness as "2nd ammendment collateral damage"?
Nobody said that guns and gun violence is omnipresent on US streets. But there are gun related accidents and abuse on a daily base all over the US.
I would really LOVE to see this thread moving towards a useful and responsible source of information from all participants...
Even though I was talking about "gun safes" that cost a lot more than a mere lock, Lurch you are right: Free gun locks are distributed by Sheriff Dept. and other organisations.
Sounds very nice at first sight... Actually:
Written by: HOORAY, QUOTE YOUR SOURCES!!!!https://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/aug/10/free_gun_lock_program_faces_funding_challenge/
Since the program began in 2002, more than 220,000 locks have been distributed by roughly 300 agencies statewide. Nationwide, 35 million locks have been distributed, said Shari LeGate of Project Childsafe.
Funding for the national program has decreased nearly every year since 2002, when it had a $5 million budget, LeGate said. In 2006-07, the funding was cut to $912,000, a $4 million decrease from the previous year’s budget.
This year Project Childsafe has received 560,000 gun lock requests nationwide and has been able to fulfill only about half of those, LeGate said.
I'm quite uncertain how many of these free gun locks are now to protect someones bicycle from theft however.
2005 crime statistics by the FBI
Written by: FBI
The violent crime category includes murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault offenses. Nationally, preliminary data for 2005 showed increases in three of the four violent crimes from the previous year’s data. (...)
A breakdown of the 2005 data by population group revealed that all city population groups experienced increases in violent crime when compared with those data reported for the previous year, with the exception of the Nation’s largest cities, 1 million and over in population, where the number of violent crimes was down 0.4 percent. (...)
The Nation’s four regions all saw increases in violent crime in 2005.
That much on "dropping crime rates".
Lurch for example seeks refuge in "illegal sales" that lead to crimes throughout the US. But if these illegal sales are happening and it's whidely known, why then is still no action taken to prevent them? If traders "loose" (track) on their handguns, why are dealers licenses not revoked?
Why is there so little action taken? And why is the little action that is taken under criticism by pro gunners? Why are 90% of the national laws reg. gun control not enforced?
Written by: Faith
Microstamping seems like a good idea in theory, but I can already think of problems with it.
but you don't want to let us know about it?!
Written by: Brady campaign
The California State Senate passed the Crime Gun Identification Act of 2007 (AB 1471) to require new models of semi-automatic handguns be equipped with "microstamping" technology that allows police to match bullet shells found at a crime scene to the handgun that fired the bullets.
Now if dealers continue to "loose" firearms, this certainly is going to help as much as if second hand sales don't have to be reported.
According to this Wiki article "David McDowall found that guns were used in defense during a crime incident 64,615 times annually (between 1987 and 1990)" ... now compare this to 1.8 million violent crimes happening (in 1990)... "This equates to two times out of 1,000 incidents (0.2%) that occurred in this time frame".
You want to claim that a 0.2% chance is a number that justifies gun ownership and gun related accidents?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
"the geeks have got you" - Gayle
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by :Lurch
Do you see the difference there? Good guys.. Bad guys.. Bad guys do bad things. They maim, they kill unprovoked. They are wolves. Good guys don't do those things. Good guys try to stop the bad guys from doing bad things....
Bad guys, by their nature, will not respect gun laws, and will always have weapons. Good guys, by their nature, will respect, and follow gun laws. So you can A: remove the guns from good people because you're scared a small minority of them may either have an accident, or are secretly bad people. Or B: Leave it up to the individual whether or not they want the ability to defend themselves from the wolves.
You obviously have not learned the difference between wolves and sheepdogs.
Idolized by Aurinoko
Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....
Bob Dylan
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by :Tea Fairy
I've been following this thread, not sure where I stand on the issue... but the above just struck me as oversimplifying, it's a very black and white statement. People are not simply 'good' or 'bad' by 'nature'. Everybody will have variations in how they understand 'good' and 'bad' and how they behave accordingly. 'Good' people are perfectly capable, in the right circumstances, of doing very bad things and 'bad' people are also capable, in the right circumstances, of doing a great deal of good. Both are equally capable of doing stupid things too.
Written by :Stout
The bad guys are getting their guns from the good guys. That's what I meant by the statement you interpreted as being used against the original owner's will. Someone may buy a gun with good intention, loose interest in that gun, and sell it off to someone with "less good" intentions. This may be different if people were only allowed to own one gun for self defense purposes.
Say you're the author of the article in Men's Health that Stone posted. I know he was a weenie with his prattling on about safeties needing red dots and a bullet in the chamber indicators..here's a good example of someone who probably shouldn't own a gun. He bought himself a brand new .22 ( weird choice I know...mouse gun ) and quickly came to discover that a larger calibre was more "satisfying" . Now what's he going to do with that .22 ? Is he going to try and determine the intent of a potential purchaser when he sells it off in favour of a Glock ?
Written by :Stout
I may feel differently, were I living in a society where I feared criminals with guns, or even feared crackheads swinging baseball bats as I went about my daily business. But I don't. I can't think of one single example in my life where I thought " I sure wish I had a gun" I mean a serious example...you know what I mean.
Written by :Stout
Are there any laws about blood alcohol content and carrying a weapon ?
Maybe I have too much faith in the sheepdogs ( ie police ) but so far, locally, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of keeping the civilian gun violence down.
Written by
No??? that was an assumption on my part based on the "need" so many Americans seem to feel for personal protection firearms. Were I to buy one, it would be motivated by fear of armed criminals. A sort of...since the bad guys have them.... kind of thinking.
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored
Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Performing marriages, funerals, baptisisms, last rites and absolving the sins for HoPers for-- not very long actually.
Written by :Lurch
Faith if you come visit I'll take you shooting
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by
wait, do I need a permit
Written by
How about back to a gun store where they're required to do background checks?
Written by :Stout
For some reason, at a Tragically Hip concert in Seattle, and usher was running through the crowd with a pistol held high above his head. I did a double take, and seeing as no one else around me looked concerned, all I did was turn to my buddy and say...."America" It was something i just wasn't used to.
Written by
I'd expect our Canadian police to put their lives in danger for me. Hey if they're telling me I can't do it myself, then they better step up to the plate and do it for me. That's all hypothetical though, assuming there's a cop right there. when and where I need him.
About 6 weeks ago, I had a bicycle stolen out of my back yard. it was an old bike that I didn't really care much about, which is why it was unlocked, but out of sight from the street. I went to the police station to file a report, more so because I was concerned that there were scumbags frequenting my back yard. I mentioned to the police about how i was fearing for the safety of my family, and maybe...I should get a shotgun and they repeatedly assured me that they'd be on the scene in minutes if I noted any suspicious activity.
I believed them.
Written by :
But if I do end up finding a scumbag in my backyard, I can be reasonably certain that he's not packing a gun. Any other number of weapons, maybe, but not a gun. I can out run most melee weapons if it comes to that.
Written by :
I can't say I'm in denial of the idea that anything bad can happen to me and mine, but I don't spend much time stressing out about it. And stressing out about it is something I'd be doing big time had I purchased a shotgun. Actually, come to think of it, I'd probably buy a pistol as a home defense weapon, seeing as how Canada's relaxed our handgun laws.. ( previously, you had to keep the gun in a locker at the range, and apply for special permission each and every time you moved it ) Since we live in a small place, a full size long gun would be to unwieldy.
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Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
Written by :Stone
“I have the right to bare arms” is a NRA myth, used to sell guns that will lead to anarchy. The NRA tends to forget the bit about “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State.” Now, that myth is about be enshrined in law. For the first time in 70 years, the United States Supreme Court will begin hearing arguments in a landmark case about the country's gun laws. Can't wait to see where that's going to lead.
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
Written by : Lurch
As for the second hand gun sales being used in crimes against the original owners will. What does that even mean? You don't *have* to sell anything to anyone. Is it my fault if a car I sold is later used in a hit and run?
Written by : LurchWritten by : OWD
Many of Stones points are good ones- for example, I fully agree that fear and paranoia lead to more violence.
I will agree to part of that. Paranoia can indeed lead to more aggression. Fear on the other hand is a basic instinct that is healthy for us to have, and we should not ignore. I would suggest to anyone to read 'The Gift of Fear' by Gavin De Becker
Written by : Azadondo
My sister, who is two years older than me, flipped out and got scared and I got scared and my little brother got scared and we asked our parents what would happen if our house ever got broken into.
Written by : Dragon_Dafin
The problem of crime is not limited to guns. We can all agree with that. Even countries like Japan who have extremely strict gun laws still have crime. Even violent crime.
Written by : D_D
It is my contention that a change from an armed society (I speaking of an armed society like the US where firearms are so ingrained into our society) to an unarmed society would do more to raise the crime rate than to lower it.
Written by : the tea fairy
People are not simply 'good' or 'bad' by 'nature'. Everybody will have variations in how they understand 'good' and 'bad' and how they behave accordingly. 'Good' people are perfectly capable, in the right circumstances, of doing very bad things and 'bad' people are also capable, in the right circumstances, of doing a great deal of good. Both are equally capable of doing stupid things too.
A lot of this discussion seems to boil down to an 'us' and 'them' kind of attitude, which disregards the vast differences in people's motivations and behaviour. You can't just assume that all those who obtain weapons via the legal routes are all 'good' or 'responsible' - I'd also argue that those who own guns illegally are not all planning on mass murder, or killing people in unprovoked attacks...
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Written by
Whilst guns in fact can prevent crimes, these occasions only account for a neglectible amount: