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Forums > Social Discussion > US Gun laws are "License to murder"

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:
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[ed]I am going to update this OP as ppl who have not followed the discussion (in the past 2 years it is running now) cannot be bothered to go through all 50+ pages only to inform themselves about all the arguments brought forward. I hope it's allright with everybody.

Please patiently note that this is going to be a massive post that sum up all significant arguments that have been brought forward by both sides so far.

Thus: If you're bothered to read all the post, just scroll down to the bottom of it to get to the links and arguments - NEWEST information at the end of each section

Reading this post will keep you up-to-date with the current level of arguments brought forward - and you might not have to read all the 700+ posts.

If you have any new arguments that you find important to get included in this OP, please feel free to PM me at any time. Please note that I will only honor those arguments that you can back up with verifiable sources (quote your sources). I will *not* honor personal opinions as in 'I feel more comfy with a gun at my side' or in 'I feel horrified with guns present'. Feel free to post your opinions as you like *at the end of this thread*.

As this is a highly political issue, it will be almost impossible to keep this 'objective' and I will honor arguments of both sides, those who are pro and those who are against guns, regardless whether they directly come from the NRA or the Brady campaign.

The entire thread started like this:

Taken from: New York Times on August 7th

Originally Posted By: NYT
In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.
Supporters call them stand your ground laws.

Opponents call them shoot first laws.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the laws words, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force. The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens. If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side, Mr. LaPierre said. Good people make good decisions. Thats why theyre good people. If youre going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004. Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passengers feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead mans uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. He had a radio, Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. However, Ms. Haughwout said, there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.

Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to retreat to the wall before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force, Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder, Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

I was in T-shirt and shorts, Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allens door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

I was no threat, Mr. Rosenbloom said. I had no weapon.

The men exchanged heated words. He closed the door and then opened the door, Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didnt even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

I have a right, Mr. Allen said, to keep my house safe.


Taken from sbcoalition

Originally Posted By: sbcoalition

In Colorado, another state where this law has already passed, when Gary Lee Hill stood on the porch with a loaded rifle, he was afraid the people outside his home would attack him. That was what the jury heard in his murder trial. The jury foreman said that left them no choice but to find Hill not guilty of murder under Colorados Make My Day Law. Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving, the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside in a car yelling at Hill.

Gary Hill, 24, was found not guilty of first-degree murder in the shooting death, in the back, of John David Knott, 19, while he was sitting in a car outside Hills home.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Elizabeth Kirkman stated, However, the way the Make My Day Law is worded, it allows for deadly force if the shooter reasonably believes the other person might use physical force against the home dweller. She said her office supports the Make My Day Law and respects the jurys decision. She also said, At the time he was shot, there was no imminent danger to the home dweller.

Trust me, wrote Bill Major of Colorado Springs, this will open the door for assaults and murders by those who will now accept this as an interpretation of the Make My Day Law.

I try this to become a comprehensive list, so please feel free to PM me.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, times and again posts get heated (as it is a highly sensitive AND political topic) please do not take criticism on your opinion personal. Usually it relaxes pretty soon.

You're entitled to your *opinion* - whatever it is - hence quote your sources please if you want your *arguments* get taken serious...

In the past 2 years we have collected data and facts from various sources. Please verify these arguments yourself and get informed at these websites:

Wiki on gun control
The second amendment of the US constitution, on "the right to bear arms"


Pro-guns

National Rifle Association USA
How to obtain a class III license
A 1995 DOJ's study on Guns used in Crimes
Microstamping opposition

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Anti gun

Brady Campaign
Informations on the NRA's board of directors
Website on comments of the NRA leaders
A UC study showing that microstamping is feasible but has flaws
Gun control network

(Please PM me your sources and the arguments they point at, I will include them here)

Scientific Studies on gun ownership and the resulting facts

Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study

Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of homicide
Harvard School of Public Health releases 2007 study that links guns with higher rate of suicide
1999 Canadian study: "The rate of f...eightfold"
Utah medical library states that: "...uctivity."
Statistics on Teen homicide, suicide and... in 2004."

Articles in the news about guns, gun laws and accidents

USA Today on the expiry of the assault weapons ban
LA Times on bulletproof parks
CBS reports March 2008 that: "the U...in crimes"
A federal judge has stopped enforcement ...deadly weapons.
Violence Policy Center on CCW permit holders committing violent (armed) crimes
US weaponry spills into neighboring Mexico - across America

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1249974498)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:The school shooting thread is elsewhere. My point was to do with the idea of controlling an ever increasingly volatile and armed populace with the only argument being an armageddon that is hiding just around the corner.

If there is an uprising, I can sure as hell tell you that I don't want a regime imposed by the NRA more than the current regime, no matter how much I may disagree with the current system.


hug

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Such
GOLD Member since Sep 2008

Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here, USA

Total posts: 253
Posted:I don't want to be led by the NRA either. I would go off north and build a cabin in the middle of nowhere. Or try to at least...

And my post was not just about schools. That just seems to be the main thing people are worked up about.


Human

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V_Regal
GOLD Member since Feb 2009

Lost in the Lights
Location: BC, Canada

Total posts: 101
Posted:You mean Canada?
Our cabins are 6 story buildings that float off the ground now. :] Solar powered, and rainwater-collection systems, donchya know.


Risen from the Ashes
The Phoenix shall rise in his royal flaire.
FIND YOUR DESTINY.

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Mother_Natures_Son
SILVER Member since Aug 2007

Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!

Total posts: 2418
Posted:I'm tipping if anyone but the governmental powers were to win a civil war in the US the NRA led zealots would be a major force to be reckoned with. I very highly doubt that the UN would stand by while the US was demolished in order to create a system that is in actual fact (believe it or not) worse than the original.

So what then is the point of a more combat ready weapon?


hug

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railspinner


railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada

Total posts: 99
Posted:Actually one of the defineing characteristics of a assault rifle by military terms is a rifle with selective fire, that's the ability to select between automatic and semi-automatic fire.

The less people know the more they believe

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: Doppel Ganger And no where in there do I say anyone is more manly for having a gun. I said get a gun and grow some balls, not get a gun so you can grow some balls. You my friend, just like to twist everything into something else for YOUR sake

Come on Doppel, its all the same to me. Your are definitely making an association between guns, balls and testerone. The message is crystal, even if you cant see it for yourself. Join the dots. The bigger the gun, the more masculine the man.

Originally Posted By: Doppel Ganger ..I am curious why you had nothing to say about the video, just going to ignore that post aren't you. Go ahead, roll around in your ignorance.

Thanks, you are very impatient. I've been away. I didnt watch the video because I have no sound at work. Anyhow, you call them assault rifles, in one of your more lucid moments, so perhaps you should watch it. And the gun industry calls them assault weapons to make them sell. They even call em, "black rifles" to make them a little more cuddly and a little less killy.

Originally Posted By: Doppel Ganger *stares at the ar-15 in the closet* "Well assault rifle, your little bro 1911 won't do anything, you go kill someone!" *ar-15 doesn't move from the case* "Come on guns, what the hell?"

Originally Posted By: railspinnerActually one of the defineing characteristics of a assault rifle by military terms is a rifle with selective fire, that's the ability to select between automatic and semi-automatic fire.

Good point railspinner, the military dont like using auto because they chew up the ammo.

Not much time today, catch up later when Ive had a chance to read all the posts.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear,...

Total posts: 4693
Posted:Originally Posted By: doppelGanger
Do you really think that murders have been prevented because the potential perp said, "Gee, I can't fit this rifle under my coat because the stock doesn't fold?" Or does is take an extra smart criminal to just use a pistol. Open your eyes.

If someone wants to kill someone, they will do it even if they don't have any tac gear.

i think murders are prevented, especially ala mass school shootings, simply by reduced/minimal availability of firearms. at least in australia. but then that doesnt account for places like switzerland where there are many more firearms than here yet dont have gun murder rates like the US. i guess it must just be a social issue thats exacerbated by the availibility of firearms. in which case a reduction in firearms ownership/sales would be beneficial to reducing access to firearms.

i'd be curious to know how many US firearm owners actually use their firearms/have a legitimate reason for owning one/them.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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railspinner


railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada

Total posts: 99
Posted:I really think america is just prone to violence, I don't know why but obviously they are. Look at the crime rates, the incarceration rate, how it fosters several times more serial killers then any other nation.

The less people know the more they believe

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: doppelGanger I would go off north and build a cabin in the middle of nowhere. Or try to at least...



I seriously hope your plans involve your travelling to the Washington coast and sailing up to Alaska because if you're planning on transiting through Canada with your cache of anti-personnel weapons, then you won't receive a very warm welcome due to our dim views of people carrying those types of weapons.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Originally Posted By: railspinnerActually one of the defineing characteristics of a assault rifle by military terms is a rifle with selective fire, that's the ability to select between automatic and semi-automatic fire.

This is where I think Canada should follow the Australian example and get rid of semi automatics all together. What, exactly, do you need a semi automatic for anyways ? Pest control ?


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railspinner


railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada

Total posts: 99
Posted:stout the amount of legally owned semi automatics that are used in crimes here is almost non existant, but I personally wouldn't care if they were illegal. I don't think their even that popular in canada. Everyone I know with guns has shotguns and bolt action rifles. when I get my FAC that's what I plan on buying, a .22 bolt action, a 12 gauge and 20 gauge pump action, and a .308.

For hunting semi-automatic is a bit silly, you generally aren't going to get much opportunity for a second shot.


The less people know the more they believe

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V_Regal
GOLD Member since Feb 2009

Lost in the Lights
Location: BC, Canada

Total posts: 101
Posted:.22 is for taking down small game. =P Honestly, you could probably SHRUG that off. But a 20 gauge pump with pepper shot might be lethal.

In Canada, we don't have a lot of semi-autos. Everyone who hunts up here sticks to shotguns and bolt actions, which augments railspinner's point.


Risen from the Ashes
The Phoenix shall rise in his royal flaire.
FIND YOUR DESTINY.

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railspinner


railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada

Total posts: 99
Posted:that's why I wan't .22 for small game and plinking as the ammos really cheap, .20 gauge is good for bird hunting and small game, 12 gauge with steel birdshot for waterfowl hunting, and 12 gauge and .308 for deer or self defense if I ever get on the wrong side of a grizzily bear.
EDITED_BY: railspinner (1235431363)


The less people know the more they believe

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MRC
SILVER Member since Jun 2008

MRC

Funky Blessings Daily
Location: , USA

Total posts: 215
Posted:I was told my thoughts on the war on drugs were speculation, in what I presume is a method of avoiding the issue substantively.

ALL OF THIS CONVERSATION IS SPECULATION.

Every single bit of it. Every single (with the exception of guns are a killing machine) statistic etc. has some degree of controversy over it.

I think people overstate the "power" of the NRA. At most, they're a lobbying group and a club. In daily life I have never heard it mentioned, and not by any gun owners I know.

Also this sense that bows are better because of....I dunno whatever reasons you want to make up, is absurd. When the crossbow came out certain governments wanted it removed from battle, it was considered to gruesome and unsporting. Shall we all go back to slaughtering each other with swords? I'm sure the goths, the romans, the greeks, the mongols, the native americans, and certainly the corinthians can tell you about how a historical lack of guns did nothing to stop people killing each other.

Funny thing about people is, when they want someone dead, they find the best way to do it, and you cannot unmake a technology. Guns are now here to stay.


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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Hi railspinner

Cost of ammo was the main reason I never got into shooting big bore rifles at targets. I grew up with .22s and shotguns ( my uncle used to reload 12 ga, so shells were free. All I had to cough up for was clay pigeons. BTW, those make good rifle targets when set up as a stationary object. With .22s they shatter on impact, giving that shooting gallery feel, but a big bore just punches holes in 'em.

I was never much into hunting, so the big bore I got from a friend ended up in the classifieds with the proceeds going to more .22 ammo.

I even joined *coughmilitarycadetscough* hoping to get free access to the hardware ( hey I was 14 ) no such luck though, all I ever got to shoot was a .22 and for that, I had to spend my Friday nights marching a round a parade square freezing my ass off, in an itchy wool uniform, wondering just when all the cool stuff was going to kick in. Tirns out, it takes a couple of years of marching before that happens.

I did stick it out with the high school shooting club though and both their rules, and the rules of the various venues we used to shoot at ( not competitively, just for grins ) banned semi automatics unless they were used as single shot only. I couldn't even load up a clip with a bolt action rifle, they sere that concerned about range safety.


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railspinner


railspinner

journeyman
Location: canada

Total posts: 99
Posted:You must be in your 30's or 40's, high school shootings clubs definatly weren't around when I was in school, the PTA would have had a brain hemorage, even in the backwater rural part of the east coast im from. People really don't appreciate the joy of target shooting. Cheapest way to target shoot is to pick up a good air rifle. I have a russian air rifle I got at a yard sale for 40 bucks that's crazy accurate and fires about 850 FPS, it's suprising how much range you can get with it, It shoots further then I can accuratly (it has really crude open sights that are useless and permantly misaligned so you kind of have to shoot by intuition)

The less people know the more they believe

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:yep, that was in the 1970's, back in the day when hunting rifles and shotguns were a common sight, sometimes serving as home decor and pre dating the now defunct trend of displaying fishing rods in he gun rack in the back window of a pickup truck.

There was NEVER any talk, or even suggestions that these guns we were shooting might be used in an anti-personnel capacity, there was no talk of home defense weapons or even hints that a gun may be needed in any form of self defense other than running across that angry bear in the woods. Shooting at people, for whatever reason just wasn't on anybodies radar.

I had air rifles ( and pistols for years ) in fact they were the last type of gun I gave up simply because, not only was ammunition inexpensive, they were easy to use in the basement shooting range I constructed. No worries about a stray projectile flying through the siding of the house,and no deafening noise.

I only got rid of those when I moved to an apartment in downtown Vancouver figuring i wouldn't have a place to use them. Ironically, my job in Vancouver had me spending time in a remote mining camp where I was the only person on the jobsite who didn't own a gun. ( I was also the only person who didn't know how to operate a bulldozer either, but I fixed that right quick ) I mean, the miners were going out hunting on their lunch breaks, even the camp cook, who had very little time off, was spotted strolling down a back road with a rifle slung over his shoulder.

I can't say I noticed any semi automatics. but I wasn't specifically looking for them and considering I didn't have a FAC I thought I'd just leave the topic of guns alone and focus on other forms of sub freezing ( as in minus 20-30, quite unlike this coastal banana belt I live in ) winter recreation like snowmobiling, ice fishing and trashing the company 4X4 on tiny mountain roads.


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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:There is a lot I could say about what's been posted here. I even had a big long post written out, but I'm just going to wing this one and write more personal that 'professional'. Sorry I've been slow, I've been busy running searches and training people. I even re-qualified with my pistol for the sheriff's dept on saturday.

Qualifying was FUN for me. Shooting is FUN for me, as it is for many other people. I think this is what people from outside the gun culture can't figure out. I was even specifically training to kill someone, pure and raw combat shooting, and it's still FUN. It's a sport of skill, of control, of discipline. The mood is not somber, it's not depressing, and it's not psychotic either. It's very controlled, and very specific. If you're so serious about the world that you take shooting cardboard the same as shooting a person, you have problems. I realize that I may have to shoot someone in my life because of my career choice. And I realize that because of my career choice, someone *will* want to shoot at me. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when.

If it's going to happen, I want it to happen on duty. When I have my vest, when I have my gun, when I have a partner, or other deputies riding code to back me up. And the county covers my medical bills.... or funeral.. god forbid.. But what if it doesn't happen on duty?

You say you don't want everyday citizens to carry a gun concealed in public. I'll tell you right now, if you've been in the states, you've probably been in the same room with an armed person many many many times. Have you been shot yet? Did you even KNOW? Probably not. If someone with a grudge against me is actively trying to kill me, it's not the time for passive aggressiveness. It's not the time to preach peace. If you can fight, fight. If you can't fight, run. If you can't run, you die. I know you'll say "run first!" which is fine, but you can't always run away.

If you're opposed to violence in any and all forms in all circumstances, that's very noble, but very naive. So yes, I want to keep my guns. They're more for fun than for defense, but they all multi-task. And if I expect myself to be able to keep my guns, there is *no* reason other law abiding folk can't do the same. They run the same risks I do.

There's been a lot of talk about the old AWB, we went over it about 10 pages back I believe, but I'll hit on the two high points of why I dont agree with it again.

Their definition of an 'assault weapon' is contradictory to what nearly every arms dealer, maker, or military in the world would define it. Semi-auto weapons are NOT assault weapons. TRUE assault weapons/battle rifles are strictly regulated by Class III federal weapons laws already.

Most weapons covered by the 'ban' are perfectly legal with minor cosmetic changes. They have **NOTHING** to do with the actual function of the weapon. It shoots the same bullets, at the same speed. They're no more deadly with a pistol grip and a flash suppressor. Magazine size is largely irrelevant. FBI stats say shootings average 3.6 shots. There is **NO** justification for the bans they had in place, it was purely based on fear, not on fact. It was a prime example of the worst kind of lawmaking, and one that should NOT be endorsed purely on principle, regardless of what the topic is. You move similar ridiculous requirements and restrictions to any other industry and there is no way in hell it would stand up.


#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: Lurch Qualifying was FUN for me. Shooting is FUN for me, as it is for many other people. I think this is what people from outside the gun culture can't figure out. I was even specifically training to kill someone, pure and raw combat shooting, and it's still FUN. It's a sport of skill, of control, of discipline. The mood is not somber, it's not depressing, and it's not psychotic either. It's very controlled, and very specific. If you're so serious about the world that you take shooting cardboard the same as shooting a person, you have problems. I realize that I may have to shoot someone in my life because of my career choice. And I realize that because of my career choice, someone *will* want to shoot at me. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when

Come on Lurch, I dont buy that story. There is no need for anyone to shoot anyone. Thats just a story you have made up to justify shooting someone. The thing you dont seem to understand is guns arent toys. Collateral damage is not population control, and the number of gun deaths in America in not sensationalism. There is a price to pay for your fun!

You talk about skill, but how much skill is involved in shooting semi-automatic weapons with a 30 shot magazines? Not very much! As far as AWB go, I agree with what other people have said, ban semi-automatics and just sell five shot bolt action hunting and target rifles. No one can complain about that.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Lurch
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Lurch

old hand
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 929
Posted:What exactly do you think I'm making up? And why do you think there is any less skill involved with shooting a semi automatic? Placement is what matters, 30 rounds or 5 rounds it doesn't matter if you can't hit the target.

#homeofpoi -- irc.newnet.net Come talk to us we're bored frown

Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals

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Such
GOLD Member since Sep 2008

Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here, USA

Total posts: 253
Posted:Originally Posted By: StoneOriginally Posted By: Lurch Qualifying was FUN for me. Shooting is FUN for me, as it is for many other people. I think this is what people from outside the gun culture can't figure out. I was even specifically training to kill someone, pure and raw combat shooting, and it's still FUN. It's a sport of skill, of control, of discipline. The mood is not somber, it's not depressing, and it's not psychotic either. It's very controlled, and very specific. If you're so serious about the world that you take shooting cardboard the same as shooting a person, you have problems. I realize that I may have to shoot someone in my life because of my career choice. And I realize that because of my career choice, someone *will* want to shoot at me. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when

Come on Lurch, I dont buy that story. There is no need for anyone to shoot anyone. Thats just a story you have made up to justify shooting someone. The thing you dont seem to understand is guns arent toys. Collateral damage is not population control, and the number of gun deaths in America in not sensationalism. There is a price to pay for your fun!

You talk about skill, but how much skill is involved in shooting semi-automatic weapons with a 30 shot magazines? Not very much! As far as AWB go, I agree with what other people have said, ban semi-automatics and just sell five shot bolt action hunting and target rifles. No one can complain about that.


Wow, I agree 100% with what Lurch said, and can not believe how quickly you went to the level of downplaying HIS personal experience. I love to go shooting as well, I go every weekend I can just to target shoot, and Stone, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about as there is a lot of skill involved in shooting a semi-auto. My AR is ridiculously accurate, and every one of those thirty rounds takes the same aim, and on a good day, they group at least 2" at 100 yards. I would love to see you make that group when "there is no skill involved."


Human

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear,...

Total posts: 4693
Posted:i think stones meaning is that if you have thirty rounds in a semiauto, you can be a bit more indiscriminate and still hit your target than if you only had five rounds in a bolt action. miss two round with a bolt action and your target probably has cover, whereas if you had a semi auto you could have fired something like 6 shots in the same time and hit your target once. hence a semi auto with a large clip can reduce the shooters need to be accurate because the higher fire rate can compensate.

that said denying Lurches story is a bit odd. i've been to a shotgun range and a pistol range and i enjoyed it.

more over if you are in law enforcement in a country with such high firearms ownership, especially by criminals, then its perfectly reasonable to expect to be shot at and have to shoot back, justifying target practice.

stone saying "there is no need for anyone to shoot anyone", although idealistically true, doesnt quite work when a drug dealer decides he doesnt want to get caught and would rather kill someone and get away than be arrested. shrug

if it counts for anything, i hope you dont have to shoot anyone/get shot lurch smile i hope you practice for something that never happens.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:and I think most gun owners hope they just have to shoot at carboard targets or a deer.

For the newbies, look over the thread. Firetom does update the OP post from time to time

Also, PBS is not unbiased. I was nearly on the floor laughing at the mortgage crisis they had put together. Especially, everytime they talked about Americans they showed a ghetto rat and her hubby drinking a forty while both were wearing pajama pants


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Originally Posted By: LurchWhat exactly do you think I'm making up? And why do you think there is any less skill involved with shooting a semi automatic? Placement is what matters, 30 rounds or 5 rounds it doesn't matter if you can't hit the target.

Lurch, you dont have to shoot anyone, you choose that career because you want to. When you say it's not a question of if, it's a question of where is just playing on the drama. I wont dig up the motives because it starts to get windy.

Originally Posted By: LurchYou say you don't want everyday citizens to carry a gun concealed in public. I'll tell you right now, if you've been in the states, you've probably been in the same room with an armed person many many many times. Have you been shot yet? Did you even KNOW? Probably not.

Lurch, I have no problem sitting around with armed Americans provided things are going well. However, the story changes when there is a bit of pressure on the system, like say a hurricane. Then out come the guns, and people start shooting each other. Then the system falls apart and it anarchy. Next thing you know the National guard is called in and the good citizens start firing on their own. The reality is that America under pressure is about two days off civil war.

Originally Posted By: LurchIf someone with a grudge against me is actively trying to kill me, it's not the time for passive aggressiveness. It's not the time to preach peace. If you can fight, fight. If you can't fight, run. If you can't run, you die. I know you'll say "run first!" which is fine, but you can't always run away.

So much for the peacemaker.


Originally Posted By: DopppelMy AR is ridiculously accurate, and every one of those thirty rounds takes the same aim, and on a good day, they group at least 2" at 100 yards. I would love to see you make that group when "there is no skill involved."

Doppel, your AR is an assault weapons designed to kill people at short range. Not much good for anything else. At 100 yds the degree of difficulty is about 1.0. Try a 243 or something like that at 600 yds, and if you hit the target with out breaking your shoulder you will be doing well. As for the fun, what going to happen when everything on the planet is destroyed because you guys are just having fun? Cant eat bullets.

Majestik, "there is no need for anyone to shoot anyone". People only do it because they live in fear.

Now where were those Weapons of Mass Destruction?




If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:People only shoot other people because the live in fear?

Please prove this statement


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Such
GOLD Member since Sep 2008

Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here, USA

Total posts: 253
Posted:Actually my friend, a shotgun is designed to take people out at short range, and for your information, my AR *can* and *has* hit the center at 300 yards, I am just not lucky enough to have that large of a range all the time.

As for whoever said that 5 shots from a bolt action and the target would be in cover: If you try rapid firing shots from an AR that quickly at that range, you will miss every one except maybe the first.

Quote:and I think most gun owners hope they just have to shoot at carboard targets or a deer.

I would say that is the case for 90-95% of gun owners, and even that is probably a low estimate.


Human

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Such
GOLD Member since Sep 2008

Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here, USA

Total posts: 253
Posted:As for a hurricane hitting and a civil war breaking out, I think that is so far from the truth... What you saw was a isolated event in a community that had a lot of violence and things of that nature since the beginning. And people were not just going around shooting people for the fun of it, more often than not they were protecting their homes or possessions from other people, and there is *nothing* wrong with that.

Human

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MRC
SILVER Member since Jun 2008

MRC

Funky Blessings Daily
Location: , USA

Total posts: 215
Posted:Originally Posted By: Stoneblah, blah, blah-



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Such
GOLD Member since Sep 2008

Such

Rancor
Location: Right Here, USA

Total posts: 253
Posted:smile

Human

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok Lurch, lets look at it this way. If you are complaining because someone might want to shoot you, then Id suggest that it would be in your best interests if you supported the removing guns from society, rather than encouraging more people to own semi automatics. It's not rocket science. Apparently, they also call them black, because of the number that hit the black market. Bottom line if you dont like being shot at, and hey who does, then I suggest removing all excess guns from the community. It can be done, all it takes is people valuing human lives more than guns.

I know these guys were just having fun but hey, gunguys statistics bear some of the ugly truth on semi automatics "In the years since the ban expired, more assault weapons have been used to kill and maim in South Florida and the nation. One in five homicides in Miami in 2007 was committed with an assault weapon. In 2004, they were involved in only 4 percent of homicides.

Some of these unnecssary and tragic homicides include:An AK-47 sprays a crowd of 50 people during a craps game outside an apartment complex in Liberty City in January. Nine people are shot. Two teenagers 16 and 18 are dead.

Another assault weapon unloads on a group of partygoers in Brownsville celebrating a high-school graduation. Six people are hurt. An 18-year-old is dead.

A modified assault rifle (thats semi automatic set to automatic fire, right? A modification that you guys keep telling me is impossible to do.) injures three officers in Cutler Bay and kills Miami-Dade Officer Jose Somohano, a father of two, in 2007.

An assault rifle sprays 25 bullets at a car outside a home in North Miami Beach in December 2006. A 17-year-old girl inside the car is killed."


Faith, there were no weapons of mass destruction. Thats a good example.

Doppel, its seems to me that an AR is really a gangster gun. I know you guys havent gone metric yet, but 300 yards is not 600 yards, and the degree of difficulty increases expediently from 300 to 600 yards. The point about the 5 shots bolt action was its not a semi automatic. As for a hurricane hitting and a civil war breaking out, it happened. What do you need, a road map?

Lost for words MRC?

EDITED_BY: Stone (1235888295)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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