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Forums > Advanced Staff moves > Using Inspiration Creatively

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willworkforfoodjnr
willworkforfoodjnr

Hunting robot foxes
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire
Member Since: 8th Aug 2007
Total posts: 1046
Posted:OK so there was a bit of discussion stemming from the prop transition thread that I think is quite interesting, but to keep it on topic we should probably move to this one to continue it.

A summary of whats been said so far (sorry if you think I pulled the wrong bits out!):

Originally Posted By: tim_marstonMy personal opinion is the the best thing to do is actually practise with your chosen prop rather to think about it to much or use tools and advice from others
...
Its also my concern that tools, theories and workshops can create a very generic style of manipulation where rules, standard principles and common practices end up having a restrictive effect on the variety and creativity within the chosen prop. Many beginners take the word of more experienced spinner very seriously and this can mean that advice can be taken as the gospel and have a huge potentially negative effect on the limits of creation that the newbie may feel possible.

Originally Posted By: Noelski
The reasoning to write this was because I saw so many similarities between technical double staff poi, and clubs I figured I'd point them out.

Also standardizing tech helps people communicate, look at site swap, especially for juggling...even staff juggling.


Originally Posted By: willworkforfoodjnr
I definately agree that these standard methods of thought often create very standard performers. You can see it particularly with jugglers and the siteswap notation, and its a shame.

I actually view these ideas as tools for more advanced spin/jugglers. In the earlier phases of your development just learn some moves, build a library of interesting things to draw on. This often will be the sort of moves you are interested in or like to watch. Then when a new way of thinking comes along you can use it to modify what you already know, instead of viewing it as something totally new.


Originally Posted By: aston
Sometimes having someone suggest something new opens up new things to do.

Also, people think and approach things differently. I would not really have thought of throwing poi if someone had not mentioned doing so.


Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_Son
Depending on how its displayed and how its taken it can either lessen or extend the problem of 'cookie cutter spinners'

the theory is practically worthless without input from the person using the prop, the way I interpret and shape this theory is very different from the way a beginner would interpret and shape it.

I do my best to try to teach as many different approaches to thinking about how to use ones props that whoever I'm teaching will eventually combine components or pick a theory that suits the way their mind works best.


So, how do you generally develop new movements/tricks/whateveryawannacallem? Tim, you say that you perfer to just let creativity rule without a structure to help you discover tricks, where as MNS has a more structured approach. How do each of you generally 'find' your new movements?

Personally I find that I can quite easily become locked into a certain way of thinking. I find it very difficult to get the first spark of inspiration but once there, its like opening a door to a huge range of possibilities. That spark is almost always triggered by something external (although not always, I have had times when something has happened 'by accident' and had the same effect), be it a notation (siteswap) a concept (compound circles) or even a prop (Taking up staff inspiring my juggling).

I now use this in a pretty structured way. At practice sessions I will often stop myself while doing a move and force myself to apply it to other movements and props. Trying to replicate a 3 ball weave trick with doublestaff spin will generally fail, but even when it does it helps me learn more about how these props move and the possibilities open to me.


Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!

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Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Excuse me if I refer to poi rather than staff but thats the prop with which I do the most experimentation.

I tend to seek understanding of the movements I know, how they fit together... I tend to view almost everything as you'd view a hybrid... I classify what each hand and what each poi does.

I seek to understand the boundaries of the basic components and how the boundaries of terminology can even overlap.

By exploring the limitations of what I do I can extrapolate what I know into what I can theorise and guess at. My mind turns into something akin to an alienjon animation.

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/886502/1.html
br>
This is a link to a thread in which I outline the way I think about poi if it'd help you understand what I mean. *Flowers and MISC sections especially*

EDITED_BY: Mother_Natures_Son (1242309016)


hug

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Permission to move this into Tech discussion as I don't think this is at all restricted to staff...?

I guess a starting point would be what this "inspiration" is.
For example I can watch a someone spinning, either live or on vid and be inspired by that.
Likewise I can be playing with poi, accidentally (or semi-deliberately) find something interesting and get inspired by that.

For me, the most relevant to the topic case is the first one.
Mel's recent tech poi video for example - huge inspiration, but for many, this will inspire them to learn the moves they like as-is, which leads to "cookie cutter" styles as discussed above.

A classic example would be someone with a very dancey style learns a new move - and when playing, they break out of their style to pull off the tech move - feet planted firmly on the floor, body squared up - then go back into their "zone".
Tech? Yes. Creative? No.

Learning how to take these moves, as purely technical movements, and develop them to be your own as well as developing them in different ways is a real art - This then leads into the second example.

For me, I have a semi-structured approach; try the standard variations of a move (isolate, anti-spin, LASA, LALA etc.) then also try some physical variations, exploring the move in different postitions/styles with different footwork, body position.
Look for parallels with other moves, even simple thngs like a prop swinging in the same time as a limb - take this and emphasise. Or reverse it.

Kyle Maclean did an awesome workshop a while back where he talked about minimizing and maximising a move:
Try and perform a move with as little physical movement/expression as possible. Do the absolute bare minimum. If you can break a move down to just using your wrist for example - this effectively means you have 4 limbs (and a hand, a head, chest etc.) with which can do absolutely anything you want with.

Likewise make a move as big as possible,involving all your limbs - don't just flail about, ensure everything you're doing is relevant to the move - you can look for any eye-catching parallels, similarities etc.

Then combine the two - taking elements of both exercises and see what comes out.

~~~~~

You can also take a critical approach, even if you love a video/performance - try and see what you don't like, or whether there's any avenues that person hasn't explored.
There's inspiration to be had in what you don't like too - try and analyze what you don't like, and turn it into something that you do. Is a person too static? Are the poi too fast to see a pattern? Too slow to convey fluidity?

Play wink

grin

EDITED_BY: Durbs (1242312875)


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
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tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:Nice work on the new thread!

For me inspiration can come from a huge range of sources .
Other fire spinners is way down on list in terms of significance towards my motivation levels, but way up the list of significance in terms of technique. For example |I almost never watch staff spinning videos, I find most of them very un-inspiring but as all my performance is with staff and a lot is staff juggling then obviously other staff spinners/jugglers have influenced my technique.

I get huge amounts of inspiration from watching juggling videos especially old school circus and variety jugglers and I really like their slightly cheesy style and think its a great way to entertain and earn a living from my chosen prop. As well as inspiring me to train harder I also get inspiration for staff juggling tricks, stage presence and audience control.

Other sources of inspiration can be as varied as good music, my audiences, the professional athletes that train at my gym, my mentors (jago,dave knox, etc) my friends on the scene (Bristol crew, seb, antti etc) and many many more, however the level and direction of their inspirations is varied and a bit indefinable.

From a point of view of being creative with regards to new tricks, I try to find tricks that will be both entertaining to watch and fun for me to dedicate the years of practice that will allow me to perform them as well as i possibly can.
Often a mistake or a slip-up can open my eyes to a new possibility.
Sometimes i copy tricks from other staff performers or jugglers, most often club jugglers. I try not to copy many tricks off other staff spinners and if i do take a trick off somebody else i try to make it fit into my style and hopefully improve or alter it in some way.
One big problem I face is not a lack of creativity its to much, I only learn tricks that I hope to perform and cant allow myself to try and learn every trick I think of, as I would never be able to get them all clean and fit them all into my show or routines. Particularly with staff juggling and high speed spinning it takes me many years to reach a level of control that i think the trick deserves and this process is far more valuable, enjoyable and exciting than creating or copying hundreds of tricks that I never get as clean and controlled as i would like.

I personally have serious doubts as to the value of hundreds or even thousands of spinners learning a huge number of tricks from experts in their chosen field of manipulation whether it be from online tutorials or workshops, this to me is where this generic style of spinning really comes from and it strikes me as a wasted opportunity encourage new spinner to create their own tricks and styles.

i have been asked a few times recently to teach workshops and have always resisted as i dont want to increase the perception that the best way to learn is to copy tricks off somebody else. i would like to create a workshop designed to allows beginners to be confident in their own creativity but Im not a naturally good teacher and also find it difficult to articulate my ideas and thoughts as well as i would like.

Whilst I respect the amount of effort going into teaching thru workshops and online tutorials and appreciate that there is a huge demand for such things i do feel my heart sinking when i wonder around festivals watching hundred of newbies struggling to learn what in my opinion is far to many tricks that someone else has created.


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:I feel like going off on a (relevant) tangent here, hope no-one minds....

what are the value of workshops?

I seem to like starting this sort of thing with a 'where am I coming from' bit, so here we go.

I Love teaching workshops, and put on masterclasses through uber. The response is usually very, very good. And the general feeling is that the workshops foster not only a lot of skills, but also a LOT of individual creatiity. There is always a focus on how you can use your newly learned skills in a personal and interesting way.

Inevitably though, the thing you see at the end of the event is people standing there practising a new trick they have just learned. So it looks really dull - lots of people standing around, learning the new tech thing they got shown in tech101 by InsertGeek Here. this doesn't mean they can't spin creatively - it jut means they are, en masse, going through the part of the learning process that involves standing around going 'uuuuuuh...' a bit. And in general, when you see them again a few months later, that trick has been either dropped or incororated into their own spinning style.

I think Intention is key in what people get from workshops, and whether they come out of a workshop as a better spinner or a little bit closer to being a clone.

what is the Intention of the workshop leader?
what is the Intention of the event organiser?
what is the intention of the participant?

each of these things can be approached very differently:

here're some non-exhaustive thoughts

workshop leader intentions

- make everyone learn new tricks
- make everyone earn new concepts
- make everyone learn SOME new tricks and incorporate them into personal spinning
- make everyone use their own spnning more interestingly
- make everyone realise their spinning fits into a big framework, and let the explore the framework
- have some fun
-pass on knowledge

while it is possible to use many of these at once, it is very hard to approach all at the same time.... so you are also relying on:

event organisers intentions (and the two might be the same person, and I am going to not include beginners/kids/corporate stuff):

Hold a party/festival, with some workshops
hold a workshop event with little or no overall structure
Hold a holistic workshop event
Hold a series of classes

each of these will make you structure your individual workshop extremely differently. But last, and probably most importantly, what are the students looking for?

Participant intentions:

- learn some new stuff
- learn some new stuff by THAT TEACHER, who does X, Y and Z really cool-ly
- go with your mate to a workshop together, so you can work - together after
- drop in cause something looked/sounded cool
- nothing better to do
- see how a particular person teaches something
- get some inspiration/new perspective on something you already do
- meet other spinners

so, for example, If you are in a one-off tricks based workshop at a festival (even at the bjc/PLAY/SL08 etc) where there is no holistic approach, and the students intentions are mainly to go and learn tricks, then you are setting up for cookie cutter spinners. I'm not suggesting that these are not good workshops in the slightest, but it IS the reason I orefer to teach workshops within a bigger context - Uberevents/spinagogue, etcetc

So what is the actual value of a workshop?

If you don't get much inspiration (and no, the internet is not enough...) then having someone actually teach you something is invaluable. If you are stagnating a bit, and haven't the discipline to force yourself through the plateau, then someone elses ideas, and just generally being around other people a lot will help massively. The meeting up side of things can't be discounted either - I have countess friends I have made from workshops, and in many cases knowing that person has utimately led to me being a better spinner.

So, finally, you can't lump all workshops together - each type of workshop has inestimable value in its own way, and each student will take what they can from the workshops. Its like you say, Tim, workshops that allow people to be creative are ideal. Its just that the proportion of them is quite small, because the ccontexts are not reated for them either.

I think the Cookie-Cutter spinner tendency is not necessarily down to workshops, but down to the general enormous growth in spinning as a whole, and, with that growth, a the introduction of 'fashion' into spinning - where you do something because 'everyone does it'. But there will always be interesting and innovative spinners, and there will always be incredible dancers with the skills to make generic tricks look amazing.

*runs out of steam*


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:yo rob
i think your post is very relevant to the thread and very well put, i have responses but am very busy and also keen to hear others thoughts on this before i reply.


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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Regarding the intent of the spinner, I agree completely with what MNS said about a creative person will always find a way to be creative. Some people just want to be able to spin a little poi. Others (I think Time might be one of them) merely want a hint of what is possible and then play with it.

I have a bunch of tricks and such with poi that I have not fully "assimilated" yet. In other words I have not really had the time to see what I can do with them. I can do a generic version of a number of things but a lot of my actual spinning has become de-structured.

One thing that also helped a lot was consciously decided not to do certain moves. Like an entire session where I would not do any butterfly moves. Limiting myself in one or other ways has often opened doors.

Also, my view is partly based on why rediscover everything? If someone has come up with the idea of flowers, why should I not find out the concept from him/her? It means that instead of actually having to identify the concept, I can see how far my own creativity takes it. Which is why I am one MNS's side when he says that he prefers to teach concepts and look at where circles are, rather than show people exactly how to do the move. I will show a variation, and say that this is the basic way of doing it, but that they must see what else they can do.

Ok. Girlfriend is telling me to hurry up. smile Hope it all makes sense.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:Using Inspiration Creatively?

Yeah you could do that, but for some people that isn't why they spin. I think anyway, someone could correct me if I'm wrong. Some people spin cos they enjoy it, they don't need to consider issues of creative use of moves in order to enjoy spinning. Some people enjoy playing with fire, some people do it cos they enjoy hanging out with their spinner friends, some people do it to get paid, some people do it cos of the 'dance' aspect... y'know. It's not always about using inspiration creatively. Not everyone is about geekily / creatively pushing spinning into new places... (To go boldly where no spinner has gone before... I love the new star trek.)

That being said, you can't just be all like: Oh Hai! I'm going to teach this because it'll be good for you geeky keen spinner students!

Most of my workshops don't consist of those people unfortunately, usually cos those people don't need to take workshops.

If people want to learn just tricks, who am I to say NO! I want the people in my workshops to get what they want out of the workshops and enjoy them. Who am I to say what they 'need'? If they enjoy it, that's cool.

That being said, I do try and teach frameworks rather than tricks. Thou always the framework is illustrated by tricks and sometimes movements. I would like my students to go and do some homework... but well... that's me. Workshops are funny things, half performance, half teaching... Always usually mixed levels.

Anyway that was a bit of a diversion, as for other people using inspiration creatively. If everyone went off onna weird tangent, like contact poi, or wibbles then spinning would be heaps more interesting.

As they say: good artists borrow, great artists steal. And michael Moschen makes up incredible and weird new stuff all the time.

Not that I'm against cookie cutter spinners, if there were more yuta clones out there life for a choreographer would be heaps easier hey. You could be all like, okay you two stand in the back and do anti-spin butterfly flowers into vertical cateyes and back again every 2 bars. Instead of Hey, stand in the back and do butterfly. Which would be nice...


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:Rob, your post on intention contains a lot of valuable points when aproaching the idea of an event or workshop . The only thing i would add, is perhaps consider that short term, and long term intentions may be different.

In the short term of intention for taking a workshop, i might just want to learn a new trick-- in the long term i may be aware that the trick, and the concepts it opens up for me, may change the way i spin, lead into new movement patterns etc.

So whilst it may seem we generate a bunch of cookie cutter spinners from a trick based workshop, in the long term those same people may well integrate the movements into a personal style over time, and continue an exploration process on their own, breaking down the "trick" into concepts and components long after the workshop has ended.


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:MCP: After having watched your staff dvd, I personally like the way you approach things. There is enough to get someone pretty competent, without locking them into anything.

Which is ultimately the way I would like to do things.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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willworkforfoodjnr
willworkforfoodjnr

Hunting robot foxes
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire
Member Since: 8th Aug 2007
Total posts: 1046
Posted:Rob, thanks for the comments on workshops, its something I've found tricky. I'd love to be able to run a workshop that opened the doors for people to play with their own ideas more, but it never seems to work like that. Much of that, as MCP said, seems to be down to mixed abilities within the group. 3 people have trouble with the movement you intend to work from and suddenly you're off on a tangent.

But then, really, MCP is right when she says that there is nothing wrong with people just wanting to learn other peoples tricks, if thats where they find enjoyment. As long as you include the information for that minority that will go away and develop the ideas then you've catered to everyone?


Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!

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Zazie
Zazie

There Is No Spoon
Location: Brighton
Member Since: 19th Jun 2007
Total posts: 68
Posted:Does this mean I don't actually have to learn all the vertical contact I still haven't learned but seem to be generally accepted as basic contact moves?

And I'll STILL be cool?!

'Cos that's the style yo.

Jest as I do, it's actually quite a good point that I'd never really questionned the slight pangs of guilt I often feel at not bothering to learn these moves, even though I don't particularly like them. The best cookies are the ones you schmush out with your hands and throw at a friend then peel off the wall and make into monsterous beasts with gnarley teef before baking.


Three years of my life that took. And I get; "... nice."

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Knoxious
.

Member Since: 25th Feb 2002
Total posts: 420
Posted:oh cool, thanks for that Meg... I was going to write a reply and now I don't have to... grin

For the 2p worth - I hope to think I teach frameworks...or at the very least say that "this not The Gospel, it's only a way I've gone about things and it works for me"

cheers again Meg wink


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:Yeah, with contact staff, cos it's ma first love, er sorry, prop / skill toy, y'know it's the first one I learned, with that, I'll learn everything I see, however I get it, borrow beg or steal... Cos I love it and I wanna know ALL ABOUT IT.

With anything else, I'll consider and decide what I like and don't like, what looks pretty and what looks ugly, what's impressive and what's not, what I have time for and what I don't and usually most importantly, what's unique and what isn't, what's standard and what's not...

Hmmmm lots of what's with correct use of an apostrophy.

It's kinda different with each prop actually...

And there's a few that I would like to go deep enough with to start getting to new ground... and once I get there, I might consider learning ugly ass, boring, everyone can do them, generic basics.

But then, I'm not a person in troupe having to perform for a living, I have the luxury of deciding to follow my own thoughts to where they wanna go. And yeah, they do go retarded places.

Off to reread bluey's post.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Danny_
Danny_

.
Location: Brighton
Member Since: 24th Aug 2005
Total posts: 95
Posted:Oooh. I like this thread. As an indirect reply to the above, here's my thoughts on the matter. With relation to poi.

Firstly, inspiration versus creativity.

I generally develop things by mixing things. To do this, I need to know things to mix up - I need to learn other peoples moves (eg. weave, butterfly, flowers). I also need to understand these things, to know how to mix them up. To understand them, I use other peoples theories of how things work (same direction, opposites, antispins). Then, once that's done, my own things come into the mix - my own moves and my own theories.

Inspiration, as opposed to creativity, comes from the outside. A new influence that opens up other thoughts. As well as coming from seeing other peoples things, accidents are also a great source of inspiration.

Creativity is using the inspiration. To be creative, take influences from unusual sources. I believe things don't come from nowhere, and by being aware of your influences, your inspiration, more doors will open.

Secondly, a more personal approach.

Thinking of a grand tree of poi moves (ignoring for now the creativity in the rest of the performance, although the same kind of thinking can apply there too). My grand tree of poi moves. I learnt the weave first. Then backwards - the tree splits into two branches. Then I learnt a butterfly. This was a bit different. A new stem, if you like. But the same things applied - I learnt if backwards. And then over the head. Then behind the back. Then, oooh, the weave can be behind the back too. The tree grows, and each branch is connected to many others. It's a weird tree. The tree keeps growing, branching, becoming more tangled.

My point is, that from a starting point of weaves and butterflies, anything new I create will be related to them. Probably. I could perhaps take an influence from juggling and start throwing my poi. But my scope for new things is small. By growing this tree, and learning other peoples stuff FIRST, the sources of inspiration increase, and the creativity flows easier.

I spend a lot of time learning what other people have done. The tree grows quicker. And as I learn more, I spy gaps - unconnected branches that could be connected. The bigger the tree gets, the easier it is to spot the gaps. Sometimes, I'll spot a gap that hasn't been filled by anyone else, and I'll do something new. Or have a happy accident, and do something interesting. But still, at this stage of growing the tree, my spinning is fairly generic.

Following from the above, just making the tree bigger, all round, will result in generic spinning (probably also good spinning). But, if the choice is made to go off to one side, the chances of making something new are higher. It will make the tree a little less bushy, and break away from being generic. Doing this makes it harder to learn new things, but makes for a more different style. The bigger the tree is, the more capable I will be of expanding in one area - I have more ideas to put into it, more inspiration to be creative with, so I can innovate better. But if I have a small tree, the less I have to work with, and I'll produce things that other peolpe have produced - the result: generic spinning.

Therefore, I don't believe that learning what other people do is limiting. It is never limiting. (As long as you keep learning and creating!)




I think I've reiterated a lot of what has already been said, but in a way that makes sense to me.

I haven't even got onto some other things I wanted to talk about, eg. relating it to music (ie. it's hard to create music without learning some music theory (or at least listening to music!) - ie. learning what other people have done before you. It's useful to understand why things work before experimenting and doing something different. And TRIZ, something I have come across recently - systematic innovation, which comes from reading a LOT of patents, noticing patterns in the way things are invented, and using that to invent new products. But systematically innovating might take away the joy of creativity for some people.

More unorganised thoughts:
-Learning how others understand their trees helps me to organise my tree, and spot gaps.
-Learning how others understand their trees helps me develop my own understanding.
-Standardising notation etc makes peoples trees become more similar in structure, aiding the learning of new things.
-Using (or understanding) more than one notation helps lots of things (spotting gaps, helping others).
-Tools, theories and workshops can create a very generic style of manipulation (making peoples trees be more similar), but it also means that people can grow their trees quicker, so they can then explore and develop their own ideas.
-With poi (and staff and juggling) there are so many tricks that no-one can do everything. No-ones tree is complete, nor the same as anyone elses. The more people develop, the more true this statement will become.
-There are many techniques to expanding trees.
-Limiting oneself helps to focus on one part of the tree, and so helps creativity that way.
-Thank you to Rob, you've helped clarify some messy thoughts floating around in my head about workshops.
-The importance of getting inspiration from unusual sources.

That's enough for now.

EDITED_BY: Danny_ (1243280101)


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DyamiTK
DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca
Member Since: 11th Mar 2008
Total posts: 159
Posted:
here are some additional posts made on the other thread after the move:

Originally Posted By: tim_marstonFirstly the name cookie cutter is a totally new one on me and whilst i can guess what it means a deeper explanation would be great wink
Noel, I have no thoughts that you would ever want to stifle creativity and know you love what you do, i also wouldn't want to discourage you or anyone else from be techie online, however i feel like the populist thoughts and norms are leaning towards a more technical/generic approach to spinning and often feel i should try and help maintain a healthy balance. Staff juggling for example is an area of huge potential but it seems most staff jugglers all learn the same tricks (cascade/reverse cascade, mikes mess, mills mess and some site-swaps that i don't understand or know the proper names of but you know what i mean)

it seems a bit of a shame to me when there is such a huge potential to be creative and original , of course we are all inspired and share tricks but again for me its a question balance. I sometimes take advice from deeply techie jugglers, this helps me to stay within my own comfort zones of trick creation and creativity.

Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonUse the same cookie cutter on 100 different hunks of dough and each time you're going to get something practically the same.

there does need to be a balance you're right.. there are some ways of sharing that encourage creativity and some that stifle...

I've found in general that people who really want to push the envelope will do so anyway, those that don't have the passion for creativity are probably a lot happier being cookie cutter spinners, it really depends on what you personally want out of it. Takes dedication to get to the point where you can really start to feel comfortable in the confines of your skill level and really start to play with what you've got creatively.

Originally Posted By: DyamiTK
Everyone must reach enlightenment in their own way, the path can not be walked for us. I believe this to be a truth and has been expressed in many different ways over the ages, one of my favorites being, "I can only show you the door, it is you who must walk through it."
However, there are people who have explored further down the path then us, and as those early people who blaze the trail move on ahead, they can beat open an easier way for others to follow. They can leave behind signs to show the people following them which way they took. This is the essence of teaching. This is why we have all those videos and articles on how to do whatever it is we are trying to learn. They are footprints for us to follow so that we don't have to completely reinvent the journey ourselves but rather learn from the successes and failures of the travelers before us and continue on with our own understanding.


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DyamiTK
DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca
Member Since: 11th Mar 2008
Total posts: 159
Posted:Originally Posted By: Albert EinsteinThe secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
I disagree with that statement in the sense that as a scholar, I believe in giving my sources credit but I think the point the man was trying to make is that we are social creatures who learn by example. Creativity does not necessarily have to mean creating completely original ideas but rather taking inspiration from others and adapting it to our own style.

I have not read all the details of this thread so I apologize if I repeat what has already been said. This issue I have seen before and one which people seem to have much concern around. Let's continue to explore it and we will approach a solution that makes sense to everyone. I think we are already there but we still are not hearing each other clearly enough to reach a consensus on how to state this information.

EDITED_BY: DyamiTK (1242893578)


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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Danny_: Nice way of thinking about it. Have you considered actually drawing your tree? (Or trying to....)

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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Danny_
Danny_

.
Location: Brighton
Member Since: 24th Aug 2005
Total posts: 95
Posted:I haven't properly considered drawing my tree. It would be quite a project, I got scared at just the thought of drawing it. As a side note, it would look more like a neural network than a tree.

The problem is that l'd have to name all the moves and techniques I can do (and the ones that only exist in my imagination), before I could have a hope of completing it.

It's going on my to do list.

In reply to 'the secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources' - it is more true to say that the secret to appearing creative is knowing how to hide your sources. But that's selfish rubbish.


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:I found an awesomely harsh quote in a book by Taschen:

"The danger is ever present of mistaking for creative talent what is only a gift for adroit imitation or a highly developed skill in compilation." Rem Koolhaas (or maybe Paul Hindemith)

That quote drags me back to reality....


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Originally Posted By: Danny_As a side note, it would look more like a neural network than a tree.

The problem is that l'd have to name all the moves and techniques I can do (and the ones that only exist in my imagination), before I could have a hope of completing it.

Hence the try.... tongue2

I might attempt something similar. But I think I can use your way of thinking about things to rationalise quite a lot of what I see. Thanks. smile

mcp: Good quote as well.


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

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DyamiTK
DyamiTK

beginner forever
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca
Member Since: 11th Mar 2008
Total posts: 159
Posted:Originally Posted By: Danny_I haven't properly considered drawing my tree. It would be quite a project, I got scared at just the thought of drawing it. As a side note, it would look more like a neural network than a tree.

The problem is that l'd have to name all the moves and techniques I can do (and the ones that only exist in my imagination), before I could have a hope of completing it.
Danny, we have been working on this. We have been researching mind map (tree) and wiki programs. As far as I know no one has already started a poi moves tree but we've got a list going on the Poi Theory of Everything. Interested in collaborating? I am going to go send you the log in information from the account.

EDITED_BY: DyamiTK (1242979934)


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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:I had a poi mind map in tree-shape a few years ago - was working on it when drew posted his families and things in...2003? It was already on A1 and nearly overflowing, and that was before many concepts now in use were even thought of. I might go and see if it is still in a box somewhere. it would be funny to see now, i think...

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:re megs quote;
there is much current debate over whether "a highly developed skill in compilation." IS actually a form of creativity.

A lot of the new media people are creating with, and some old media- music- being done in new forms- dissasembles all sorts of things; pulling tiny elements of them out,to make their palette or building blocks, then reassembling and combining into something new. But actually, the end creation is completely compliled from others material and sources. Only the act of comiling and reassembling is new.

At first i thought this kind of adroit compilation was not creative, in fact was a little cheeky cop out. But now, a decade or two later, particularly looking at what is being done with music, video cuts, and found object jewellery --i think it actually has become its own form of creation.A fascinating one, cause you can see history in it too!

Now i just am interested in how skillfully it is done, and does the sum of the parts add up to something more? If so, good art. Or dance, or poi...

Sorry if that is too much of a tangent you guys!


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:One thing that totally influenced my earlier years of training was unhinged emotional state!!
I found a intense relief from my crazy life and emotions by spinning an throwing my staffs,
the faster i spun my staffs and the higher i threw them the more relief i got,
i really felt i could totally express my dark angry negative side and turn it into something positive and (to me at least) beautiful.
Often after snorting far to much coke i would avoid parties full of people talking coked up nonsense and go out to my local park in the early hours of the morning, and spin for hours not caring about posture or technique or anything other than making myself feel better by waving and throwing my sticks around. This kind of deep and very personal self expression is what i consider to be my most artistic time of training.
When I was not coked up I would be less frantic but my ultimate goal was always to make myself feel better about my life and my craziness, it worked,
keep this to your selves but on a number off occasions i would have tears streaming down my face(totally sober) somehow the movements, repetition and expression i got from the staffs allowed me to feel extremely sad and extremely happy at the same time. Whilst the staffs didnt cure my drug and emotional issues on their own they certainly helped me to have more positive stuff in my life which gave me the strength to totally sort my head out.
The ego boost of being able to do cool dangerous looking stuff in front of my coked up mates was nice as well As I slowly sorted my head out and things changed, i met more jugglers and realised that i could make a living doing this weird thing i been taught by a hippy on a beach somewhere(bundy!), i also began to train to perform and trying to create tricks that were pleasing to watch as well as pleasing to execute.
Fortunately for me high throws and fast spinning is very entertaining so its seemed to me from early on i was onto a winner, i got great feedback from people who are still heroes of mine (Jago in particular) i now make my living from what you used to be a weird sort of therapy!
what i lost through that process ,(learning the basics of how to perform) was the deep crazy expressive places i could take myself to. I can sometimes mange to get the old craziness back but now im a happy chilled out type of a bloke i tend to get different less intense but equally pleasurable kind of high
When i perform my solo show now, i try very hard to express to my audiences a glimmer of the love i have for what i do and the phenomenal positive effect it has had on me,
i am obviously restricted by the same constraints as every other performer but if i can sneak a little bit of my soul into my shows then i feel great and people seem to love it. The best compliment people can give me is when they tell me they like watching my show because i clearly enjoy it as much as they do(even if sometimes im pretending cos im tired and would rather be in the pub wink

back up the thread to the workshops discussion, i agree there is nothing wrong with just wanting to learn a few tricks but i also agree it would be great if more people went on their own weird creative journey rather than learning lots of tricks of somebody else.
Personally i see peoples tricks as the biggest part of their style and then way they deliver them as a much smaller part of it.
Sorry for the bad englishy and the rant
You all smell of poo
Xxx
Xx
x


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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Damn, good thread. I especially like the title which describes the way I attempt to spin.

Get inspired by watching a video or reading a thread, then get creative by taking what I've learned and making it my own, so to speak.

I can't say that in the six years I've been spinning, that I've ever invented anything. Sure, I've come up with ways of doing or presenting a move and I've come up with quite a few "combos" but so far, everything's been driven strictly by inspiration.


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Konstantin
journeyman
Location: Vilnius
Member Since: 8th Jun 2007
Total posts: 66
Posted:My oppinion, it's not really worth to invent bysicle.
To think of something new you must have at some knowledge about what've been done before and then use it as a start point.


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:Originally Posted By: tim_marston
Personally i see peoples tricks as the biggest part of their style and then way they deliver them as a much smaller part of it.


Really? Cos I see style as the complete opposite. (And in fact further, but that's a topic in another thread.)


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:are you gonna start the new thred pleasee lass,
ima bit drunk


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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:it's in one of those threads about dance / movement or individuality, one of those. Might be on my dvd too, can't remember right now...

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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bls337
bls337

staff enthusiast
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Member Since: 20th Jun 2008
Total posts: 21
Posted:Is it even possible be a cookie cutter spinner? Maybe. It's really hard not to let your own style shine through. Even if you just stand in one place while doing ultra tech moves, you still have style.

Workshops and online tutorials are a great place to start. I don't think that they promote a generic style of spinning. Yeah sure they teach concepts like antispins, cateyes, isolations, etc that eveyone will be playing with. But the more people you introduce to a concept the more chance there is that they will take that concept and make it their own. Eventually the ideas that we consider technical today will become the bread and butter of spinning tomorrow. And with that the art advances as a whole.

Firedrums is a good example: you have all these amazing spinners sharing their art and next thing you know you see them again next year taking those same concepts that they learned last year and applying them in new and interesting ways.

Of course these are just frameworks for manipulating props. You can do whatever you like. Who cares? Have fun with it.

When it comes down to it, why wouldn't I learn how to do everything in the book? I don't think that you should limit yourself because your afraid of not being creative enough.

To me spinning about having fun.

EDITED_BY: bls337 (1243677083)


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