Forums > Social Discussion > Ban The Oil Trade
Login/Join to Participateenthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
The response to global warming has been pathetic. I think its mainly because people tend to learn best from anecdotal evidence and experience. A problem that we have never before experienced, understandable only through facts and figures poses a massive communication problem. People only really respond when they get emotional about an issue, how do you engage with people on an emotional level about an issue the effects of which are currently barely discernable?
My frustration boiled over and I did something quite out of character. I started a website, www.bantheoiltrade.com, to agitate for oil to be banned. All this talk of emission reduction makes people think they can switch their lightbulbs over and breathe a sigh of relief. It's not like that. We need to change the foundation of our economy, we need to stop burning oil one day and the sooner the better. We need to ban the oil trade.
I rented a billboard (12 Westminster Bridge Road, London till May 18th) and put "Global Warming is Intergenerational Genocide" on it in big black letters. It cost me £575.
I feel a bit ambivalent about all this. I'm acutely embarassed to be so far out of the mainstream but I read the scientific evidence extensively and it's very alarming.
The response to global warming has been pathetic. I think its mainly because people tend to learn best from anecdotal evidence and experience. A problem that we have never before experienced, understandable only through facts and figures poses a massive communication problem. People only really respond when they get emotional about an issue, how do you engage with people on an emotional level about an issue the effects of which are currently barely discernable?
My frustration boiled over and I did something quite out of character. I started a website, www.bantheoiltrade.com, to agitate for oil to be banned. All this talk of emission reduction makes people think they can switch their lightbulbs over and breathe a sigh of relief. It's not like that. We need to change the foundation of our economy, we need to stop burning oil one day and the sooner the better. We need to ban the oil trade.
I rented a billboard (12 Westminster Bridge Road, London till May 18th) and put "Global Warming is Intergenerational Genocide" on it in big black letters. It cost me £575.
I feel a bit ambivalent about all this. I'm acutely embarassed to be so far out of the mainstream but I read the scientific evidence extensively and it's very alarming.
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
There's a photo of the billboard here on my gallery here at HOP.
https://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=500&page=1
Comments welcome....
P.S. I'm aware that I'm out on a bit of a limb here
There's a photo of the billboard here on my gallery here at HOP.
https://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=500&page=1
Comments welcome....
P.S. I'm aware that I'm out on a bit of a limb here
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
GOLD Member
Introverted
833 posts
Location: Norf London, United Kingdom
Introverted
833 posts
Location: Norf London, United Kingdom
Posted:
Nice idea, but possibly a touch unrealistic. If the oil trade died tomorrow, what would happen? Our entire economy, and the whole of industrialised civilisation (if it can be called that) are based on the use of oil. What would happen if it vanished? No cars, no planes, no plastics, no transport to get food to the majority of the population, no transport to get medicine to hospitals, all the machinery that provides our hugely oversized population with water, electricity, and houses would stop being viable, and we'd have an emormous population of people who had NO IDEA this was going to happen. Result? Chaos, famine, societal collapse and general nastiness.
Now, fundamentally I TOTALLY agree that oil is bad, in a big way. But, I think the way forward is not by shock tactics, but by engaging people and communities, alerting them to the facts, and finding alternative ways to thrive. Oil is on the way out anyway (google "peak oil", or check out www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net ) , and I for one will not be sorry to see the back of industrial society. But we need to ween ourselves off it as a society, and educate people to the alternatives. The "Transistion Town" movement is what this is all about, and there are several really good sites / guides about how to deal with the aftermath of peak oil (whatever that may be), such as www.energybulletin.net, and the book "The Transition Handbook".
So, global warming is a huge problem, but as a race, oil dependency is a bigger problem, and it seems to me that the solution to both problems are the same. So, big props for drawing attention to the problem, but I also think that as much as things like this draw attention, I also think it's in the wrong way. Maybe a better way would be to show people the possible consequences, and to get them to realize that they've been taking things for granted and they need to stop and think.
Nice idea, but possibly a touch unrealistic. If the oil trade died tomorrow, what would happen? Our entire economy, and the whole of industrialised civilisation (if it can be called that) are based on the use of oil. What would happen if it vanished? No cars, no planes, no plastics, no transport to get food to the majority of the population, no transport to get medicine to hospitals, all the machinery that provides our hugely oversized population with water, electricity, and houses would stop being viable, and we'd have an emormous population of people who had NO IDEA this was going to happen. Result? Chaos, famine, societal collapse and general nastiness.
Now, fundamentally I TOTALLY agree that oil is bad, in a big way. But, I think the way forward is not by shock tactics, but by engaging people and communities, alerting them to the facts, and finding alternative ways to thrive. Oil is on the way out anyway (google "peak oil", or check out www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net ) , and I for one will not be sorry to see the back of industrial society. But we need to ween ourselves off it as a society, and educate people to the alternatives. The "Transistion Town" movement is what this is all about, and there are several really good sites / guides about how to deal with the aftermath of peak oil (whatever that may be), such as www.energybulletin.net, and the book "The Transition Handbook".
So, global warming is a huge problem, but as a race, oil dependency is a bigger problem, and it seems to me that the solution to both problems are the same. So, big props for drawing attention to the problem, but I also think that as much as things like this draw attention, I also think it's in the wrong way. Maybe a better way would be to show people the possible consequences, and to get them to realize that they've been taking things for granted and they need to stop and think.
My Mind is a Ship
Emotions become the Waves
Soul is the Ocean
If a quizz is quizzical, what is a test?
SILVER Member
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Geek
1,261 posts
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted:
I hate be the one to say it but its an absurd concept.
Our entire civilisation is built around our ability harness energy. As yet no way had been found to create a sustainable energy source that would allow us to give up oil (nowhere near). Thats not even considering how to live without plastics and other organic compounds we make from oil. Say goodbye to your Kevlar wicks.
The closest thing we have found to an good alternative energy source is either fission or fusion. Now, everyone seems to be opposed to fission (mainly because they dont understand it) and fusion is quite a long way off being viable (and even further off being commercially viable).
Doing away with oil suddenly would be as damaging to our species as global warming except we would start to see the effects within days instead of generations.
Now dont get me wrong, I'm all for using less oil and protecting the environment and I admire your passion but I think your cause is unrealistic and your efforts a little misguided. I'm sorry if I sound aggressive - I dont mean to. I just think that making unrealistic suggestions and demands is counter productive.
I hate be the one to say it but its an absurd concept.
Our entire civilisation is built around our ability harness energy. As yet no way had been found to create a sustainable energy source that would allow us to give up oil (nowhere near). Thats not even considering how to live without plastics and other organic compounds we make from oil. Say goodbye to your Kevlar wicks.
The closest thing we have found to an good alternative energy source is either fission or fusion. Now, everyone seems to be opposed to fission (mainly because they dont understand it) and fusion is quite a long way off being viable (and even further off being commercially viable).
Doing away with oil suddenly would be as damaging to our species as global warming except we would start to see the effects within days instead of generations.
Now dont get me wrong, I'm all for using less oil and protecting the environment and I admire your passion but I think your cause is unrealistic and your efforts a little misguided. I'm sorry if I sound aggressive - I dont mean to. I just think that making unrealistic suggestions and demands is counter productive.
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
Banning the oil trade is a long term aim. I never said we could this tomorrow or that it would be easy. It's something to aim for. It's explained more clearly here https://www.bantheoiltrade.com/quotas.html
In essence I favour a fossil fuel import quota system with tradeable quota's for fossil fuel import or extraction auctioned off annually. The quotas disseminated would be reduced year on year.
We can't just wait till we run out of oil and no we are not moving towards a future without oil in any meaningful way.
Banning the oil trade is a long term aim. I never said we could this tomorrow or that it would be easy. It's something to aim for. It's explained more clearly here https://www.bantheoiltrade.com/quotas.html
In essence I favour a fossil fuel import quota system with tradeable quota's for fossil fuel import or extraction auctioned off annually. The quotas disseminated would be reduced year on year.
We can't just wait till we run out of oil and no we are not moving towards a future without oil in any meaningful way.
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
dont focus on the negative of banning, focus on the positive of improving society through planning and technology.
DONT ban oil. MAKE oil obsolete.
dont focus on the negative of banning, focus on the positive of improving society through planning and technology.
DONT ban oil. MAKE oil obsolete.
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
We will never make oil obsolete while it continues to flow. The stuff is just too damn good. A technology that would be as useful as oil and non-polluting is almost unthinkable. Fusion could be part of an answer (you'd still have energy storage problems) but if your solution to global warming is to sit around and wait till fusion power arrives...........
When the future of the planet hangs in the balance you shouldn't make risky bets
The point is that the piecemeal approach of regulating minute aspects of the economy....lightbulbs, cars, renewable incentives is rather cosmetic. Government focus on planning and technology sounds good, as do the stream of initiatives, but if you look at the figures our emissions have barely budged (4.2% below 1990 levels in the U.K.) and even that modest success is an accident (It's due to the "Dash for Gas" when energy markets were deregulated and lots of fairly clean gas fired capacity was built by the free market with no incentives I might add).
We will never make oil obsolete while it continues to flow. The stuff is just too damn good. A technology that would be as useful as oil and non-polluting is almost unthinkable. Fusion could be part of an answer (you'd still have energy storage problems) but if your solution to global warming is to sit around and wait till fusion power arrives...........
When the future of the planet hangs in the balance you shouldn't make risky bets
The point is that the piecemeal approach of regulating minute aspects of the economy....lightbulbs, cars, renewable incentives is rather cosmetic. Government focus on planning and technology sounds good, as do the stream of initiatives, but if you look at the figures our emissions have barely budged (4.2% below 1990 levels in the U.K.) and even that modest success is an accident (It's due to the "Dash for Gas" when energy markets were deregulated and lots of fairly clean gas fired capacity was built by the free market with no incentives I might add).
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Mascot
When the future of the planet hangs in the balance you shouldn't make risky bets
you mean the future of humanity
Originally Posted By: Mascot
When the future of the planet hangs in the balance you shouldn't make risky bets
you mean the future of humanity
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
well said mr Majestic
The problem is our entire medical service is based on Oil, ban it and say good bye to your diabetic friends, asthmatics would then suffer severely before dying, most medicines either contain petrochemicals directly or they require them in the making process, Yes packaging can be made Eco friendly, and the transport system can be run on Hydrogen fuel.
If you want to go that way we may as well stop sending aid to third world countries like africa because if you cann't use oil you can't provide them with medical supplies or the industry to modernise. You can't ship things to them, package goods to them, can't make mosquito nets to protect them from diseases they can no longer have treatment to because oil is banned.
with all our global extelligence on the internet, when the lights go dark, how many know how to hunt, grow and build, how much knowledge will be lost forever (or until the oil reserves have built back up again in millions of years time)
I'm not scared for global warming, the planet will survive by killing off huge amounts of people if it needs to, it's survived hotter and colder than it is now, hell is was covered in methane and ash and still survived, there are several natural processes for cooling the earth one is the fact that we orbit on 3 cycles and at somepoint we'll be further from the sun than we are now, the planet won't die only people.
I'm more scared of the fact that when oil runs out, our whole way of life will be defunct in ways most people couldn't imagine, good healthcare - gone, clean water - gone (ironically because we fouled it then were left with no way to clean it.)
even solving the energy crisis, when oil runs out, so does our way of life, hydrocarbons aren't all about fuel and greenhouse gases. they are the basis of our whole civilisation.
well said mr Majestic
The problem is our entire medical service is based on Oil, ban it and say good bye to your diabetic friends, asthmatics would then suffer severely before dying, most medicines either contain petrochemicals directly or they require them in the making process, Yes packaging can be made Eco friendly, and the transport system can be run on Hydrogen fuel.
If you want to go that way we may as well stop sending aid to third world countries like africa because if you cann't use oil you can't provide them with medical supplies or the industry to modernise. You can't ship things to them, package goods to them, can't make mosquito nets to protect them from diseases they can no longer have treatment to because oil is banned.
with all our global extelligence on the internet, when the lights go dark, how many know how to hunt, grow and build, how much knowledge will be lost forever (or until the oil reserves have built back up again in millions of years time)
I'm not scared for global warming, the planet will survive by killing off huge amounts of people if it needs to, it's survived hotter and colder than it is now, hell is was covered in methane and ash and still survived, there are several natural processes for cooling the earth one is the fact that we orbit on 3 cycles and at somepoint we'll be further from the sun than we are now, the planet won't die only people.
I'm more scared of the fact that when oil runs out, our whole way of life will be defunct in ways most people couldn't imagine, good healthcare - gone, clean water - gone (ironically because we fouled it then were left with no way to clean it.)
even solving the energy crisis, when oil runs out, so does our way of life, hydrocarbons aren't all about fuel and greenhouse gases. they are the basis of our whole civilisation.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
yat daam - yee lek - saam gungfu
30 posts
30 posts
Posted:
I'm sorry I just do not believe in Global Warming, I have seen almost 0 real evidence that anything humans have done over the last 200 years could even begin to drasticly effect a planet thats been around billions of years. And every 'non political' scientific documentary and scientist I have seen/spoken to calls the evidence for Global Warming 'political psydo-science' and if even 1/2 the facts are looked at its pretty obvious to see that the Earth has been through many cycles of cooling and heating over the centuries and we are currently well within the limits of the pattern, even for the last few 100 years.
I dont think that planes and cars are good for the environment, but TAXING co2? Which plants breathe. Just seems to me to be stupid. This is just another example of humans image of self importance to me, when the main driving force behind 'global warming' is the Sun. And if you look at other planets in our solar system you'll see that other planets are warming too, was that our cars and planes too?
Now when the fact is that the Sun has been getting hotter for a long time, coupled with the oval shapped course the Earth takes around the sun, these to me provides enough evidence for the universal trends of heating and cooling at ALL planets go through. Without taxing everyone for breathing, coz you exhale Co2, or for every baby you have.
But in relation to Oil, I cant wait for it to run out. Humans will destroy each other one way or another, and for any reason they can rationalise. I just hope I'm around to see it. But the world will allways be around, and nothing we do will ever change that. It doesnt matter wot car you drive, or who you pay your carbon tax too.
I'll list you just a few alternative forms of energy that allready exist, but are not profitable enough to persue. In order of weakest to most powerful:
Wind
Wave
Solar
Geo-Thermal
These are all natural and endless sources of energy. But are not profitable enough to persue, you cant make a profit out of somthing that is limitless i.e. thats why u dont pay for air. But somthing that is running out (oil) will get more and more profitable. That is why these other methods will never be mainstream.
I'm sorry I just do not believe in Global Warming, I have seen almost 0 real evidence that anything humans have done over the last 200 years could even begin to drasticly effect a planet thats been around billions of years. And every 'non political' scientific documentary and scientist I have seen/spoken to calls the evidence for Global Warming 'political psydo-science' and if even 1/2 the facts are looked at its pretty obvious to see that the Earth has been through many cycles of cooling and heating over the centuries and we are currently well within the limits of the pattern, even for the last few 100 years.
I dont think that planes and cars are good for the environment, but TAXING co2? Which plants breathe. Just seems to me to be stupid. This is just another example of humans image of self importance to me, when the main driving force behind 'global warming' is the Sun. And if you look at other planets in our solar system you'll see that other planets are warming too, was that our cars and planes too?
Now when the fact is that the Sun has been getting hotter for a long time, coupled with the oval shapped course the Earth takes around the sun, these to me provides enough evidence for the universal trends of heating and cooling at ALL planets go through. Without taxing everyone for breathing, coz you exhale Co2, or for every baby you have.
But in relation to Oil, I cant wait for it to run out. Humans will destroy each other one way or another, and for any reason they can rationalise. I just hope I'm around to see it. But the world will allways be around, and nothing we do will ever change that. It doesnt matter wot car you drive, or who you pay your carbon tax too.
I'll list you just a few alternative forms of energy that allready exist, but are not profitable enough to persue. In order of weakest to most powerful:
Wind
Wave
Solar
Geo-Thermal
These are all natural and endless sources of energy. But are not profitable enough to persue, you cant make a profit out of somthing that is limitless i.e. thats why u dont pay for air. But somthing that is running out (oil) will get more and more profitable. That is why these other methods will never be mainstream.
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
I actually have no problem with the petro-chemical industry in general. Approximately 1/6 of the worlds oil is used as feedstock to make plastics, fertilisers, pesticides...e.t.c. One day we'll likely have to find other ways of doing this but worrying about that now is like pondering the chances that toxic vapours will slowly kill you as you chug poison by the gallon.
The point is we need to do without oil one day and the sooner we face this reality the better. 5/6 of all oil pumped is burnt for energy. I used oil as it's emblematic of our fossil fuel addiction. It's obviously impossible to jam this whole issue into a pithy slogan without making some generalisations.
When I said "ban the oil trade" I meant "phase out the burning of coal, oil and gas for energy over a fourty year period" but "ban the oil trade sounded better".
Can you imagine the rally if we used accurate slogans?
In Megaphone: "What do we want"
Crowd: "Significant emissions reductions"
Megaphone: "When do we want them?"
Crowd: "Phased in over a thirty year period"
If you want people to get motivated or care about something you have to appeal emotionaly. It's really REALLY hard to get people to care about global warming.
EDITED_BY: Mascot (1242136128)
I actually have no problem with the petro-chemical industry in general. Approximately 1/6 of the worlds oil is used as feedstock to make plastics, fertilisers, pesticides...e.t.c. One day we'll likely have to find other ways of doing this but worrying about that now is like pondering the chances that toxic vapours will slowly kill you as you chug poison by the gallon.
The point is we need to do without oil one day and the sooner we face this reality the better. 5/6 of all oil pumped is burnt for energy. I used oil as it's emblematic of our fossil fuel addiction. It's obviously impossible to jam this whole issue into a pithy slogan without making some generalisations.
When I said "ban the oil trade" I meant "phase out the burning of coal, oil and gas for energy over a fourty year period" but "ban the oil trade sounded better".
Can you imagine the rally if we used accurate slogans?
In Megaphone: "What do we want"
Crowd: "Significant emissions reductions"
Megaphone: "When do we want them?"
Crowd: "Phased in over a thirty year period"
If you want people to get motivated or care about something you have to appeal emotionaly. It's really REALLY hard to get people to care about global warming.
EDITED_BY: Mascot (1242136128)
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
YOU!!!!
I've known you for aaaages, but never knew you we4re "Mascot"
D'oh!
YOU!!!!
I've known you for aaaages, but never knew you we4re "Mascot"
D'oh!
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Mascot
If you want people to get motivated or care about something you have to appeal emotionaly. It's really REALLY hard to get people to care about global warming.
Yep, that pretty much nails it right there.
I can't say I support the ban the oil trade slogan because IMO the goal here is to educate people as to their individual contributions to GW vis their use of fossil fuels and calling for a ban reads more like the idea is to force people out of their lifestyles rather than to 'educate" them to make the "right" choice.
I do like the "Global Warming is Intergenerational Genocide" slogan though. Awsome appeal to emotion and unless you're a hardcore GW denier, it's an impossible statement to refute.
Good on ya for taking on this solo project
Originally Posted By: Mascot
If you want people to get motivated or care about something you have to appeal emotionaly. It's really REALLY hard to get people to care about global warming.
Yep, that pretty much nails it right there.
I can't say I support the ban the oil trade slogan because IMO the goal here is to educate people as to their individual contributions to GW vis their use of fossil fuels and calling for a ban reads more like the idea is to force people out of their lifestyles rather than to 'educate" them to make the "right" choice.
I do like the "Global Warming is Intergenerational Genocide" slogan though. Awsome appeal to emotion and unless you're a hardcore GW denier, it's an impossible statement to refute.
Good on ya for taking on this solo project
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
Good on ya Mascot.
And to the rest of you who cant imagine life without oil - consider instead of cutting it out, you just reduced our use of it down by 90% - I'd say that with a significant economic restructuring, it would be possible for us to maintain our quality of life (or even improve it), but drastically reduce our use of oil, with a view of cutting it out all together in the long term.
New Scientist ran an article recently on how we could cut oil out of the equation all toegther - it was fairly radical, but it certainly would be possible.
What we need now is a benevolent dictator to just tell us what we should be doing - cuz most people are too in debt (financially, spiritually and intellectually) to oil to act out of the box.
Good on ya Mascot.
And to the rest of you who cant imagine life without oil - consider instead of cutting it out, you just reduced our use of it down by 90% - I'd say that with a significant economic restructuring, it would be possible for us to maintain our quality of life (or even improve it), but drastically reduce our use of oil, with a view of cutting it out all together in the long term.
New Scientist ran an article recently on how we could cut oil out of the equation all toegther - it was fairly radical, but it certainly would be possible.
What we need now is a benevolent dictator to just tell us what we should be doing - cuz most people are too in debt (financially, spiritually and intellectually) to oil to act out of the box.
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
I agree we are addicted to oil, but the initial statement by Mascot and her later one have me confused, Why complain about changes in lightbulbs initially if you taking a 40 year stance. to change pyscologically you don't have to (and most won't) change in 1 big step. Lightbulbs today, advances in Hydrogen fuel technology being made, awareness beinig raised. it may be too slow for some, but it will take a couple of generations. it's easier to change the minds of the young than the old. before any real change occurs it will be our children making decisions, it may seem too late now but that's how it will happen. the fact that "peak oil approaches" means nothing to people who weren't taught about it in school (meaning the majority) they get soundbites on the news and start to recycle and use different bulbs and assume everything is fine because there are bigger stories in the news. kids today are hopefully being taught better.
I agree we are addicted to oil, but the initial statement by Mascot and her later one have me confused, Why complain about changes in lightbulbs initially if you taking a 40 year stance. to change pyscologically you don't have to (and most won't) change in 1 big step. Lightbulbs today, advances in Hydrogen fuel technology being made, awareness beinig raised. it may be too slow for some, but it will take a couple of generations. it's easier to change the minds of the young than the old. before any real change occurs it will be our children making decisions, it may seem too late now but that's how it will happen. the fact that "peak oil approaches" means nothing to people who weren't taught about it in school (meaning the majority) they get soundbites on the news and start to recycle and use different bulbs and assume everything is fine because there are bigger stories in the news. kids today are hopefully being taught better.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
^^^^ very good points Mynci
^^^^ very good points Mynci
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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
BRONZE Member
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)
nut.
756 posts
Location: Bouncing off the walls., England (UK)
Posted:
Hm, got to be careful simplifying a message to the extent that people hear/see it and think 'right, unrealistic'..
It can make people who actually would agree with what you're really trying to achieve switch off- I read 'Ban the Oil Trade' and expected an idealistic rant about how we should all be living in huts made of reeds and only eating what we grow ourselves.. which very few sane people are going to be persuaded to do by a billboard.
Hm, got to be careful simplifying a message to the extent that people hear/see it and think 'right, unrealistic'..
It can make people who actually would agree with what you're really trying to achieve switch off- I read 'Ban the Oil Trade' and expected an idealistic rant about how we should all be living in huts made of reeds and only eating what we grow ourselves.. which very few sane people are going to be persuaded to do by a billboard.
THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH!
If that's okay with you?
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
I agree
essentially without an oil replacement when peak oil hits we'll probably find ourselves very over populated. UK no longer has the agriculture to feed itself (an ideal after the war that didn't last long) meaning oil replacement would be required to ship everything in. without it we would have to revert back (As Hamamelis said) to something more akin to pre-industrialised ways of thinking and living. I don't think it'll be grow your own food, communities will still be viable I think the biggest problem we have isn't oil, global warming or anything like that, it's plain over-population. if we had less people, the oil use wouldn't be such an issue, the planet can cope with increased levels of CO2 or oil use up to a critical point. which I think we passed years ago.
I agree
essentially without an oil replacement when peak oil hits we'll probably find ourselves very over populated. UK no longer has the agriculture to feed itself (an ideal after the war that didn't last long) meaning oil replacement would be required to ship everything in. without it we would have to revert back (As Hamamelis said) to something more akin to pre-industrialised ways of thinking and living. I don't think it'll be grow your own food, communities will still be viable I think the biggest problem we have isn't oil, global warming or anything like that, it's plain over-population. if we had less people, the oil use wouldn't be such an issue, the planet can cope with increased levels of CO2 or oil use up to a critical point. which I think we passed years ago.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
I used to think that peak oil would force us to mend our polluting ways and move to cleaner technologies
I now believe I was mistaken. Under the current regulatory framework when we begin to run out of oil we will move on to dirtier fossil fuels, "unconventional" oil from tar sands and coal liquefaction technologies. Peak oil will raise, not lower, our carbon dioxide emissions. The world is not running out of fossil fuels, just oil.
Mynci said I was ridiculing lightbulbs but taking a 40 year planning horizon. Our current incrementalist approach is not going to remove oil from our economy EVER. Even in industrialised countries emissions are still increasing. So long as it is legal to purchase and burn oil some people will choose to do so. The key point is that the ammount of oil we burned is constrained by supply and not demand so measures to reduce demand have little impact, we need to reduce supply. Regrettably "educating people about their personal contribution" is nowhere near sufficient.
We burn as much oil as we can pump out of the ground, if we want to burn less oil it's no good getting a Prius as we will still burn all the oil we can pump.
If we want to burn less oil we need to leave it in the ground.
I used to think that peak oil would force us to mend our polluting ways and move to cleaner technologies
I now believe I was mistaken. Under the current regulatory framework when we begin to run out of oil we will move on to dirtier fossil fuels, "unconventional" oil from tar sands and coal liquefaction technologies. Peak oil will raise, not lower, our carbon dioxide emissions. The world is not running out of fossil fuels, just oil.
Mynci said I was ridiculing lightbulbs but taking a 40 year planning horizon. Our current incrementalist approach is not going to remove oil from our economy EVER. Even in industrialised countries emissions are still increasing. So long as it is legal to purchase and burn oil some people will choose to do so. The key point is that the ammount of oil we burned is constrained by supply and not demand so measures to reduce demand have little impact, we need to reduce supply. Regrettably "educating people about their personal contribution" is nowhere near sufficient.
We burn as much oil as we can pump out of the ground, if we want to burn less oil it's no good getting a Prius as we will still burn all the oil we can pump.
If we want to burn less oil we need to leave it in the ground.
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
mmm I think the other point is that only a small percentage of oil burned (IIRC) is burned by regular people - the vast majority goes into business related transport and other products.
I think a big part of the problem is the mentality that the only people that can make a difference are the end-of-the-line consumers, who are constantly being told they are the problem, while business seems to escape with none of the guilt even though it is responsible for the vast majority of consumption.
mmm I think the other point is that only a small percentage of oil burned (IIRC) is burned by regular people - the vast majority goes into business related transport and other products.
I think a big part of the problem is the mentality that the only people that can make a difference are the end-of-the-line consumers, who are constantly being told they are the problem, while business seems to escape with none of the guilt even though it is responsible for the vast majority of consumption.
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Oil is only one aspect of the Global Warming (Climate Change for the sceptics) debate.
And it’s one thing to point the finger at oil consumption, but I’m left wondering how many people would consider giving up eating meat to reduce emissions.
Oil is only one aspect of the Global Warming (Climate Change for the sceptics) debate.
And it’s one thing to point the finger at oil consumption, but I’m left wondering how many people would consider giving up eating meat to reduce emissions.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
Hey Stone! great to hear from you!
I reckon giving up meat would be way easier than reducing fossil fuel dependence.
J
Hey Stone! great to hear from you!
I reckon giving up meat would be way easier than reducing fossil fuel dependence.
J
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
so all the iron deficient people can just munch down pills made in a factory using oil? eating red meats as frequently as fish and vegetarian would be a more appropriate step imo.
slightly off topic, but in the budget announcement here the gov. are going to build a solar power factory capable of generating as much energy as a coal powered station... they are also going to build two 'clean coal' stations. 'clean coal' is the biggest load of ship PR campaign ever invented. why not just make three solar stations?
so all the iron deficient people can just munch down pills made in a factory using oil? eating red meats as frequently as fish and vegetarian would be a more appropriate step imo.
slightly off topic, but in the budget announcement here the gov. are going to build a solar power factory capable of generating as much energy as a coal powered station... they are also going to build two 'clean coal' stations. 'clean coal' is the biggest load of ship PR campaign ever invented. why not just make three solar stations?
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
Originally Posted By: Pyrolificmmm I think the other point is that only a small percentage of oil burned (IIRC) is burned by regular people - the vast majority goes into business related transport and other products.
I think a big part of the problem is the mentality that the only people that can make a difference are the end-of-the-line consumers, who are constantly being told they are the problem, while business seems to escape with none of the guilt even though it is responsible for the vast majority of consumption.
business doenst feel guilt i agree - because business, by definition is about money - but that means they give a sh*tload more thought to oil than the average householder.
to give a perspective from industry, well at least in oz, most companies in oil/gas, petrochem, mining, chemicals etc etc do their best to minimise fuel consumption, water consumption, maximise efficiency etc - because you can save in ridiculous amount of operating capital. energy isnt cheap anymore, and will make or break a project.
we may look at a power bill every 3 months and think [censored]! $300 - thats higher than last quarter - but ill pay it and keep on trucking. an overly large power bill in industry can kill a plant.
i completely agree being the largest consumers they have the largest impact, therefore the greatest responsability.
but working in engineering now, ive seen infinitely more awareness in the big industries to energy savings that in an average household - because it comes down to money.
on a household level to be power efficient unfortunately requires alot of capital for long term savings that only come about after a decade. and hey - use a bit too much power - not the end of the world! on a personal level we are not prepared to sacrifice our lifestyle. we fly to firetwirling conventions, we buy and freight stuff from the HoP shop, we love the cheap china-made imported plastic sh*t that fills our shelves, we turn of 3 light bulbs then have a hot bath - this is turning in to a somewhat enviromentally aligned 'fight club-esque' soliloquay about the world so ill stop there....
buying sustainable, organic, local made etc cost money! and also - people are largely ignorant of where products come from. you think that buying a toyota prius gives you the permission so be an enviromentally smug prat? hell. what i could tell you about the 10kg of cobalt in your car battery... but thats another topic.
on an industrial scale - the savings of cutting down utilities is a completely different level. i work in design of large mining plants (yeah curse me hippies if you like - but were the f*ck do your think your aluminium staves and kombi vans come from) where the concept of cutting power consumption by 10% is tens of millions of dollars. theres no sacrifice in personal lifestyle - and the client always like to save money!
note - we're only talking about oil consumption so ive limited this rant to that. industrial disposal of effluent and other ills are and entirely different topic i have very different view on.
A somewhat, and unfortunately cynical viewpoint, after working in mining and petrochemicals, and understand exactly the quantities of waste, energy, pollution involved in each of them, is that human only act according to money. we save energy only when it suits is from the economical perspective, and lifestyle perspective to do so.
sure this is a sweeping generalisation across humanity. many people on this board, including myself, feel different from this stereotype about the importance of preserving the plant, but alas people are hard to change.
forgive my cynism people, but itll take a hell of a lot more that a billboard and a badly formatted website to change peoples minds.
(mascot - have lots of comments about your website being more user friendly if youd like to hear. i dont completely agree with the practicality of your views, but admire your dedication to the cause)
peace out
D
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1242323518)
Originally Posted By: Pyrolificmmm I think the other point is that only a small percentage of oil burned (IIRC) is burned by regular people - the vast majority goes into business related transport and other products.
I think a big part of the problem is the mentality that the only people that can make a difference are the end-of-the-line consumers, who are constantly being told they are the problem, while business seems to escape with none of the guilt even though it is responsible for the vast majority of consumption.
business doenst feel guilt i agree - because business, by definition is about money - but that means they give a sh*tload more thought to oil than the average householder.
to give a perspective from industry, well at least in oz, most companies in oil/gas, petrochem, mining, chemicals etc etc do their best to minimise fuel consumption, water consumption, maximise efficiency etc - because you can save in ridiculous amount of operating capital. energy isnt cheap anymore, and will make or break a project.
we may look at a power bill every 3 months and think [censored]! $300 - thats higher than last quarter - but ill pay it and keep on trucking. an overly large power bill in industry can kill a plant.
i completely agree being the largest consumers they have the largest impact, therefore the greatest responsability.
but working in engineering now, ive seen infinitely more awareness in the big industries to energy savings that in an average household - because it comes down to money.
on a household level to be power efficient unfortunately requires alot of capital for long term savings that only come about after a decade. and hey - use a bit too much power - not the end of the world! on a personal level we are not prepared to sacrifice our lifestyle. we fly to firetwirling conventions, we buy and freight stuff from the HoP shop, we love the cheap china-made imported plastic sh*t that fills our shelves, we turn of 3 light bulbs then have a hot bath - this is turning in to a somewhat enviromentally aligned 'fight club-esque' soliloquay about the world so ill stop there....
buying sustainable, organic, local made etc cost money! and also - people are largely ignorant of where products come from. you think that buying a toyota prius gives you the permission so be an enviromentally smug prat? hell. what i could tell you about the 10kg of cobalt in your car battery... but thats another topic.
on an industrial scale - the savings of cutting down utilities is a completely different level. i work in design of large mining plants (yeah curse me hippies if you like - but were the f*ck do your think your aluminium staves and kombi vans come from) where the concept of cutting power consumption by 10% is tens of millions of dollars. theres no sacrifice in personal lifestyle - and the client always like to save money!
note - we're only talking about oil consumption so ive limited this rant to that. industrial disposal of effluent and other ills are and entirely different topic i have very different view on.
A somewhat, and unfortunately cynical viewpoint, after working in mining and petrochemicals, and understand exactly the quantities of waste, energy, pollution involved in each of them, is that human only act according to money. we save energy only when it suits is from the economical perspective, and lifestyle perspective to do so.
sure this is a sweeping generalisation across humanity. many people on this board, including myself, feel different from this stereotype about the importance of preserving the plant, but alas people are hard to change.
forgive my cynism people, but itll take a hell of a lot more that a billboard and a badly formatted website to change peoples minds.
(mascot - have lots of comments about your website being more user friendly if youd like to hear. i dont completely agree with the practicality of your views, but admire your dedication to the cause)
peace out
D
EDITED_BY: Dentrassi (1242323518)
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Hi Pyro,
I’m not sure not everyone would agree about the meat. Most people aren’t prepared to give up anything. So, perhaps this is just as much about people change, as climate change. Cheers.
Majestik, plenty of iron in the Pilbara. And hey, I’d have to disagree about the budget. The Labour party has really reneged on many of their election promises to reduce carbon emissions.
Dentrassi, I’m sure my aluminium staves come for recycled VB cans
Have a good one
Hi Pyro,
I’m not sure not everyone would agree about the meat. Most people aren’t prepared to give up anything. So, perhaps this is just as much about people change, as climate change. Cheers.
Majestik, plenty of iron in the Pilbara. And hey, I’d have to disagree about the budget. The Labour party has really reneged on many of their election promises to reduce carbon emissions.
Dentrassi, I’m sure my aluminium staves come for recycled VB cans
Have a good one
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
Good call Dentrassi. Several times I've been verbally attacked for having the temerity to work in the mining industry. ooh, if only the rest of the world had to go through the environmental/safety/cultural heritage gumph we have to.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it now; asking people to make major changes is not going to happen because there's nothing that they can see will benefit them. "The Environment" is a wooly concept which frankly, a lot of people don't care about, however, the *local* environment is something they do. So put it like "recycle and it means there won't be glass on the beach for your kids to cut their feet on" rather than "recycle as it takes 1/5 the energy to produce a new bottle" and it will be applied.
I spend a fair amount of time in Papua New Guinea working on a major gold mine, the locals are pretty grubby when it comes to the plastic containers their lunch comes in, so my Austrailian-raised Papuan friend and I went around to them saying "you know, if you take those home and wash them, you can store your food in them and the ants won't eat it". It was a hell of a lot more effctive than saying "don't chuck those in the ocean as a turtle somewhere will choke."
Good call Dentrassi. Several times I've been verbally attacked for having the temerity to work in the mining industry. ooh, if only the rest of the world had to go through the environmental/safety/cultural heritage gumph we have to.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it now; asking people to make major changes is not going to happen because there's nothing that they can see will benefit them. "The Environment" is a wooly concept which frankly, a lot of people don't care about, however, the *local* environment is something they do. So put it like "recycle and it means there won't be glass on the beach for your kids to cut their feet on" rather than "recycle as it takes 1/5 the energy to produce a new bottle" and it will be applied.
I spend a fair amount of time in Papua New Guinea working on a major gold mine, the locals are pretty grubby when it comes to the plastic containers their lunch comes in, so my Austrailian-raised Papuan friend and I went around to them saying "you know, if you take those home and wash them, you can store your food in them and the ants won't eat it". It was a hell of a lot more effctive than saying "don't chuck those in the ocean as a turtle somewhere will choke."
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
may seem an odd question, but I want to look at this using a specific veiw point, WHY do we need to ban oil? and if the answer is global warming, why do we need to stop it? I've done some basic searches in google with the question "why do we need to stop global warming?" guess what I got...
How to stop global warming
how we can stop global warming
what to do to stop global warming
I found 1 site with the title "why" and it was a philosopher's experiment routing out possible scenarios for varying responses to questions, like a logarithm, there was no actual reason. (I admit that some of the other sites contained a reason why and the ones I saw validate my point).
The truth is global warming will probably SAVE the planet, we have a massive egocentric thought process that thinks of the planet as humans. We can't destroy the planet (unless we try REALLY hard, with the specific goal in mind), we can only destroy ourselves (humankind) and we seem to relish doing that anyway, what point to stop global warming if we continue to destroy ourselves with wars, murder and other acts of petty malcontention. do we deserve to be saved as a species? we've killed enough off, or altered ecosystems to fit OUR needs. I say let global warming happen and teach ourselves a lesson. we need a massive act of depopulisation anyway and this could save us declaring war and possible nuclear activity.
The only surity of global warming is it will effect humans badly, yes species may become extinct, but they've been doing that for years and seem to be doing OK for all of that. In fact Biodiversity flourishes after catastrophic events due to the extra space, it's what pushed nature to create us in the first place. Humans only chance of survival is to escape the earth and colonise elsewhere and for that you can bet we'll need oil (even as just a starting point) because you can bet a comet, asteroid, or major volcanic upheaval will come along eventually, all we're doing is trying to hold on by our fingernails to the lifestyle we currently have for a little bit longer.
It is this very selfish act that epitomises humanity and makes me laugh at "selfless environmental advocates" when what they truely are is "selfish human survivalist". why do we deserve to be saved more than anything else?
may seem an odd question, but I want to look at this using a specific veiw point, WHY do we need to ban oil? and if the answer is global warming, why do we need to stop it? I've done some basic searches in google with the question "why do we need to stop global warming?" guess what I got...
How to stop global warming
how we can stop global warming
what to do to stop global warming
I found 1 site with the title "why" and it was a philosopher's experiment routing out possible scenarios for varying responses to questions, like a logarithm, there was no actual reason. (I admit that some of the other sites contained a reason why and the ones I saw validate my point).
The truth is global warming will probably SAVE the planet, we have a massive egocentric thought process that thinks of the planet as humans. We can't destroy the planet (unless we try REALLY hard, with the specific goal in mind), we can only destroy ourselves (humankind) and we seem to relish doing that anyway, what point to stop global warming if we continue to destroy ourselves with wars, murder and other acts of petty malcontention. do we deserve to be saved as a species? we've killed enough off, or altered ecosystems to fit OUR needs. I say let global warming happen and teach ourselves a lesson. we need a massive act of depopulisation anyway and this could save us declaring war and possible nuclear activity.
The only surity of global warming is it will effect humans badly, yes species may become extinct, but they've been doing that for years and seem to be doing OK for all of that. In fact Biodiversity flourishes after catastrophic events due to the extra space, it's what pushed nature to create us in the first place. Humans only chance of survival is to escape the earth and colonise elsewhere and for that you can bet we'll need oil (even as just a starting point) because you can bet a comet, asteroid, or major volcanic upheaval will come along eventually, all we're doing is trying to hold on by our fingernails to the lifestyle we currently have for a little bit longer.
It is this very selfish act that epitomises humanity and makes me laugh at "selfless environmental advocates" when what they truely are is "selfish human survivalist". why do we deserve to be saved more than anything else?
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
oui
oui
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
OK so the above was a bit of a rant, but I was feeling grumpy
OK so the above was a bit of a rant, but I was feeling grumpy
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
no no i like it
may i suggest you watch Nausicaa of The Valley of The Wind by hayayo Miazaki (Studio Ghibli) is you havent done so already?
no no i like it
may i suggest you watch Nausicaa of The Valley of The Wind by hayayo Miazaki (Studio Ghibli) is you havent done so already?
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
I haven't so I shall try and find it.
Cheers dude, sometimes I think people will not approve of many of my less humane thoughts like above. But in all honesty I'm not a massive fan of people, especially when I'm at work.
I haven't so I shall try and find it.
Cheers dude, sometimes I think people will not approve of many of my less humane thoughts like above. But in all honesty I'm not a massive fan of people, especially when I'm at work.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
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